Rhaegars orders for Gerold, Arthur and Oswell at the Tower of Joy.

[kimim]

A question about Dany's vision in the HotU:

Quote

"Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked. "He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads."

 

The baby is Aegon, Rhaegar's second child, born after Rhaegar meets Lyanna at Harrenhal. Aegon is the son of a Dornish woman and a Targ. I understand how Aegon might be tptwp, but why is his song "the song of ice and fire"? That song specifically refers to a Stark-Targ marriage, or so I thought.

Rhaegar then says "there must be one more," as "the dragon has three heads." This is pretty dire, as he probably just found out that his wife won't be able to have more children, which means that he can only have "two heads," with her. Was this pretty scene followed by Rhaegar telling Elia that he must leave to make that third head? If he had Lyanna in mind (he'd already met her) then wouldn't her children be the true children of "ice and fire"?

[Makk]

14 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The thing with this is that if we go by Danys vision. Which I believe 100% to be Rhaegar with Elia and Aegon, this means he still believed Aegon was the Prince that was promised when he was born. Which was at the end of/turn of 281/282AC.

Danys Vision:
"He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." 

This is actually a few months after the Tourney at Harrenhal and Rhaegar 'choosing' Lyanna'. So he can't have changed his mind before this to choose Lyanna. 

Basically, even after choosing Lyanna to birth the third head of the Dragon, Rhaegar still believes(wrongly of course!) that his son Aegon is the Prince that was promised.

To be honest I had never bothered to line up the dates and had always assumed Aegon had already been born before the tourney. Is there enough information to make those dates perfectly accurate? Regardless, I still don't think that disproves it. He probably only became aware of Lyanna at the tourney and "abducted" her sometime around a year later. There is still plenty of time to have Aegon born and then change his mind on the prophecy after coming to the rather obvious conclusion that Aegon doesn't fit with the song of ice and fire which he specifically mentions in the vision.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

21 minutes ago, kimim said:

A question about Dany's vision in the HotU:

The baby is Aegon, Rhaegar's second child, born after Rhaegar meets Lyanna at Harrenhal. Aegon is the son of a Dornish woman and a Targ. I understand how Aegon might be tptwp, but why is his song "the song of ice and fire"? That song specifically refers to a Stark-Targ marriage, or so I thought.

Rhaegar then says "there must be one more," as "the dragon has three heads." This is pretty dire, as he probably just found out that his wife won't be able to have more children, which means that he can only have "two heads," with her. Was this pretty scene followed by Rhaegar telling Elia that he must leave to make that third head? If he had Lyanna in mind (he'd already met her) then wouldn't her children be the true children of "ice and fire"?

I know that there is a confirmed email sent once back in the day saying it is Elia in the vision... But unfortunately that reduces this scene to basically a big whoops on Rhaegar's part. Unless you think Aegon is still alive...

Also, often overlooked is that he looks at Dany... Not Jon, not Tyrion, not fucking Daario... Dany

Of course in my timeline Lyanna is pregnant with Jon at the time this vision is showing, so Dany is the "one more".

[kimim]

36 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I know that there is a confirmed email sent once back in the day saying it is Elia in the vision... But unfortunately that reduces this scene to basically a big whoops on Rhaegar's part. Unless you think Aegon is still alive...

Also, often overlooked is that he looks at Dany... Not Jon, not Tyrion, not fucking Daario... Dany

Of course in my timeline Lyanna is pregnant with Jon at the time this vision is showing, so Dany is the "one more".

It's obvious that Elia is the woman: She's holding a baby named Aegon. This is the second baby, as Rhaegar says that he needs one more for his three heads. Aegon is Rhaegar's second child.

Rhaegar could be talking metaphorically about a ruler that unifies "ice and fire."

In Storm, Meera says that she both hates and loves the mountains. Bran says that she can't feel both ways:

Quote

 

"Because they're different...Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

 

 

Possibly, the "song of ice and fire" can be any king or queen's, whatever their parentage, so long as they realize that ice or fire, "the land is one." It can be Aegon's, or Davos's, or Jon's, or Dany's, which is why Rhaegar looks at her. She's in a position to rule. Things like warging and birthing dragons go along bloodlines, but the ability to unify the land has nothing to do with genes.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Well, we can reasonably assume that Rhaegar changed his mind on the identity of the prophesied prince atleast once. I think he first thought it referred to himself, because of his sudden inclination to become a warrior. Then, for unknown reasons (or possibly the appearance of the comet) he believed Aegon was the PtwP, who's song was the SoIaF.

Yeah, that is what supported by the text. Rhaegar was first an avid reader until he read a certain prophecy and was either told by the people (his parents) who gave him that prophecy to read that he was the best candidate to be the prophesied savior. From that point on he thought he had to be a warrior, not the other way around.

But we now also know that the prophecy of the promised prince and the search for him was shaping Targaryen history and politics at least since the days of Aegon V, perhaps even earlier than that. Aemon tells us that Summerhall caused Rhaegar (and possibly also Jaehaerys II, Aerys, and Rhaella) to believe that he was the promised prince. But people would have come up with that interpretation long before Rhaegar learned to read. Jaehaerys II had received a prophecy and during his reign and for the most of Aerys' the promised prince was either Rhaegar or Rhaegar was the one from whom he would be descended. While Aerys and Rhaella had but one living child that was the only option.

But my idea is that Rhaegar was actually both uncomfortable with that role and the expectations projected into him and eventually dismissed the idea, perhaps when his parents failed to produce more children who could be the other two dragon heads. Once Viserys was born Aerys might have decided he was the special guy and Rhaegar might have begun wondering whether it made sense that he was the guy considering that nothing happened to reinforce his beliefs.

To begin believing it must have been a next generation prince he already had to have doubts when the comet was seen in the sky in the night of Aegon's conception. Else he would never have seen the comet as a sign that Aegon was important nor would he have made the connection back to the night of the boy's conception. He wouldn't have known in the night he had sex with Elia that they would conceive a child then.

The idea that he changed his mind again is possible but not very likely on the basis of the evidence we have as of now.

6 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

The decision to elope with Lyanna was a terrible decision, any way you cut it-  which is why I feel he would have needed some reason to rationalise this decision to himself, as humans are often wont to do with bad decisions they make. My suggestion is - maybe he changed his mind again about the PtwP, reasoning that the child might have to be a Targ-Stark child if his was to be the "Song of Ice and Fire", going by the name of the Pact signed all those years ago. Whether he was right, or not, is a matter of debate.

I think the hints we have are enough that Rhaegar was both willing and capable of taking Lyanna simply because he strongly believed Aegon needed another dragon head, another Targaryen prince as companion to fulfill the prophecy and succeed. As things stand now there is no narrative need for him to change his mind again to make the story convincing. The vision in the House of the Undying combined with our knowledge that Elia could no longer bear children confirmed that.

6 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

There may be a parallel here with Jon, his son -  he tried to reason with himself that he was sleeping with Ygritte because he had to keep up the appearance of having defected to the wildlings, to save the Watch. But it is equally true that he loved her and loved being with her. To assuage the guilt he felt in breaking his vows, he would tell himself that he was doing it out of duty.

That is a completely different case. Jon Snow was facing a very real life-or-death decision while Rhaegar could live happily ever after without ever fathering another son on some highborn girl he once met.

The need for a child came with the prophecy but I think that Rhaegar would never have taken Lyanna of all people if had not already being in love with her at the time he learned that Elia could no longer bear children. If he had not been in love with Lyanna any woman would have sufficed, just as Elia earlier sufficed to produce Aegon, the promised prince. But since Rhaegar was already in love it could no other woman but Lyanna.

6 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I'm totally with you though, that from Lyanna's side, the motivation would have to be attraction to Rhaegar and a urge to get away from the prospect of living a conventional, unhappy life married to Robert. Much like Arya, who never wanted to be a lady.

Well, I'm not sure about the last part. Being with Rhaegar isn't some unconventional lifestyle. The man was the Prince of Dragonstone and would be the next king if things went as they were supposed to. Thus Lyanna would not become a mere lady but actually the Queen of the Realm (or at least one of two queens). In that sense a life at Rhaegar's side would have been even more mundane and restricted than a life at Robert's side, not to mention much more filled with court intrigue and bickering. Rhaegar already had two children and while Targaryen marriage custom would have allowed some sort of incestuous matches to unite the lines Lyanna would have been in the awkward position that no matter how many sons she would produce none of them would ever sit on the Iron Throne as long as this Aegon brat lived to breed.

By comparison a life at Robert's side might not have been all that happy but possibly freer and more adventurous. The Stormlands are a wild land, and Lyanna could have gone hunting and riding in the Kingswood, the Rainwood, and the Marches, something that would have been much more difficult as the king's wife.

I think the feelings both of them had for each other were caused by a deep understanding of each other's character, desires, feelings. If it isn't that it would essentially be man in his twenties taking advantage of a 13-14-year-old. I don't think George is consciously trying to make Rhaegar look like a creepy quasi-pedophile.

Thus I think we should go with them realizing at Harrenhal that there are soul mates. And it would not hurt at all if we also go with the assumption that neither gloomy Rhaegar nor wild Lyanna were ever in love prior to meeting each other. Then this whole thing would have been very special for both of them.

6 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

In fact I would not be surprised if Lyanna was the one who flirted with him first. Considering Rhaegar's introverted, dutiful personality, it's unlikely he would have made the first move.

I don't think there was any conventional flirting. I think we are going to learn that Rhaegar dutifully investigated the mystery of the Knight of the Laughing Tree and eventually also interrogated Lyanna as a witness of the whole Howland episode. From there he would eventually have realized quickly enough that she either had something to hide or knew something (we'll have to wait and see how he quickly he saw through her lies). From there things would have continued, and they would have talked. But I don't think there would have been any conventional flirting. Lyanna would most likely have treated Rhaegar just like an ordinary guy, talking back at him in a way he wasn't accustomed to. The glimpses we got of her show her as an even wilder and more entitled/spoiled version of Arya (thanks to the lack of an elder sister like Sansa) and she would not have been impressed by Rhaegar's stupid purple eyes or his effeminate platinum hair.

If she fell for somebody it would have been for the man beneath the princely outside.

And it would have been something of the same sort for Rhaegar. Lyanna was certainly pretty and all but she did not meet the conventional ideal of female beauty nor can she have been particularly well-developed at this time. If Rhaegar had wanted a stunningly beautiful woman as mistress or wife he certainly could have had Ashara Dayne, Cersei Lannister, or dozens of other girls.

I'm also inclined to believe that it was Lyanna who ended the romance/affair/whatever they had at Harrenhal. The idea that Rhaegar's sense of duty broke back then and he actually intended to run away with Lyanna would be quite interesting. But Lyanna put an end to that and Rhaegar returned sadly to Elia and his life at court. Once Aegon was born and Elia barren he could no longer stop thinking of Lyanna and whatever glimpse of a different life he got with her.

And who knows? Perhaps part of them running and hiding was indeed motivated by a wish to just be together the way they wanted to be together. But I don't think this can be the full story there. Lyanna's father and brother died while they were 'having fun' and the Realm was engulfed in war. There must have happened something else.

6 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

ETA: The prophecy would not have been in play at HH, for sure. HH was the time when they would have met, gotten to know each other a bit, and developed attraction. The above applies to the event of "taking" Lyanna and later on staying with her at the TOJ.

Completely in agreement there.

[Dex drako]

14 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

I just don't understand why everyone thinks it will be just one person. The Targ sigil is a three headed dragon but everyone knows it represents three dragons.

for me its because of this line "n this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

it's also why I think there will be a real lightbringer sword a metaphor for dragon fire.

the who piont of the story is for the reader to guess who AA is as much as the character do and at some point near the end GRRM show the true AA. as you said the stuff about the 3 heads comes from the targ trying to fit there idea onto the prophecy the joke is that whole targ thing my not be as important in the end if Jon truely is really AA.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But my idea is that Rhaegar was actually both uncomfortable with that role and the expectations projected into him and eventually dismissed the idea, perhaps when his parents failed to produce more children who could be the other two dragon heads. Once Viserys was born Aerys might have decided he was the special guy and Rhaegar might have begun wondering whether it made sense that he was the guy considering that nothing happened to reinforce his beliefs.

To begin believing it must have been a next generation prince he already had to have doubts when the comet was seen in the sky in the night of Aegon's conception. Else he would never have seen the comet as a sign that Aegon was important nor would he have made the connection back to the night of the boy's conception. He wouldn't have known in the night he had sex with Elia that they would conceive a child then.

Actually, wouldn't he have had sex with Elia for the purpose of conceiving the child? He wouldn't have done it out of love, and he certainly wouldn't have forced himself on her. The fact that it happened almost immediately after Elia arose from her bedrest of Rhaenys gives an indication that he must have done it with the prophecy in mind, because if it was just for producing a heir, no need to get Elia pregnant right after such a dangerous first birth - they could wait. I think he did take the prophecy and his role very seriously and felt he should have his three heads ASAP. The comet being spotted the night of Aegon's conception must have been a happy coincidence for him, a signal per se, that Aegon was indeed the PtwP. Rhaegar thought the comet was the "red star bleeding". (IIRC Aemon says so.)

I don't think Viserys ever entered into it, really. Viserys wasn't born from "salt and smoke", there was no red star, nothing special about his birth. Rhaegar thought he was the PtwP because he was born in the salt and smoke of Summerhall. Given that, it is unlikely he would have thought Vis was the one.

All this actually shows how uncertain and incorrect this whole business of interpreting prophecy might be. I think it's quite likely Rhaegar changed his mind again on the SoIaF thing, basing his line of thinking on the Stark-Targ pact.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The need for a child came with the prophecy but I think that Rhaegar would never have taken Lyanna of all people if had not already being in love with her at the time he learned that Elia could no longer bear children. If he had not been in love with Lyanna any woman would have sufficed, just as Elia earlier sufficed to produce Aegon, the promised prince. But since Rhaegar was already in love it could no other woman but Lyanna.

LV, the issue is that taking Lyanna only out of love does not fit with whatever little we know of Rhaegar's character. It is possible of course, but considering hints that he was determined,dutiful, generally very introverted and not given to impulse, love being the only motivation for taking Lyanna Stark is a bit hard to swallow. Even if he didn't expect war, if he was as intelligent as people claim he was, he would have realised this act could have major political ramifications.  Such an action only becomes imperative if it's part of a larger plan he has, or if he feels it's for the greater good.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I'm not sure about the last part. Being with Rhaegar isn't some unconventional lifestyle. The man was the Prince of Dragonstone and would be the next king if things went as they were supposed to. Thus Lyanna would not become a mere lady but actually the Queen of the Realm (or at least one of two queens). In that sense a life at Rhaegar's side would have been even more mundane and restricted than a life at Robert's side, not to mention much more filled with court intrigue and bickering. Rhaegar already had two children and while Targaryen marriage custom would have allowed some sort of incestuous matches to unite the lines Lyanna would have been in the awkward position that no matter how many sons she would produce none of them would ever sit on the Iron Throne as long as this Aegon brat lived to breed.

Well, this entire thing is just a powder keg which would have blown up a couple of generations later, in any case. I doubt that Lyanna had this kind of foresight though. Arya and Sansa certainly don't, growing up in Winterfell. From Lyanna's side, it would have been a chance to assert herself, get away from the arranged marriage she didn't want and live life with the man she wanted, so to speak. Both Arya and Sansa in AGOT are quite similar, doing whatever they wish without thinking of the possible consequences.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Thus I think we should go with them realizing at Harrenhal that there are soul mates. And it would not hurt at all if we also go with the assumption that neither gloomy Rhaegar nor wild Lyanna were ever in love prior to meeting each other. Then this whole thing would have been very special for both of them.

Yeah, I agree with this. It's quite clear from the meagre hints we have that they would have liked each other's personality (Lyanna sniffling at Rhaegar's sad song, Rhaegar being impressed by her bravery as the KoTLT and thus crowning her)

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And who knows? Perhaps part of them running and hiding was indeed motivated by a wish to just be together the way they wanted to be together. But I don't think this can be the full story there. Lyanna's father and brother died while they were 'having fun' and the Realm was engulfed in war. There must have happened something else.

 This has to be. The idea that this was a beautiful love story from HH to the end is IMO, unrealistic and I think GRRM is going to pull quite a few surprises with regards to their relationship. 

[Macgregor of the North]

I will place what me and Rhaenys have so far on the timeline, which of course we can't claim to be exact to the day, as that's impossible. 

@SFDanny I will say I believe there is a high chance that Jon was born not long before Robb, but Ned actually has to go along with the lie that he is younger than Robb since his cover story has him cheat with Cat after their wedding while on campaign.

That said.

RR timeline.

Harrenhal Tourney- Sept - Oct 281AC
The Tourney took place during the false Spring and winter returns upon the end of the false Spring(which lasts less than two turns, roughly 55-60 days).

"The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance."

End of/Turn of the year 281-282AC- Aegon born.

Start of the year 282AC- Rhaegar heads out- final destination, the Riverlands.

282AC:

Brandon at Riverrun with Cat, Duels Petyr.

Brandon heads to meet his father heading south for the wedding.

After two weeks healing, Petyr heads for the Vale by litter.

Lyanna goes missing with Rhaegar.

Brandon hears and goes racing to KL, not clear if he met his father. 

After a summons, Rickard heads there also. Both are executed.

Aerys calls for the heads of Ned and Robert. Sept 282AC.

Jon Arryn, in response, raises banners. The beginning of the war. Sept 282AC.

Ned heads North to raise banners. Sept 282AC.

Jon and Robert take Gulltown Sept 282AC.

Ned at Sisterton Sept 282AC.

Robert heads home by ship, risking capture from the Royal fleet, to raise his banners Sept- Oct 282AC. 

Robert wins three battles in one day at Summerhall Oct 282AC. Returns to Storms End.

Robert meets Tyrell forces at Ashford, retreats wounded and heads North to meet with Neds forces heading south. Oct- Nov 282AC.

Tyrell and Redwyne forces descend on Storms End to begin a siege. Nov 282AC.

Robert makes it to Stoney Sept. Late 282AC.

Kings hand, Jon Connington surrounds the town with his forces, looking for Robert.

Dec 282- Jan 283AC - Jon Snow conceived.

283AC:

January 283AC.
Ned's and Hoster Tully's forces come to the aid of Robert at Stoney Sept in the Battle of the bells. Ned Marries Cat. Jon Arryn marries Lysa. Robb Stark conceived.

Barristan Selmy is sent to gather the rest of Jon Conningtons forces together after the battle of the bells.

Connington is exiled.

Lord Commander Gerold Hightower is sent to bring Rhaegar back to Kings Landing. Rhaegar orders Gerold, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent to protect Lyanna and Rhaegars third child, a child of the Royal blood and the third head of the Dragon Rhaegar has been searching for.

Rhaegar returns to KL. Takes time to train levies in preparation for battle.

Heads to the war. Dies on the Trident.

Dany conceived. Sept 283AC. 9 moon turns before June 284AC.
"She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight".

Sack of KL- Sept 283AC.
(End of the war, In answer to the war beginning when Jon Arryn raised his banners in Sept 282AC. Ned says the war raged close to a year. This is as close as I can get without pushing back Jon Arryn raising his banners to August 282AC, which would mean from beginning to end the war raged over a year.)

Jon born Sept - Oct 283AC.
8-9 months before Dany as per GRRM.
If Jon is born 9 months before June 284AC, this is Sept 283AC.
If Jon is born 8 months before June 284AC, this is October 283AC. 

Ned lifts siege of Storms End - Oct 283AC. 11 months after the siege begun. Close to a year as per Maester Cressen.
"Maester Cressen remembered the day Davos had been knighted, after the siege of Storm's End. Lord Stannis and a small garrison had held the castle for close to a year, against the great host of the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne."

Robb Stark born Oct 283AC. 9 moons after January. 
"Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south."

Ned at Tower of Joy - Oct - Nov 283AC.

Dany born - June 284AC.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Lord Varys I'm not sure why you believe Rhaegar was 'not that into all that' in regards to prophecy. His whole life from a very very young age is driven by it. And you seem adamant that his parents pushed the prophecy on him, that they gave him it to read. The text doesn't state that or imply it at all, it says he found something in his scrolls that showed he must be a warrior. 

"Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been,"

He would have had the freedom of whatever castle, library living area anywhere on Westeros and could go as he pleased. He was a total book nerd ridiculed by his fathers Knights etc, he would have just holed up in the library reading and then bam! He comes across the Prophecy of the prince that was promised and his life changes forever. From that point I believe it is his life's work. 

His melancholy way about him may have started round about then as he got it into his head that he was the saviour figure, and that it was inevitable the world he lives in would be covered in a generation long darkness which he must stop. That is heavy shit to lay at your own doorstep! 

And Maester Aemon up the road made it all the more serious when he began pinging Ravens to him telling him he thinks the same shit! And has done longer than Rhaegar. 

"Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young,"

But Rhaegars true melancholy ways I believe began to set in when he began going to Summerhall and started talking to the GoHH about prophecy, her dreams, her sad past, the future and what it holds. His sense of doom really takes hold here. 

"But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy."

"You make him sound so sour," Dany protested. 

"Not sour, no, but . . . there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense . . ." The old man hesitated again.

"Say it," she urged. "

". . . of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days."
Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar's birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. "It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?" 

Having a sense of doom is not like grieving over dead kin from Summerhalls disaster, this is about the future this doom.

I believe he writes Jenny's song for her but also, Jenny's song is bound to contain references to his own doom as well in regards to the Prophecy.

"When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved."

Basically. I think Rhaegar carried this sense of doom from what he learned over the years about Prophecy, from scrolls, Aemon, and possibly from the GOHH, and I think he knew all would not end well for himself, he just didn't know when. 

What make is it even sadder is that while driving forward through life to fulfill this prophecy that has become his life, he actually finds love, and creates a life with this love that may indeed be one the most important parts of the whole prophecy(or not, prophecy is weird), but unfortunately he, or his love, will not get to see any of it as they are both dead before their time, or maybe not before their time

[Macgregor of the North]

@LiveFirstDieLater I was wondering what your thoughts are in regards to Dany being born at the the Tower of Joy to Rhaegar and Lyanna with a birth date of mid 284AC?

Also, what are your thoughts in regards to Viserys holding it against Dany all his and her life for killing their mother in the birthing bed. Something he was close by to when it happened, and he was 9 years old, more than old enough to know exactly what's going on. 

A red faced squalling baby survives, his mother doesn't, he blames the baby forever, that baby is Dany. 

The way you say it, Dany is exiled and meets Viserys later on. So how does he get it into his head that this mysterious girl he meets up with later, killed his mother in the birthing bed in 284AC? When he just meets her for the first time in her exile? 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Little Scribe of Naath

I have tagged you because I see you have been discussing the Ice and Fire angle of the prophecy. I'm beginning to wonder if Rhaegar always got it wrong with Aegon because he simply believed he would be the saviour figure to fight in the battle for the dawn which pits the forces of Ice against the forces of fire? So he never thought that the prince's song could ever relate to a mix of the blood so to speak(as in like Jon is), but just that he would be the hero in this fight between the two elements. 

I've also been thinking of Rhaegars journey from Dragonstone which will ultimately see him end up at the Riverlands to meet with Lyanna. The word ultimately jumps out at you as a pointer to Rhaegar having done something or having to do something before he completes the final stage of his journey.

This is the only chance I believe he has to learn that he is wrong about Aegon being the Prince that was promised who's song is the song of ice and fire. If he does indeed change his mind it has to be during this journey.

He clearly thinks at the end of/turn of 281/282AC upon Aegons birth that Aegon is the Prince that was promised of the prophecy. The comet has blinded him to the rest of it possibly and he may be false with his assumption.

I believe he possibly returns to Summerhall to seek the Ghost of High Heart once more for a dream in exchange for Jenny's song but she may have moved on. She has possibly moved back to the Riverlands to dwell at High Heart, having gorged on enough grief at Summerhall.

So after a fruitless journey to Summerhall Rhaegar heads North, he seeks the GoHH and finally finds her in the Riverlands, possibly at High Heart.

The GoHH has dreams for him. They perhaps indicate something towards the Ice and Fire portion of the prophecy which he never really fully understood before. I'm not saying he will fully understand them now, but perhaps he understands enough to change his mind.

Rhaegar thinks back to the Wolfmaid he crowned, of Stark blood of the old Kings of Winter, the embodiment of Ice, and now realises he has maybe been wrong all along. His son Aegon may not be the PtwP but a child of this Union between himself and Lyanna will be. 

This could still show that Rhaegar has ordered the three Kingsguard to protect the fulfilment of a Prophecy. The child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna of house Stark, blood of the Kings of Winter, whom Rhaegar now finally believes will be the Prince who was promised who's song is indeed the song of Ice and Fire. 

The Dragon has three heads, at this point he has three but his own personal belief in one being the actual prince who was promised has switched to his half ice half fire child who grows in Lyannas belly, hence why he keeps three Kingsguard there to protect Lyanna while he rides off to his own doom.

[SFDanny]

@Macgregor of the North and @Rhaenys_Targaryen

I'd add Margaery's birth into the late 283 events after Robb is born, but it's a good working hypothesis. I'd also put a little separation between the Battle of the Bells, which could take place in very late 282, and the wedding that has to take place in 283. Can't say how long it takes for the armies to march from Stony Sept to Riverrun, but a Martin "fortnight" is a good possibility.

Good stuff.

edit: Let me also add I wouldn't worry if the start of the Rebellion is a little longer than a year before the sack of King's Landing. The quote is "The war raged for close to a year." (AGoT 96)  So I don't see much problem if it goes a little longer or a little shorter than a year.

Which reminds me, do you want quotes to back up Margaery's birth in 283? If so, let me know, and I'd be happy to provide it.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

6 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@LiveFirstDieLater I was wondering what your thoughts are in regards to Dany being born at the the Tower of Joy to Rhaegar and Lyanna with a birth date of mid 284AC?

Also, what are your thoughts in regards to Viserys holding it against Dany all his and her life for killing their mother in the birthing bed. Something he was close by to when it happened, and he was 9 years old, more than old enough to know exactly what's going on. 

A red faced squalling baby survives, his mother doesn't, he blames the baby forever, that baby is Dany. 

The way you say it, Dany is exiled and meets Viserys later on. So how does he get it into his head that this mysterious girl he meets up with later, killed his mother in the birthing bed in 284AC? When he just meets her for the first time in her exile? 

So I would say that your timeline and the 284 birthday for Dany make sense assuming she is the child of Aerys... Of course this begged the decade (at least) old question of how Cat could reasonably believe that Rob was older than Jon, which in turn led to GRRM giving the 8-9month or thereabouts quote used so often to space the births of Jon and Dany.

If she was born at the tower of Joy I think it would likely have been earlier, of course Jons birth would be earlier as well, and we still have the Jon/Rob age disparity. Dany would have been the baby that killed Lyanna at the ToJ in the end of 283 and Jon would have been born early 283. This would make Jon the better part of a year older than Rob, but does line up with the rumor of Ned and the fisherman's daughter (I clearly don't think Jon's mom was a fisherman's daughter but rumors often come from somewhere (in this case baby age), and this one makes more sense timeline wise than Ned/Ashara).

Ok so the Viserys issue, we know he was a messed up dude and treated Dany terribly. She seems to think that this was because he holds her responsible for killing their mother. We don't really see Viserys going on about it, perhaps she came up with that explanation herself, or it was the excuse Viserys gave? Might he not blame the love child of Rhaegar for his families downfall? Interestingly the woman mentioned in Dany's first chapter (besides "their mother's womb") is Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved (she sees a vision of this death in the HotU as well). 

Either way it sure seems like Viserys lusted after Dany, and the Targaryens have the tradition of marrying brother to sister.

"She had always assumed that she would wed Viserys when she came of age. For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men. Yet now Viserys schemed to sell her to a stranger, a barbarian."

And yet Viserys is happy to sell Dany for an army (said in a far more crude way). Now it seems he didn't know he was promised to Dorne already, and while its clear Viserys really wanted to retake his throne, he is also irrationally arrogant about his lineage. He might have been more willing to sell off his illegitimate niece his brother had fathered on the usurper's dog's sister when he ran off with her and started a war that brought down their house.

Also, he never calls her Daenerys... And "sweet sister" is a suspicious line... But honestly the biggest thing is that we get a lot of very suspicious phrasing surrounding her, and there is no doubt in my mind that this author loves his word games...

Viserys was Mad Aerys's son, just so. Daenerys … Daenerys is quite different." He popped a roasted lark into his mouth and crunched it noisily, bones and all. "The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire. This dragon queen who wears her name is a true Targaryen.

At the end of the day I wouldn't have guessed Viserys was ignorant but rather complicit in raising Dany to be Daenerys...

 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Dany would have been the baby that killed Lyanna at the ToJ in the end of 283 and Jon would have been born early 283. 

Except Dany's birth was in mid 284AC.

 

7 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ok so the Viserys issue, we know he was a messed up dude and treated Dany terribly. She seems to think that this was because he holds her responsible for killing their mother. We don't really see Viserys going on about it, perhaps she came up with that explanation herself, or it was the excuse Viserys gave? 

We see Viserys go on about very little really in the grand scheme of the story. Dany is talking about something Viserys has told her all through their life growing up. And it is based on the fact he was there to witness the events, being a nine year old lad who knew exactly what was going on.

There is nothing to back up the assumption Dany made it up herself. 

Why would Viserys use that excuse?' You are not even my sister but I'm gonna make your life hell by telling you that you killed my mother'. What's the point? Viserys being messed up doesn't explain that at all in afraid. 

He has actually seen the aftermath of his mother dying in childbirth, and a child being brought forth, alive and well. He has known this to be Dany all his life. 

Are you really assuming that an exiled Dany has met up with Viserys later in life, when Viserys is even older than 9, and because he is messed up he has decided to tell her that she is his little sister and she killed his mother in childbirth? Just for kicks?.

[Macgregor of the North]

@LiveFirstDieLater

On the Jon/Robb older/younger confusion. Neds cover story for Jon relies on the idea that Cat believes, as does everybody, that Ned cheated on campaign after they married. 

This makes Jon younger than Robb and no threat, so Ned would just go along with that wouldn't he.

But in truth there is every possibility that Lyanna and Rhaegar conceived Jon a little bit before Ned and Cat conceived Robb.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

9 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Except Dany's birth was in mid 284AC.

 

We see Viserys go on about very little really in the grand scheme of the story. Dany is talking about something Viserys has told her all through their life growing up. And it is based on the fact he was there to witness the events, being a nine year old lad who knew exactly what was going on.

There is nothing to back up the assumption Dany made it up herself. 

Why would Viserys use that excuse?' You are not even my sister but I'm gonna make your life hell by telling you that you killed my mother'. What's the point? Viserys being messed up doesn't explain that at all in afraid. 

He has actually seen the aftermath of his mother dying in childbirth, and a child being brought forth, alive and well. He has known this to be Dany all his life. 

Are you really assuming that an exiled Dany has met up with Viserys later in life, when Viserys is even older than 9, and because he is messed up he has decided to tell her that she is his little sister and she killed his mother in childbirth? Just for kicks?.

If Dany is a different baby we don't know her birthday, the day she celebrates would be the stormborn date...

Viserys could blame the death of his whole family on a Rhaegar Lyanna love child

[Macgregor of the North]

10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

If Dany is a different baby we don't know her birthday, the day she celebrates would be the stormborn date...

Viserys could blame the death of his whole family on a Rhaegar Lyanna love child

Explain how you see it all for me please. Why not, I have time. 

Viserys sees his mother dead on Dragonstone in June 284AC. Does she birth a still born? There's no mention of it absolutely anywhere. What exactly happens there?

When does Viserys meet Daenerys for the first time? How old is she? How old is he? 

Is it an elaborate plan for him to treat her as his sister although she is Rhaegars child? Why? 

And it seems like you are implying he knew she was Rhaegars? Is this true? 

Who else is in on this deal to pass Dany of fas Daenerys Stormborn when Infact she is Rhaegar and Lyannas child. 

Also, GRRM has said Dany was named by her mother. Lyanna in this case is it?? 

Much to explain here. And I hope you take the time to explain it fully with text to back it up, instead of that half hearted attempt to sabotage my other thread with that garbage about Richard Lonmouth being part of the Storms end siege Garrison with Stannis Baratheon, which after I replied with text to back up my words you went eerily quiet. 

I'm not meaning to be nasty or anything but I'll admit, I get sick of people jumping on threads to pump up their own 'theories' which funnily enough, I'll garauntee is NOT even your own theory. You just read it somewhere else.

[Macgregor of the North]

18 hours ago, kimim said:

A question about Dany's vision in the HotU:

The baby is Aegon, Rhaegar's second child, born after Rhaegar meets Lyanna at Harrenhal. Aegon is the son of a Dornish woman and a Targ. I understand how Aegon might be tptwp, but why is his song "the song of ice and fire"? That song specifically refers to a Stark-Targ marriage, or so I thought.

Rhaegar then says "there must be one more," as "the dragon has three heads." This is pretty dire, as he probably just found out that his wife won't be able to have more children, which means that he can only have "two heads," with her. Was this pretty scene followed by Rhaegar telling Elia that he must leave to make that third head? If he had Lyanna in mind (he'd already met her) then wouldn't her children be the true children of "ice and fire"?

Rhaegar is driven by prophecy and the possible early feelings for this wild wolf maid he has unmasked at Harrenhal.

When he leaves Elia determined to find the third head of the dragon he still believed it was Aegon who was the PTWP. Its on this journey that ultimately sees him back at the Riverlands that i believe he may realise that instead of his son Aegon being the hero in a war between the elements Ice and Fire, thus Rhaegar taking this to mean his song is the song of ice and fire, it may actually turn out to be a deeper meaning. The PTWP may actually be a mixture of ice and fire blood. Targaryen blood, and the blood of the old Kings of Winter. Ice and fire.

Rhaegar does something before meeting Lyanna, he goes somewhere, hence the 'ultimately'. 

I believe there's a chance he met a certain little someone who perhaps gave him more info in exchange for a song. This information could possibly switch Rhaegars thinking on who the PtwP is and help him understand the ice and fire part of the prophecy which he struggled with before. 

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have tagged you because I see you have been discussing the Ice and Fire angle of the prophecy. I'm beginning to wonder if Rhaegar always got it wrong with Aegon because he simply believed he would be the saviour figure to fight in the battle for the dawn which pits the forces of Ice against the forces of fire? So he never thought that the prince's song could ever relate to a mix of the blood so to speak(as in like Jon is), but just that he would be the hero in this fight between the two elements. 

Yes, this is extremely likely. It fits with a pretty common theme for Martin in his novels - nobody is really able to figure out a prophecy perfectly. He might have thought the SoIaF first refers to the saviour figure in the Battle for the Dawn, maybe. Or he may have not really taken that part of the prophecy much into account - he may have focused more on the "born in salt and smoke" or red star bleeding part of the prophecy. It's extremely likely he changed his mind again. Remember, this prophecy was a major driving force throughout his life. He took the matter of getting it right very seriously.

In general my line of thinking is very similar to yours - Rhaegar possibly might have been very disappointed after hearing that Elia could not birth a third child. Until then it's quite clear that he was assuming he would have his three heads from Elia - even though I believe he was attracted to Lyanna at HH, I doubt he thought of taking it any further. You're perfectly right in stating that Rhaegar had a certain mission which ultimately led him to the Riverlands, not that he went there in the first place.

Whatever it was, once he learned Elia could not have a third child, he could have sought out the GOHH in order to try and make better sense of the prophecy. He probably felt that his parents may not birth any more children, so the responsibility to beget the three heads was on him.

Rhaegar is said to have "fell upon" Lyanna in the Riverlands - another curious choice of wording. It points to something like a chance meeting more than a planned one - but the alternative is perfectly possible too. If it was indeed a chance meeting (people have speculated he rescued her from Aerys' goons), I'm inclined to think it went something like Jon-Ygritte - they would have given in to their feelings not immediately but somewhere along the way, and Rhaegar would have realised it fit the prophecy.

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

This could still show that Rhaegar has ordered the three Kingsguard to protect the fulfilment of a Prophecy. The child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna of house Stark, blood of the Kings of Winter, whom Rhaegar now finally believes will be the Prince who was promised who's song is indeed the song of Ice and Fire. 

The Dragon has three heads, at this point he has three but his own personal belief in one being the actual prince who was promised has switched to his half ice half fire child who grows in Lyannas belly, hence why he keeps three Kingsguard there to protect Lyanna while he rides off to his own doom.

Hmm...this is tricky. Technically, Rhaegar could have simply ordered the KG to defend Lyanna with their lives, and they'd be honor bound to carry out the order. He could have explained the prophecy, but whether they all bought it, we can't be sure. Maybe Arthur being Rhaegar's best friend did, but Oswell is less certain, and Gerold Hightower even less so. Most people in Westeros are pretty skeptical of prophecy and magic, after all. And if they were, they're not wrong - how were they to know that this child, and this child alone, could save Westeros from the coming apocalypse? Nobody can tell until after the fact.

I'm inclined to believe Rhaegar just simply ordered them to protect Lyanna at all costs, even if he dies in the war. The KG were all men of their word, and did so.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Little Scribe of Naath

So it's looking like we have Rhaegar throw his whole belief on the Comet really. Which Aemon curiously says: 

"He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet."

Doesn't this hint at ever so slightly that Aemon never felt as strongly as Rhaegar  about the bleeding star being a Comet? 
Either way, Rhaegar places all his chips on red and sticks with it. It appears we might be close to how Rhaegar perceived the Ice and Fire part of it, if he looked into it that much in the first place, which I believe he must have since he is quite an intelligent man. I think he just applied it to Aegon because he was so swayed by the Comet.

What I really want to read about is if Rhaegar finally found out more about the Ice and Fire portion of the prophecy, and how he found out. I'd love my GoHH theory to come true where he meets her one more time after leaving Dragonstone and she tells him some Cryptic crazy shit that is just enough for him to grasp it's meaning to motivate him to wife Lyanna(or not) and go through with having a child with her. 

I've no doubt he had feelings for her early but everything is prophecy driven primarily with Rhaegar. I like what you say on the Jon/Ygritte comparison. I think it actually adds a great love story angle to the series if Rhaegar is prophecy driven through his whole life, but finally falls in love as a result of this prophecy bringing them together, but loses his love, his own life, and never does see how it all ends up. That is quite tragic stuff really.