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Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating


Emie

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@shizett Did you never consider it was actually the only show of protest to the marriage that she could afford? It's all well to say she agreed to marry Tyrion over Lancel, but she had no choice "not to marry a Lannister", period. The only way she could show any sign of being an unwilling bride and protest in silence to the forced marriage, without risking beig harmed, is by refusing to bend. Sansa even feels ashamed when she notes Tyrion's red with shame over it, and does bend eventually. Pah, I know that I would stood on my tippy toes to grow even taller, if I had been forced to marry someone, no matter what they look like or small or tall they are.

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4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You can dream of any partner you want but that's not an excuse for mistreating people you actually meet

Tyrion did not deserve any special considerations about his feelings in the marriage, certainly not by Sansa of all people.

Yes, he says he did not want it either, but why should she believe him, especially when there is a very attractive prize attached to her? (And we the readers, being in his head, know that he was attracted to the prospect of getting Winterfell, way better than Sansa could ever know of Tyrions intentions towards her, since, you know, she can't read his mind like we do.)

Perhaps Tyrion should have considered to resist that marriage somewhat more firmly, if he wanted to avoid the ridicule. I understand why and how Tyrion gets to delude himself wrt women, and I do sympathise (after all, such flaws and contradictions are what make him a great character - and btw, he's quite a lot like Sansa in this regard) but no, in that instance Sansa had all the rights in the world to show everyone what she felt about that marriage.

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4 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I root for Tyrion a lot and it hurt me too but I could see where she was coming from though -- the shock - the lack of preparation to adjust - she took it out on him I guess but I can hear them both here...

It just shows what an amazing writer Martin is. Tyrion's life certainly didn't get any easier with that marriage and the two of them make interesting pairing in a very Tolstoyean way. However, I do believe it will never work. I do hope they both find a proper way to get out of that marriage.

2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

at the end of the day it's hard for me to understand why anyone would like her (I know she was nice to Lancel once) but that's ok, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, my goal isn't just to piss people off

Well, there are some of us who do love her...

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5 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

This is blatantly false.  The notion that "feminine qualities are just a social construct" is a hippy-dippy bologna sandwich lie.  There are traits, inherent to MOST men and traits inherent to MOST women.  This is documentable, and observable.  Men and Women are designed differently on a chemical level in our brains, that's science.  MOST women tend to be more empathetic, and passive.  While MOST Men tend to be more aggressive in nature.   We know this because thousands of years of observation has supported this. 

Yes, there are men who are more sensitive and passive.  And yes, there are women who are aggressive and work out and could beat up the average guy.   But when we are talking about societal norms we talk about the "average" individual of a given social group, not the exception.  Using the exception to make a point is a futile exercise because they are just that - exceptions to the norm.

I do agree with you, however, that the argument "people who dislike Sansa have problems with female characters" is garbage.  I, for example, can not stand Sansa.  Yet I like Dany, and Cersei (as a character not morally), and Cat.  It's not the femininity that people don't like about Sansa, it's her apparent allergy to doing anything positive.  Her whole life has been one big pity party for herself. 

We will have to to agree to disagree about the first part of your post. It is late here and maybe this is not the place for a qualified and deep debate of gender topics since you and I could easily bring up ten fat sources of scientific and political secondary literature to support our respective approach. Sorry but my work day is over now ;)

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2 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Tyrion did not deserve any special considerations about his feelings in the marriage, certainly not by Sansa of all people.

Yes, he says he did not want it either, but why should she believe him, especially when there is a very attractive prize attached to her? (And we the readers, being in his head, know that he was attracted to the prospect of getting Winterfell, way better than Sansa could ever know of Tyrions intentions towards her, since, you know, she can't read his mind like we do.)

Perhaps Tyrion should have considered to resist that marriage somewhat more firmly, if he wanted to avoid the ridicule. I understand why and how Tyrion gets to delude himself wrt women, and I do sympathise (after all, such flaws and contradictions are what make him a great character - and btw, he's quite a lot like Sansa in this regard) but no, in that instance Sansa had all the rights in the world to show everyone what she felt about that marriage.

Not being unnecessarily and pointlessly cruel shouldn't be special consideration! It should be the standard by which all little lords and ladies are judged... And everyone for that matter!

Even Sansa knows almost immediately it was wrong! Why are people defending this?

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4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Not being unnecessarily and pointlessly cruel shouldn't be special consideration! It should be the standard by which all little lords and ladies are judged... And everyone for that matter!

Even Sansa knows almost immediately it was wrong! Why are people defending this?

Because the girl was forced to marry!

I can't even for the life of me grasp that people call her petty for not being an accomodating brider at her forced marriage

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7 minutes ago, Risto said:

It just shows what an amazing writer Martin is. Tyrion's life certainly didn't get any easier with that marriage and the two of them make interesting pairing in a very Tolstoyean way. However, I do believe it will never work. I do hope they both find a proper way to get out of that marriage.

Well, there are some of us who do love her...

Hey that's cool, there's no accounting for taste... And hearts tend to disregard heads... 

I just think that this affair might not end happily for you...

but we won't know till winter or maybe even spring, so for now enjoy the seasons of your love

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12 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I root for Tyrion a lot and it hurt me too but I could see where she was coming from though -- the shock - the lack of preparation to adjust - she took it out on him I guess but I can hear them both here...

Granted, the looks were there too as was the family name - people argue one or the other; I think it was the combination to be honest and lack of preparation for what would follow (not even talking about the bedding but the marriage in itself).

I agree, I feel for her too and completely understand where she comes from. But people try to say what she does is a positive thing and while I agree standing up for herself when she had no other allies is positive, the manner of her doing so, the moment she chose, and her motivations and reasoning behind the act was petty, and not at all a shining moment.

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7 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Not being unnecessarily and pointlessly cruel shouldn't be special consideration! It should be the standard by which all little lords and ladies are judged... And everyone for that matter!

Even Sansa knows almost immediately it was wrong! Why are people defending this?

It's because people can empathize with Sansa due to her age and also the fact that she has a POV. Sansa is a 13 year old girl being forced to marry against her wishes. It does make sense for her to reject Tyrion in whatever way she can. She can't stop the wedding but she can refuse to kneel for him. It's normal and understandable behavior. 

The problem is then some readers try to argue that Sansa is not normal and that she has some sort of empathy superpower that will make her a great player of the game. That's clearly not true. 

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8 minutes ago, shizett said:

I agree, I feel for her too and completely understand where she comes from. But people try to say what she does is a positive thing and while I agree standing up for herself when she had no other allies is positive, the manner of her doing so, the moment she chose, and her motivations and reasoning behind the act was petty, and not at all a shining moment.

When was she to do her silent protest then? Where nobody could see? :lmao:

Or did you rather think she should have said "Mayhaps".

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4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Even Sansa knows almost immediately it was wrong! Why are people defending this?

Sansa stepping out of her own POV and understanding how Tyrion is feeling, in those circumstances, just proves what a great person she is. Honestly, how many of us would do that?

1 minute ago, shizett said:

I agree, I feel for her too and completely understand where she comes from. But people try to say what she does is a positive thing and while I agree standing up for herself when she had no other allies is positive, the manner of her doing so, the moment she chose, and her motivations and reasoning behind the act was petty, and not at all a shining moment.

It wasn't petty, it was her small sign of rebellion. That small little piece of spirit she was allowed to show. Yes, it backfired when she realizes that he is being mocked and she composes herself and then bows down to kiss him. It was a shining moment as we don't see many characters in ASOIAF who steps out of their problems and see the world through different eyes.

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8 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Not being unnecessarily and pointlessly cruel shouldn't be special consideration! It should be the standard by which all little lords and ladies are judged... And everyone for that matter!

Even Sansa knows almost immediately it was wrong! Why are people defending this?

I am defending it because it was both necessary and very well pointed in showing everyone that this marriage was forced on her. It was the only means she had to express this. Tyrion is not the #1 enemy, granted, but he goes along. Well, every decision has consequences, hurt feelings were the price Tyrion had to pay for that.

People accuse Sansa for doing nothing, and in this instance where she actually does something, to the extent of her capacity, people she gets criticized instead of acknowledged... I don't know why Sansa has to be either "she can do no wrong" or "she can do no right".

 

ETA - Sansa knows that there's something wrong when she observes Joffrey and Cersei -the ones that are primarily responsible for her misery- enjoy Tyrion's humiliation instead of being offended by her stance. That's when she starts to sense that perhaps she and Tyrion might be more in the same side wrt Cersei and Joffrey. Still, that's not enough reason to trust him, actually trusting him given what she knows (or rather, does not know - she can't read his POV) would be stupid. Personally I regard her distrust for him as an improvement.

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1 minute ago, Risto said:

Sansa stepping out of her own POV and understanding how Tyrion is feeling, in those circumstances, just proves what a great person she is. Honestly, how many of us would do that?

I know I would not. He could keep tugging my skirt or ask for a chair.

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1 minute ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I am defending it because it was both necessary and very well pointed in showing everyone that this marriage was forced on her. It was the only means she had to express this. Tyrion is not the #1 enemy, granted, but he goes along. Well, every decision has consequences, hurt feelings were the price Tyrion had to pay for that.

People accuse Sansa for doing nothing, and in this instance where she actually does something, to the extent of her capacity, people she gets criticized instead of acknowledged... I don't know why Sansa has to be either "she can do no wrong" or "she can do no right".

Because she can really do no wrong :D

Jokes aside, as I said, I think that it was a nice moment. Especially having the "not a kneeler" thing roaming around wildlings. And it seems that kneeling for Starks is kind of a thing. Even Tyrion associates that act to her Stark roots. 

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I fail to see that Sansa's initial refusal to kneel is her humiliating Tyrion.

 

On the contrary, it was HE who humiliated HER.

 

HE's the one who knew they were to be married. HE could have taken a hand in the wedding preparations. SHE was issued a royal command less than an hour before the ceremony. HE could have arranged for a stepstool, or before they went in when they spoke, he could have addressed the issue then.

 

Furthermore, him tugging at her skirts was ill-mannered, like a spoiled child begging for sweets. He could have spared both their dignities simply by politely asking: "Lady, will you kneel?" Knowing Sansa, she'd have complied to a courteous request. Instead, he makes fools of both of them through his petulance.

 

Afterwards, she tries to make nice at the feast, but he won't dance, gets stinking drunk, and makes a spectacle of himself.

 

Yes, let's accuse the barely pubescent girl of being immature, instead of the grown man. *headdesk*

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5 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I am defending it because it was both necessary and very well pointed in showing everyone that this marriage was forced on her. It was the only means she had to express this. Tyrion is not the #1 enemy, granted, but he goes along. Well, every decision has consequences, hurt feelings were the price Tyrion had to pay for that.

People accuse Sansa for doing nothing, and in this instance where she actually does something, to the extent of her capacity, people she gets criticized instead of acknowledged... I don't know why Sansa has to be either "she can do no wrong" or "she can do no right".

I don't like Sansa overly much but in this instance from her point of view fuck Tyrion and his whole extended family.  They are enemies if they happen to have enemies in common among his family fine.  Doesn't change the fact that she is a member of House Stark it's basically her Job to kill as many of these fuckers at the first opportunity she gets. 

I like Tyrion but he's not her ally or her super friend because he's polite to her and not a scumbag.  Sansa not taking advantage of him was her failure though.

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I get all these together.

14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

@shizett Did you never consider it was actually the only show of protest to the marriage that she could afford? It's all well to say she agreed to marry Tyrion over Lancel, but she had no choice "not to marry a Lannister", period. The only way she could show any sign of being an unwilling bride and protest in silence to the forced marriage, without risking beig harmed, is by refusing to bend. Sansa even feels ashamed when she notes Tyrion's red with shame over it, and does bend eventually. Pah, I know that I would stood on my tippy toes to grow even taller, if I had been forced to marry someone, no matter what they look like or small or tall they are.

I see your point, but she just talked to Tyrion, she could have told him that "while you are kind and nice, I really appreciated if you had resisted your family on this. I do NOT want to get married here, help!", so that when later she did her act of defiance, he would know why.

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

When was she to do her silent protest then? Where nobody could see? :lmao:

Or did you rather think she should have sayd "Mayhaps".

It is not the act, but the act after their private talk while she is all "you are awesome, you are great, I know!" and then putting him down because he is a dwarf.

4 minutes ago, Risto said:

It wasn't petty, it was her small sign of rebellion. That small little piece of spirit she was allowed to show. Yes, it backfired when she realizes that he is being mocked and she composes herself and then bows down to kiss him. It was a shining moment as we don't see many characters in ASOIAF who steps out of their problems and see the world through different eyes.

I hope my answers to sweetsunray makes it clear, that yes, I get that she doesn't have a lot of options, it is the discrepancy between the talk before the ceremony and her thoughts while she is doing it that bothers me.

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8 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I am defending it because it was both necessary and very well pointed in showing everyone that this marriage was forced on her.

She was crying and EVERYONE else knew it was forced upon her. Half of them were planning to force another marriage upon her.

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9 minutes ago, Risto said:

It was a shining moment as we don't see many characters in ASOIAF who steps out of their problems and see the world through different eyes.

I forgot to answer this part, yes, it was. I had not looked at it like this (mostly because she was guilty of something in my mind), but now that you have pointed out, she did put herself in his shoes.

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1 minute ago, shizett said:

It is not the act, but the act after their private talk while she is all "you are awesome, you are great, I know!" and then putting him down because he is a dwarf.

She didn't tell him "you are awesome". She practically said to him that he is the least terrible of what Lannisters planned for her. She said to him that she remembered his kindness. But, we should not take that in any way as a sort of her making peace with what was to happen.

1 minute ago, shizett said:

She was crying and EVERYONE else knew it was forced upon her. Half of them were planning to force another marriage upon her.

As I said, I think that Martin was referencing wilding culture so close to Starks here. That kneeling is one of the most-Stark moments Sansa had in her arc. Even Tyrion connects that act to her Stark roots.

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