King Ned Stark Posted September 27, 2016 Share Posted September 27, 2016 2 hours ago, sifth said: I just don't enjoy the "he had no choice" excuse. To be honest Jamie's reason for killing Areys sort of feels like a retcon. I mean Areys basically put a bomb under the city and Jamie worked in that same city for nearly 15 years, without ever telling anyone about it or removing it. Sure he killed the people who made it, but what's stopping some random yoyo from finding it. I'm convinced it is a retcon, and a bad one at that. It seems Martin fell in love with the idea of "redemption arcs", but as Stannis said, a good deed does not wash out the bad. My opinion, there can be no redemption without atonement. If Jaime was overly concerned about the wildfire caches, or concerned at all above saving his own skin, his priority would have been letting the new regime understand the danger and helping to remove it. Instead he bends knee to the new dynasty and begins cuckholding the new king, business as usual for Jaime. I believe, though, that his so-called redemption arc is just another of Martin's tricks, and that Jaime hasn't changed much, if at all. He wanted Brienne's respect because he saw in her everything that Cersei isn't. From beginning to middle to the current end of Jaime's arc we have him attempt to murder a seven year old boy, hunt through the riverlands to maim/murder a ten year old girl, and threaten to launch a newborn via trebuchet over the walls of Riverrun if the castle is not surrendered. Guy's a class act and not a hypocrite at all. @Incblackbird, Ned wasn't willing to start a war, he was willing to enter a war to stop an illegal and unjust regime, that since the beginning of aCoK one could argue have committed more atrocities and criminal acts than the Mad King himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted September 27, 2016 Share Posted September 27, 2016 33 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said: From beginning to middle to the current end of Jaime's arc we have him attempt to murder a seven year old boy, hunt through the riverlands to maim/murder a ten year old girl, and threaten to launch a newborn via trebuchet over the walls of Riverrun if the castle is not surrendered. Guy's a class act and not a hypocrite at all. What child did Jamie hunt and try to kill since losing his arm. Also pretty sure he was just bluffing to Edmure. Throughout the entire chapter he talks about how he vowed not to ever harm anyone from house Stark or Tully again and how he can accomplish his mission without doing that. He also kept his word when it came to treating the garrison of Riverrun fairly. Now show Jamie is another story. On the tv show he seems to be going back to his wicked self and I can believe that man would harm Edmure's family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free folk Daemon Posted September 27, 2016 Share Posted September 27, 2016 On 19/09/2016 at 4:36 PM, Joy Hill said: The Ned. Barristan never stopped Aerys from burning/raping people, but when he was forced to retire he found it in him to defy the king. I don't agree with his priorities. What they said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targaryen Restoration Posted September 27, 2016 Share Posted September 27, 2016 Ser Barristan is more honorable than Ned Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bironic Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 On 27.9.2016 at 9:21 PM, sifth said: I just don't enjoy the "he had no choice" excuse. To be honest Jamie's reason for killing Areys sort of feels like a retcon. I mean Areys basically put a bomb under the city and Jamie worked in that same city for nearly 15 years, without ever telling anyone about it or removing it. Sure he killed the people who made it, but what's stopping some random yoyo from finding it. I think it would have been out of character for Jamie to "only" capture Aerys and/or the pyromancer. When Jamie hears that Tyrion is captured by Catelyn, he does not try to capture Eddard as Tywin would have, instead he tries to kill Northmen in retaliation. It's not that he had no choice, I am quite sure he never thought about capturing Aerys or his hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 21 minutes ago, Bironic said: I think it would have been out of character for Jamie to "only" capture Aerys and/or the pyromancer. When Jamie hears that Tyrion is captured by Catelyn, he does not try to capture Eddard as Tywin would have, instead he tries to kill Northmen in retaliation. It's not that he had no choice, I am quite sure he never thought about capturing Aerys or his hand. Just saying Jamie killing Aerys doesn't really seem justified to me, since he had other choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bironic Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, sifth said: Just saying Jamie killing Aerys doesn't really seem justified to me, since he had other choices. I agree with you on that. He had other choices. But IMHO it would have been out of character if he had chosen to capture Aerys instead of killing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Well Ned did rise in rebellion to his lawful king. We don't know why he did that yet, so I'm withholding judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 13 minutes ago, bent branch said: Well Ned did rise in rebellion to his lawful king. We don't know why he did that yet, so I'm withholding judgment. We know it, to keep his head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 40 minutes ago, bent branch said: Well Ned did rise in rebellion to his lawful king. We don't know why he did that yet, so I'm withholding judgment. The king tried to kill him, you might recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 1 hour ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said: We know it, to keep his head 48 minutes ago, sifth said: The king tried to kill him, you might recall. We don't know why Aerys called for their heads. Even crazy people have their reasons. It is in omitting little details like why Aerys asked for their heads in the first place that GRRM places his twists. ETA: Also, need to point out that is why Arryn rose in rebellion, we don't know what Ned and Robert were up to at the point Aerys called for their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 9 minutes ago, bent branch said: We don't know why Aerys called for their heads. Even crazy people have their reasons. It is in omitting little details like why Aerys asked for their heads in the first place that GRRM places his twists. ETA: Also, need to point out that is why Arryn rose in rebellion, we don't know what Ned and Robert were up to at the point Aerys called for their heads. They were visiting the man. They both loved him like a second father, you might recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 19 minutes ago, sifth said: They were visiting the man. They both loved him like a second father, you might recall. I do know the story and the only reason ever given for Aerys calling for their heads was that Aerys was crazy. That is not a reason. Them visiting Arryn may or may not have anything to do with Aerys calling for their head. It is hard to say since we don't know why Aerys wanted their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetta Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 Barristan has to edge out Ned. What honor is there in committing treason? Ned was harboring an extremely viable usurper (Jon) for 17 years. If monarchs are perpetually paranoid about one thing, it is being overthrown and I can assure you Robert would have seen that as some shady ass shit worthy of a good beheading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 9 hours ago, bent branch said: We don't know why Aerys called for their heads. Even crazy people have their reasons. It is in omitting little details like why Aerys asked for their heads in the first place that GRRM places his twists. ETA: Also, need to point out that is why Arryn rose in rebellion, we don't know what Ned and Robert were up to at the point Aerys called for their heads. You can expect the reason to be either paranoia or bad counsel... Either way the reason stands, ned rebels because he would be killed, good reason regardless of aerys's pov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosietesmen Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 i think i figured out the ending everybody gets an arrow to the knee and get slapped around by the white walkers then the dragons burn them all the end you can take that to the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Land's End Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 IMO the difference is that Barristan follows a honor-code while Ned follows his very own definition of honor. Not saying, Baristan is a sheep but he expresses discomfort with not having precise instructions and having to decide stuff on his own. If I remember correctly the ADwD chapters are the first time he’s acting on his own accord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 What does it mean to be "honorable"??? I'll go with the one I think of as the better human being, subjective, of course. For me, Ned>Barristan. In fact, I'd put a good many people over Barristan; I don't get the Barristan fetish. Barristan is the bodyguard for kings, sane, insane, psycho, drunk, he doesn't care. So he protects and enables Aerys. I can see him honorably preventing Jaime from killing Aerys, enabling his crazy king to burn down the city. He would have protected Joffrey, too, if Joffrey had allowed it. He'd have been the one to honorably pull his punches on Sansa. Ugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 18 hours ago, bent branch said: Well Ned did rise in rebellion to his lawful king. We don't know why he did that yet, so I'm withholding judgment. Actually since Ned never gave his vows to Aerys he never was his King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bent branch Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 11 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: Actually since Ned never gave his vows to Aerys he never was his King. Honorable people don't rely on technicalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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