No Apples please: allergies and the (almost) adult

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

12 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

You've totally misunderstood my point though and continued to ridicule me (Theda) and my logic. I never said every allergy and illness should be catered for everywhere in the world. I never said that at all. But someone in this situation ASKED for this concession to be made, or they made aware their allergy so I see it as reasonable to refrain from a certain food in the few places/situations mentioned. Don't really appreciate, while I'm offline and not able to reply coming to a thread and seeing my 'logic' questioned

Theda,

I certainly have no intention of ridiculing you.  I'm questioning what you said and examining the logical extensions of the statement you made.  It would be helpful if you would elaborate. 

What is your position on the point I made about public spaces that serve food? Should things like Apples, Nuts, and other foods that cause severe allergic reactions be banned from cafeterias and restaurants?

Should the cafeteria on this campus refrain from serving all apples and apple based foods based upon this one student?  What if there is another student with a severe nut allergy,  A student with a severe Milk allergy?  As IP pointed out most processed foods have some trace elements of nuts in them. 

I'm trying to see where you believe the line should be drawn, not to mock but to better understand your point.

[Jo498]

Isn't it for food allergies necessary to put the stuff in one's mouth? This is why a broad ban around small children is sensible as there is a reasonable chance they'll eat anything. And that's also why even traces of allergenes should be mentioned in food descriptions.

But an 18 year old who knows what s/he is allergic against should have no problems to avoid raw apples or apple juice. I mean, if someone spilled apple juice in class I would expect him to clean the mess up regardless of health issues of other persons. I also think that a 18 year old should be able to address such an issue "locally", i.e. to tell people he actually interacts with and ask them to avoid the allergene when interacting with him. But I find it exaggerated to have a broad ban to respect the anonymity of the person; it is is not a venereal disease or something embarrassing.

[Theda Baratheon]

3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Theda,

I certainly have no intention of ridiculing you.  I'm questioning what you said and examining the logical extensions of the statement you made.  It would be helpful if you would elaborate.  What is your position on the point I made about public spaces that serve food? Should things like Apples, Nuts, and other foods that cause severe allergic reactions be banned from cafeterias and resteraunts?

I think I'm being pretty clear, but okay. No. They shouldn't be banned, unless someone makes their allergy known so for that for that one day their safety is being respected. This is for cafeterias. In a restaurant someone with a deadly allergy should look after themselves and make the decision to go to a certain restaurant. They can't reasonably expect that in a place like a restauraunt that every one in the building is going to just not eat a certain meal of they've had no notice beforehand. If they contacted the restauraunt beforehand and asked the restsuraunt they would be leaving it up to the restauraunt to decide whether or not they want to cater to that one customer whilst potentially upsetting others or whether they're going to send an email to people who have prebooked tables and telling anyone coming into the restaurant that they have a person currently there with an allergy and would they be comfortable not eating a certain kind of food. That would be up to them but unless someone has made an allergy known then no places where food is served shouldn't just ban any type of food without cause. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I think I'm being pretty clear, but okay. No. They shouldn't be banned, unless someone makes their allergy known so for that for that one day their safety is being respected. This is for cafeterias. In a restaurant someone with a deadly allergy should look after themselves and make the decision to go to a certain restaurant. They can't reasonably expect that in a place like a restauraunt that every one in the building is going to just not eat a certain meal of they've had no notice beforehand. If they contacted the restauraunt beforehand and asked the restsuraunt they would be leaving it up to the restauraunt to decide whether or not they want to cater to that one customer whilst potentially upsetting others or whether they're going to send an email to people who have prebooked tables and telling anyone coming into the restaurant that they have a person currently there with an allergy and would they be comfortable not eating a certain kind of food. That would be up to them but unless someone has made an allergy known then no places where food is served shouldn't just ban any type of food without cause.

Theda,

Okay, interesting, so if the Student with the apple allergy is going to be eating three meals a day in the Cafeteria and notifies the school no apples will be served in the cafeteria until there is notice that this student is eating elsewhere, same thing with nuts, milk, and other allergies?

[Theda Baratheon]

1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Theda,

Okay, interesting, so if the Student with the apple allergy is going to be eating three meals a day in the Cafeteria and notifies the school no apples will be served in the cafeteria until there is notice that this student is eating elsewhere, same thing with nuts, milk, and other allergies?

I don't run a cafeteria or restauraunt so I don't know what the outcome would or should be but I don't see it as totally unreasonable to ASK a food establishment anything. It's different if it's in a classroom where food shouldn't really be consumed anyway or a plane journey that is a very small space. It would be up to the cafateria whether or not they wanted to enter into an agreement with the student but I don't think that student can expect that a place that sells food will totally refrain from ever serving a particular kind of food unless asked. And if told "no" then unfortunately that student needs to make the decision for their own safety whether or not they want to eat 3 meals in that particular place. 

[Whitestripe]

56 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

As I pointed out there are people severely allergic to bee stings.  We cannot guarantee the absense of bees and there isn't really a problem with people bringing bees into class rooms.  

Funny you should mention bees. We have a problem in our building with bees every fall, and have had them coming in the vents to the photocopy room two years in a row. Last week there were several. I called our custodian, who called his supervisor. Meanwhile, I asked around to see if anyone was allergic. One of the piano instructors says "Me! But don't worry, I've got an epi pen." He still used the room and made copies until the bees could be removed. 

 

 

 

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

27 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I don't run a cafeteria or restauraunt so I don't know what the outcome would or should be but I don't see it as totally unreasonable to ASK a food establishment anything. It's different if it's in a classroom where food shouldn't really be consumed anyway or a plane journey that is a very small space. It would be up to the cafateria whether or not they wanted to enter into an agreement with the student but I don't think that student can expect that a place that sells food will totally refrain from ever serving a particular kind of food unless asked. And if told "no" then unfortunately that student needs to make the decision for their own safety whether or not they want to eat 3 meals in that particular place.

Theda,

Okay, that seems reasonable to me.

What concerns me (generally not just to Theda) is when this is made an ADA or an "accessablity" issue.  What if a student insists that eating in the cafeteria is an intigral part of the college experience and that an accomodation like seperate meals served in their dorm would isolate them from the rest of the community and as such any food or foods that could cause a severe allergic reaction should be banned from the cafeteria.  Should such an accomodation request be acceded to?

[Gertrude]

Theda makes a good point most people are glossing over. As far as we know, the student asked and the college found it a reasonable request. I don't know what went into their decision making, but they felt it was appropriate to institute a ban. Could be that the medical evidence was compelling that it was a serious enough threat, possibly they were just covering their ass. Either way, they wanted the student to attend their college enough to go to this length. they could have said no, sorry. Most of the negativity is directed at the student who should know how to reduce the risk in the real world. Ultimately it's the college that said yes.

As for the bees, I'm sure the instructor could have avoided the copy room and made arrangements until the problem was taken care of, but he chose not to. I doubt anyone would have blinked an eye if he asked favors from others to make his copies and explained why. I like that he didn't, but that's beside the point.

[Gertrude]

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

What if a student insists that eating in the cafeteria is an intigral part of the college experience and that an accomodation like seperate meals served in their dorm would isolate them from the rest of the community and as such any food or foods that could cause a severe allergic reaction should be banned from the cafeteria.  Should such an accomodation request be acceded to?

Nope.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Nope.

Why not?  Is the social interaction of a mass cafeteria not part of the social experience particularly of a small residential college? 
 

(For the record I went to such a college where there was one major cafeteria where most people ate all their meals.  There were a few other places to eat but the Caf was where we all gathered to socialize and take our meals.  It was part of the experience.)

[Whitestripe]

4 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Theda makes a good point most people are glossing over. As far as we know, the student asked and the college found it a reasonable request. I don't know what went into their decision making, but they felt it was appropriate to institute a ban. Could be that the medical evidence was compelling that it was a serious enough threat, possibly they were just covering their ass. Either way, they wanted the student to attend their college enough to go to this length. they could have said no, sorry. Most of the negativity is directed at the student who should know how to reduce the risk in the real world. Ultimately it's the college that said yes.

 

Actually, the whole point of my initial post (and clearly I am not very articulate) is what is a reasonable request? Is it ok for students (or people on planes or anywhere else) to ask for special accommodations or are we, as a society (and at colleges in particular), growing more and more entitled? Are we really all special snowflakes that need to be treated with kid gloves, or do we all just need to suck it up and deal with life? 

[Gertrude]

Because I don't think that restricting the food at a place who's primary purpose is to serve food is a tiny sacrifice. That's about it. I don't have any better argument than my gut and common sense.

In time it might become a thing that people agree is reasonable, but I don't and I'm betting a good many people don't. If it does happen, I'm willing to bet it's because the college decides it wants to accommodate their students because they are the profit stream. What's more American than the invisible hand of the free market?

[Gertrude]

Whitestripe - I get it. Mainly I fall on the side of suck it up and deal with it. However, I don't know why the college decided it was a reasonable request. The allergy might be just that severe, or perhaps they were chicken-shit and covering their asses. The student asked, and they said yes. I would not have faulted the college if they said no. I have no reason to believe that either party acted in a manner other than reasonable, so I don't see the problem in this situation.

[Weeping Sore]

I have a pretty severe allergy to cats. I've been hospitalized, one time for five days and had to be on a respirator. But do I tell people to not have cats? Or to change in a cat-free clean room before they go out of the house? It's on me. If I see cat hair on someone's sweater, I don't go in for the hug. If I shake hands with said cat-hair on sweater person, I wash my hands soon after and make sure not to touch my face. I politely decline invitations to dinner parties if they have cats in the house.

It seems like other adults can take similar precautions if there's a chance they have touched an allergen, full-blown anaphalaxis seems to be extremely rare short of actual ingesting. And nuts are really good for you and make an excellent snack if you're not allergic. I dunno, I guess I side with tidy nut eaters who wash their hands.

[MercenaryChef]

I have a very serious shellfish allergy. It makes cooking hard as I cannot touch raw shellfish and obviously cannot taste my own dishes. This all makes me very sensitive on the subject of allergies. 

But as sensitive as I am to allergies I think unless contact is absolutely life threatening these concessions are kind of over the top to me.

[Dr. Pepper]

The accommodation in the OP seems pretty reasonable.  The request is for classrooms and labs, not dorms or cafeterias.  In general, people shouldn't be eating in classrooms or labs anyway and it's fairly easy to refrain from apple drinks for 45 minutes a couple of times a week.  Those who might need the snack or drink for blood sugar purposes can perhaps find a solution that works for both themselves and the allergy sufferer.  It's even reasonable to suggest students wash hands before coming to lab or class if they've recently had apple products.  

It's over-the-top to suggest these products can't even be carried in a student's bag while in the same room with the allergy sufferer.  When you get to that point, you might as well start sending people through decontamination or having students launder their bags every time they have an apple in it.  

Reasonable accommodation can easily turn to unreasonable demands.  The thing with no eating on the plane is one of those unreasonable things.  It's happened with a flight I was on as well.  The crew asked that no one eat nut products due to a person with a nut allergy on the flight.  It was a long haul flight, so that demand was practically impossible considering nut products are in nearly everything.  It's not even at all likely that simply consuming nuts around the same area as an allergy sufferer would lead to an adverse reaction.  

So, reasonable accommodation is refraining from eating or drinking apple products in a lab or classroom or nuts immediately next to someone with a nut allergy.  An unreasonable accommodation would be telling people not to eat them ever if on campus or not to eat all during a long 12 hour flight.  

On a somewhat related note, we need to be doing a lot more to combat this rapid increase in food allergies

[Whitestripe]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

It's over-the-top to suggest these products can't even be carried in a student's bag while in the same room with the allergy sufferer.  When you get to that point, you might as well start sending people through decontamination or having students launder their bags every time they have an apple in it. 

The email actually does ask just that.  Below is part of the email. In fact, reading it again, it doesn't say anything about eating in the classrooms, it just says leave them out of the classroom.

Please refrain from bringing any apples or products with apples in and around these rooms. Be especially careful if you plan to have an event in any of these classrooms catered by XXX, etc. that the menu not include apples or apple products.

 

[Raja]

17 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

An unreasonable accommodation would be telling people not to eat them ever if on campus or not to eat all during a long 12 hour flight.  

Hmmm - I don't know. I think in planes it's slightly different because 1) Getting proper medical help won't be easy. 2) Even if they have an epi pen, it might not work or something might go wrong. I'd be more than willing not to eat during a 12 hour flight. An full blown anaphylaxis shock reaction in a plane? There are times where breathing can be severely impaired and you'll have to intubate the patient. You can go a step further if there's no improvement and perform a tracheostomy. All of that in a plane? - Yeah, no thanks. 

That being said, I'm almost certain planes carry spare epi pens ( if they don't they certainly should). Plus,  Either ways, 12 hours is fairly short and it doesn't seem like *that* much of a sacrifice to me. 

[Dr. Pepper]

23 minutes ago, Raja said:

Hmmm - I don't know. I think in planes it's slightly different because 1) Getting proper medical help won't be easy. 2) Even if they have an epi pen, it might not work or something might go wrong. I'd be more than willing not to eat during a 12 hour flight. An full blown anaphylaxis shock reaction in a plane? There are times where breathing can be severely impaired and you'll have to intubate the patient. You can go a step further if there's no improvement and perform a tracheostomy. All of that in a plane? - Yeah, no thanks. 

That being said, I'm almost certain planes carry spare epi pens ( if they don't they certainly should). Plus,  Either ways, 12 hours is fairly short and it doesn't seem like *that* much of a sacrifice to me. 

The culprit for these potential allergy attacks in planes is almost certainly touching uncleaned surfaces rather than someone many rows back eating a meal with peanut products.  So, clean the trays and the armrests and the seats if you have an allergy because you never know if the person who sat there before you was eating a bag of peanuts and then touching everything without washing their hands.  

And no, 12 hours is not a short period of time, especially for the elderly, the young, the infirm, those with blood sugar illnesses like diabetes, those who require food with their medicine, those who did not sign up to fast all fucking day because one person hasn't read any studies on how allergens are actually transferred during flights.  

[Weeping Sore]

How about the airlines put out a little pastic mat with edges that are curled up slightly and contain a drawstring on the tray table, as well as moiste towlettes. If people want to eat their allergenic snack they may do so in this tray/bag, they wipe their hands with the towlette and the attendant pulls the bag closed and disposes of it, eliminating the residue.