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The Kingsguard "Dream Team"


Valens

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The Mad King really had the best Kingsguard ever: Sword of the Morning Dayne, Barristan the Bold, Blackfish Tully, White Bull Hightower, Oswell Whent, Lewyn Martell, Jaime Lannister, Jonothor Darry. Wait...Blackfish was not in the Kingsguard, was he? Doesn't matter. he still fought in Aerys' service. Aerys had the best warriors anyway, of all Targ kings.

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Blackfish overhype aside, he was in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, where he did fight on the same side as Aerys, but during Robert's Rebellion he was on the rebels' side as part of Jon Arryn's retinue. He took service with Jon Arryn on the day he married Lysa, and according to a the Wilki the World Book says that he did some fighting, but I can't find a quote to back it up.

Aerys' Kingsguard:

Gerold Hightower - Was renowned, sure, but so are a bunch of other knights. Not one of the greatest swordsmen.

Lewyn Martell - Renowned mainly for being the brother of, not for any note-worthy skill at arms. 

Barristan Selmy - One of the greatests swordsmen, I agree.

Arthur Dayne - One of the greatest swordsmen, I agree.

Jonothor Darry - Not particularly renowned for anything.

Harlan Grandison - Was on Aerys' KG before he died in his sleep of old age. Not particularly renowned for anything.

Jaime Lannister - One of the greatest swordsmen, I agree, but 16 year old Jaime was not as good as later, two handed Jaime. 

Gwayne Gaunt -  Was on Aerys' KG before he died during the Defiance of Duskendale. Not particularly renowned for anything.

Oswell Whent - Not particularly renowned for anything aside of his dark humor. 

 

Overall we only have 4 big names here. One name was a KG purely because he was the brother of the Princess of Dorne, and the rest are not of any particular renown.

Compared with the earlier Kingsguards we have little chance to compare because they usually lack a full roster, or even a full list of feats. So saying that he had the best of all Targ kings is a bit much here without more information. Aegon I's was probably the strongest, considering that the first 7 were likely the best in the land at the time.

Compared with the later Kingsguards of Robert, Joffrey and Tommen we have Jaime and Barristan again. To those we add strong candidates like:

Mandon Moore - Was considered by Jaime to be the second most dangerous of the Kingsguard after himself. While Barristan was still the Lord Commander. He displayed why on the Blackwater.

Sandor Clegane - 'nough said.

Balon Swann - Also displayed why he was KG worthy on the Blackwater, where he and Moore were the two white shadows protecting Tyrion is a white dance of death on the burning bridge of ships in a deadly tandem.

Loras Tyrell - At the time of the books, ranked 6 deadliest fighter by GRRM after individuals such as Barristan, Jaime, and his own brother Garlan. Sandor and Gregor likely take the other two places. 

 

So Aerys had 4 of the most renowned fighters of the day in his KG, while Robert, Joffrey and Tommen had an average of 3 (Balon and Sandor were after Barristan left, making Joffrey's KG complete with 4 of the greatest of his age for a short while). 

Empirically speaking, The later KG had about the same level of noteworthy swordsmen in it's ranks. If we are talking about worthy knights, Aerys' had none aside of maybe Jaime. The rest were following a mandman all the way and only had the appearance of being worthy knights. This "good old days" is an intentional trope used by GRRM here, and people selectively rememvering only the good bits. Sort of like today people think that the 80's or 70's or 60's is where all the good music was, when if you look at the popular charts from back then so much of it was shit. 

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16 hours ago, Valens said:

The Mad King really had the best Kingsguard ever: Sword of the Morning Dayne, Barristan the Bold, Blackfish Tully, White Bull Hightower, Oswell Whent, Lewyn Martell, Jaime Lannister, Jonothor Darry. Wait...Blackfish was not in the Kingsguard, was he? Doesn't matter. he still fought in Aerys' service. Aerys had the best warriors anyway, of all Targ kings.

Aerys did not have Symeon Star Eyes or The last hero so he in fact did not have the best warriors. 

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19 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

Empirically speaking, The later KG had about the same level of noteworthy swordsmen in it's ranks. If we are talking about worthy knights, Aerys' had none aside of maybe Jaime. The rest were following a mandman all the way and only had the appearance of being worthy knights. This "good old days" is an intentional trope used by GRRM here, and people selectively remembering only the good bits. Sort of like today people think that the 80's or 70's or 60's is where all the good music was, when if you look at the popular charts from back then so much of it was shit. 

Agreed. GRRM sets this theme up pretty clearly in the books, so it's strange seeing the Mad King's Kingsguard worshiped so much. If we're judging individuals based on their biggest lapses then Dayne, Barristan, Hightower, etc. were monsters who willingly watched all of Aerys' depravities and did nothing. Jaime did the right thing and is absolutely justified in his bitterness.

With that said, Meryn Trant and Boros Blount are definitely set up as dolts throughout their KG tenure. In universe, guys like Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent and Prince Lewin are probably remembered more fondly for good reason, and even though everyone recognized that Mandon Moore was a good fighter, nobody ever spoke positively of him as a person and in literally every conversation he has in the books he is either justifying shitty behavior or just generally treating people like shit.

That doesn't, however, justify this notion that everything today is worse than it was yesterday (in real life or ASOIAF). Barristan's thoughts on the Kingsguard in A Dance with Dragons are pretty on point:

Quote

Some had been heroes, some weaklings, knaves, or cravens. Most were only men-quicker and stronger than most, more skilled with sword and shield, but still prey to pride, ambition, lust, love, anger, jealousy, greed for gold, hunger for power, and all the other failings that afflicted lesser mortals. The best of them overcame their flaws, did their duty, and died with their swords in their hands.

 

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This kind of brings up a question of the evolution of the Kingsguard.  After all Aerys puts Jaime on the KG not becsuse he thinks he's a great fighter but because he wants to take away Tywin's heir.  Loras is on the protect Maegery not Joffrey.  Some of these "elite Knights" are intimidated by Bronn, a sell sword.  They serve for life which, in high casualty days may be a good idea but what good would a 70 year old knight who needs a cane to walk really be as a bodyguard?  So the question is had the KG become largely Ceremonial? 

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8 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

This kind of brings up a question of the evolution of the Kingsguard.  After all Aerys puts Jaime on the KG not becsuse he thinks he's a great fighter but because he wants to take away Tywin's heir.  Loras is on the protect Maegery not Joffrey.  Some of these "elite Knights" are intimidated by Bronn, a sell sword.  They serve for life which, in high casualty days may be a good idea but what good would a 70 year old knight who needs a cane to walk really be as a bodyguard?  So the question is had the KG become largely Ceremonial? 

You're missing the point of the above quote from Barristan. There have been good Kingsguards and there have been plenty of shitty Kingsguards throughout history too. Political appointments are not a recent occurrence and have been happening since it's inception. Even then, what constitutes a good Kingsguard? Arthur Dayne is remembered as a shining beacon of purity, but he stood by and let Aerys burn people alive.

And Mandon Moore backed down from both Bronn and Timett. Moore would have murdered Bronn in a one-on-one fight.

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2 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

You're missing the point of the above quote from Barristan. There have been good Kingsguards and there have been plenty of shitty Kingsguards throughout history too. Political appointments are not a recent occurrence and have been happening since it's inception. Even then, what constitutes a good Kingsguard? Arthur Dayne is remembered as a shining beacon of purity, but he stood by and let Aerys burn people alive.

And Mandon Moore backed down from both Bronn and Timett. Moore would have murdered Bronn in a one-on-one fight.

How am I missing the point?  I'm not even posting about Barry's quote.   And so superannuated guards aren't a liability of the system? 

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3 hours ago, Valens said:

Their moral stains aside, the point remains: BARRISTAN AND ARTHUR, no other Targaryen king had such great knights and warriors, TWO of them. Discussion ended. Plus Jaime Lannister, young as he may have been, he was still a demon with a sword.

Not knowing about the overwhelming majority of the past knights of the Kingsguard does not make Aerys' Kingsguard with 2 top tier, one promising teen, and another renowned knight the best that ever was, and you certainly can't say that no one ever had such knights when we know of several who were.

Viserys I had both Ryam Redwyne - by word of auther the best knight of his day, and Criston Cole, another renowned knight with feats of his prowess. Jaehaerys I had Ryam and Clement Crabb, another renowned knight. Duncan the Tall has books dedicated to his legend, the Dragonknight is repeatedly claimed to be the best knight to ever live, and Gwayne Corbray took on Daemon Blackfyre for an hour - the same guy who with the sword which he named himself after was "like the Warrior himself".

There were several well-known knights in the Kingsguard. Selmy and Dayne are by no means the best that ever were or will be.

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4 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

Not knowing about the overwhelming majority of the past knights of the Kingsguard does not make Aerys' Kingsguard with 2 top tier, one promising teen, and another renowned knight the best that ever was, and you certainly can't say that no one ever had such knights when we know of several who were.

Viserys I had both Ryam Redwyne - by word of auther the best knight of his day, and Criston Cole, another renowned knight with feats of his prowess. Jaehaerys I had Ryam and Clement Crabb, another renowned knight. Duncan the Tall has books dedicated to his legend, the Dragonknight is repeatedly claimed to be the best knight to ever live, and Gwayne Corbray took on Daemon Blackfyre for an hour - the same guy who with the sword which he named himself after was "like the Warrior himself".

There were several well-known knights in the Kingsguard. Selmy and Dayne are by no means the best that ever were or will be.

WRONG! They are. ;) Selmy beat Maelys the Monstrous, who was a menace on battlefield and slew Ormund Baratheon before Barristan slew him. He was after all, a Blackfyre. Dayne slew the Smiling Knight, who was said to be damn near invincible. Criston Cole was a formidable fighter, but who did he slay that equalled these guys? Same with the others. Duncan the Tall was a good fighter, but not that skilled with all weapons and in the beginning he hardly knew how to fight like a knight.

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11 minutes ago, Valens said:

WRONG! They are. ;) Selmy beat Maelys the Monstrous, who was a menace on battlefield and slew Ormund Baratheon before Barristan slew him. He was after all, a Blackfyre. Dayne slew the Smiling Knight, who was said to be damn near invincible. Criston Cole was a formidable fighter, but who did he slay that equalled these guys? Same with the others. Duncan the Tall was a good fighter, but not that skilled with all weapons and in the beginning he hardly knew how to fight like a knight.

Dunk is a champ... I think he could give Barry a run for the money

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Here's the thing though: Aerys was murdered by one of his Kingsguard, at least one other appears to have been involved in a conspiracy to depose him and put Rhaegar on the Iron Throne, and he was kidnapped during his reign. So in terms of actually guarding the King, Aerys most definitely did not have the Dream Team. Yes, he had some exceptionally gifted warriors, but Jaime in particular was never loyal to Aerys. I do not dispute Jamie's talent, nor do I disagree with his opinions of Aerys, but in terms of actually being a King's guard, Jaime has not really done an exemplary job. 

-Aerys II: constantly questions the King's actions, ultimately puts his sword through the King, allowing his father to enter the city with an enemy army. 

-Robert I: regularly sleeps with the King's wife, is the biological father of the three royal children, threatens to kill the King should he find out about said affair, attempts to murder a young boy, attacks the Hand of the King, flees the city, and the Queen orchestrates the King's death. 

-Joffrey I: is promoted to Lord Commander at the expense of an extremely talented (and loyal to the "office" of the King) Kingsguard, spends the entirety of Joffrey's reign not guarding the King, vows (under some duress) to not take up arms against one of the King's main enemies, loses his sword hand and by extension his ability to physically fight for the King, is still absent when the King is murdered but returns in time to release the man convicted of the King's murder.

-Tommen I: plays a major albeit unintentional role in the murder of the Hand of the King, is still without his sword hand, is ordered back into the field, where he may or may not have been recaptured by the enemy. 

The lack of Dream Teaminess in actually guarding the King by Aerys's final seven was not just limited to Jaime. Lewyn Martell fought and died at the Trident, but was believed to be fighting mainly because Aerys held Elia and the children. Jonathor Darry fought and died at the Trident, and while he seems to have actually been fighting for the King and crown, his greatest known accomplishment was being the brother of the man who saved Viserys and Daenerys.  Barristan Selmy fought at the Trident, was captured after a grievous injury, and bent the knee to the Usurper, who was later mortally wounded in his presence. Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower, and Arthur Dayne were no where to be seen at the Trident, no where to be found when the rebel armies threatened Kings Landing, even though their presence could have dramatically changed the course of events. 

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7 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Here's the thing though: Aerys was murdered by one of his Kingsguard, at least one other appears to have been involved in a conspiracy to depose him and put Rhaegar on the Iron Throne, and he was kidnapped during his reign. So in terms of actually guarding the King, Aerys most definitely did not have the Dream Team. Yes, he had some exceptionally gifted warriors, but Jaime in particular was never loyal to Aerys. I do not dispute Jamie's talent, nor do I disagree with his opinions of Aerys, but in terms of actually being a King's guard, Jaime has not really done an exemplary job. 

-Aerys II: constantly questions the King's actions, ultimately puts his sword through the King, allowing his father to enter the city with an enemy army. 

-Robert I: regularly sleeps with the King's wife, is the biological father of the three royal children, threatens to kill the King should he find out about said affair, attempts to murder a young boy, attacks the Hand of the King, flees the city, and the Queen orchestrates the King's death. 

-Joffrey I: is promoted to Lord Commander at the expense of an extremely talented (and loyal to the "office" of the King) Kingsguard, spends the entirety of Joffrey's reign not guarding the King, vows (under some duress) to not take up arms against one of the King's main enemies, loses his sword hand and by extension his ability to physically fight for the King, is still absent when the King is murdered but returns in time to release the man convicted of the King's murder.

-Tommen I: plays a major albeit unintentional role in the murder of the Hand of the King, is still without his sword hand, is ordered back into the field, where he may or may not have been recaptured by the enemy. 

The lack of Dream Teaminess in actually guarding the King by Aerys's final seven was not just limited to Jaime. Lewyn Martell fought and died at the Trident, but was believed to be fighting mainly because Aerys held Elia and the children. Jonathor Darry fought and died at the Trident, and while he seems to have actually been fighting for the King and crown, his greatest known accomplishment was being the brother of the man who saved Viserys and Daenerys.  Barristan Selmy fought at the Trident, was captured after a grievous injury, and bent the knee to the Usurper, who was later mortally wounded in his presence. Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower, and Arthur Dayne were no where to be seen at the Trident, no where to be found when the rebel armies threatened Kings Landing, even though their presence could have dramatically changed the course of events. 

Here is someone who either hasn't read the whole story or has missed a vital part: Rhaegar sent Whent, Hightower and Dayne to guard Lyanna. It was a dumb thing yes, but also shows how important she was to him and their unborn child also.

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I think we need to define dream team here, because just as Eden-Mackenzie say, your "mad skills" doesn´t matter of you are not loyal enough or if you have other flaws. Dream team doesnt mean "best warrior" but "best at protecting me, following my orders and make me live as long as possible" and as Jaime showed, those two things are not always the same. Ability is not the same thing as suitability.

Another example. Roberts small council. One of the best, if not THE best council groups you can have. Jon Arryn, Littlefinger, Varys, Renly, Pycelle - this is men with abilties! If that team tries to go "Protagoras is the best" and work their ass off for my kingly sake, I would be very happy.

Except they didn´t do that. They were scheming against Robert and with benefit for themselves. They were not a dream team for Robert. They could have, but they wasn´t. And if you have Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant say arguing with eachother and refuses to pass the ball, you certainly wont score as much regardless of a theoretically possible maximum. 

3 hours ago, Valens said:

Here is someone who either hasn't read the whole story or has missed a vital part: Rhaegar sent Whent, Hightower and Dayne to guard Lyanna. It was a dumb thing yes, but also shows how important she was to him and their unborn child also.

You are missing his point. That they were there in the first place, following Rhaegars orders instead of their King is a reason why their are slightly unsuitable. Maybe Aerys wanted them at the Trident and gave a counter-command?

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The KG may be a burden for the first sons but is an incredible honour for 2nd-3rd sons especially the ones coming from smaller houses or not particularly rich ones. The KG is a prestigious role and the very fact that the knight in question will be close to the King brings comfort to the person in question and would give the person chosen a role of power (ie he’ll be close to the King). If I was Robert, this would be my KG

1-      Barristan Selmy - Lord Commander. As Lord Commander he will be training my bastard (Gendry?) to become KG.

2-      Jamie Lannister (Id hope that Tywin would put as heir my own son instead)

3-      Benjen Stark – A Stark should always be at the King’s side and he will act as a communication line between Ned and the crown. As KG he will also be training Jon Snow so he can become KG one day

4-      Brynden Tully – The Tully brothers are pissed off with one another. What better way to sort this out if not by appointing the Blackfish as KG. Hoster will get an influential figure in KL and Brynden will have his brother off his back.

5-      Mandon Moore – Jon Arryn deserves to appoint one of his own as KG

6-      Sandor Clegane – Sandor is fierce and is currently at the mercy of his abusive brother who own the Clegane lands and titles. By making him KG, Robert would grant him a better life and a purpose. Hopefully that would translate into loyalty.

7-      Joer Mormont – considering his advanced age, Joer’s role will be purely ceremonial. His job would be to tutor Edric Storm who will one day take his role when Joer dies.

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12 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Here's the thing though: Aerys was murdered by one of his Kingsguard, at least one other appears to have been involved in a conspiracy to depose him and put Rhaegar on the Iron Throne, and he was kidnapped during his reign. So in terms of actually guarding the King, Aerys most definitely did not have the Dream Team. Yes, he had some exceptionally gifted warriors, but Jaime in particular was never loyal to Aerys. I do not dispute Jamie's talent, nor do I disagree with his opinions of Aerys, but in terms of actually being a King's guard, Jaime has not really done an exemplary job. 

-Aerys II: constantly questions the King's actions, ultimately puts his sword through the King, allowing his father to enter the city with an enemy army. 

-Robert I: regularly sleeps with the King's wife, is the biological father of the three royal children, threatens to kill the King should he find out about said affair, attempts to murder a young boy, attacks the Hand of the King, flees the city, and the Queen orchestrates the King's death. 

-Joffrey I: is promoted to Lord Commander at the expense of an extremely talented (and loyal to the "office" of the King) Kingsguard, spends the entirety of Joffrey's reign not guarding the King, vows (under some duress) to not take up arms against one of the King's main enemies, loses his sword hand and by extension his ability to physically fight for the King, is still absent when the King is murdered but returns in time to release the man convicted of the King's murder.

-Tommen I: plays a major albeit unintentional role in the murder of the Hand of the King, is still without his sword hand, is ordered back into the field, where he may or may not have been recaptured by the enemy. 

The lack of Dream Teaminess in actually guarding the King by Aerys's final seven was not just limited to Jaime. Lewyn Martell fought and died at the Trident, but was believed to be fighting mainly because Aerys held Elia and the children. Jonathor Darry fought and died at the Trident, and while he seems to have actually been fighting for the King and crown, his greatest known accomplishment was being the brother of the man who saved Viserys and Daenerys.  Barristan Selmy fought at the Trident, was captured after a grievous injury, and bent the knee to the Usurper, who was later mortally wounded in his presence. Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower, and Arthur Dayne were no where to be seen at the Trident, no where to be found when the rebel armies threatened Kings Landing, even though their presence could have dramatically changed the course of events. 

I must say I really, really like this post. This is a must read if one somehow needed even more arguments why Jaime doesn´t belong in a kingsguard. 

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