Emie

Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

616 posts in this topic

I'm glad that over the years Sansa has become one of the most popular character's of both the books and the show, but I also find it frustrating that some people, especially in the media like to vilify her for no reason other than mistakes that she made years ago. Starting from the time she "lied" to the Lannister's about Joffrey and Arya's fight in the Riverlands which ultimately led to the death of Lady. When that happened, Sansa was still only a child and very naive about the world and what to do in very grown up situations. At that time, she still believed in fairy tales and songs and handsome, charming princes and noble knights who are compassionate and kind-hearted. She honestly thought that Joffrey was nice because of the way he acted around her, but he only SLOWLY started to show his true self after this incident. Then Sansa is thrust into a VERY difficult position someone her age should never have to deal with. She is being demanded to know what happened. Now from what we know of her, she was usually the type of person who never wanted to anger people. She wanted to please everyone and make people feel happy and try to come up with the best solution possible. In her mind, she thought that if she told the truth, Joffrey would be SO angry with her that he would banish her from court, and that his mother might possibly be angry enough to hurt her or even Arya for her daring to make an accusation like that. If she lied, the Lannister's would still be angry, but that anger would be directed at Arya and they would try to hurt her family. So even at that time, Sansa was smart enough to realize that no matter what she said, her family would be screwed either way, so she believed that saying she didn't know what happened and try to stay neutral, hoping that no one would get in trouble. It's VERY unfair for them to put so much on so young of a person's shoulders to deal with that. 

Another issue some have, is her attitude towards Arya, but again that can still be chalked up to Sansa only being a kid. Siblings fight, and are mean to each other, that's a normal part of growing up. Even Arya could be mean to her too. But the way I see it, is that Sansa was mostly just frustrated with Arya because she wanted her to be a "proper lady" too. She cared about her and thought she knew what was best for her and didn't want to see her get hurt with her trying to "act like a boy". But throughout all of the books she always mentions how she would love to see her family again, including Arya. I believe she really wants to make up with her and everyone else who is still alive. She even wishes to see Jon again, even though they were never that close. It's quite sweet. 

Over the next four books we really get to see how lovely Sansa really is. The way she acts around the Hound, with Margaery, Tyrion, trying to help calm the ladies and pray with them during the Battle of the Blackwater, among many other things. She is truly a compassionate, sweet, kind-hearted person who actually cares about others. She desperately wants to believe that there is still some good out there in the world and inside of others. However, she is not as naive as she once was. We see her growing intelligence, and her growing understanding in playing the game. She also gets to be surrounded by interesting characters and get tangled up in interesting plotlines along the way. She is NO longer the "shallow, mean little girl" from the first book. She is now becoming a very lovely, smart and interesting character in the series. And I can only hope we will see great stuff from her in the future books. 

Another thing, is that she did NOT cause her father's death. She told Cersei about what was going on because she was a scared little girl that didn't know any better. And she even begged them not to do anything to him. She thought they would be merciful and not harm him, but instead Joffrey betrayed his promise and had him killed. So the whole thing was Joffrey's fault, not Sansa obviously. She was the one who tried to stop it. Then she saw how much of a monster the Lannister's truly were. (except for Myrcella and Tommen though)  

And after everything that she's been through, it's amazing that she still keeps her strength and kind-hearted nature, when one would think she would become bitter and cold. But she hasn't. She genuinely cares for others and throughout her time in Kings Landing she tried to stop Joffrey's harassment of others.

I honestly think that the whole "Sansa vs. Arya" thing is simply because in this day and age, misogyny is sadly still strong, and people believe that girls and women who are masculine are "cooler" or "better" than girls and women who are feminine or "girly-girl". Some people see Sansa as the ultimate stereotype on the "bitchy popular girls (and boys) from school" who were mean to students and they like to hate on her just because of that. Simply because she likes to do "girly" things. Even though there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. I also find it "interesting" that someone like Jaime is allowed to become likable early on and become a "better person and more developed" even though people for some reason tend to forget that he pushed a child out a window and paralyzed him and he felt no remorse about that, when the only bad thing Sansa did was not tell the whole truth about Joffrey and Arya and told Cersei about her father, and all of a sudden she's the "villain". That is kind of messed up and makes no sense. That's another thing that shows how misogynist society is. It's more acceptable to forgive a male, but a young female who never even tried to kill anyone gets dumped on and some forget how much better she also becomes later on. That's really sad to me. 

But anyway, I'm still happy that she has become a more popular character as time has gone by. Although I have noticed a definite increase in her popularity due to her characterization in GoT season six, especially with how people are saying she finally became a "badass". 
 

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Not that difficult to just not lie when you swear to tell the truth...

Not that difficult to not betray your father and your family for personal gain...

Not at all badass...

the only characters with fewer redeeming characteristics might be her mother, Viserys, and Cersei.

The Sansa v Arya thing is probably because:

Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

Unfortunatly, Ned should have lectured Sansa instead, Arya's spying on people and trying to help while Sansa is busy getting her father killed... 

Edited by LiveFirstDieLater

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The problem is not really what Sansa did, but what lessons we (and her) can draw from it.

And there have been several persons in this forum (who also have a tendancy for intellectual dishonesty - I think you all know who you are) who time and time again over the years have tried to whitewash her. That she did no error (she did, she is very responsible), That Lady didn´t die because of her choices (Symbolic loss, just like Jaime and his hand he used to push Bran), That she didn´t take sides (She did - If I see a thief steal something from you and I say in court "Sorry, don´t remember" am I not supporting the thief? I don´t need to corroborate his story to side with him. Me "not remembering" help him avoid jail), That she is just a scared little girl in a tough situation (Yeah, so are many), that basically everyone from Ned to the Septa is to blame but not poor poor Sansa yada, yada, yada. Well, I don´t care what she meant or what was on her mind or how much a certain part of the fandom empathize with her or in what fucking light they see her experiences. I don´t care how difficult her position was - she did what she did and that choice had consequences - consequences Sansa deserved to suffer.

The reason that Sansa over the years has become one of the more popular character's is because she have done less fuck-ups which, quite reasonably, has given her more support. This doesn´t mean those fuck-ups in the first book didn´t happen nor that they should be "reevaluated" which is always where this discussion tend to go. To defend Sansa as a guardian because you don´t want any criticism towards her at all while at the same time claiming to be an expert on her arc makes you a ignorant PoS in my book.

So, OP, why defend Sansas actions in the first book (which you did) if you want to point out how much change we see now in AFfC. Why is it so hard to admit that Sansa screwed up pretty badly in the first book? Because if you refuse to do that then I think Sansa needs to get vilified, that her faults needs to be pointed out again and again. And personally, if I were Arya I would want an apology for all this at minimum before any kind of "water under the bridge" will happen.

And also, I hate Jaime and his so called "redemption arc".

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Here, hold on... ok, that's  better. No, wait... let me get some popcorn... Ahh, ok. Oh, and a beer... OK, carry on...

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I think I recall a similar thread being posted the other day... @Emie I appreciate the way you go to war for your beloved characters but no matter what haters gon' hate.  There are several redemption arcs within ASOIAF and people can root for Sansa or Jaime or Hodor or whoever they want.  And all characters get shit on for their mistakes. 

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10 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Here, hold on... ok, that's  better. No, wait... let me get some popcorn... Ahh, ok. Oh, and a beer... OK, carry on...

You summed it up nicely... Lol

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37 minutes ago, Protagoras said:

 

And also, I hate Jaime and his so called "redemption arc".

Frankly, Jaime is working on redeeming himself (well, partially. he is still himself, but he now sees actions and consequences and he wants to try to be remembered for something else than Aerys. I mean... It was just one king after all :))

Sansa... Has yet to begin. So far it rather seems she is gone deeper and deeper into the Littlefinger's game, turning from a victim to accomplice. So far the main lesson she learned is that she can trust noone and that if she lies often enough, she will believe it herself.

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37 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Here, hold on... ok, that's  better. No, wait... let me get some popcorn... Ahh, ok. Oh, and a beer... OK, carry on...

Psst?  This is a troll right?  This thread feels like a troll. 

Do you have any raisinettes? 

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Some things made me very disgusted with sansa, and many of them i think can be credited to her mother, her elitism and arrogance, and her extreme sense of entitlement(ok, its a feudal society, the society is build on entitlement, but even so, not at that extent)

we can see a parallel between arya and sansa, Arya valued her friend mycah as a human being, despite his social position, sansa sees those beneath her as inferiors, even after her humiliations by joffrey's hand, she still has the same elitist mentality no appreciation for those who served her.

arya grew to respect sandor and viewed him beyond his burned face, sansa views the hound just as a efficient bodyguard and a mutilated man.

Tyrion was more than good to her, more than can she could ever hoped for in her situation, but most of her thoughts regarding him is about how groteques and ugly he is, how shameful to be his wife in social events, and how other men looked so splendid, even to extent that the way she was looking to joffrey and maergery in the wedding, in tyrion's chapater, implies that she still felt some jealousy of maegery for the prestige she was getting, even knowing the monster joffrey is

and she was more than happy to be sold off to the tyrells and spend her life in highgarden, with music, poetry, and gallant knights. very very small minded.

i don't see she getting any more humbler, nor having empathy for those beneath her,i only see another noble squabbling for revenge and wanting her birthrights restored, in this way, much like dany.

jaime at least acknowledge the piece of sh*t he had been, and this is more than i could say from many characters. 

Edited by BlueNightzx

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1 hour ago, Lurid Jester said:

Psst?  This is a troll right?  This thread feels like a troll. 

Do you have any raisinettes? 

I'm not a fan of raisinettes. Care for a Whopper? I expect we will see a few of those in this thread before it gets exhausted. Or locked. 

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The title provoked interest, the post was just more Sansa defence force.

The reasons why Sansa is disliked are not little throw away pieces, they're not just petty mistakes she's long since outgrown, best forgotten and no longer relevant. They're part of her arc to the core, and relevant to the end, they were written for a purpose and have meaning, taking a dismissive eye to it all is not going to lead you to understand the character very well. The Sansa haters who fixate on these occurrences probably have a better clue about the character than her fans who try to disassociate and underplay them.

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15 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I'm not a fan of raisinettes. Care for a Whopper? I expect we will see a few of those in this thread before it gets exhausted. Or locked. 

Hah, I like what you did there.  Too bad I'm not a fan of those candies.  The thread should still be entertaining. 

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11 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Hah, I like what you did there.  Too bad I'm not a fan of those candies.  The thread should still be entertaining. 

Ooh! Ooh! OOH!! How about... wait for it... some Lemonheads! 

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I mean, I can understand that you are a fan of certain characters and want to defend them, but there is a big difference between pretending that certain actions didn´t happen and owning your characters mistakes and defending them for what they are.

I mean, I am a big Daenerys fan since I like her personality, but you wont hear me say that Daenerys didn´t really mean to kill Mirri, that she was in emotional shock, that it was someone elses fault etc etc. No no. I am well aware that Daenerys murdered Mirri in retaliation for the broken promises and I loved that she did it. Mirri deserved what she got. But that doesn´t make Daenerys innocent nor would I want her to be. Daenerys is very much at fault for her naive mistake of trusting Mirri, and Drogo as well as her unborn son died because of them. I like a character with flaws. It makes them more human. The tragedy in it make me relate to it better. Sugarcoating on the other hand denies me a good character.

Similary with Catelyn, another one of my favorites. She did some bad judgement calls. Certainly you can argue that she was manipulated but that doesn´t make them less real. I like her descent into sadness and madness the longer her arc goes on, the sadness of her losses and the means she takes to counter them, yet it all fails (she is very much the designated loser). But to whitewash from her responsibility of say freeing Jaime undercuts her agency and makes her less interesting as a character. As Theon, the strength IS those hard choices and how she react to them. The reason I like the character is that I like her intentions, but again - the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Catelyn is fascinating and is more in the right than in the wrong, but those mistakes she do is still there. And I want them to be there - she is only human.

If the Sansa-fans would have their way, I think they would make her a Mary sue, and I think thats tragic. Is that really why you support her? Why defend every single thing Sansa have ever done? I mean, some decisions certainly you might believe should be reevaluated, but this is not what I have been reading the past 5 years. It reminds me of some Jon fans - always want their hero to be the bestest person in all instances.

Edit: Not a fan of typecasting, but if I asked someone which their three favorite characters are and they say Jon, Jaime and Sansa, then I think its likely that I wont like that persons mentality and logic.

Edited by Protagoras

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6 hours ago, Emie said:

snip
 

 

So far, though, I don't see Sansa learning from her mistakes. Even after the veil has been ripped from her eyes regarding Joffrey, she still blurts out stupid things that simply make him mad and risk getting her beaten. She doesn't know enough to keep her trap shut about the Willas proposal. She's completely clueless about Littlefinger's intentions until he grabs her and kisses her. She has faulty memories regarding her last night with the Hound. Virtually everything she says to Maddy coming down the mountain betrays the lie about her false identity.

I keep waiting for Sansa to show some growth like virtually all the other Stark children but it's just not happening.

Having said that, though, this should in no way suggest that Sansa is doomed. Even smart players like Tywin bite the dust, so she just might make it to the end after all.

Hopefully, her arc in the last two books will have her getting a clue, putting herself first and thinking a few steps ahead, like show Sansa is doing.

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I will just say this - Sansa's mistakes and tribulations and her tutorship under Littlefinger are there for a reason to teach her life lessons - it will make her a very dangerous player in future games once Long Night is gone and situation in Planetos stabilizes (you need not game players, but inspiring leaders during times of war and crisis, and these roles are for some characters like Jon and Dany; once peace is established people like Sansa and Tyrion are needed to run "the machine"). She is the endgame queen of this series, and I do not mean that she will be a wife to a king, she will not be a second fiddle to anybody. Sansa will be an amalgam of Cersei, Catelyn and Littlefinger.

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Sansa's not one of my favorites, but I still like her character and semi-support the original post here. 

Yes, she made some hefty mistakes and ended up paying dearly for them. I don't think there's any denying that. Everybody in ASOIAF is a flawed human being.  

But Sansa, only eleven when the mishap on the trident happened. After, she was dragged before the King who she feared, the Queen she adored, and her betrothed prince who she thought was "a good person". Just consider; their dads were best of friends, and that rubs off on her perception of Joffrey. Now, I will not try to defend how she behaved in that situation. But I can admit IF I was an eleven year old girl in her shoes, in that world, with her optimistic and fairy tale mindset, I'm not sure I would've done much better. Shit, I don't think eleven year old ME could've done better.

In the end when it comes down to her running to the queen about her father's plans, the only real effect I believe [not going to Cersei] would've had on the situation was that Arya and Sansa would've had a better chance of being on their way to Winterfell by boat. I see it more as Ned got Ned killed with his kindness. He's the one ran off to meet with Cersei in the Godswood and told her word for word that when Robert returned from his hunt, he would explain to him what he had found, and her and her children better be somewhere far, far away when that happens. 

Sidenote: When Ned tells his daughters about leaving soon, Arya's excited and wants to know if they can take Syrio. Sansa is distraught and runs off. Septa Mordane is about to go after her, but Ned stops her. In my mind, after several rereads, that's always the moment she runs off to Cersei (or shortly after at least) - so even there it seems Ned's fault that he didn't sit her down and explain it better, instead of "once we're all back at Winterfell blablabla" and then even stifled the Septa from possibly influencing her. 

When Ned warned Cersei, that's when she gave Lancel the stronger wine for Robert, encouraging him to keep the king good and drunk. I believe Varys even hints that if that plan didn't work (after all, he had been hunting for a buck, not a boar) then there were plenty of other possible ways that it could have, and would have happened. But it was Ned being merciful and warning Cersei that killed Robert and triggered the events of his last will being torn up, Little Finger's doublecross, and finally Joffrey's decision to have off Ned's head. 

Again, I'm not defending Sansa's actions or her reasons necessarily. She was selfish and small minded, but that doesn't change that she is naively innocent to a lot things, really does have a kind heart (admittedly when it suits her, with a huge whiff of proud nobility) and generally just wants to be optimistic about people and situations. 

I am very curious to see where her character goes in the books. 

She saves Dontos. Even ends up trusting in him. 

Feels bad for Selmy when he's stripped of his white cloak.

Actually treats Tyrion pretty decently before her dreams are smashed about Highgarden and is forced to marry him. (It's easy to think of Tyrion as Peter Dinklage, handsome and dashing - but in the books he's often described basically as hideous. Not to mention the enormous scar on his face. How old is Sansa here. Twelve? Thirteen?) She even feels remorse for not bending her knee when he beckoned at their wedding.

She feels sorry for injured Lancel and helps him when Cersei jabs him in his wound.

She comforts all the noble ladies after Cersei has run off.

She calms the hound. No, she's not perfect here. But I do wonder sometimes, would the hound have run off as he did if not for the interactions he had with Sansa? He went to her room, last place before he left after all.  

 She has shown some heart when confronting Joffrey ("Maybe he'll give me your head") knowing full well he won't hesitate to have her beaten. 

Yet she's clever at certain times, always courteous. Constantly remembering the lessons her Septa taught her.  

 

Point is, yeah she's made some mistakes, but she also definitely has some redeeming qualities, especially considering her age, and her arc still has a long way to go. Possibly. Maybe. You never know. 

And also yes, there's a soft spot in my heart for Jaime too. [Spoilers I guess] coming up in the books he could easily be killed and part of me would be ok with that conclusion, or his storyline will change drastically and I am super pumped to find out how.

-edit-

TLDR: Sansa has made some pretty bad mistakes, but she has redeeming qualities and a pretty interesting storyline. 

 

Edited by erra

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8 hours ago, Protagoras said:

 Mirri deserved what she got.

WTF? So you believe that some random woman, minding her own business, living her life within a culture of passive and peaceful people, deserved to have her village attacked, plundered, and burnt to the ground, all her family and friends murdered, herself raped several times, followed by being enslaved, and finally being burned alive, just so Drogo's army could be resupplied, and finance an invasion of a foreign nation? 

And Danny's flaw in this is trusting Murri, whom by the way, was not responsible for Drogo not following her instructions in regards to treating his injury, nor for Jorah entering the tent with Danny during the ritual?

Wow, talk about sugar coating in defense of ones favorite character. :rolleyes:

Edited by Darkstream

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5 hours ago, erra said:

<snip>

When Ned warned Cersei, that's when she gave Lancel the stronger wine for Robert, 

Excellent  post. :thumbsup:

Actually the time line would support that Cersei's plans were already in effect before Ned warned her. Robert was already a dead man before Sansa or Ned's blunders.

Sansa's actions certainly were not the cause of the events that took place.

Edited by Darkstream

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10 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Not that difficult to not betray your father and your family for personal gain...

 

Betrayal? That would require intent. Sansa in no way betrayed her father.

10 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

... Sansa is busy getting her father killed... 

This is a complete misrepresentation of the facts. Sansa had nothing to do with getting her father killed.

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