Who was more honorable? Ned Stark or Ser Barristan

[devilish]

On 22/09/2016 at 4:08 AM, The Golden Wolf said:

I see the things you use to show Ned's honor more as him just being a good person. Honor is not morality. Both Ned and Barristan were/are honorable moral men. It is just Barristan being just a Kingsguard sworn to the Iron Throne/King of the Seven Kingdoms had his morality decided by the person he was sworn to. Ned as a great Lord was free to do as he please so long as it did not interfere with the King's Law.

As long as the person sitting the Iron Throne was a good and just king a Kingsguard would never have to worry about going against their morals. Honor is doing your duty and keeping your word and both men did that.

Dayne standing by Rhaegar is not special seeing as Rhaegar saw fit to abduct a great Lord's daughter, who was betrothed to another great lord. 

Also Jaime murdering Aerys was both an immoral and dishonorable act.

.Hurting your wife's feelings by making her belief that you've lied with somebody else, killing your daughter's innocent pet and discarding your nephew's birthright and ending up having him treated like a bastard is not good. It may be considered honourable, because Ned was sacrificing all of this for the realm. Come to think of it, it could also be yet another classic case of Ned sucking Robert as per usual (and in the same way he basically told Lyanna to do when she shared her concerns about Robert).

In reality the honour portrayed in Westeros simply does not exist. Ultimately people are biased and even the best of people would do horrible things if pushed/placed into a horrible situation. I am sure that Dayne, Selmy and co knew that what Aerys was doing was wrong. However no one dared saying anything because they knew that they would be the ones who end up well cooked soon afterwards.

Rhaegar was probably a young man who fell in love with a beautiful young girl who did the same. He acted stupidly like most people would do in that circumstances. Its pretty much what Robb did when he broke his promise with the Freys to marry the Westerland girl. Lyanna's 'kidnap' wasn't the reason why there was the rebellion. Aerys actions (killing Brandon and Rickard and ordered Jon Arryn to send him Ned's and Robert's heads) did. Unfortunately at that level, stupid actions tend to have severe consequences. 

 

 

[The Golden Wolf]

2 hours ago, devilish said:

.Hurting your wife's feelings by making her belief that you've lied with somebody else, killing your daughter's innocent pet and discarding your nephew's birthright and ending up having him treated like a bastard is not good. It may be considered honourable, because Ned was sacrificing all of this for the realm. Come to think of it, it could also be yet another classic case of Ned sucking Robert as per usual (and in the same way he basically told Lyanna to do when she shared her concerns about Robert).

In reality the honour portrayed in Westeros simply does not exist. Ultimately people are biased and even the best of people would do horrible things if pushed/placed into a horrible situation. I am sure that Dayne, Selmy and co knew that what Aerys was doing was wrong. However no one dared saying anything because they knew that they would be the ones who end up well cooked soon afterwards.

Rhaegar was probably a young man who fell in love with a beautiful young girl who did the same. He acted stupidly like most people would do in that circumstances. Its pretty much what Robb did when he broke his promise with the Freys to marry the Westerland girl. Lyanna's 'kidnap' wasn't the reason why there was the rebellion. Aerys actions (killing Brandon and Rickard and ordered Jon Arryn to send him Ned's and Robert's heads) did. Unfortunately at that level, stupid actions tend to have severe consequences. 

 

 

1. Catelyn's feelings of hurt at Ned lying with another woman are overblown. She was upset that Ned brought the bastard home and that said bastard actually looked like Ned more than her legitimate children did. Her and Ned barely knew each other and only married because Hoster demanded that Ned follow through on the betrothal planned earlier between Catelyn and Brandon.
2. Killing Lady was the right thing to do...and it still makes me upset.  If not for the fact that Ned was so determined to find Jon Arryn's killer and why he was killed he could have turned around and headed back North. Lady and all the entire Stark household would have been safe then.
3. Jon has no birthright. he is a bastard born to a defeated enemy. any thoughts that he may not be is just speculation. 

They may have known what Aerys was doing was wrong but is what not their duty to stop him. Rhaegar or Tywin could have kept Aerys in check but they were no where to be found. and again it is not for the Kingsguard to police the actions of the King. They probably were hoping that Rhaegar would make a move to minimize his father, of course we know what Rhaegar did instead. A Kingsguard serves for life and as we have seen they can end up serving multiple kings. If there is a bad one they need only hope the next is better. I sometimes get the impression that Aerys' Kingsguard were not friendly with him. we would have to look to see who he inherited from the previous kings. 

[devilish]

49 minutes ago, The Golden Wolf said:

1. Catelyn's feelings of hurt at Ned lying with another woman are overblown. She was upset that Ned brought the bastard home and that said bastard actually looked like Ned more than her legitimate children did. Her and Ned barely knew each other and only married because Hoster demanded that Ned follow through on the betrothal planned earlier between Catelyn and Brandon.
2. Killing Lady was the right thing to do...and it still makes me upset.  If not for the fact that Ned was so determined to find Jon Arryn's killer and why he was killed he could have turned around and headed back North. Lady and all the entire Stark household would have been safe then.
3. Jon has no birthright. he is a bastard born to a defeated enemy. any thoughts that he may not be is just speculation. 

They may have known what Aerys was doing was wrong but is what not their duty to stop him. Rhaegar or Tywin could have kept Aerys in check but they were no where to be found. and again it is not for the Kingsguard to police the actions of the King. They probably were hoping that Rhaegar would make a move to minimize his father, of course we know what Rhaegar did instead. A Kingsguard serves for life and as we have seen they can end up serving multiple kings. If there is a bad one they need only hope the next is better. I sometimes get the impression that Aerys' Kingsguard were not friendly with him. we would have to look to see who he inherited from the previous kings. 

1. I don't think that they were overblown at all. Cat was a Tully ie a person programmed since birth to suck it up for honour and family. Despite everything, she always felt uneasy around Jon Snow.  I am not a big fan of Cat but I can sympathise with her on this regard. Her father had her promised to a Northerner who lacked the sophistication the Southern Lords would have. Brandon may have been rough around the edges but at least he's charismatic and he doesn't think twice to defend her honour in front of Littlefinger. Then that Northerner dies because he prefers risking his neck for his own sister then living the rest of his life with her and she ends up marrying the 'uglier', less charismatic, sloppy second she never even met, someone who just cant resist sucking at Robert who was once a Lord Paramount of a smaller and less powerful region then the North. When Ned finally returns home he is accompanied by a bastard and he expects everybody to treat him like a son of his. That causes alot of hurt, especially since Ned could have easily offloaded his bastard to some minor lord who would be more then honoured to raise him on Eddard's behalf.

2. Killing Lady wasn't the right thing to do. The direwolf was innocent and the wrong daughter ended up being punished for a crime Arya and/or Joffrey committed. Lord Paramount are expected to handle regional issues themselves and yet Robert keep messing in the Northern business time and time again. He decides that Sansa should marry Joffrey, that Ned should come to KL as hand, that Lady should be punished for another direwolf's fault. Also an innocent boy was killed and no one cared punishing the culprit. A real man should have gently reminded the King that he was among the same people who bled and fought to put a crown over his head.. A cynic would have gently reminded Robert that there was no way for Robert and his lovely family to make it out of Winterfell alive without his consent and even if by some miracle Robert does make it out of the North alive, he still needs the Riverlands and the North to keep his usurper's arse on his iron throne. While a good man would allow the king to do what the hell he wants and then refuse his offer to have Joffrey marry his daughter and of him becoming hand of the King. Next time Robert need the North and the Riverland's bannermen to come to his rescue then he would have to sweat for them. 

3. The true king of Westeros was Viserys. He was a true born Targ who had absolutely nothing to do with his brother/father's crime. Jon had more Targeryan blood in him then Robert ever had.

A knight is vowed to protect the vulnerable and the weak every time irrespective if the one hurting them is the king or a common thief. As said I don't condemn Selmy for doing what he did. Its pointless dying a cruel death for nothing. There again, when you consider Westeros crazy notion of honour then that was exactly what Selmy should have done

 

[Blackfish Tully]

On 9/22/2016 at 1:38 AM, Joy Hill said:

 

In a castle full of Targaryen loyalists? It would have been very risky.

What risk? Jaimie stabbed the King in the back and nobody did anything because there was nobody there to stop Jaimie . Jaimie could have easily knocked out Aerys and tied him up and then told Ned about the wildfire and let Robert execute Aerys but that's just not who Jaimie is , he acts without thinking and does not think about the consequences of his actions . 

 

[khal drogon]

This discussion do bring out the differences between "honor" and "duty" and being morally right. Barristan is easily the most "dutiful". He did what was expected from him as a KG extremely well and he succeeded as a KG but he did fail as a 'knight'. A knight is supposed to defend the weak but what if his duty is also to protect the most powerful person. Barristan chose to be a great KG rather than a great knight. That does not make him a coward. That does not make him not worthy of respect. In fact his loyalty is what impressed Robert to make him his KG. But it also doesn't make him morally correct. 

And how much I like Barristan I hate that he would have still served Joffery if he hadn't stripped his position.

 

 

[Blackfish Tully]

On 9/19/2016 at 6:01 PM, Lurid Jester said:

Never claimed he was talking about/to Selmy, just that the quote was applicable to him just as it was applicable to so many who served the mad king loyally... when it was safe.  

And what do you mean wrong source?  I grabbed the quote from the show (IMDb specifically) because I wasn't sure if it was a verbatim lift from the books as I was at work. 

With Selmy it was never about being "safe" , Barristan the Bold never once worried about his safety , he single handed attacked Duskendaile (he had to convince Tywin to let him do it), he cut through the Golden Company to fight Maely the Monstrous in single combat , he defeated Simon Toyne in single combat and defeated both the Bastard of Titan and Khrazz when he was well into his later years . If he was trying to be safe he would not have done any of these deeds. It would have been much safer for him to take Joffreys offer of a keep then travel across the world as a old man looking for one final chance to serve an honorable king . 

 

[Batman]

Selmy is a hypocrite (like most Knights) who has flip flopped a few times (Targ, Baratheon, back to Targ). Ned is steadfast in his beliefs and actions throughout.

 

[Joy Hill]

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

What risk? Jaimie stabbed the King in the back and nobody did anything because there was nobody there to stop Jaimie . Jaimie could have easily knocked out Aerys and tied him up and then told Ned about the wildfire and let Robert execute Aerys but that's just not who Jaimie is , he acts without thinking and does not think about the consequences of his actions . 

 

There were people who might have stopped Jaime : the Red Keep garrison, whose loyalty presumably belonged to Aerys. Let's assume Jaime successfully managed to knock out Aerys (which is easier said than done, by doing that he might kill him or simply disorient him) and tied him up. What happens then? A possible scenario is that the Red Keep garrison decides to fight the traitor who is holding the king captive, frees Aerys, who then proceeds with the wildfire plot.

And this isn't very important, but Jaime stabbing Aerys in the back is a show invention.

But anyway, back to the topic. The fact that some people on this thread are saying Jaime killing Aerys was wrong no matter what proves that we all perceive honor differently. By Westeros standards, Barristan is probably a paragon of honor. However, it's possible that some people Aerys burned or raped while Barristan watched and did nothing thought of him as "no true knight".

[Blackfish Tully]

34 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

There were people who might have stopped Jaime : the Red Keep garrison, whose loyalty presumably belonged to Aerys. Let's assume Jaime successfully managed to knock out Aerys (which is easier said than done, by doing that he might kill him or simply disorient him) and tied him up. What happens then? A possible scenario is that the Red Keep garrison decides to fight the traitor who is holding the king captive, frees Aerys, who then proceeds with the wildfire plot.

Kings Landing was being sacked by the Lannister and everybody was panicked and running for their lives so you think that any Red Keep guardsmen are going to stick around and attack Jaimie Lannister one of the most dangerous swordsmen alive ? I doubt that 

 

36 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

But anyway, back to the topic. The fact that some people on this thread are saying Jaime killing Aerys was wrong no matter what proves that we all perceive honor differently. By Westeros standards, Barristan is probably a paragon of honor. However, it's possible that some people Aerys burned or raped while Barristan watched and did nothing thought of him as "no true knight".

Jaimie watched and did nothing just like the rest of Aery's Kingsguard while people were burned and raped . It was only when his own life and the life of his father was at stake did he move against Aerys. 

[Joy Hill]

19 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Kings Landing was being sacked by the Lannister and everybody was panicked and running for their lives so you think that any Red Keep guardsmen are going to stick around and attack Jaimie Lannister one of the most dangerous swordsmen alive ? I doubt that 

 

When the Westerling and Lord Crakehall burst in the throne room, Targaryen loyalists were still fighting in the castle. If they had come upon Jaime and Aerys before the Lannister men and saw the king alive and tied up, there's a possibility that they would have fought to free him. And remember, during the battle of the Blackwater about a hundred men were brave enough to cross the bridge of boats. I'm sure as many men would have been brave enough to fight Jaime.

31 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Jaimie watched and did nothing just like the rest of Aery's Kingsguard while people were burned and raped . It was only when his own life and the life of his father was at stake did he move against Aerys. 

The topic is not Barristan's honor vs Jaime's honor so I won't discuss it at lenght (an interesting subject, but it might derail the thread). But yes, Aerys' victims might have felt the same way about Jaime (who was generally considered a golden young knight at that point). But according to Gerold Hightower, Jaime at least looked like he felt that what he was witnessing was wrong.

When Aerys was raping Rhaella, Jaime said that they were sworn to protect her too. Darry replied "We are, but not from him.". I think Barristan would have given Jaime the same answer. But what would Ned have done in Darry's place? I'm not sure, but I see him as more likely than Barristan to agree with Jaime.

[Bironic]

13 hours ago, khal drogon said:

This discussion do bring out the differences between "honor" and "duty" and being morally right. Barristan is easily the most "dutiful". He did what was expected from him as a KG extremely well and he succeeded as a KG but he did fail as a 'knight'. A knight is supposed to defend the weak but what if his duty is also to protect the most powerful person. Barristan chose to be a great KG rather than a great knight. That does not make him a coward. That does not make him not worthy of respect. In fact his loyalty is what impressed Robert to make him his KG. But it also doesn't make him morally correct. 

And how much I like Barristan I hate that he would have still served Joffery if he hadn't stripped his position.

 

 

I couldn't have said it better.

Barristan is dutiful, Ned is honorable. Of course Ned is also dutiful and Barristan is also honorable, but it's not their most outstanding character element.

10 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

When the Westerling and Lord Crakehall burst in the throne room, Targaryen loyalists were still fighting in the castle. If they had come upon Jaime and Aerys before the Lannister men and saw the king alive and tied up, there's a possibility that they would have fought to free him. And remember, during the battle of the Blackwater about a hundred men were brave enough to cross the bridge of boats. I'm sure as many men would have been brave enough to fight Jaime.

The topic is not Barristan's honor vs Jaime's honor so I won't discuss it at lenght (an interesting subject, but it might derail the thread). But yes, Aerys' victims might have felt the same way about Jaime (who was generally considered a golden young knight at that point). But according to Gerold Hightower, Jaime at least looked like he felt that what he was witnessing was wrong.

When Aerys was raping Rhaella, Jaime said that they were sworn to protect her too. Darry replied "We are, but not from him.". I think Barristan would have given Jaime the same answer. But what would Ned have done in Darry's place? I'm not sure, but I see him as more likely than Barristan to agree with Jaime.

I agree that it took some courage to kill Aerys while the loyalists were still fighting, but it certainly wasn't as dangerous as it would have been before the battle of the trident. I agree with you that Ned would have agreed with Jaime more than Barristan. Hell Ned might have actually tried to save Rhaella, even if that meant his life. Ned is probably honorable/stupid enough to try such a thing.

He tried to save Joffrey from Robert's wrath after all.

[Blackfish Tully]

2 hours ago, Bironic said:

I couldn't have said it better.

Barristan is dutiful, Ned is honorable. Of course Ned is also dutiful and Barristan is also honorable, but it's not their most outstanding character element.

 

Ned has a huge advantage over Barristan in that he is Lord Paramount of the North while Barristan is a sworn member of the Kingsguard . It's a hell of a lot easier to keep your honor when you are the one giving orders versus being the one who has to follow the orders . When Ned and Barristan disagreed with Robert about killing Dany Ned could resign but Barristan did not have that option . Barristan swore an oath to the Seven Gods to obey and protect the King and  he believes in the Seven Gods and takes his oath very seriously , he has to follow orders or he's breaking his vow and throwing away his honor while Ned apparently can just up and quit and go home any time  he wants , it makes it much easier to be honorable . It's telling that Ned never had nothing but positive thoughts about Barristan maybe because he understands better then most what Barristan had to deal with. 

[sifth]

8 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Ned has a huge advantage over Barristan in that he is Lord Paramount of the North while Barristan is a sworn member of the Kingsguard . It's a hell of a lot easier to keep your honor when you are the one giving orders versus being the one who has to follow the orders . When Ned and Barristan disagreed with Robert about killing Dany Ned could resign but Barristan did not have that option . Barristan swore an oath to the Seven Gods to obey and protect the King and  he believes in the Seven Gods and takes his oath very seriously , he has to follow orders or he's breaking his vow and throwing away his honor while Ned apparently can just up and quit and go home any time  he wants , it makes it much easier to be honorable . It's telling that Ned never had nothing but positive thoughts about Barristan maybe because he understands better then most what Barristan had to deal with. 

 

Yup, the fact that Ned said the guy was the truest knight in the realm to Bran, even though they fought on opposite sides of the war, really says a lot. Barristan likewise tried to tell Dany that Ned was a good man in ADwD, but she wouldn't listen to him. I kind of like how both men admired and respected each other.

[Bironic]

1 minute ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Ned has a huge advantage over Barristan in that he is Lord Paramount of the North while Barristan is a sworn member of the Kingsguard . It's a hell of a lot easier to keep your honor when you are the one giving orders versus being the one who has to follow the orders . When Ned and Barristan disagreed with Robert about killing Dany Ned could resign but Barristan did not have that option . Barristan swore an oath to the Seven Gods to obey and protect the King and  he believes in the Seven Gods and takes his oath very seriously , he has to follow orders or he's breaking his vow and throwing away his honor while Ned apparently can just up and quit and go home any time  he wants , it makes it much easier to be honorable . It's telling that Ned never had nothing but positive thoughts about Barristan maybe because he understands better then most what Barristan had to deal with. 

You are certainly right about this. They are in different positions.

But It's not that Ned didn't have obligations or oaths of fealty towards his king. And it wasn't easy for Ned to resign, he actually considered that Robert could retaliate, and he didn't want to leave his friend after all.

Well you could argue that Barristan already besmirched his honor when he followed Robert in the first place.

IMHO ned is more honorable, even though I agree that Barristan lived in a more difficult position as KG of a madman and an usurper.

[Blackfish Tully]

45 minutes ago, Bironic said:

You are certainly right about this. They are in different positions.

But It's not that Ned didn't have obligations or oaths of fealty towards his king. And it wasn't easy for Ned to resign, he actually considered that Robert could retaliate, and he didn't want to leave his friend after all.

 

it might not have been easy for Ned to resign but at least he had the option but Barristan could not resign , he did not even have that option. 

 

45 minutes ago, Bironic said:

Well you could argue that Barristan already besmirched his honor when he followed Robert in the first place.

I disagree , Barristan gave everything he had had for his King and was badly wounded and nearly killed on the Trident . When he recovered from his wounds Robert was King on the Iron Throne , acknowledged by all the Great Lords of Westeroes and he was a great Knight and had even saved Barristan's life after the Trident, bending the knee to Robert did not smirch his honor at least Ned never thought that .  

[Bironic]

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

it might not have been easy for Ned to resign but at least he had the option but Barristan could not resign , he did not even have that option. 

 

I disagree , Barristan gave everything he had had for his King and was badly wounded and nearly killed on the Trident . When he recovered from his wounds Robert was King on the Iron Throne , acknowledged by all the Great Lords of Westeroes and he was a great Knight and had even saved Barristan's life after the Trident, bending the knee to Robert did not smirch his honor at least Ned never thought that .  

Well, that's the point of being a KG, isn't it? You serve or you die, there is no middle ground.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Bironic said:

Well, that's the point of being a KG, isn't it? You serve or you die, there is no middle ground.

So Barry's crime is not getting killed? Come on, he was severely hurt trying to protect Rhaegar. The guy did his duty and better than most men would have. 

[The Golden Wolf]

A thing that irks me that I see on this board is that some insist on calling Aerys' Kingsguard the worst ever based upon the fact they never stopped him from committing the acts he did. They think this despite the fact Aerys' reigned just fine up until Duskendale with everything quickly coming to a crash thereafter.

Is it right to blame the Kingsguard for the actions of the king they are honor bound to serve and obey? Are people once again putting their own modern morals and ideals of honor upon a setting that does not ascribe to them?

I for do not fault the Kingsguard but the people who were around Aerys who could have curbed and curtailed his cruelty and excesses. 

[INCBlackbird]

I think Barristan, and that is not a good thing. honor is an excuse to make something immoral sound like the right thing (see protecting the king at all cost no matter what he does because he is the king) At least Ned puts aside his honor sometimes in order to do the right thing. (not enough to my liking though)

[INCBlackbird]

18 hours ago, Batman said:

Selmy is a hypocrite (like most Knights) who has flip flopped a few times (Targ, Baratheon, back to Targ). Ned is steadfast in his beliefs and actions throughout.

 

This! and Jaime is the only one who ever noticed how hypocritical the concept of knights are in this world. he's the only one who isn't a hypocrite and people hate him for it. I love him for it. 

Ned is a hypocrite too though, a less obvious one than Barristan but the guy was so concerned with not killing childen yet he was totally willing to start a war to put "the rightful" king on the throne, as if thousends of children wouldn't die in that war (but I guess since they were lowborn it wouldn't matter...?) and the best thing is that he fought against the rightful king when he showed himself to be crazy, at that point you would think that Ned would realise that "the rightful king" is a meaningless concept...