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Why did Criston Cole support Aegon II?


Valens

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And why did he want to make him the king? We return to one of the most controversial characters of the entire Martin-epos. I read a theory that he might have simply been respecting the ancient Andal law that says only male children can inherit the throne. And whose stories would you rather believe, the Septon Eustace's or Mushroom the Fool's? The one concerning the break between Rhaenyra and Criston. Eustace says he came in her chamber and professed his love for her and offered her to come with him to a Free City, where he would become a sellsword. And she angrily answered she is a Targaryen and is not meant to follow him as a mere sellsword's woman. Also implying that if he could forget his Kingsguard vows, he could forget marriage vows as well. Mushroom says it was she who came on to him but for some reason he rejected her. And this is really odd. Why would a guy like Cole reject the princess who was groomed to be the queen and the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms? I mean, he came from a lesser house and though he had become the commander of the Kingsguard, he still depended on the good will of his king. Rejecting his daughter like that might have meant losing his position as a commander, had Rhaenyra been so wicked she could have accused him of something far worse than he did. It does seem however that him turning against Rhaenyra and towards Alicent and Aegon was in a big part due to his jealousy over Rhaenyra choosing Harwin Strong. Who was also the strongest man in the realm and came from a more powerful house than Cole. Or was it that Criston simply thought Aegon as a male had a bigger chance of winning the support of the people and securing the throne? Plus, his mother WAS the queen and his grandfather WAS the Hand. If you add that strong anger/jealousy he felt towards Rhaenyra and her lover...it is not hard to understand why he made that choice of following Aegon. But also, it seems his anger extended also to Laenor. It seems he hated everyone that was "affiliated", shall we say, with Rhaenyra. Maybe he also hated Laenor because he knew he was gay and that is why he intentionally mortally wounded his lover.

This guy scares me...what a dangerous, volatile character. And vicious as well. Sliting the throat of Lyman Beesbury was the proof of what he was capable of. This guy was not to be played with. But in the end he got what he deserved. ;)

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I think Cole was delusional. And that the net result is a combination of Eustace and Mushrooms story. 

She entered his room and wanted sex, but Cole was one of those Jorah-persons who wanted "true sex", marriage, true love and believed they should flee, marry and profess their feelings yada yada. She in return was only out for a more open relationship, didn´t want to leave her life behind and had no reason to see this as true love and that broke him. Instead of being his one true love, she was now just a whore, a temptess and not worthy of his love (sounds familiar?)

Cole checks many, if not all checkboxes of a wife-beater for me. 

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With any of Martin's historical characters there's a huge amount of wiggle room for vastly varying opinions since we mainly hear about them through in universe second or third-hand sources. Which of course makes it all the more fun to debate about them! 

Personally, I buy into Lord Varys' (the poster on these boards, not the Spider himself) theory that Mushroom's accounts of Criston Cole can be read as a kind of manic sarcastic satire. That Cole was ambitious and without scruples when it came to what he did with his blade or his cock, but prone to passionate obsessions. Think Littlefinger in armour. So he has this wild passion for Rhaenyra stemming from her childhood infatuation with him. She grows out of it, but he doesn't. Instead he shows himself painfully willing to forsake the knightly code to pursue his passion for her. Maybe to the extent that this is an open secret at Viserys I's court (Alicent jokes about it at one point). So Mushroom's testimony mocks this situation by continually referring to Cole's chivalry in ridiculously over the top terms ("chaste as an aged septa" etc) in a manner which would have tickled the fancy of anyone who lived through the era and knew the truth of the matter. But the mists of time have shrouded the irony of Mushroom's testimony and Yandel relates it as a straight, if ribald, account, puzzled as to why it clashes with other accounts of the romantic and sexual soap opera elements of the Dance.

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It was a mix of things but Cole's falling out with Rhaenyra was probably the prime concern. Remember in the small room council before Aegon II could be crowned how Cole says little of Daemon or the rights of sons, but everything of how depraved Rhaenyra, and people associated with her like Laenor, was.

EDITED: And best way to get at Rhaenyrw as, unsuprisingly, to join her enemies.

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1 hour ago, Valens said:

And why did he want to make him the king?

Aegon II as a person had nothing to do with all that. I don't think anyone thought he would be a good king (or that he was even a good man), not even his own family. He was just the eldest son of Queen Alicent and thus the figurehead they had to go with to challenge Rhaenyra. Crowning Aemond instead of Aegon would have led to more than just a few raised eyebrows, although I actually think they could have gotten through as well with that as with Aegon II - after all, Aemond was the one who had the biggest dragon.

Criston Cole in particular had no reason to love or even like Alicent's sons. He wanted to get back at Rhaenyra and thus he joined her enemies. Vice versa, Alicent knew that he wanted to hurt Rhaenyra, too, that's why she welcomed him among her party.

Note also how Cole used Aegon II as a pawn in his stratagem to kill some Black dragons. He nearly killed his king with his Rook's Rest idea. And later he had a falling-out with the Prince Regent at Harrenhal.

1 hour ago, Valens said:

I read a theory that he might have simply been respecting the ancient Andal law that says only male children can inherit the throne.

That makes no sense at all because Criston Cole once was a fervent supporter of Rhaenyra during a time during which she was already Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the throne. If he had issues with female inheritance he would have distanced himself from Rhaenyra as soon as she was proclaimed the heir and would also have done everything in his power to dissuade Viserys I from such a policy (which he never did as far as we know).

46 minutes ago, The Prince of Magpies said:

With any of Martin's historical characters there's a huge amount of wiggle room for vastly varying opinions since we mainly hear about them through in universe second or third-hand sources. Which of course makes it all the more fun to debate about them! 

Personally, I buy into Lord Varys' (the poster on these boards, not the Spider himself) theory that Mushroom's accounts of Criston Cole can be read as a kind of manic sarcastic satire. That Cole was ambitious and without scruples when it came to what he did with his blade or his cock, but prone to passionate obsessions. Think Littlefinger in armour. So he has this wild passion for Rhaenyra stemming from her childhood infatuation with him. She grows out of it, but he doesn't. Instead he shows himself painfully willing to forsake the knightly code to pursue his passion for her. Maybe to the extent that this is an open secret at Viserys I's court (Alicent jokes about it at one point). So Mushroom's testimony mocks this situation by continually referring to Cole's chivalry in ridiculously over the top terms ("chaste as an aged septa" etc) in a manner which would have tickled the fancy of anyone who lived through the era and knew the truth of the matter. But the mists of time have shrouded the irony of Mushroom's testimony and Yandel relates it as a straight, if ribald, account, puzzled as to why it clashes with other accounts of the romantic and sexual soap opera elements of the Dance.

Thanks for the praise.

The other part of this thing is that Mushroom might actually (sort of) defending Rhaenyra's honor by claiming she never actually slept with either Cole or Daemon but simply got lessons how to seduce Cole from her uncle. That would be sort of bad but not as bad as adultery with your married uncle or successfully getting a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard to forsake his vows.

All things considered I think it is effectively confirmed that Daemon had some form of sex with Rhaenyra to force Viserys to allow him to marry her. That would have been the whole point of him seducing Rhaenyra. Whether they actually had vaginal intercourse we cannot really know. However, the account that Arryk Cargyll caught Rhaenyra and Daemon abed together is most likely true. It would give us the perfect explanation why this man ended up joining the Greens and even went as far as to agreeing to murder Rhaenyra and/or her children and was then willing to kill his own twin brother in the process. He might have had serious problems with sluts and adulterers for some reason.

The status of Cole and Rhaenyra's relationship is very difficult to determine. I could see them exchanging kisses or even having a secret sexual affair at a certain point in Rhaenyra's life - but it is also possible that the sexual tension between them never led to anything. That certainly could explain Cole's obsession with her. If he never had her it is more likely he would do everything to destroy her and her happiness (and the men she actually had) than if he had been *there* at least a few times.

Thinking about that - has anybody ever considered the possibility that Cole was behind the murders of Laenor Velaryon and Harwin Strong? He certainly could have been involved...

But in general I really like the picture of Cole as a Littlefinger in armor, both insofar as his obsessions/desires are concerned (owning a woman that greatly outranks him) as well as his qualities as a schemer and murderer. And it is actually good that George has given us at least one Kingsguard schemer in the history of Westeros. Hopefully we'll see a few more when Aerys' White Sword are flashed out more (or when Aegon VI and Dany finally get more Kingsguard.

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55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon II as a person had nothing to do with all that. I don't think anyone thought he would be a good king (or that he was even a good man), not even his own family. He was just the eldest son of Queen Alicent and thus the figurehead they had to go with to challenge Rhaenyra. Crowning Aemond instead of Aegon would have led to more than just a few raised eyebrows, although I actually think they could have gotten through as well with that as with Aegon II - after all, Aemond was the one who had the biggest dragon.

Criston Cole in particular had no reason to love or even like Alicent's sons. He wanted to get back at Rhaenyra and thus he joined her enemies. Vice versa, Alicent knew that he wanted to hurt Rhaenyra, too, that's why she welcomed him among her party.

Note also how Cole used Aegon II as a pawn in his stratagem to kill some Black dragons. He nearly killed his king with his Rook's Rest idea. And later he had a falling-out with the Prince Regent at Harrenhal.

That makes no sense at all because Criston Cole once was a fervent supporter of Rhaenyra during a time during which she was already Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the throne. If he had issues with female inheritance he would have distanced himself from Rhaenyra as soon as she was proclaimed the heir and would also have done everything in his power to dissuade Viserys I from such a policy (which he never did as far as we know).

Thanks for the praise.

The other part of this thing is that Mushroom might actually (sort of) defending Rhaenyra's honor by claiming she never actually slept with either Cole or Daemon but simply got lessons how to seduce Cole from her uncle. That would be sort of bad but not as bad as adultery with your married uncle or successfully getting a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard to forsake his vows.

All things considered I think it is effectively confirmed that Daemon had some form of sex with Rhaenyra to force Viserys to allow him to marry her. That would have been the whole point of him seducing Rhaenyra. Whether they actually had vaginal intercourse we cannot really know. However, the account that Arryk Cargyll caught Rhaenyra and Daemon abed together is most likely true. It would give us the perfect explanation why this man ended up joining the Greens and even went as far as to agreeing to murder Rhaenyra and/or her children and was then willing to kill his own twin brother in the process. He might have had serious problems with sluts and adulterers for some reason.

The status of Cole and Rhaenyra's relationship is very difficult to determine. I could see them exchanging kisses or even having a secret sexual affair at a certain point in Rhaenyra's life - but it is also possible that the sexual tension between them never led to anything. That certainly could explain Cole's obsession with her. If he never had her it is more likely he would do everything to destroy her and her happiness (and the men she actually had) than if he had been *there* at least a few times.

Thinking about that - has anybody ever considered the possibility that Cole was behind the murders of Laenor Velaryon and Harwin Strong? He certainly could have been involved...

But in general I really like the picture of Cole as a Littlefinger in armor, both insofar as his obsessions/desires are concerned (owning a woman that greatly outranks him) as well as his qualities as a schemer and murderer. And it is actually good that George has given us at least one Kingsguard schemer in the history of Westeros. Hopefully we'll see a few more when Aerys' White Sword are flashed out more (or when Aegon VI and Dany finally get more Kingsguard.

Great points. I think the reader is supposed associate Criston with Jaime, though. And as @Protagoras suggests, we can see how a member of the Kingsguard can turn on the queen he loves due, at least in part, to jealousy. 

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7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Great points. I think the reader is supposed associate Criston with Jaime, though. And as @Protagoras suggests, we can see how a member of the Kingsguard can turn on the queen he loves due, at least in part, to jealousy. 

The books have Jaime talk about Criston Cole somewhat but if you read TRP, TPatQ, and TWoIaF then it becomes clear that Cole and Jaime have nothing in common but the fact that they are both great warriors and members of the Kingsguard. Jaime loves his twin sister, Cole a Targaryen princess. Jaime is the heir of Casterly and golden boy of the West, Criston Cole the son of the steward of Blackhaven (basically a nobody). Cole seems to like power and involve himself into court politics, factions, and the government of the Realm (as Lord Commander) while Jaime wants nothing to do with this kind of thing.

Even the nature of the love of the Lannister twins for each other has nothing to do with Cole's feelings for Rhaenyra. He had the hots for a beautiful and unreachable girl whereas Jaime was in love with his twin sister his entire life. And in addition to the romantic feelings and sexual attraction Jaime and Cersei feel for each other they are also siblings, adding another layer to their relationship (and this goes also for all the Targaryen incest matches - those people are then both lovers as well as siblings and even if romantic love cools down - assuming it was there in the first place - they will always remain siblings for better or worse).

I don't think there is more to Jaime-Cole than Cole being a bad KG role model. But Jaime still could end up in his footsteps as a Kingmaker if he somehow ends up in camp Aegon and helps him ascend the Iron Throne by publicly confessing the fact that he is indeed the father of Cersei's children.

And who knows? Perhaps Jaime even ends up putting Aegon VI's crown on his head during his coronation (although I find it much more likely that Connington, Illyrio, or Varys are going to do that).

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And I also agree with all those that say that Cole didn´t care about the Blacks and the Greens, the inheritance, the question of law etc, but only wanted to get a back at Rhaenyra due to this very personal reason by joining her enemies, but tbh I think that is so obvious that I didn´t even mentioned it in my first post. 

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36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The books have Jaime talk about Criston Cole somewhat but if you read TRP, TPatQ, and TWoIaF then it becomes clear that Cole and Jaime have nothing in common but the fact that they are both great warriors and members of the Kingsguard. Jaime loves his twin sister, Cole a Targaryen princess. Jaime is the heir of Casterly and golden boy of the West, Criston Cole the son of the steward of Blackhaven (basically a nobody). Cole seems to like power and involve himself into court politics, factions, and the government of the Realm (as Lord Commander) while Jaime wants nothing to do with this kind of thing.

Even the nature of the love of the Lannister twins for each other has nothing to do with Cole's feelings for Rhaenyra. He had the hots for a beautiful and unreachable girl whereas Jaime was in love with his twin sister his entire life. And in addition to the romantic feelings and sexual attraction Jaime and Cersei feel for each other they are also siblings, adding another layer to their relationship (and this goes also for all the Targaryen incest matches - those people are then both lovers as well as siblings and even if romantic love cools down - assuming it was there in the first place - they will always remain siblings for better or worse).

I don't think there is more to Jaime-Cole than Cole being a bad KG role model. But Jaime still could end up in his footsteps as a Kingmaker if he somehow ends up in camp Aegon and helps him ascend the Iron Throne by publicly confessing the fact that he is indeed the father of Cersei's children.

And who knows? Perhaps Jaime even ends up putting Aegon VI's crown on his head during his coronation (although I find it much more likely that Connington, Illyrio, or Varys are going to do that).

Well, if we look at Jaime atm he is showing several tendencies towards Cole-behaviour. Calling Cersei a whore constantly, extreme jealousy towards possible other sexpartners and a will to reevaluate the whole thing between them as an illusion. 

Not saying he is completely there yet, but he certainly do seem to have the same Whore/Madonna complex, at least in part. 

Edit: But I admit I am partial - mainly because I see Jaime as the worst human being of all POW-characters, even worse than Victarion and Cersei. 

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2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Well, if we look at Jaime atm he is showing several tendencies towards Cole-behaviour. Calling Cersei a whore constantly, extreme jealousy towards possible other sexpartners and a will to reevaluate the whole thing between them as an illusion. 

Not saying he is completely there yet, but he certainly do seem to have the same Whore/Madonna complex, at least in part. 

Edit: But I admit I am partial - mainly because I see Jaime as the worst human being of all POW-characters, even worse than Victarion and Cersei. 

Well, Cersei fooled him up to a point.

But again, Cersei and Jaime is a very different relationship. Cole is just a dude who was a member of a Sworn Brotherhood and had the hots for a girl. Jaime and Cersei are twins and have three children together.

I don't think Jaime and Cersei will have a similar falling out as Criston and Rhaenyra had nor do I think Jaime will meet as ignominious and pitiful an end as Criston did.

If Cersei hooks up with Euron Jaime will be not so much jealous as more afraid of what they might do together. The chance that we are going to see him becoming this deplorable guy you think he is is not very likely. And remember, that Cole never had an experience like the lost hand as Jaime did. He was a whole man until the end, although his reputation clearly went down the toilet when he crowned Aegon II.

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I got the impression that he was disillusioned with Rhaenyra. I'm really reading in to this hear, but I think he was in love with her, I think he sacrificed his relationship with her on account of duty. I think think that he scorned her for not doing the same when it came to her own desires.

Obviously everyone remembers the Mushroom/Eustace story of their secret meeting and proclamations being made on one side or the other. I don't recall though, do both "historians" agree that their was a second meeting?

I always believed that it was Rhaenyra who came to Criston first, and he refused her. But I think that he caved, and came back to her, at which point she refused him.

Picking Aegon was definitely personal, either way.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon II as a person had nothing to do with all that. I don't think anyone thought he would be a good king (or that he was even a good man), not even his own family. He was just the eldest son of Queen Alicent and thus the figurehead they had to go with to challenge Rhaenyra. Crowning Aemond instead of Aegon would have led to more than just a few raised eyebrows, although I actually think they could have gotten through as well with that as with Aegon II - after all, Aemond was the one who had the biggest dragon.

Criston Cole in particular had no reason to love or even like Alicent's sons. He wanted to get back at Rhaenyra and thus he joined her enemies. Vice versa, Alicent knew that he wanted to hurt Rhaenyra, too, that's why she welcomed him among her party.

Note also how Cole used Aegon II as a pawn in his stratagem to kill some Black dragons. He nearly killed his king with his Rook's Rest idea. And later he had a falling-out with the Prince Regent at Harrenhal.

That makes no sense at all because Criston Cole once was a fervent supporter of Rhaenyra during a time during which she was already Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the throne. If he had issues with female inheritance he would have distanced himself from Rhaenyra as soon as she was proclaimed the heir and would also have done everything in his power to dissuade Viserys I from such a policy (which he never did as far as we know).

Thanks for the praise.

The other part of this thing is that Mushroom might actually (sort of) defending Rhaenyra's honor by claiming she never actually slept with either Cole or Daemon but simply got lessons how to seduce Cole from her uncle. That would be sort of bad but not as bad as adultery with your married uncle or successfully getting a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard to forsake his vows.

All things considered I think it is effectively confirmed that Daemon had some form of sex with Rhaenyra to force Viserys to allow him to marry her. That would have been the whole point of him seducing Rhaenyra. Whether they actually had vaginal intercourse we cannot really know. However, the account that Arryk Cargyll caught Rhaenyra and Daemon abed together is most likely true. It would give us the perfect explanation why this man ended up joining the Greens and even went as far as to agreeing to murder Rhaenyra and/or her children and was then willing to kill his own twin brother in the process. He might have had serious problems with sluts and adulterers for some reason.

The status of Cole and Rhaenyra's relationship is very difficult to determine. I could see them exchanging kisses or even having a secret sexual affair at a certain point in Rhaenyra's life - but it is also possible that the sexual tension between them never led to anything. That certainly could explain Cole's obsession with her. If he never had her it is more likely he would do everything to destroy her and her happiness (and the men she actually had) than if he had been *there* at least a few times.

Thinking about that - has anybody ever considered the possibility that Cole was behind the murders of Laenor Velaryon and Harwin Strong? He certainly could have been involved...

But in general I really like the picture of Cole as a Littlefinger in armor, both insofar as his obsessions/desires are concerned (owning a woman that greatly outranks him) as well as his qualities as a schemer and murderer. And it is actually good that George has given us at least one Kingsguard schemer in the history of Westeros. Hopefully we'll see a few more when Aerys' White Sword are flashed out more (or when Aegon VI and Dany finally get more Kingsguard.

Yes, you are very good at this. ;) I agree. The notion that Cole was simply respecting the Andal laws is just plain naive. It is clear to me as well that revenge and grudge against Rhaenyra was the primary motive for him turning the cloak, to put it that way. He had no reason to like Alicent nor her sons, after all, she was a manipulative and power hungry bitch (who even may have had something to do with her husband's death, it is suggested that she "hurried it") and they were all little bastards, except for Daeron. Who was the youngest and the last in the line of succession and thus had no say. Aegon really was a poor choice for a king and even Aemond, as vicious as he was, would have made a better choice-at least he was not lazy and as you say, had the biggest dragon. Wether Cole was behind the deaths of Harwin and Laenor, or involved in them, that is entirely possible I say. Especially when it comes to Breakbones. He never said much about Daemon because he knew Daemon was a tough nut to crack even for him. With his dragon and his fighting skills and experience, plus his fiery and dogged nature. I believe Daemon was the only man CC was at least a little intimidated by, if for nothing then because he knew he was willing to do anything to win and had a strong support. Plus, he was of royal blood.

By the way, isn't it interesting how none of Rhaenyra's sons with Breakbones survived, as if they were all doomed to die because they were begot "in sin" while her both sons with Daemon not only survived but became kings? It seems like, you know...only the true Targaryen seed was destined to make it. ;)

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The books have Jaime talk about Criston Cole somewhat but if you read TRP, TPatQ, and TWoIaF then it becomes clear that Cole and Jaime have nothing in common but the fact that they are both great warriors and members of the Kingsguard. Jaime loves his twin sister, Cole a Targaryen princess. Jaime is the heir of Casterly and golden boy of the West, Criston Cole the son of the steward of Blackhaven (basically a nobody). Cole seems to like power and involve himself into court politics, factions, and the government of the Realm (as Lord Commander) while Jaime wants nothing to do with this kind of thing.

Even the nature of the love of the Lannister twins for each other has nothing to do with Cole's feelings for Rhaenyra. He had the hots for a beautiful and unreachable girl whereas Jaime was in love with his twin sister his entire life. And in addition to the romantic feelings and sexual attraction Jaime and Cersei feel for each other they are also siblings, adding another layer to their relationship (and this goes also for all the Targaryen incest matches - those people are then both lovers as well as siblings and even if romantic love cools down - assuming it was there in the first place - they will always remain siblings for better or worse).

I don't think there is more to Jaime-Cole than Cole being a bad KG role model. But Jaime still could end up in his footsteps as a Kingmaker if he somehow ends up in camp Aegon and helps him ascend the Iron Throne by publicly confessing the fact that he is indeed the father of Cersei's children.

And who knows? Perhaps Jaime even ends up putting Aegon VI's crown on his head during his coronation (although I find it much more likely that Connington, Illyrio, or Varys are going to do that).

So, you don't believe Jaime will strangle Cersei? 

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6 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Well, if we look at Jaime atm he is showing several tendencies towards Cole-behaviour. Calling Cersei a whore constantly, extreme jealousy towards possible other sexpartners and a will to reevaluate the whole thing between them as an illusion. 

Not saying he is completely there yet, but he certainly do seem to have the same Whore/Madonna complex, at least in part. 

Edit: But I admit I am partial - mainly because I see Jaime as the worst human being of all POW-characters, even worse than Victarion and Cersei. 

Now, see, I like Jaime's character a lot (actually, I think 90 percent of the characters are great, but Jaime is one of the more interesting ones in my opinion). And I agree with you about him turning on Cersei and helping to crown Aegon (for which I think Aegon will send Jaime to the Wall). 

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4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, you don't believe Jaime will strangle Cersei? 

In a literal sense? Perhaps. But it could also be figuratively or metaphorical. The idea that Jaime eventually sneaks into Cersei's bedroom to literally strangle her there in some sort of awkward way involving his golden hand was always a rather strange image in my head.

We don't even know whether she is going to die in a literal way. She could survive the entire series only to suffer an Alicent-like fate in the end.

6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Now, see, I like Jaime's character a lot (actually, I think 90 percent of the characters are great, but Jaime is one of the more interesting ones in my opinion). And I agree with you about him turning on Cersei and helping to crown Aegon (for which I think Aegon will send Jaime to the Wall). 

If Jaime had to go to the Wall he would never crown Aegon. If something like that happens we'll see Aegon pardoning Jaime because he is aware of the whole Mad King thing and makes a great show of clemency and forgiveness in light of all that. I don't think Aerys' hatred of the Dornish has been included to serve no purpose. That could provide the perfect background for a setting in which Elia Martell's who is only the grandson of the Mad King plays the nice guy when dealing with the sole remaining 'Usurper's Dog'.

Thus Jaime could actually become a member of Aegon's Kingsguard - although most likely not as Lord Commander.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Cersei fooled him up to a point.

But again, Cersei and Jaime is a very different relationship. Cole is just a dude who was a member of a Sworn Brotherhood and had the hots for a girl. Jaime and Cersei are twins and have three children together.

I don't think Jaime and Cersei will have a similar falling out as Criston and Rhaenyra had nor do I think Jaime will meet as ignominious and pitiful an end as Criston did.

If Cersei hooks up with Euron Jaime will be not so much jealous as more afraid of what they might do together. The chance that we are going to see him becoming this deplorable guy you think he is is not very likely. And remember, that Cole never had an experience like the lost hand as Jaime did. He was a whole man until the end, although his reputation clearly went down the toilet when he crowned Aegon II.

I think Jaime fooled himself up with his moralistic bullshit philosophy, his hypocrisy and his romanic, childish idea of love. 

But since this thread is about Cole, I will say no more about the subject Jaime. I have written several posts on why he is a class A a-hole in other threads. 

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18 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Well, if we look at Jaime atm he is showing several tendencies towards Cole-behaviour. Calling Cersei a whore constantly, extreme jealousy towards possible other sexpartners and a will to reevaluate the whole thing between them as an illusion. 

Not saying he is completely there yet, but he certainly do seem to have the same Whore/Madonna complex, at least in part. 

Edit: But I admit I am partial - mainly because I see Jaime as the worst human being of all POW-characters, even worse than Victarion and Cersei. 

Why do you think so poorly of Jaime?

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14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Why do you think so poorly of Jaime?

Because he is a moralistic hypocrite do-gooder with a personality that sickens me and somehow believe he have the right, like a fucking superhero (which I most often hate) to do whatever he pleases to stop "bad people". His moral defense is laughable and he doesn´t even believe his "there are so many oaths" bs since he have no problem motivating those oaths in other cases.

These threads (as well as the following discussions) summarizes up most of it. In addition, this thread about Daredevil (and my post) is a critique of the "psyke" that I despise (and which I think Jaime fits). 

 

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