Robb had no choice

[Canon Claude]

I've heard several people say that Robb should not have marched south to free his father and sisters, as it led to him entering a war which he had no chance of ultimately winning. 

But really, what were his other options? If he did nothing, no Northern lord would have ever taken his orders. And if he marched south to swear allegiance to Joffrey, he would likely have been taken hostage or even killed because Joffrey hadn't seen someone suffer that particular day.

Going to war was Robb's only option, especially given that both sides of his family were under attack by the Lannisters. Victory was the only option.

[James Steller]

Robb did indeed have no real choice in the matter; he was put into a very unfair position by both his parents, basically. Going to war was the only way for House Stark to preserve itself. I agree that Joffrey and Cersei wouldn't just have Robb come south, give an oath, and then just ride back like nothing was wrong. They likely would have imprisoned him and made him agree to several concessions that the North must give to show their loyalty. Maybe more hostages, or financial instalments, but either way, Cersei would want the North grovelling at her feet.

[The Wolves]

42 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Robb did indeed have no real choice in the matter; he was put into a very unfair position by both his parents, basically. Going to war was the only way for House Stark to preserve itself. I agree that Joffrey and Cersei wouldn't just have Robb come south, give an oath, and then just ride back like nothing was wrong. They likely would have imprisoned him and made him agree to several concessions that the North must give to show their loyalty. Maybe more hostages, or financial instalments, but either way, Cersei would want the North grovelling at her feet.

Joffery would have killed Robb, the inbreed sadistic little bitch. 

But Robb had a choice not a good one, but he had one and he didn't choose wrong IMO. 

[cgrav]

The North could have sealed itself up and refused to be ruled by the southron King. Robb could have married some other northern woman and bred royalty. He'd just be the biggest wuss ever. But it also doesn't make much sense for Robb to march to his sisters' freedom. If they're in danger during peace, they're most certainly dead if Robb tries to take them by force. Hostages are worthless if they don't purchase good behavior. 

I think Robb could have had much better options had he been a deft enough commander and politician. We saw Tywin end the war by writing a few letters, so we know it's possible to win or lose without killing innumerable innocent people. But because pride, honor, and such are currency in Northern politics, anything less than bloody war was risky, as well. Robb probably would have had to rule harshly to prevent discord.

[1000th Lord Commander]

I agree that Robb had little choice but to go to war. There is no way, even before Ned lost his head, that Ceresi and Joffrey were going to let him remain a virtually independent Lord, particularly in light of the growing threat from Stannis and Renly. At the very least, Ceresi would have wanted someone tame in charge of the Northern armies and sent them against Stannis or Renly.

And I would disagree with people who said he had no chance of winning, since Robb didn't want the Iron Throne. Had he managed to secure an alliance with Balon or Lysa, he would have been a bigger threat to the Lannisters, and could have walked into the Red Keep anyway. Same if the Tyrells hadn't joined Tywin or Renly moved faster to take KL. He could have got his sisters back by acknowledging the new king, if Renly or Stannis sat the throne, or even been wed to Shireen and proclaimed Stannis' heir

[The Ice Wolf of Loki]

Robb should have offered Sansa in marriage to Willas Tyrell with the Westerlands as the Dowry if the Reach would support them and the North would remain neutral in the Stannis/Renly conflict with the Riverlands as a bargaining chip to use with the eventual winner.

I'd imagine Balon would have been more inclined to go with Robb's offer if it had included the Reach as an allied force also invading the Westerlands.

[cgrav]

45 minutes ago, 1000th Lord Commander said:

 

since Robb didn't want the Iron Throne. 

This is pretty much why the reasons for going south are dubious. Especially after Ned's death, what was there to gain? He "had" to go to war, but not for any objectively good reason. It certainly wasn't the decision most likely to keep him and his people safe.

[Lord Lannister]

Robb had every reason to go south. Those reasons dramatically changed after Joffrey beheaded Ned however. Oddly enough, I think his best chance to win the war, or at least exit it on bearable terms, was at the Green Fork. As Feast showed, Riverrun would've held for at least awhile, so there was no immediate need to relieve Riverrun.

If Robb engaged Tywin with his full force, perhaps even with Lord Frey joining him, it's possible he could've beaten Tywin. Not likely, but possible. Even had he lost, Tywin likely would've been inclined to offer Robb relatively magnanimous terms given the threat of Renly and Stannis.

By capturing Jaime, Robb pinned the proverbial lion into a corner and made him lash out all the harder. Tywin was always the one who needed to be beaten, and who would ultimately make peace. Not Joffrey or Cersei.

[GallowsKnight]

36 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Robb had every reason to go south. Those reasons dramatically changed after Joffrey beheaded Ned however. Oddly enough, I think his best chance to win the war, or at least exit it on bearable terms, was at the Green Fork. As Feast showed, Riverrun would've held for at least awhile, so there was no immediate need to relieve Riverrun.

If Robb engaged Tywin with his full force, perhaps even with Lord Frey joining him, it's possible he could've beaten Tywin. Not likely, but possible. Even had he lost, Tywin likely would've been inclined to offer Robb relatively magnanimous terms given the threat of Renly and Stannis.

By capturing Jaime, Robb pinned the proverbial lion into a corner and made him lash out all the harder. Tywin was always the one who needed to be beaten, and who would ultimately make peace. Not Joffrey or Cersei.

Edmure was prisoner so there was that part in heading for Riverrun. But I agree attacking Tywin might have been the better option. He might have beaten him (if he could sneak up like Roose did and run Greywind along the horselines). He would have had as many or more men than Tywin with the Freys.

 Or if he lost. He could have surrendered and made peace terms with the Lannister when the war hadn't gotten so heated yet. Tywin would have wanted that so he could turn around and fight the Baratheon Brothers.

Edit: The more I think about it Robb's problem was he performed too well early in the War, but couldn't maintain things as it went on. This put him in a tricky position having been crowned and Tywin basically wanting him dead. Had he just done the less tactically brillant thing of attacking Tywin head on he might have won outright or at least been able to bend the knee while preserving some dignity.

[devilish]

Robb had no choice but to go to war. However he made some serious mistakes along the way which caused him the war. The war was his to lose. 

a- Robb could have easily pledged allegiance to Renly. Their combined force (North, Riverlands, Stormlands and Reach) would have wiped the Lannisters away in no time. If Stannis did managed to kill Renly, then Robb would have been in the perfect spot to sort a deal with the Tyrells. Who knows, maybe Mace could have been persuaded in taking the crown on his son behalf especially if that came with the North and the Riverlands support. Alternatively they could bend the knee to Stannis. 

b- Not informing Edmure of the plans. Robb's trap for Tywin was clever, however you cant expect Edmure to read his mind. 

c- Not keeping his promises with Walder. A king who doesn't keep his word is no king at all, especially in time of war when every soldier counts.

d- Punishing Lord Karstark. Discipline is needed at war however you can't really start chopping heads off especially since mummy did much worse then any bannermen had done.

[Canon Claude]

7 hours ago, The Ice Wolf of Loki said:

Robb should have offered Sansa in marriage to Willas Tyrell with the Westerlands as the Dowry if the Reach would support them and the North would remain neutral in the Stannis/Renly conflict with the Riverlands as a bargaining chip to use with the eventual winner.

I'd imagine Balon would have been more inclined to go with Robb's offer if it had included the Reach as an allied force also invading the Westerlands.

If Robb offered something which was never his to give, then the Reach would have rightfully laughed in his face. 

And Balon was a crazy, bitter old man too stubborn to have the good sense that his father did. Even if the Reach did attack the Westerlands, Balon would still want to pay the iron price.

[Protagoras]

Going to war was Robb's only realistic option, sure. His way to handle said war could certainly have been better though. 

[jrod]

4 hours ago, devilish said:

Robb had no choice but to go to war. However he made some serious mistakes along the way which caused him the war. The war was his to lose. 

a- Robb could have easily pledged allegiance to Renly. Their combined force (North, Riverlands, Stormlands and Reach) would have wiped the Lannisters away in no time. If Stannis did managed to kill Renly, then Robb would have been in the perfect spot to sort a deal with the Tyrells. Who knows, maybe Mace could have been persuaded in taking the crown on his son behalf especially if that came with the North and the Riverlands support. Alternatively they could bend the knee to Stannis. 

b- Not informing Edmure of the plans. Robb's trap for Tywin was clever, however you cant expect Edmure to read his mind. 

c- Not keeping his promises with Walder. A king who doesn't keep his word is no king at all, especially in time of war when every soldier counts.

d- Punishing Lord Karstark. Discipline is needed at war however you can't really start chopping heads off especially since mummy did much worse then any bannermen had done.

a- I don't think he could really justify supporting Renly.  As I know he flat out said in the show, Renly (if you are going off rightful Baratheon heir) is not the next in line, it would have been Stannis.  Robb was raised with that sense of duty/honor that his father had, he wouldn't support an "illegitimate" heir when the rightful heir was right there.  I think if Robb's men hadn't named him KiTN, then most likely he would have supported Stannis and things would have played out different.  But once his men named him king, there was little he could do.  Stannis would NEVER have allowed him to be KiTN and Stannis king in the south or something like that.  Not sure how Robb could have told his bannermen, who made him king, that he wasn't going to be KiTN, just lord of Winterfell under King Stannis, don't think that would have went over well with the men who needed to keep following him into battle.

b- While I kind of agree with you, not sure of all the specifics of that situation.  But Edmure did disobey the orders he was given, which was wrong on his part.  Even if he didn't know exactly why (and probably he should have known), he should have followed the orders he was givne.

c- I understand why Robb did what he did as far as marrying Jeyne Westerling, but I agree he shouldn't have done it.  That was what turned out to be the biggest mistake he ever made.

d- Completely disagree.  Rickard murdered prisoners that were in essence under Robb's protection.  It was unfortunate, but he carried out the just punishment for that.  I think what Catelyn while disobeying her king as well, wasn't as bad as murdering prisoners.

[devilish]

53 minutes ago, jrod said:

a- I don't think he could really justify supporting Renly.  As I know he flat out said in the show, Renly (if you are going off rightful Baratheon heir) is not the next in line, it would have been Stannis.  Robb was raised with that sense of duty/honor that his father had, he wouldn't support an "illegitimate" heir when the rightful heir was right there.  I think if Robb's men hadn't named him KiTN, then most likely he would have supported Stannis and things would have played out different.  But once his men named him king, there was little he could do.  Stannis would NEVER have allowed him to be KiTN and Stannis king in the south or something like that.  Not sure how Robb could have told his bannermen, who made him king, that he wasn't going to be KiTN, just lord of Winterfell under King Stannis, don't think that would have went over well with the men who needed to keep following him into battle.

b- While I kind of agree with you, not sure of all the specifics of that situation.  But Edmure did disobey the orders he was given, which was wrong on his part.  Even if he didn't know exactly why (and probably he should have known), he should have followed the orders he was givne.

c- I understand why Robb did what he did as far as marrying Jeyne Westerling, but I agree he shouldn't have done it.  That was what turned out to be the biggest mistake he ever made.

d- Completely disagree.  Rickard murdered prisoners that were in essence under Robb's protection.  It was unfortunate, but he carried out the just punishment for that.  I think what Catelyn while disobeying her king as well, wasn't as bad as murdering prisoners.

A-    If Robb was truly as honourable as daddy taught him to be then he would have refused to put a crown that wasn’t his on his head. He would have also kept his promise with the Freys. Robb had a mind of his own. Also the Northerners couldn’t give a rat’s arse who sits on the iron throne. All they wanted was for this war to end up quickly and to have the Starks back (Eddard, Sansa and Arya). If they end up dead then they wanted revenge. Renly was the best option they had to achieve that.  Strictly speaking Robb could join Renly without actually bending the knee. The northerners would promise to fight at Renly’s side as long as the ones fighting against is not Stannis. It’s a deal that works both ways. Renly could rely on an extra 30k-40k army which would turn his immense force into an unstoppable horde. Robb would boost his chances of getting his father and sisters back. After the war is over, Joffrey’s and the twin’s head are placed on a stick, then Renly would have all the time in the world to negotiate an acceptable deal with Eddard (if he’s still alive) or Robb. If Robb is wise enough he would ask for more lands (part of the Westerlands for his little brother?), a prestigious role (hand of the king?) and offer Sansa to marry Willas in exchange of him bending the knee to Renly. Robb would return victorious, Renly would become king and everyone would live happy ever after.

B-    Edmure was older then Robb and a Lord Paramount on his own right. The war was being fought in his own turf. He should have been kept updated

C-    It was incredibly stupid especially since Robb needed those troops

D-    Cat freed Tywin’s heir and one of the finest swordsmen in Westeros. That’s also treason.  How can Robb be taken seriously if he refuses to punish mummy at least at the same level of Lord Karstark? How many soldiers had Lady Cat committed to the Northern cause? After all, this whole mess up was all Starks-Tully doing. Cat kidnapped Tyrion, Eddard revealed his secret to Cersei and Edmure couldn’t even keep his own lands safe. The Karstarks were simply trying to sort the mess created by these two families and they paid quite a price for it.
 

 

[kimim]

8 hours ago, cgrav said:

This is pretty much why the reasons for going south are dubious. Especially after Ned's death, what was there to gain? He "had" to go to war, but not for any objectively good reason. It certainly wasn't the decision most likely to keep him and his people safe.

This. I've never figured out what he's trying to achieve after Ned's death. He never says that he wants the throne. Is he specifically fighting the Lannisters to avenge Ned's death? Is he fighting to secure the Riverlands? In comparison, every other "king's" cause is clear: Tywin is defending Joffrey, who wants to keep the throne. Stannis and Renly want the IT. Balon wants to return to harrying Westeros.

Accepting the crown is stupid, in that it puts Robb in opposition to everyone else when he doesn't even want the IT. The crown makes it impossible for him to make an alliance with Stannis after Renly's death. Even Renly puts conditions on an eventual alliance. 

Edmure's mistake with Tywin is Robb's responsibility. It's Robb's job to tell his lords what his plans are. This is not the marine corps. Edmure does not have to kill his brain and obey unquestioningly, which means Robb needs to tell him his strategy, his goals.

Marrying Jeyne is a problem, in that Frey can use it for the RW, but the RW is Tywin's decision, anyway. Had Stannis won Blackwater, there would have been no RW, and Stannis might have won, had he been allied with Robb. So I'm back to Robb's crown as Robb's stupid move.

[James Steller]

25 minutes ago, kimim said:

This. I've never figured out what he's trying to achieve after Ned's death. He never says that he wants the throne. Is he specifically fighting the Lannisters to avenge Ned's death? Is he fighting to secure the Riverlands? In comparison, every other "king's" cause is clear: Tywin is defending Joffrey, who wants to keep the throne. Stannis and Renly want the IT. Balon wants to return to harrying Westeros.

Robb had three main grievances with the Lannisters: their assault on the Riverlands, their execution of Ned and his household guards, and their taking of both the Stark sword Ice and the Stark girls. All three of these things had to be dealt with, and the only way Robb was going to do that was to defeat them in the field, since Jaime's imprisonment did nothing to resolve things.

27 minutes ago, kimim said:

Accepting the crown is stupid, in that it puts Robb in opposition to everyone else when he doesn't even want the IT. The crown makes it impossible for him to make an alliance with Stannis after Renly's death. Even Renly puts conditions on an eventual alliance. 

To be fair, Robb was a 15 year old boy who just lost his father and got his first taste of ruling the North both at home and on the battlefield. He's won two battles which are triumphs. What the heck did you expect him to do when his nobles all start declaring him to be their king?

And even if he did have the sense to not want the crown, how could he possibly refuse the crown in that scenario? What was he going to say that didn't sound weak to his Northmen?

[kimim]

13 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Robb had three main grievances with the Lannisters: their assault on the Riverlands, their execution of Ned and his household guards, and their taking of both the Stark sword Ice and the Stark girls. All three of these things had to be dealt with, and the only way Robb was going to do that was to defeat them in the field, since Jaime's imprisonment did nothing to resolve things.

To be fair, Robb was a 15 year old boy who just lost his father and got his first taste of ruling the North both at home and on the battlefield. He's won two battles which are triumphs. What the heck did you expect him to do when his nobles all start declaring him to be their king?

And even if he did have the sense to not want the crown, how could he possibly refuse the crown in that scenario? What was he going to say that didn't sound weak to his Northmen?

I understand that he's a fifteen-year-old boy, but he's surrounded by older, more experienced people. That they crown him is idiotic. They are, in effect, declaring independence for the North, which is a major thing, yet it's done on a whim. Then, instead of going back home with their king and protecting their borders (they declared independence and have every reason to return and reinforce) they stay in the south and keep fighting...for what?

As for ways of refusing the crown: This crown is coming out of nowhere. Robb could sit with a bunch of advisers and consider the ramifications of accepting it. Robb could say that they're there to do justice to Ned's memory, and that Ned would not look kindly upon an independent North. Any number of ways of refusing a crown and an independent North. That Robb is fifteen can take things only so far.

 

[devilish]

28 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Robb had three main grievances with the Lannisters: their assault on the Riverlands, their execution of Ned and his household guards, and their taking of both the Stark sword Ice and the Stark girls. All three of these things had to be dealt with, and the only way Robb was going to do that was to defeat them in the field, since Jaime's imprisonment did nothing to resolve things.

To be fair, Robb was a 15 year old boy who just lost his father and got his first taste of ruling the North both at home and on the battlefield. He's won two battles which are triumphs. What the heck did you expect him to do when his nobles all start declaring him to be their king?

And even if he did have the sense to not want the crown, how could he possibly refuse the crown in that scenario? What was he going to say that didn't sound weak to his Northmen?

Jamie Lannister's imprisonment sorted nothing simply because Robb refused to make good use of him. He knew that he was such a prized asset that will eventually slip from his fingers in one way (ie someone would kill him) or another (ie someone would help him escape). Instead of making good use of him (ie use Jamie as a leverage to get Sansa/Arya back or/and seal a peace treaty with the crown with Tywin) he kept moving him from one place to another until shit hit fan

[Chebyshov]

ASOIAF is all about the intersection of the personal and the political, and how that motivates people to behave in certain ways. Sometimes it's tragic, sometimes it's able to be framed as noble...more times than not its grey. But I sincerely doubt we're supposed to be looking at any situation as some immutable fate the poor bby was subjected to.

Of course he had a choice. Cat even points this out to him when she tells him "you shouldn't have ever left Winterfell" (but basically concludes he's come "too far" and going back would make him look silly). But the point is that he chose, partly due to his flaws, partly due to his understanding of duty. And frankly he's situated in Cat's PoV so this is really all framed by her feelings on the matter and her struggles with wanting the safety of her family while also a sense of justice and recourse.

[cgrav]

Robb had grievances, but how was invading the south supposed to address them? It was vengeance, which is valued by the fictional culture to which Robb belongs, but does nothing to secure the release of of his family. He abandoned a huge defensive advantage by going south of Moat Cailin, and that choice bottlenecked his troops physically as well as his decision making. Once Robb lost the option of retreat, the war became a suicide mission.