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Who was more honorable? Ned Stark or Ser Barristan


Ser Middlefinger

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10 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Like Robert didn't do as much damage to the realm more so than either Aerys or Rhaegar example: The War o the 5 Kings. 

 

 I am no fan of Robert at all, but I don't think it's fair to blame him for the War of the five kings.

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24 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

 I am no fan of Robert at all, but I don't think it's fair to blame him for the War of the five kings.

I do. His neglect, stupidity, cowardly ways, and inability to do his job helped TWot5ks get to where it did. 

He was never a husband, that's why his wife was fecking her brother and his Kingsguard. He sucked as a father never paying attention to his children or teaching Joffery about how to be a king. Joffery acted the way he did because it was Cersei and her fucked up mindset teaching Joffery. He was a horrible king letting corruption run amuck in his court that's why nearly everybody was plotting, stealing and committing treason under him. This war did not manifest over night it was 15yrs in the making Robert's whole reign. 

He was stupid and weak. What kind of person gets so drink that their wife is able to cheat on you with your guard next to your drunk passed out self? He didn't remove Jaime from the KG, he trusted the Lannisters, he also went hunting turning a blind eye to the Lannisters and Starks fighting before he died, and he never gave justice to the people of KL, house Martell. 

Robert definitely played a major part in causing TWot5Ks, he's not the only one but he had a hand in starting it. 

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1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Robert definitely played a major part in causing TWot5Ks, he's not the only one but he had a hand in starting it. 

That's a rather twisted set of logic, especially given that Robert's murder is what ignited the War of the Five Kings. The primary cause was Jaime and Cersei's incestuous relationship. Which was going on long before Robert ever married her, though I guess you could blame him for not being clairvoyant. Then again by that twisted logic, you should blame every lord who backed Robert during the Rebellion for the war of the five kings as well. After all, Robert was a notorious drunkard womanizer long before he ever had a crown.

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I would like to point out that Jaime did not have to kill Aerys. By killing Rossart he stopped the order from being given. All he needed to do was subdue Aerys. 

Barristan is a great Knight beyond beyond reproach and some in this thread are forgetting a few things. The Kingsguard is first and foremost the personal bodyguards of the king and the king's family if he so wishes. They are not his councilors nor or they there to police his actions. Their entire purpose is to serve and protect the king.

The Ideals of a "true Knight" are a great thing to aspire to but only reachable so long as the knight in question is a just lord or serves a good and just lord. As we know it is the case in Westeros there are just as many good lords as bad and depending on which you serve those vows you swore in the Sept will be compromised.

Now with Barristan he served King Jaeharys, King Aerys, King Robert. Only Aerys was a truly bad king and that was only at the end of his reign. So why are some harping on and on about his service with Aerys? It is not and was not his position to control Aerys. Others like Tywin, the Small Council, and Rhaegar should have interceded earlier and worked together to minimize Aerys role once it was clear he was mad. 

But not the Kingsguard. 

Also are we really comparing Jaime and Barristan? The guy for which a good reason for joining was being to continue his incestuous relationship with Cersie...really? GTFO

 

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37 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

That's a rather twisted set of logic, especially given that Robert's murder is what ignited the War of the Five Kings. The primary cause was Jaime and Cersei's incestuous relationship. Which was going on long before Robert ever married her, though I guess you could blame him for not being clairvoyant. Then again by that twisted logic, you should blame every lord who backed Robert during the Rebellion for the war of the five kings as well. After all, Robert was a notorious drunkard womanizer long before he ever had a crown.

I already explained in my post that you half quoted why Robert has blame for TWot5Ks. 

Robert was a very negligent king, starting with not purging KL of the likes of Jaime Lannister, Pycelle, Varys. He didn't teach Joffery how to be a king and let that crazy beast Cersei teach him how. He went hunting while the Starks and Lannisters were going at each other's throats and other stuff. 

The War of the 5 Kings did not just happen overnight it took 15yrs of corruption and neglect all happening under Robert's watch so yes he deserves some blame for a war that grew under his reign and took shape to be the worst war the country has ever seen. 

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1 hour ago, devilish said:

What's honourable in bending the knee to four different kings/queens two of which are absolute monsters?

Barristan the Bold became a member of the Kingsguard while Jaeharys was king. Aerys was by all accounts a good king for most of his reign with only his jealousy of Tywin and his philandering being his bad points. Duskendale broke Aerys completely. Robert while shirking his duties as King, which really with the way Westeros is setup amounts to settling disputes between the 7 kingdoms, managing foreign affairs, and ensuring the royal bloodline is intact. Robert thought all of this was taken care of. And really only Littlefinger and Varys was corrupt. 

Joffery was a right little shit though with no good qualities whatsoever thanks to Cersie. 

 

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36 minutes ago, The Golden Wolf said:

Barristan the Bold became a member of the Kingsguard while Jaeharys was king. Aerys was by all accounts a good king for most of his reign with only his jealousy of Tywin and his philandering being his bad points. Duskendale broke Aerys completely. Robert while shirking his duties as King, which really with the way Westeros is setup amounts to settling disputes between the 7 kingdoms, managing foreign affairs, and ensuring the royal bloodline is intact. Robert thought all of this was taken care of. And really only Littlefinger and Varys was corrupt. 

Joffery was a right little shit though with no good qualities whatsoever thanks to Cersie. 

 

Selmy was definitely bold. If he wasn't he wouldn't have gone to Duskendale for that suicidal mission and he would certainly not challenge Joffrey the way he did in front of the entire KG. He wasn't a bad man either and in his prime he was the finest soldier of his generation Having said that he wasn't honourable.

A honourable knight wouldn't have allowed innocent people to get burnt to a crisp. He wouldn't have allowed an innocent wife to be tortured by a mad man. An honourable KG wouldn't have bend the knee to an usurper and if he did he wouldn't become a turncloak because he was rightfully dismissed (Robert did died on his watch).

Selmy is just another clear example of how hypocritical Westeros is. So Jamie kills a mad king and all hell went loose without anyone even bothering asking him why he did so. On the other hand Selmy bends the knee to every king/queen that pats his head like some common sellsword and he's honourable. Same with the Tully/Freys issue. The former wouldn't rebel unless they secure two prestigious marriage matchups. However the latter are expected to just go with the flow and obey their Lord Paramount in rebelling against the King (ie their boss) without taking anything in exchange. 

 

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7 hours ago, devilish said:

Selmy was definitely bold. If he wasn't he wouldn't have gone to Duskendale for that suicidal mission and he would certainly not challenge Joffrey the way he did in front of the entire KG. He wasn't a bad man either and in his prime he was the finest soldier of his generation Having said that he wasn't honourable.

A honourable knight wouldn't have allowed innocent people to get burnt to a crisp. He wouldn't have allowed an innocent wife to be tortured by a mad man. An honourable KG wouldn't have bend the knee to an usurper and if he did he wouldn't become a turncloak because he was rightfully dismissed (Robert did died on his watch).

Selmy is just another clear example of how hypocritical Westeros is. So Jamie kills a mad king and all hell went loose without anyone even bothering asking him why he did so. On the other hand Selmy bends the knee to every king/queen that pats his head like some common sellsword and he's honourable. Same with the Tully/Freys issue. The former wouldn't rebel unless they secure two prestigious marriage matchups. However the latter are expected to just go with the flow and obey their Lord Paramount in rebelling against the King (ie their boss) without taking anything in exchange. 

 

Again though you are judging him for things he had no control over. we do not know if Barristan ever stood guard while Aerys raped Rhaella which by all accounts may have just been once or twice. 

Also it is not the Kingsguard place to countermand the king. Once you have them doing that it is a slippery slope to them being the ones with power. No Kingsguard wants that because they remember Ser Criston Cole who overstepped his role and had a hand in the horror that was the Dance of Dragons. That is actually one of the thngs that both Jaime and Ser Barristan think about actually, just how much can the Kings/Queensguard can do  

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Is there any measurement scale of honorability?

As maester Aemon used to say, honor and vows are easy to keep you vows and do your duty until you have to make a choice. Ned as Lord of Winterfell had to made more different choices in his life and take responsibility than Barristan, whos only task was to guard a king. Ned

Selmy reflected that if he did things differently the history of Westeros would be different. If he hadn't save Aerys from Duskendale, if he unhorsed Rhaegar... But it wasn't his choice it was just set of circumstances.

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3 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

Again though you are judging him for things he had no control over. we do not know if Barristan ever stood guard while Aerys raped Rhaella which by all accounts may have just been once or twice. 

Also it is not the Kingsguard place to countermand the king. Once you have them doing that it is a slippery slope to them being the ones with power. No Kingsguard wants that because they remember Ser Criston Cole who overstepped his role and had a hand in the horror that was the Dance of Dragons. That is actually one of the thngs that both Jaime and Ser Barristan think about actually, just how much can the Kings/Queensguard can do  

 

He was KG, he knew exactly what was going on. I am not judging Selmy in anyway. I would probably do the same as he did (what's the point of trying anything at that point? It would only get you killed in like 2.3 seconds). However lets stop with this honourable crap. Selmy was a fantastic killer and a good man, however he wasn't honourable. Dayne was honourable (he stick to his crown prince to the end), Eddard was honourable (it costed him everything, his wife's love (Jon Snow), his family (ie most died because he wanted to give Cersei a kickstart) and ultimately his life). Mind you, honourable can easily be interchanged to stupid. 

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I love how some people are saying Barristan is not honorable for not stabbing Aerys in the back or speaking up for people Aerys was going to execute. Are they ignoring the fact that he took a vow to protect the nut. Aerys was a horrible man, but Barristan took a vow and as show he meant to keep it for as long as he could. People are basically blaming him for Aery's crimes, when all Barristan really did at the end of the day was keep his word.

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3 hours ago, devilish said:

 

He was KG, he knew exactly what was going on. I am not judging Selmy in anyway. I would probably do the same as he did (what's the point of trying anything at that point? It would only get you killed in like 2.3 seconds). However lets stop with this honourable crap. Selmy was a fantastic killer and a good man, however he wasn't honourable. Dayne was honourable (he stick to his crown prince to the end), Eddard was honourable (it costed him everything, his wife's love (Jon Snow), his family (ie most died because he wanted to give Cersei a kickstart) and ultimately his life). Mind you, honourable can easily be interchanged to stupid. 

I see the things you use to show Ned's honor more as him just being a good person. Honor is not morality. Both Ned and Barristan were/are honorable moral men. It is just Barristan being just a Kingsguard sworn to the Iron Throne/King of the Seven Kingdoms had his morality decided by the person he was sworn to. Ned as a great Lord was free to do as he please so long as it did not interfere with the King's Law.

As long as the person sitting the Iron Throne was a good and just king a Kingsguard would never have to worry about going against their morals. Honor is doing your duty and keeping your word and both men did that.

Dayne standing by Rhaegar is not special seeing as Rhaegar saw fit to abduct a great Lord's daughter, who was betrothed to another great lord. 

Also Jaime murdering Aerys was both an immoral and dishonorable act.

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22 hours ago, The Golden Wolf said:

I would like to point out that Jaime did not have to kill Aerys. By killing Rossart he stopped the order from being given. All he needed to do was subdue Aerys. 

 

 

In a castle full of Targaryen loyalists? It would have been very risky.

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1 hour ago, Joy Hill said:

 

In a castle full of Targaryen loyalists? It would have been very risky.

Risky but the right thing to do. both morally and honorably. plus how many if Jaime would have just opened his mouth about the King conspiring with those crazy ass Alchemists to burn Kingslanding and everyone in it down to the ground with Wildfire and Jaime had no choice but to incapacitate him for everyone's well being, I am sure somebody would have listened. 

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20 hours ago, Dofs said:

Not killing a murderous maniacal creature and risking the safety of hundreds of thousands was a right thing to do?

Yes. It was not Jaime's place to kill Aerys. The moral and Honorable thing to do would have been to subdue Aerys and either hope Lannister men come in first or that he can convince the Targ men that Aerys has gone mad and intends to kill everyone with Wildfire. Hell he could have even attempted to escape with Aerys by boat to Dragonstone or told loyal Targ men to take Aerys to Dragonstone but do not let him talk to any Alchemists or else all of Kingslanding will be destroyed. 

Jaime killed Aerys not because he had to do it but because he wanted to do it. there stood this man he had stupidly decided to give up his house and titles for even though in the back of his mind he knew he did not deserve to be a Kingsguard and only did so because his sister promised they could continue their incestuous relationship. there stood the man who only wanted him to join the Kingsguard to spite Tywin by taking his Golden Boy, his heir. There stood the man he had to watch commit depraved acts and do nothing and have his fellow Kingsguard tell him it is not their place to do anything but obey Aerys, therefore shattering the perfect image of the Kingsguard he had.

Jaime did not kill Aerys out of some civic minded duty to save Kingslanding, it was a cathartic release of all the pent up rage and sickness he had towards Aerys. 

Only one person had the right to demand Aerys head and his name was Eddard Stark.

 

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On 22/09/2016 at 0:30 AM, sifth said:

I love how some people are saying Barristan is not honorable for not stabbing Aerys in the back or speaking up for people Aerys was going to execute. Are they ignoring the fact that he took a vow to protect the nut. Aerys was a horrible man, but Barristan took a vow and as show he meant to keep it for as long as he could. People are basically blaming him for Aery's crimes, when all Barristan really did at the end of the day was keep his word.

The problem with vows is that they are too simplistic. For example as a knight Selmy is vowed to defend the innocent and te weak. As KG he's vowed to defend the king till he dies and obey him at all cost. What happens when the King is hurting the innocent and the weak? Should he break his first vow or his second vow? What happens if the knight in question is wounded and there's no possible way of winning? Should he be pragmatic and surrender or should he fight till the very end like Dayne did? What happens if an usurper takes the throne. Should the KG serve the usurper or should he leave the place at the first occasion and defend the King's successors, who also happen to be innocent and weak? What if the king orders a KG to retire? Should he obey? 

There's no doubt that Selmy is a good man. Others would have abused of their power to treat people like crap,especially someone who suffered the upbringing Selmy had (whom lets face it was a child soldier). Selmy never did that. He's also quite great and passionate in his job. However he's a man who did what he had to do to survive and live in the most comfy life that a mere knight's son could ever hope to reach. Which is fair enough really.

I like Selmy. He's a great character, who rose up the ranks due to merit and who gave his 100% for a job he loved. My criticism is towards the hypocrisy Westeros have who judges people differently despite doing similar deeds and tend to promote a life that doesn't exist (what is expected by a honourable person is actually very stupid).  

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