Who was more honorable? Ned Stark or Ser Barristan

[Jon's Queen Consort]

14 minutes ago, bent branch said:

Honorable people don't rely on technicalities.

There is no technicality. Aerys broke the feudal contract between the Starks and himself the moment he tortured and killed Brandon, Rickard and asked for Ned's head for no reason. What Ned supposed to do? On the other hand Barristan had given an oath to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right or die in the attempt. When he Egg made him a knight he charged him  you to be brave,  to be just, to defend the young and innocent and to protect all women and he did nothing. 

Ned started a war against the man who was never his King, killed his father and brother and ordered his death for no reason. Barristan gave his oath and broke them all.

[Blackfish Tully]

On 9/23/2016 at 4:46 PM, Bironic said:

I couldn't have said it better.

Barristan is dutiful, Ned is honorable. Of course Ned is also dutiful and Barristan is also honorable, but it's not their most outstanding character element.

 

They both have an honor code but because of their widely different places in society they have different pressures placed on their honor . As Lord Paramount of the North Ned is the one giving orders most of the time , it's much easier to be honorable when you are the one in control of most decisions.

[Blackfish Tully]

1 hour ago, kimim said:

What does it mean to be "honorable"??? I'll go with the one I think of as the better human being, subjective, of course. For me, Ned>Barristan. In fact, I'd put a good many people over Barristan; I don't get the Barristan fetish.

 

I think people like Barristan because we see in ADWD that he is basically a really good guy who is trying to figure out what the right things to do in a pretty screwed up society . When he had a good king then he had no problem but when the kings turned bad he really had no idea of what to do but he has no malice in his heart , tries to protect children and his Knights in training and tries his best to make the best decisions in a really messed up situation. Also at over 60 years old he still is a bad ass warrior. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 5:39 PM, Stormking902 said:

a better question would be is there anyome more honorable then the Ned? Robb Stark tried buh still failed in comparison.....

An argument could be made for Dunk and Brienne.  Although since they both lie about knighthood, that might give Ned the edge still.  He sets the bar high.

[aryagonnakill#2]

4 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

I think people like Barristan because we see in ADWD that he is basically a really good guy who is trying to figure out what the right things to do in a pretty screwed up society . When he had a good king then he had no problem but when the kings turned bad he really had no idea of what to do but he has no malice in his heart , tries to protect children and his Knights in training and tries his best to make the best decisions in a really messed up situation. Also at over 60 years old he still is a bad ass warrior. 

Just had to agree with this.  Barristans chapter where is thinking about the upcoming fight and is just like nah I don't need a helm I don't want to sweat, and then just walks up to people without even a hint of fear and just says surrender or die.  Absolutely loved it.  Couldn't have made him out to be more badass.

[Sullen]

On 19/09/2016 at 5:39 PM, Stormking902 said:

a better question would be is there anyome more honorable then the Ned? Robb Stark tried buh still failed in comparison.....

Brienne and Davos are both far more honourable than Eddard was if we're talking major characters.

Elder Brother, Meribald, and Bonifer Hasty all seem honourable as all hell too in a pious sort of way, and without any of the negative marks Eddard has against him.

EDIT: Edmure strikes me as more honourable than Eddard too.

[kimim]

2 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

I think people like Barristan because we see in ADWD that he is basically a really good guy who is trying to figure out what the right things to do in a pretty screwed up society . When he had a good king then he had no problem but when the kings turned bad he really had no idea of what to do but he has no malice in his heart , tries to protect children and his Knights in training and tries his best to make the best decisions in a really messed up situation. Also at over 60 years old he still is a bad ass warrior. 

He is definitely a badass warrior, but he doesn't seem to have a self beyond the rulers he is obeying. If Aerys wants to get sadistic with his wife, Barristan makes it possible; Jaime is the one who agonizes over it later. If Dany doesn't want to kill child hostages, Barristan goes along with that, too. Barristan's existence revolves around keeping oaths, but Jaime is the one who notices that these oaths are contradictory:

Quote

So many vows...they make you swear and swear...No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.

Barristan is a very simple man. Given what he's surrounded by, the simplicity is not a compliment. imo.

[bent branch]

38 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

There is no technicality. Aerys broke the feudal contract between the Starks and himself the moment he tortured and killed Brandon, Rickard and asked for Ned's head for no reason. What Ned supposed to do? On the other hand Barristan had given an oath to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right or die in the attempt. When he Egg made him a knight he charged him  you to be brave,  to be just, to defend the young and innocent and to protect all women and he did nothing. 

Ned started a war against the man who was never his King, killed his father and brother and ordered his death for no reason. Barristan gave his oath and broke them all.

Was Ned acting as the Lord Paramount of the North? If yes, then Aerys was his king. So, yes, you are arguing a technicality.

Anyway back to my original point about the bolded. You, and a lot of people, are assuming that Aerys had no reason for what he did. As I said, even crazy people have their reasons. It is just that the winners haven't felt the need to tell the story from Aerys' point of view. When asked if he intends to do a prequel about Robert's Rebellion, GRRM has said there will be no need since everything will be revealed. This makes me entirely confident that we will eventually know exactly what Aerys' motivations were. Until that time, I will reserve judgment.

 

[Blackfish Tully]

19 minutes ago, kimim said:

 If Aerys wants to get sadistic with his wife, Barristan makes it possible; Jaime is the one who agonizes over it later. 

Where do you get this idea from? how does Barristan make it possible? and how do you know that Barristan does not agonize over it ? 

 

20 minutes ago, kimim said:

 If Dany doesn't want to kill child hostages, Barristan goes along with that, too. 

 

Barristan is the one who refused to let the Shavepate harm any of the hostages , that had nothing to do with Dany . 

 

22 minutes ago, kimim said:

but he doesn't seem to have a self beyond the rulers he is obeying. 

Barristan is a very simple man. Given what he's surrounded by, the simplicity is not a compliment. imo.

Did you not read ADWD ? Barristan without any orders overthrows Hizdahr (who is Dany's chosen King) and starts a war with the Yunkai, you think Dany would have been OK with those decisions? Barristan is a hell of a lot more complicated then you give him credit for . 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

18 hours ago, bent branch said:

Was Ned acting as the Lord Paramount of the North? If yes, then Aerys was his king. So, yes, you are arguing a technicality.

Not true. Aerys broke their contract before Ned became the Lord Paramount so he was never his king.

18 hours ago, bent branch said:

Anyway back to my original point about the bolded. You, and a lot of people, are assuming that Aerys had no reason for what he did. As I said, even crazy people have their reasons. It is just that the winners haven't felt the need to tell the story from Aerys' point of view. When asked if he intends to do a prequel about Robert's Rebellion, GRRM has said there will be no need since everything will be revealed. This makes me entirely confident that we will eventually know exactly what Aerys' motivations were. Until that time, I will reserve judgment.

Utter nonsense. Aerys was a mad person and he had no reason to kill them other than his madness. 

[Jeeves]

Ser Barristan is the more honorable of the two.

[Greywater-Watch]

As can be seen with Eddard Stark (we have his thoughts available, as he is a POV), he tries to be honourable.

Nearly all his decisions he questions himself (open to us readers), weighing by criteria like duty and honour and necessity. The feasability aspect and the consequences are of minor importance to him or he even does not hink of these at all.

Examples are:

- Should he accept Robert's offer to make him Hand or not?

- Should he try to avoid bloodshed and fear for children no matter who is the mother/father (=> he decides yes and informs Cersei of what he would do once Robert would return from the hunt). By offering Cersei and escape plan, he in a way betrays his king, but he puts a higher wight on the protection of the children than on 100% correct execution of his duty towards the king.

- When Robert is dying and asks Ned to write down his last will, he changes words ("the rightful heir") and lets Robert sign without informing him of this important change of content. But he does so because of pity and compassion to his old friend who he does not want to burden with the truth of his children during his last hours.

- When Varys tell him in the prison about Cersei's offer (admit treason to save Sansa), Ned obviously weighs his daughters life higher than the truth.

In ALL cases (and there are some other examples to be found) the criteria Ned uses to make his decision are on their own honourable, while discarding one to the other choice of final decision itself can of course be questioned - but that is  natural dilemma.

 

Now, let us look at Jaime killing Aerys (the Mad King). There arein fact 2 decisions he takes.

1. The first is to kill Aerys and his pyromancers - which we can agree on has an honorable Notion by saving the Population of Kings Landing

2. Remaining in the Kings Guard (remain close to Cersei) - well THAT is not honorable at all. Had he e.g. taken the Black (just like Bloodraven accepted a century before) - because part of his action was dishonorable - Jaime would not have been looked at as dishonorable as he is now.

 

Finally Barristan Selmy:

I only pick out the moment where he learns abot King Robert's last will, sees that Cersei tears the paper in four pieces, and all he does is mutter (or think?): Oh - this

AGOT Eddard-chapter, King Robert is just dead, Eddard (Hand of the King) summons the council: Ser Barristan Selmy was the first to answer the summons, immaculate in White cloak and enameled scales. "My Lords" he said, "my place is beside the Young Prince now. Pray give me leave to attend him." "Your place is here, Ser Barristan, " Ned told him. [...] He drew out Robert's last letter. "The king called me to his side last night and commanded me to record his final words. Lord Renly and Grand Maester Pycelle stood witness as Robert sealed the letter, to be opened by the council after his death. Ser Barristan, if you would be so kind?" The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard examined the paper. "King Robert's seal, and unbroken." He opened the letter and read. "Lord Eddard Stark is herein named Protector of the Realm, to rule as regent until the heir comes of age."

(My Annotation: Jeoffrey at his moment is 12 years old, "of age" means 16 years old).

The rest is known. In the throne room we see the following reaction of Barristan Selmy to Cersei, tearing Robert's last will into four pieces: "Those were the king's words," Ser Barristan said, shocked.

 

And that is all of resistance we see from Ser Barristan. He disobeye's King Robert's last will and he disobeyes the present Lord Protector of the Realm. Barristan Selmy is clearly dishonorable.

 

[Batbob45]

Eddard is more honorable. He told Cersei that he knew about her kids real parentage (dumb move but still honorable),  he also disagree with King Robert's order to kill Pregnant teen Dany,  While Ser Selmy  does have some honor, Barristan is more loyal than honorable(he  didn't stop the Mad King from doing evil deeds. he also didn't change sides during the war).

[The Commentator]

Barristan Selmy

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Eddard Stark hands down .

[Aetta]

On 9/29/2016 at 0:45 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Actually since Ned never gave his vows to Aerys he never was his King.

Just...no.  Torrhen knelt. Not to mention, Ned never once denied Aerys was his king, and I think that if GRRM wanted us to know that Ned did not regard Aerys as his king, he would have made it clear through Ned's thoughts and words.  Instead, Ned gives Jaime shit about being a kingslayer.  If he didn't regard Aerys the rightful king on the IT, what would be the point of all the Jaime shade?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

16 hours ago, Aetta said:

Just...no.  Torrhen knelt. Not to mention, Ned never once denied Aerys was his king, and I think that if GRRM wanted us to know that Ned did not regard Aerys as his king, he would have made it clear through Ned's thoughts and words.  Instead, Ned gives Jaime shit about being a kingslayer.  If he didn't regard Aerys the rightful king on the IT, what would be the point of all the Jaime shade?

So Ned was Torrhen?  The fact that Jaime broke his vows and killed the man he was protecting.