Robert Baratheon and Brandon Stark

[devilish]

The friendship between Eddard and Robert was legendary. Both made their bones at the Vale and their friendship proved instrumental in getting rid of Aerys and keep Robert on the iron throne. In Eddard Robert found a brother and a trusted friend. Someone who would go to hell and back for him, who would close an eye to his weaknesses and who will be honest with him without overstepping the line between a subject and his superior. Such characteristics were evident prior to Robert’s rebellion. Eddard took Robert’s side even when his own sister criticized her future husband and would rather hurt his own wife and treat his own nephew as a bastard then reveal the truth (assuming R+L=J)

However what would have happened if Brandon didn’t die (and Rickard did)?

Brandon is described as the wild wolf, someone who wouldn’t mind barging into situations without thinking about the consequences. He was tall, strong and he was excellent with the sword.That’s quite significant when taken into contest. Unlike Eddard who took a secondary role in the rebellion, Brandon would have lead from the front just like Robert did. Since the North is more loyal to their Lord Paramount then the Stormlands, then we can presume that he will amass more troops then Robert could. Therefore you’ll have a charismatic leader, head of a big and aggressive army, charging against the enemy (he’ll probably be able to bring the Riverlands under his banners too) and building quite a reputation for himself in the process on one side. Meanwhile Robert would still be struggling down South trying to capture the entire Stormlands.  Would that same man, whom unlike a second son wasn’t brought to see Robert as someone of a higher ranking then him, be able to bend the knee to him?

Another key argument is family. Brandon absolutely loved family. If it was for him he would have ripped Rhaegar into pieces for appointing Lyanna as Lady of beauty (something that didn’t piss off neither Ned nor Robert), he closed an eye to Littlefinger’s insult by keeping him alive to appease Cat and he was the only one to take immediate action to get his sister back by charging down to KL.  How would Brandon act to the ‘promise me Brandon’ pact with Lyanna? I can’t see this man, hiding behind a lie to avoid confronting Robert and there’s no way on earth that Robert would get close to Lyanna’s boy while Brandon is still around.

So in few words you have a hot headed leader on one side who hate the Targs and thinks he’s that some drop of Targ blood somewhere qualifies him as the next king of Westeros. On the other hand you’ve got another hot headed leader, who committed more troops to the cause, whose got better alliances then Robert does (he’s married to Cat Tully and Jon Arryn is married to Lysa) and whose nephew has more claim to the throne than Robert does. How would that end?

[Universal Sword Donor]

In what scenario would Brandon not have died but Rickard would have? Ned and Robert only rebelled along with Jon Arryn when their heads were called for.

[estermonty python]

Seems like what you're really asking is, "would there have been a civil war between Brandon and Robert at some point?"  To which I would say, I dunno, maybe?  Where is his support coming from?  It doesn't really make a ton of sense to say that Brandon's alliances are "better" than Roberts, as they are the same alliances.  But if I'm going along with your logic that the alliance could split, Robert fostered with Jon Arryn, and it was Arryn refusing to serve up Ned and Robert that started the war, so no, I don't see Jon going to war with Robert at all.  At best he'd be neutral.  

Honestly this whole scenario reminds me of something out of a mafia movie.  Probably mostly because Brandon is just a medieval Sonny Corleone (I've said this before, but it bears repeating).  If he didn't die at the hands of Aerys, he'd have died in some other gambit his enemies designed to get him to come running without a proper plan.  If not, we're talking about the North attempting to seize the IT by might alone and backstabbing their Stormland allies, with the Arryns uncomfortably neutral and the Tullys, in the very best case, unhappy and reticent allies.  All it would take is one meeting between Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn to come to the conclusion that the #2 Stark brother has no appetite for war and would support his BFF Robert, and Brandon would likely meet with a mysterious accident if he did anything other than bend the knee.  That's just how I see it.  4 kingdoms aren't going to get dragged into war just because Brandon Stark is too proud to kneel.

[WSmith84]

5 hours ago, devilish said:

Another key argument is family. Brandon absolutely loved family. If it was for him he would have ripped Rhaegar into pieces for appointing Lyanna as Lady of beauty (something that didn’t piss off neither Ned nor Robert).

Not true actually. TWOIAF says that Ned was no more pleased than Brandon (just calmer) and that, while Robert laughed about it openly, he was majorly pissed. Besides, Brandon being furious about Rhaegar's actions isn't necessarily indicative of love. It could just as much have been about family honour as love.

[Infinate]

I think he is asking more along the lines of, would it have ever been just accepted that Robert should be named King at all.  Rather than everyone just going along with that idea since Robert had the best claim and was the charasmatic leader...  could the kingdom have fractured into multiple kingdoms or could a Fiery Charismatic Brandon leading an aggressive army south with a Tully Bride have put forth a claim that instead of placing another leader on the throne based on Targ blood, perhaps a Stark should rule?   Honestly I think it would come down to the personalities or relations between Robert and Brandon..  would one be able to cow the other or would it come to blows or a breaking of the alliance?  

[devilish]

4 hours ago, estermonty python said:

Seems like what you're really asking is, "would there have been a civil war between Brandon and Robert at some point?"  To which I would say, I dunno, maybe?  Where is his support coming from?  It doesn't really make a ton of sense to say that Brandon's alliances are "better" than Roberts, as they are the same alliances.  But if I'm going along with your logic that the alliance could split, Robert fostered with Jon Arryn, and it was Arryn refusing to serve up Ned and Robert that started the war, so no, I don't see Jon going to war with Robert at all.  At best he'd be neutral.  

Honestly this whole scenario reminds me of something out of a mafia movie.  Probably mostly because Brandon is just a medieval Sonny Corleone (I've said this before, but it bears repeating).  If he didn't die at the hands of Aerys, he'd have died in some other gambit his enemies designed to get him to come running without a proper plan.  If not, we're talking about the North attempting to seize the IT by might alone and backstabbing their Stormland allies, with the Arryns uncomfortably neutral and the Tullys, in the very best case, unhappy and reticent allies.  All it would take is one meeting between Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn to come to the conclusion that the #2 Stark brother has no appetite for war and would support his BFF Robert, and Brandon would likely meet with a mysterious accident if he did anything other than bend the knee.  That's just how I see it.  4 kingdoms aren't going to get dragged into war just because Brandon Stark is too proud to kneel.

a- Brandon's alliances are bound by blood (ie both Stark and Arryn are married to a Tully) and honour. Arryn rebelled because what the King asked from him was not honourable (ie he wanted two innocent boys to die). How would he act if Robert wanted an innocent boy to die? How could he even look straight in his bannermen eyes and tell them to sit on this one because Jon is not Robert or Ned? Also Brandon had plenty of trump cards to play. The Martells were still pissed off. The Greyjoys were itching for war and the Tyrells should have scared of Robert becoming king considering that Stannis was married to a claimant of their own land. Not to forget that the royalists were horrified to what happened to Elia and her children. Brandon would only have to marry off Benjen to Asha and Ned to some Tyrell girl with the promise of Jon marrying some other Tyrell girl from Mace/Willas offspring when possible and he might as well have a full scale army at his back.

b- I agree with the Sonny Corleone analogy. There again Robert is pretty much the same. You'll have two Sonny Corleone's here and we both know that neither of them will back off. The wisest thing to do is to have Robert as Lord Protector of the realm and his daughter being married off to Jon Targ, Brandon's nephew and rightful king. However we both know that both guys wont think straight. Robert wanted every dragon spawn killed, no if, no buts. Brandon would probably stick his warhammer in his a.... if he dares moving towards Lyanna's son and rightful heir to the throne

[devilish]

3 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Not true actually. TWOIAF says that Ned was no more pleased than Brandon (just calmer) and that, while Robert laughed about it openly, he was majorly pissed. Besides, Brandon being furious about Rhaegar's actions isn't necessarily indicative of love. It could just as much have been about family honour as love.

I never seen somebody laughing because he's pissed off. Also Brandon was more close to Lyanna than any of the remaining siblings. Lady Dustin recalls the hours they spent riding horses together, a relationship you wouldn't see with any other sibling apart from the Lannister twins (which lets say that was creepy). Brandon was the one who wanted to rip Rhaegar's head off during the tournament and the one who left everything to challenge Rhaegar in KL. Its evident that the guy loved his sister more than anyone else (although not the same way Jamie loved Cersei)

[devilish]

5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

In what scenario would Brandon not have died but Rickard would have? Ned and Robert only rebelled along with Jon Arryn when their heads were called for.

Aerys was unpredictable. Maybe Rickard would have gone to KL himself to protest for his daughter's kidnapping (a perfectly reasonable way of doing things) and would have ended dead just the same

[BlueNightzx]

Is really hard to read ned's emotions, at this point, its basically confirmed that jon is rhaegar child, so, the lack of anger or resentment from him towards Rhaegar is because he knows  that lyanna loved him, or he just have indeed ice for blood?

i also agrees that no one was happy about rhargar naming lyanna queen of love and beauty, but indeed ned and robert personalities are very diffrent from brandon, brandon was more straightforward, neds is more methodical and robert avoid conflicts, or they just didn't realize the full extent of the insult to their houses? at this point brandon was fully bred to be the next lord of winterfell, and was more aware of the honor of his house and social aspects of such events and actions.

but in general, even if ned cut some slack to rhaegar for lyana, i think he is way too soft on the targaryens, she loving him or not, house targaryen fucked his house and was responsible to the death's of his brother and father, and indirectly of his sister as well.

[WSmith84]

2 hours ago, devilish said:

I never seen somebody laughing because he's pissed off. Also Brandon was more close to Lyanna than any of the remaining siblings. Lady Dustin recalls the hours they spent riding horses together, a relationship you wouldn't see with any other sibling apart from the Lannister twins (which lets say that was creepy). Brandon was the one who wanted to rip Rhaegar's head off during the tournament and the one who left everything to challenge Rhaegar in KL. Its evident that the guy loved his sister more than anyone else (although not the same way Jamie loved Cersei)

Oh come on: you've never seen someone fake a reaction (like laughing) when they actually feel very differently? Really?

Benjen is the one who seemed to have the closest connection to Lyanna. They practiced with swords together, something Lyanna would only do with someone she trusted. Again, Brandon getting angry does equal love; it could easily have been his family's honour he was concerned with, not his sister. I'm not saying he didn't care about Lyanna, but it's definitely not evidence of love. Particularly as his words in KL were 'come out and die!' rather than 'where is my sister?!' According to Jaime, at least, and I have no reason to doubt him on this issue.

[devilish]

9 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Oh come on: you've never seen someone fake a reaction (like laughing) when they actually feel very differently? Really?

Benjen is the one who seemed to have the closest connection to Lyanna. They practiced with swords together, something Lyanna would only do with someone she trusted. Again, Brandon getting angry does equal love; it could easily have been his family's honour he was concerned with, not his sister. I'm not saying he didn't care about Lyanna, but it's definitely not evidence of love. Particularly as his words in KL were 'come out and die!' rather than 'where is my sister?!' According to Jaime, at least, and I have no reason to doubt him on this issue.

Lyanna shared similar traits to Brandon (she was wild, an extrovert, she took personal responsibility towards family and bannermen and she was fiercely protective to the ones she loved) and spent a long time with Brandon, something that's relatively rare with noble brothers and sisters (Willas-Margaery, Cersei-Tyrion, Joffrey/Tommen-Myrcella, Arriane-Trystane etc). Maybe the pup was closer to Lyanna then the wild wolf. However in this specific argument he's out of the picture 

I am more concerned about Ned's feelings towards Robert then towards Lyanna. When Lyanna told Ned that his friend is dodge bag who basically can't keep it in his pants, Ned took his bro mate's side by basically telling her to suck it up. Ned kept sucking at Robert in every occasion throughout his entire life. He fought his wars, he lied to his wife and denied his nephew his birthright for fear of hurting his feelings.. He even killed his own daughter's innocent pet breaking her heart because Robert told him to do so. Would Brandon show the same degree of servitude to Robert? I seriously doubt it.

Regarding Brandon's reaction I think that Brandon knew something the others two didn't. Lets face it Robert was shite in understanding women and he wouldn't notice someone cuckolding him even if they were doing it in the same room. Ned on the other hand was an introvert who had few friends (he needed his big bro to set him for a dance) and therefore was out of the loop most of the time. Brandon was an extrovert and was set to marry Cat Tully. He should have had loads of friends in the Harrenhal area and if something fishy was going on at Harrenhal, Brandon would probably know. I wont be surprised if during the tournament, Brandon had made it obvious that he's not happy with Rhaegar getting too close to Lyanna. Which enforces my theory that Brandon wasn't the type who tend to follow the stict code of ethics between superior and subject. We're talking here of a man who didn't thought twice to defy his father and march inside his king's quarters demanding a duel with the crown prince. He wont humiliate his own nephew by calling him a bastard, he wont deny him from his birthright and he'll certainly wont let Robert to come any close to him with a warhammer

[Free Northman Reborn]

I suspect that had Brandon been the Lord of Winterfell during the Rebellion, we would have skipped the pointless 15-year interval and would have had the Greatjon's King in the North speech immediately after the Battle of the Trident. A younger, more hot blooded Greatjon at that, if such a thing is possible.

 

[estermonty python]

12 hours ago, devilish said:

a- Brandon's alliances are bound by blood (ie both Stark and Arryn are married to a Tully) and honour. Arryn rebelled because what the King asked from him was not honourable (ie he wanted two innocent boys to die). How would he act if Robert wanted an innocent boy to die? How could he even look straight in his bannermen eyes and tell them to sit on this one because Jon is not Robert or Ned? Also Brandon had plenty of trump cards to play. The Martells were still pissed off. The Greyjoys were itching for war and the Tyrells should have scared of Robert becoming king considering that Stannis was married to a claimant of their own land. Not to forget that the royalists were horrified to what happened to Elia and her children. Brandon would only have to marry off Benjen to Asha and Ned to some Tyrell girl with the promise of Jon marrying some other Tyrell girl from Mace/Willas offspring when possible and he might as well have a full scale army at his back.

b- I agree with the Sonny Corleone analogy. There again Robert is pretty much the same. You'll have two Sonny Corleone's here and we both know that neither of them will back off. The wisest thing to do is to have Robert as Lord Protector of the realm and his daughter being married off to Jon Targ, Brandon's nephew and rightful king. However we both know that both guys wont think straight. Robert wanted every dragon spawn killed, no if, no buts. Brandon would probably stick his warhammer in his a.... if he dares moving towards Lyanna's son and rightful heir to the throne

There's a lot here.  I just...don't agree with any of it.

First, we have the problem that we always run into when we pose hypothetical revisionist history: the butterfly effect.  OK so Brandon's not dead.  what about Brandon's companions?  If that whole incident never happens, 1) the rebellion probably never gets started, or gets started for different reasons, and 2) Elbert Arryn is still alive, as is Denys Arryn, and there is no need for Jon Arryn to sire an heir to the Vale.  At any rate, the fact that Jon marries a Tully, and another Tully is married to a Stark, does not mean that the Arryns are bound by blood to the Starks.  Alliances don't work like that - if they did, by that logic, the Reach sides with the Baratheons in both the rebellion and the ensuing hypothetical civil war between the rebel forces, since Stannis is married into House Florent, which in turn is married to House Hightower and House Tarly.

As for honor, its not like Jon Arryn pulled his support from Robert when he accepted the rape and murder of Elia and her children; by all accounts, the only one who raised a fuss was Ned.  Also, respectfully, I totally disagree that Arryn rebelled because of "honor" - he rebelled because 1) they were plotting a rebellion anyway, this just accellerated it; and 2) Ned and Robert were like his own kids, and they thought of him as a second father.  

I also fail to see how any of those other Houses are "trump cards," although I'll grant you that a Martell/Stark alliance in that scenario would be likely.  The Martells wanted Viserys raised to the throne, so I could buy that going public with Jon's birth could potentially garner Martell support for an opposition to Robert.  At the same time, it would be a lot to get over, since Rhaegar abandoned Elia for Lyanna, so its not a given.  The Greyjoys - oh man.  That's a post unto itself.  Quellon Greyjoy was not itching for war - he was itching for neutrality.  His sons convinced him to join the fray, and his contributions were minimal.  When he died, first of all the Greyjoys were busy electing Balon as the new Lord, and second of all what Balon was really itching for was his own rebellion.  I see nothing advantageous about joining either side; rather, the most likely scenario is that he would do exactly what he did in the real narrative - twice - declare independence the second he sensed weakness and/or discord on the mainland. The Tyrells - now that's just twisting logic to suit your argument.  Using loyal Tyrell bannermen to forge alliances with other Houses is a positive thing for House Tyrell - a good example is the appointment of Randyll Tarly and Mathis Rowan to the Small Council.  Their elevation is not "scary" to House Tyrell, it's desired, because elevating the status of their bannermen increases the wealth of the entire region, and there's no indication whatsoever that the Florents or any other bannermen are disloyal or dissatisfied with their Reach overlords.

 I do agree, however, that if Jon's identity were public a royalist/Stark alliance could make a lot of sense.  

AS for the marriage alliances, what possible reason would Balon have for marrying Asha off to a mainlander?  That would serve no strategic purpose, and his people would deride him for it.  There also is no "Tyrell girl" to marry Ned off to - we can't just invent characters to fit the argument.  

Lastly, I don't really see any evidence of Robert being hot-tempered to his detriment.  Warmongering, sure.  Short attention span - maybe.  Whoring - definitely.  But he doesn't rush headlong into a trap or do something strategically idiotic, the way Brandon does, which is where the Sonny Corleone analogy comes from.  Also Robert doesn't have a daughter or a wife at this time, so I don't see where your marriage alliance idea comes from.

 

Sorry to be negative - I'm just not seeing it at all.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

16 hours ago, devilish said:

Aerys was unpredictable. Maybe Rickard would have gone to KL himself to protest for his daughter's kidnapping (a perfectly reasonable way of doing things) and would have ended dead just the same

Yes so how would Brandon have lived? That's my point.

[devilish]

4 hours ago, estermonty python said:

There's a lot here.  I just...don't agree with any of it.

First, we have the problem that we always run into when we pose hypothetical revisionist history: the butterfly effect.  OK so Brandon's not dead.  what about Brandon's companions?  If that whole incident never happens, 1) the rebellion probably never gets started, or gets started for different reasons, and 2) Elbert Arryn is still alive, as is Denys Arryn, and there is no need for Jon Arryn to sire an heir to the Vale.  At any rate, the fact that Jon marries a Tully, and another Tully is married to a Stark, does not mean that the Arryns are bound by blood to the Starks.  Alliances don't work like that - if they did, by that logic, the Reach sides with the Baratheons in both the rebellion and the ensuing hypothetical civil war between the rebel forces, since Stannis is married into House Florent, which in turn is married to House Hightower and House Tarly.

As for honor, its not like Jon Arryn pulled his support from Robert when he accepted the rape and murder of Elia and her children; by all accounts, the only one who raised a fuss was Ned.  Also, respectfully, I totally disagree that Arryn rebelled because of "honor" - he rebelled because 1) they were plotting a rebellion anyway, this just accellerated it; and 2) Ned and Robert were like his own kids, and they thought of him as a second father.  

I also fail to see how any of those other Houses are "trump cards," although I'll grant you that a Martell/Stark alliance in that scenario would be likely.  The Martells wanted Viserys raised to the throne, so I could buy that going public with Jon's birth could potentially garner Martell support for an opposition to Robert.  At the same time, it would be a lot to get over, since Rhaegar abandoned Elia for Lyanna, so its not a given.  The Greyjoys - oh man.  That's a post unto itself.  Quellon Greyjoy was not itching for war - he was itching for neutrality.  His sons convinced him to join the fray, and his contributions were minimal.  When he died, first of all the Greyjoys were busy electing Balon as the new Lord, and second of all what Balon was really itching for was his own rebellion.  I see nothing advantageous about joining either side; rather, the most likely scenario is that he would do exactly what he did in the real narrative - twice - declare independence the second he sensed weakness and/or discord on the mainland. The Tyrells - now that's just twisting logic to suit your argument.  Using loyal Tyrell bannermen to forge alliances with other Houses is a positive thing for House Tyrell - a good example is the appointment of Randyll Tarly and Mathis Rowan to the Small Council.  Their elevation is not "scary" to House Tyrell, it's desired, because elevating the status of their bannermen increases the wealth of the entire region, and there's no indication whatsoever that the Florents or any other bannermen are disloyal or dissatisfied with their Reach overlords.

 I do agree, however, that if Jon's identity were public a royalist/Stark alliance could make a lot of sense.  

AS for the marriage alliances, what possible reason would Balon have for marrying Asha off to a mainlander?  That would serve no strategic purpose, and his people would deride him for it.  There also is no "Tyrell girl" to marry Ned off to - we can't just invent characters to fit the argument.  

Lastly, I don't really see any evidence of Robert being hot-tempered to his detriment.  Warmongering, sure.  Short attention span - maybe.  Whoring - definitely.  But he doesn't rush headlong into a trap or do something strategically idiotic, the way Brandon does, which is where the Sonny Corleone analogy comes from.  Also Robert doesn't have a daughter or a wife at this time, so I don't see where your marriage alliance idea comes from.

 

Sorry to be negative - I'm just not seeing it at all.

 

It doesn't need alot of imagination to imagine the scene. Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna. Brandon remains in Winterfell as he should have done and Rickard devises a plan of action to get his daughter back. Being pragmatic, he would probably seek an audience with the king and will go there armed with a grievance letter signed by his Lord Paramount friends (Arryn, Robert and Hoster). Rickard would probably think that by doing so, the King will have an idea of how serious Rhaegar's crime is and how upset Westeros is with the crown prince's action.

Aerys would probably interpret that letter as a clear sign of deviance. Rickard ends up arrested and executed and Robert, Jon, Hoster and Brandon are summoned to answer for their crimes. Jon Arryn try to sort things out before the issue degenerates any further but reluctance in answering to Aerys summoning further frustrates the king who declares Jon as the head of the conspiracy against him. The Loyalists army is assembled and is ordered to march to the Vale, Robert swiftly slips back to the Stormlands and a combined army of Vale-Riverlands-North march South to repel the invasion. 

After the battle of the Trident, talks on who will become the next King start. Someone would probably say that Robert is the rightful king since he's got some Targeryan Aunt or something like that. Brandon being Brandon (not Robert's lapdog) would probably argue with that it would be quite ironic to get rid of the true born Targs to appoint someone whose origins are those of a bastard/lap dog of the Targs. Robert would argue that Brandon would never be accepted as king of Westeros since his religion is wrong while Brandon would counter back by saying that the North would find it hard to bend the knee at someone who couldnt even rally his entire region at his side. Don't forget that its a fight between two Alpha males here not someone who was programmed since birth to obey his Lord Paramount.  Jon Arryn would probably try to calm the argument by telling them that the war isn't over yet and that Aerys is still King. They should focus on that for now

Meanwhile the Lannisters had already sacked the city while the Tyrells had returned home scared shit that Robert would strip them from their Lord Paramount role and give it to the Florents.  Brandons go to the tower of joy where he meets Lyanna. She tells him everything including the 'promise me' thing

How do you think Brandon would react to that? Would he simply return to KL and bend the knee to Robert? I doubt it. I think there's more of a chance of Brandon sending ravens to all the 7 kingdoms, telling them that he's got in his possession someone whose got the birthright to rule. The Tyrells would probably switch to Brandon's side (ie the North has blood ties with the Tullys whom in turn has blood ties with the Arryns + there's no risk that the Florents would take their place) and the rest of the royalists would follow including the Martells who were absolutely horrified of what happened to Elia and would want the Lannisters to be punished.  

 

 

[WSmith84]

5 hours ago, devilish said:

Lyanna shared similar traits to Brandon (she was wild, an extrovert, she took personal responsibility towards family and bannermen and she was fiercely protective to the ones she loved) and spent a long time with Brandon, something that's relatively rare with noble brothers and sisters (Willas-Margaery, Cersei-Tyrion, Joffrey/Tommen-Myrcella, Arriane-Trystane etc). Maybe the pup was closer to Lyanna then the wild wolf. However in this specific argument he's out of the picture

Brandon also shared certain traits with Robert; namely, his womanizing nature. That might have drove a certain wedge between them, given Lyanna's objections to Robert. Regardless, Brandon throwing a tantrum over Lyanna's treatment is not, however, indicative of love or a close relationship.

5 hours ago, devilish said:

I am more concerned about Ned's feelings towards Robert then towards Lyanna. When Lyanna told Ned that his friend is dodge bag who basically can't keep it in his pants, Ned took his bro mate's side by basically telling her to suck it up. Ned kept sucking at Robert in every occasion throughout his entire life. He fought his wars, he lied to his wife and denied his nephew his birthright for fear of hurting his feelings.. He even killed his own daughter's innocent pet breaking her heart because Robert told him to do so. Would Brandon show the same degree of servitude to Robert? I seriously doubt it.

Ned didn't 'take his mate's side and tell her to suck it up.' He didn't say anything, actually. He might have had a different opinion, but that is not taking anyone's side. As for 'denying Jon his birthright and humiliating him', well, let's make a few assumptions: R+L=J, R and L were married and Ned had proof that a significant number of people would believe. First, why would Ned want to start another war? Against his best friend, at the very least. He'd be risking his life, his wife's life, his nephew's life, everything so his baby nephew can sit on a fricking chair. And that's assuming Lyanna didn't make him promise to keep Jon's identity a secret. Brandon might not have kept said promise. And Jon might have had his head dashed against a wall. Yeah, I'd take humiliated over dead.

[estermonty python]

3 hours ago, devilish said:

It doesn't need alot of imagination to imagine the scene. Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna. Brandon remains in Winterfell as he should have done and Rickard devises a plan of action to get his daughter back. Being pragmatic, he would probably seek an audience with the king and will go there armed with a grievance letter signed by his Lord Paramount friends (Arryn, Robert and Hoster). Rickard would probably think that by doing so, the King will have an idea of how serious Rhaegar's crime is and how upset Westeros is with the crown prince's action.

Aerys would probably interpret that letter as a clear sign of deviance. Rickard ends up arrested and executed and Robert, Jon, Hoster and Brandon are summoned to answer for their crimes. Jon Arryn try to sort things out before the issue degenerates any further but reluctance in answering to Aerys summoning further frustrates the king who declares Jon as the head of the conspiracy against him. The Loyalists army is assembled and is ordered to march to the Vale, Robert swiftly slips back to the Stormlands and a combined army of Vale-Riverlands-North march South to repel the invasion. 

After the battle of the Trident, talks on who will become the next King start. Someone would probably say that Robert is the rightful king since he's got some Targeryan Aunt or something like that. Brandon being Brandon (not Robert's lapdog) would probably argue with that it would be quite ironic to get rid of the true born Targs to appoint someone whose origins are those of a bastard/lap dog of the Targs. Robert would argue that Brandon would never be accepted as king of Westeros since his religion is wrong while Brandon would counter back by saying that the North would find it hard to bend the knee at someone who couldnt even rally his entire region at his side. Don't forget that its a fight between two Alpha males here not someone who was programmed since birth to obey his Lord Paramount.  Jon Arryn would probably try to calm the argument by telling them that the war isn't over yet and that Aerys is still King. They should focus on that for now

Meanwhile the Lannisters had already sacked the city while the Tyrells had returned home scared shit that Robert would strip them from their Lord Paramount role and give it to the Florents.  Brandons go to the tower of joy where he meets Lyanna. She tells him everything including the 'promise me' thing

How do you think Brandon would react to that? Would he simply return to KL and bend the knee to Robert? I doubt it. I think there's more of a chance of Brandon sending ravens to all the 7 kingdoms, telling them that he's got in his possession someone whose got the birthright to rule. The Tyrells would probably switch to Brandon's side (ie the North has blood ties with the Tullys whom in turn has blood ties with the Arryns + there's no risk that the Florents would take their place) and the rest of the royalists would follow including the Martells who were absolutely horrified of what happened to Elia and would want the Lannisters to be punished.  

 

 

Thoughtful response - thank you.

 

Alright so I'll go along with the two alpha male theory for now.  I can also sort of buy the Tullys backing the Starks, on the presumption that a boy with Tully blood (Brandon/Cat's son) would be raised as kin with his cousin, Jon Targ, the rightful king, and a girl with Tully blood (Brandon/Cat's daughter) could be betrothed to him (as marrying first cousins appears to be fine in this world).  I could maybe see the Martells taking that side as well, for reasons stated in the prior post (and maybe Ned weds Ashara Dayne to cement that alliance).  I'm less convinced the Vale chooses sides; I don't really see what's in it for them to turn their backs on Robert.  If anything the Vale has something of a history of warring with the North.  As for the Tyrells - ehhhhh.  Robert didn't strip them of their lands when they were the last house to abandon the Targs, I don't see why they'd suddenly be scared of that in this scenario.  Are the Lannisters siding with Robert in this scenario?  If so...why?  

[hitman47]

Robert is dumb idiot and Brandon didnt even exist

[devilish]

15 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes so how would Brandon have lived? That's my point.

Simple. Brandon stays in Winterfell (as he should have done in the first place). Rickard goes to KL to petition with the king for his daughter release (as he would have probably done irrespective on whether Brandon went to KL or not). Aerys would take that as an action of defiance (something a king who suffers from paranoia would probably do), he have him executed and he orders Arryn to do the same with Robert and Ned and to Brandon to come to KL and pledge allegiance to the King (a bit like what another idiot king would do in the future). 

[devilish]

11 hours ago, estermonty python said:

Thoughtful response - thank you.

 

Alright so I'll go along with the two alpha male theory for now.  I can also sort of buy the Tullys backing the Starks, on the presumption that a boy with Tully blood (Brandon/Cat's son) would be raised as kin with his cousin, Jon Targ, the rightful king, and a girl with Tully blood (Brandon/Cat's daughter) could be betrothed to him (as marrying first cousins appears to be fine in this world).  I could maybe see the Martells taking that side as well, for reasons stated in the prior post (and maybe Ned weds Ashara Dayne to cement that alliance).  I'm less convinced the Vale chooses sides; I don't really see what's in it for them to turn their backs on Robert.  If anything the Vale has something of a history of warring with the North.  As for the Tyrells - ehhhhh.  Robert didn't strip them of their lands when they were the last house to abandon the Targs, I don't see why they'd suddenly be scared of that in this scenario.  Are the Lannisters siding with Robert in this scenario?  If so...why?  

I don’t think Jon Arryn would join Brandon’s rebellion head on. I think a lot of negotiation will be made with Ned and Jon working like crazy to sort things between Brandon and Robert.  However both Jon and Ned are beta males and they won’t be able to sort things out between these two stubborn bulls. Robert won’t bend the knee to a Targeryan spawn and a living reminder of how Lyanna cuckolded him with Rhaegar. Brandon won’t bend the knee to Robert as he knows that a united kingdom under Robert is bad news for Jon Targeryan and the North who had sworn by blood to protect him. 
Therefore I can see the dances starting 2 years after Robert’s rebellion has ended. At that time, the Kingdom is in limbo. Jon Arryn is acting like some sort of Lord Protector. Cersei is married to Lord Robert and both Martells and Tyrells hasn’t fully committed to anybody just yet (he’s still terrified that Robert ends up King, the Florents will take over the Reach). (PS by that time little Margaery is born). 

If negotiations break, Jon would probably eye for neutrality. However he’ll face even more pressure than Lysa had, when she took that option. 

a-    He’s married to a Tully and the Vale had already shown that they are quite sensitive in keeping with their side of the bargain.
b-    Jon Arryn started Robert’s rebellion because Aerys ordered him to execute two innocent young men. He’ll find it difficult to convince his banner men that defending an innocent boy from being mauled by Robert’s fury isn’t an honourable cause to raise the banners again. Don’t forget that Robert’s daddy in law allowed little Aegon to be turned into a pulp. They know what the Baratheon-Lannisters can do by that point. 
c-    Elbert Arryn (nephew and heir to Jon) is Brandon’s mate. Surely he’ll push his uncle to take Brandon’s side. 

Ned or Benjen will probably be shipped off to the Martells (either to marry Arianne Martell or Ashara Dayne) while Margaery’s birth is quite significant considering that she’s around Jon Targeryan’s age. The Tyrells would have the choice between siding with Baratheons whose 2nd in line happen to be married with one of their fiercest competitors for the Reach (whom they also nearly starved him to death) or the Northerners who can pave the way for a Tyrell to be sitting on the iron throne as queen. That’s quite a difficult choice to make isn’t it?