Who was more honorable? Ned Stark or Ser Barristan

[Bironic]

On 24.9.2016 at 1:09 PM, INCBlackbird said:

This! and Jaime is the only one who ever noticed how hypocritical the concept of knights are in this world. he's the only one who isn't a hypocrite and people hate him for it. I love him for it. 

Ned is a hypocrite too though, a less obvious one than Barristan but the guy was so concerned with not killing childen yet he was totally willing to start a war to put "the rightful" king on the throne, as if thousends of children wouldn't die in that war (but I guess since they were lowborn it wouldn't matter...?) and the best thing is that he fought against the rightful king when he showed himself to be crazy, at that point you would think that Ned would realise that "the rightful king" is a meaningless concept...

Sandor Clegane has also some insight how hypocritical the concept of knighthood is...

On 24.9.2016 at 5:19 AM, sifth said:

So Barry's crime is not getting killed? Come on, he was severely hurt trying to protect Rhaegar. The guy did his duty and better than most men would have. 

My statement wasn't meant to be taken literally, that's why I put an emoticon on. I agree that Barristan did his duty better than most.

But he always was a follower who did his duty, first he followed mad aerys, then Bob the usurper, he would have followed Joffrey...

In his society doing your duty and follow orders is considered honorful, in ours not so much.

[INCBlackbird]

3 minutes ago, Bironic said:

Sandor Clegane has also some insight how hypocritical the concept of knighthood is...

Ah yes, I forgot about Sandor but that's very true, he does as well!

[sifth]

3 hours ago, Bironic said:

Sandor Clegane has also some insight how hypocritical the concept of knighthood is...

My statement wasn't meant to be taken literally, that's why I put an emoticon on. I agree that Barristan did his duty better than most.

But he always was a follower who did his duty, first he followed mad aerys, then Bob the usurper, he would have followed Joffrey...

In his society doing your duty and follow orders is considered honorful, in ours not so much.

The best part of the Hound is, he's not a hypocrite like Jamie, who knows the knight system is rigged, but takes a vow anyway. I love how Sandor even gets upset when people call him "ser". Dam he's such an interesting character.

 

I'm confused on how we should judge Ser. Barry though. I mean the guy is honestly a good man and well trusted. Just look how nearly all of Dany's lieutenants were willing to allow him to assume command of her army, with basically no protest at all. I can't view him as a bad man for following Aerys either, a lot of good men did exactly the same thing. Robert was viewed as a rebel king at the time. So using modern standards would the just thing be, for Ser. Barristan to betray the king and prince he was sworn to protect and join the rebels? I think many on these forms would view him as a turn cloak if he did that. Yet many view him as dishonorable for keeping his vow and staying loyal.

[Bironic]

On 24.9.2016 at 6:41 PM, sifth said:

The best part of the Hound is, he's not a hypocrite like Jamie, who knows the knight system is rigged, but takes a vow anyway. I love how Sandor even gets upset when people call him "ser". Dam he's such an interesting character.

 

I'm confused on how we should judge Ser. Barry though. I mean the guy is honestly a good man and well trusted. Just look how nearly all of Dany's lieutenants were willing to allow him to assume command of her army, with basically no protest at all. I can't view him as a bad man for following Aerys either, a lot of good men did exactly the same thing. Robert was viewed as a rebel king at the time. So using modern standards would the just thing be, for Ser. Barristan to betray the king and prince he was sworn to protect and join the rebels? I think many on these forms would view him as a turn cloak if he did that. Yet many view him as dishonorable for keeping his vow and staying loyal.

Well they make you swear a whole lot of oaths: protect the king, the realm, the weak, whatever. Sooner or later you have to choose which of your oaths you take more seriously than others.

A lot of good men followed mad men, does that absolve them from their crimes?

Who is more honorable Jon Arryn who defied Aerys or Mace Tyrell who followed him? Is Stannis honorable because he chose brother over liege?

There are no easy answers, one way or another you will besmirch your honor.

Jaime chose to save the city by betraying the king he was sworn to protect. Is that honorable?

But he turned his cloak after the Targs lost the war, when turning the cloak was the easier thing to do.

He served the targs while they were in power, when they lost their power he served the Baratheons, he didn't stay loyal to the Targs nor the Baratheons. He left the baratheons because joffrey stripped him of his job and mocked him infront of the court.

I just don' t think that Barristan is a paragon of honor, he is slightly better than average. I don't think that there are white knights, not even Barristan Selmy.

 

[Kal-L]

On 20/9/2016 at 0:30 AM, The Wolves said:

At least when Aerys was going total batshit crazy it was Rhaegar and Rhaegar alone who wanted to remove Aerys. It was Rhaegar who looked at his father and knew that he needed to be removed. He wasn't Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully who didn't give a shit what this insane king was doing as long as it didn't affect them. Rhaegar didn't try to use Aerys' madness for gain like people at court did. Rhaegar made mistakes, everybody does in this series, but don't act like he was some terrible human being when we don't know the whole stories. 

 

And Jaime has never been nor will ever be more "honorable" than Barristan even in his own twisted way. 

No need to rewrite the story, Rhaegar didn't do anything to remove Aerys, actually he only made the situation worse. Intents doesn't equal actions.

As for the others lords, I fail to see how they could have acted in any way without a strong alliance covering them such as the STAB (which might have been the purpose of all those betrothals).

[The Wolves]

3 hours ago, Kal-L said:

No need to rewrite the story, Rhaegar didn't do anything to remove Aerys, actually he only made the situation worse. Intents doesn't equal actions.

As for the others lords, I fail to see how they could have acted in any way without a strong alliance covering them such as the STAB (which might have been the purpose of all those betrothals).

Read what I wrote. I said Rhaegar wanted/was going to do something about Aerys nowhere did I say Rhaegar did anything about Aerys. 

And those alliances were for gain for the great lords they were not doing it for the good of anybody except themselves let alone the millions of Westeros population. Rhaegar does get points for intentions for recognizing that Aerys needed to be removed more than those great lords who only removed him because of their lives or for gain. 

[Kal-L]

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

Read what I wrote. I said Rhaegar wanted/was going to do something about Aerys nowhere did I say Rhaegar did anything about Aerys. 

And those alliances were for gain for the great lords they were not doing it for the good of anybody except themselves let alone the millions of Westeros population. Rhaegar does get points for intentions for recognizing that Aerys needed to be removed more than those great lords who only removed him because of their lives or for gain. 

Rhaegar is the one living close enough to Aerys to witness of his mandness and his inability to rule, he is the one who is in a tense relationship with his father and the most likely at risk at the time of the tourney of Harrenhall. Besides Aerys wasn't his priority since he thought it was a good idea to run off with Lyanna before even ending what he had begun, dealing with his father.

[sifth]

4 hours ago, Bironic said:

Well they make you swear a whole lot of oaths: protect the king, the realm, the weak, whatever. Sooner or later you have to choose which of your oaths you take more seriously than others.

A lot of good men followed mad men, does that absolve them from their crimes?

Who is more honorable Jon Arryn who defied Aerys or Mace Tyrell who followed him? Is Stannis honorable because he chose brother over liege?

There are no easy answers, one way or another you will besmirch your honor.

Jaime chose to save the city by betraying the king he was sworn to protect. Is that honorable?

But he turned his cloak after the Targs lost the war, when turning the cloak was the easier thing to do.

He served the targs while they were in power, when they lost their power he served the Baratheons, he didn't stay loyal to the Targs nor the Baratheons. He left the baratheons because joffrey stripped him of his job and mocked him infront of the court.

I just don' t think that Barristan is a paragon of honor, he is slightly better than average. I don't think that there are white knights, not even Barristan Selmy.

 

Did Jamie have to kill Areys though. The Alchemist was dead, why not just knock the mad king out and explain the situation to Ned Stark and the western lords when they entered. I never really understood why Jamie had "no choice" when it came to killing Areys. The Alchemist I can understand, but not the king.

[INCBlackbird]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

The best part of the Hound is, he's not a hypocrite like Jamie, who knows the knight system is rigged, but takes a vow anyway. I love how Sandor even gets upset when people call him "ser". Dam he's such an interesting character.

When Jaime took his vows he didn't realise how fucked up the system was, he was planning on being the typical knight in shining armour.

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

When Jaime took his vows he didn't realise how fucked up the system was, he was planning on being the typical knight in shining armour.

Yet he continues to be a knight of the KG, even after Areys is dead. I know he only does it to get into his sisters pants, which is pretty f'd up in and of itself.

[Bonkers]

8 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

When Jaime took his vows he didn't realise how fucked up the system was, he was planning on being the typical knight in shining armour.

I disagree...Jamie's POV says he did it because Cersei begged him too, and she even orchestrated it behind Tywin's back knowing he could not refuse the King.  He did it coz she was going to be married off and she wanted him with her in KL.  But it backfired, and after Jamie was Knighted to the KG Tywin cracked the shits and took Cersei back to the rock with him, and it all went to shit for Jamie. Jamie only did it to be with Cersei. 

[INCBlackbird]

41 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

I disagree...Jamie's POV says he did it because Cersei begged him too, and she even orchestrated it behind Tywin's back knowing he could not refuse the King.  He did it coz she was going to be married off and she wanted him with her in KL.  But it backfired, and after Jamie was Knighted to the KG Tywin cracked the shits and took Cersei back to the rock with him, and it all went to shit for Jamie. Jamie only did it to be with Cersei. 

Sure he did it right away because Cersei told him too, but was always planning on being a knight. He says himself that he dreamed about "being arthur dayne but ended up being the smiling knight"

[Bonkers]

3 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

Sure he did it right away because Cersei told him too, but was always planning on being a knight. He says himself that he dreamed about "being arthur dayne but ended up being the smiling knight"

Yeh, but he only did it coz he was groomed by his father and wanted Cersei.  He was TOLD to be that man, Tywin made certain of that.  I think Jamie just wanted to be with Cersei and marry her, the knight stuff was just what was expected of him.  That's my impression anyway. (although he did have honor, he was most certainly not Barry or Ned)

[INCBlackbird]

1 minute ago, Bonkers said:

Yeh, but he only did it coz he was groomed by his father and wanted Cersei.  He was TOLD to be that man, Tywin made certain of that.  I think Jamie just wanted to be with Cersei and marry her, the knight stuff was just what was expected of him.  That's my impression anyway.

why exactly do you think that Tywin wanted Jaime to be a knight or a good person for that matter. Tywin was very angry when he became a knight because he wanted Jaime to be his heir. Jaime wasn't interested in power though, the only lannister who isn't in fact. He just wanted to be with Cersei and do good, probably he specifically wanted to be Cersei's knight in shining armour at that point.

[Bonkers]

4 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

why exactly do you think that Tywin wanted Jaime to be a knight or a good person for that matter. Tywin was very angry when he became a knight because he wanted Jaime to be his heir. Jaime wasn't interested in power though, the only lannister who isn't in fact. He just wanted to be with Cersei and do good, probably he specifically wanted to be Cersei's knight in shining armour at that point.

I think that being a knight (when Dayne knighted him after the Brothers of the Kingswood battle) wasn't the issue for Tywin, it was the KG that was later at Harrenhal.  That only happend becoz cersei urged Jaimie to accept it if she made it happen - behind Tywins back. Tywin's past is rooted in his father being so soft and pathetic that his bannermen laughed at him behind his back, hence why Tywin led th Tybreks and Reynes to their end alone, he was trying to win back the honor of his house.  That is what he expected of Jaimie, knowing Tyrion would never live up to it.  

[Bonkers]

2 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

I think that being a knight (when Dayne knighted him after the Brothers of the Kingswood battle) wasn't the issue for Tywin, it was the KG that was later at Harrenhal.  That only happend becoz cersei urged Jaimie to accept it if she made it happen - behind Tywins back. Tywin's past is rooted in his father being so soft and pathetic that his bannermen laughed at him behind his back, hence why Tywin led th Tybreks and Reynes to their end alone, he was trying to win back the honor of his house.  That is what he expected of Jaimie, knowing Tyrion would never live up to it.  

I am just saying, that I dont think you can compare Jaimie to Ned and Barry.  He did what he did for the love of Cersei (jioning the KG, forsaking his heirdom and leaving it to Tyrion - none of which I think he cared for or thought about.  His dad of course was proud of his deeds, being a knight, but the KG is totally different, and after Jaimie and Cersei organized it it fell apart coz Tywin was so pissed at Aerys for taking his heir. 

[Bonkers]

Getting back to the OP, personally, Barry and Ned can't really be compared I dont think.

Barry took his vow when he joined the KG and stuck by it solidly.  Whom ever was on the throne he served; Aerys, Rhaegar, Robert, Joff whoever was his king or prince.  When dismissed by Joff he then had a choice for the firsttime and went to the only rightful heir could see, Dany. 

Ned though, his is way harder.  He chose his friend over his king, then his king killed his family.  His Prince also apparently kidnapped and raped his sister.  Then he finds that he has custody over his nephew whom is also the kin of the family who murdered his own.  Not only does he accept the wish of his sister, but he lies to his wife (whom was thrust on him arranged because this kin murdered his family), lies to his own men, his children, his friend, his king his everyone.  Just to keep this baby safe.  His whole life was ruined because of Jon Snow (the reason for the rebellion in the first place), yet he keeps his honor and his promise.  Everything Ned does is full of emotional torment and lies, yet he keeps his honor as best he can. 

 

When it comes to who is more honorable, Ned hands down.  Emotional torment for honor of someone else wins over a oath to a service anytime in my eyes. 

[Bonkers]

On 21/09/2016 at 5:16 PM, The Wolves said:

Robert was a very negligent king, starting with not purging KL of the likes of Jaime Lannister, Pycelle, Varys. He didn't teach Joffery how to be a king and let that crazy beast Cersei teach him how. He went hunting while the Starks and Lannisters were going at each other's throats and other stuff. 

The War of the 5 Kings did not just happen overnight it took 15yrs of corruption and neglect all happening under Robert's watch so yes he deserves some blame for a war that grew under his reign and took shape to be the worst war the country has ever seen. 

I disagree, even though I already know you will come back with a sanctimonious bleating...

Robert could not be blamed at all for the WotFK.... I am not the author so I will not use definitive terms like you but I make my point.... If Robert left a trueborn heir, THAT heir would have ruled as they felt fit and changed what they felt needed changing.  No one would have disputed them, and it would remain as was.  BUT because he had illegitimate bastards, Cersei and his own, it was disputed...hence the WAR began.  NO WAR would have begun to fight for the throne if there were no dispute over his kids' legitimacy.  Period.  Maybe not even Tryion being taken would be so bad, as Ned would never had spoken against the throne. 

[Bironic]

On 25.9.2016 at 0:15 AM, sifth said:

Did Jamie have to kill Areys though. The Alchemist was dead, why not just knock the mad king out and explain the situation to Ned Stark and the western lords when they entered. I never really understood why Jamie had "no choice" when it came to killing Areys. The Alchemist I can understand, but not the king.

Of course he could. But Jaime is a rash person, who acts before he thinks. He isn't as coldblooded as Tywin or Tyrion, he is more like Cersei in that regard.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Bironic said:

Of course he could. But Jaime is a rash person, who acts before he thinks. He isn't as coldblooded as Tywin or Tyrion, he is more like Cersei in that regard.

 

I just don't enjoy the "he had no choice" excuse. To be honest Jamie's reason for killing Areys sort of feels like a retcon. I mean Areys basically put a bomb under the city and Jamie worked in that same city for nearly 15 years, without ever telling anyone about it or removing it. Sure he killed the people who made it, but what's stopping some random yoyo from finding it.