Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[Morgana Lannister]

2 minutes ago, shizett said:

I get all these together.

I see your point, but she just talked to Tyrion, she could have told him that "while you are kind and nice, I really appreciated if you had resisted your family on this. I do NOT want to get married here, help!", so that when later she did her act of defiance, he would know why.

It is not the act, but the act after their private talk while she is all "you are awesome, you are great, I know!" and then putting him down because he is a dwarf.

I hope my answers to sweetsunray makes it clear, that yes, I get that she doesn't have a lot of options, it is the discrepancy between the talk before the ceremony and her thoughts while she is doing it that bothers me.

When I read this chapter, and I admit I root for Tyrion and identify a lot with him emotionally, although hey no; never killed lover or father and I am not currently a psychological wreck lol, but yes.  Had it been me, with my current personality, I would have reached out to him (after how he antagonised the King for me) but as I said before (love them both!) I think she was going through PTSD as we would now call it and was cold to him... I also think George has something up his sleeve here, and big, but could be wrong...

[sweetsunray]

13 minutes ago, shizett said:

It is not the act, but the act after their private talk while she is all "you are awesome, you are great, I know!" and then putting him down because he is a dwarf.

She doesn't go "you're awesome, you're great!" during their private talk. First of all, Tyrion overhears and finishes her sentence where she begs Joff not to make her marry Tyrion. So, that's that - he knows she doesn't want to. He also knows that Sansa dares not speak her mind to Lannisters since the moment he arrived at KL in aCoK. What she says ("defeated") is, "You are kind, my lord. I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands." Then he says he admits he knows he is not the sort of husband she dreams of but that he isn't Joff, to which she replies, "No, you were kind to me. I remember."

Sansa NEVER EVER spoke her mind to any Lannister, including Tyrion. She's been threatened to be dragged by sword point kicking and screaming to the altar, and Joff is enoying the prospect. And she is just "courteous". There is no "you're awesome. Let's do this! Can't wait!"

[Morgana Lannister]

31 minutes ago, Risto said:

It just shows what an amazing writer Martin is. Tyrion's life certainly didn't get any easier with that marriage and the two of them make interesting pairing in a very Tolstoyean way. However, I do believe it will never work. I do hope they both find a proper way to get out of that marriage.

Well, there are some of us who do love her...

I do love her for all her flaws, and him too (with all his flaws but hoping he will be out of the frame of mind he is in in the last book; mind you without that he would be seen as remorseless lol) - other people broke them both, differently, in different incidents... fair enough you wish them both happiness but not together; I ship them but hey free world lol, we shall see but whatever happens happy with what you wish for them (together or separately lol)   they are both broken people who are, like I guess just about anyone in this series, a product of something bigger than them - Ty took a part in power, granted, Sansa might do in the future, but overall neither of these two are evil - I do wish them both well

[shizett]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Sansa NEVER EVER spoke her mind to any Lannister, including Tyrion. She's been threatened to be dragged by sword point kicking and screaming to the altar, and Joff is enoying the prospect. And she is just "courteous". There is no "you're awesome. Let's do this! Can't wait!"

OK, I admit, my wording was really bad.

I meant to say that in before the wedding talk she make it sound like she has no problem with the "person" but the family, but in the ceremony she attacks the person not the family, and she specifically does so because he is short and weak. She hits someone who is already hurt.

The whole affair (their talk, her behaviour, her thought) bothers me, otherwise I understand why she did it and how that was an improvement for Sansa.

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I do love her for all her flaws, and him too (with all his flaws but hoping he will be out of the frame of mind he is in in the last book; mind you without that he would be seen as remorseless lol) - other people broke them both, differently, in different incidents... fair enough you wish them both happiness but not together; I ship them but hey free world lol, we shall see but whatever happens happy with what you wish for them (together or separately lol)   they are both broken people who are, like I guess just about anyone in this series, a product of something bigger than them - Ty took a part in power, granted, Sansa might do in the future, but overall neither of these two are evil - I do wish them both well

Yeah... At the end of the day, we can't argue that either of them is evil. They just had tough time and had made some mistakes... Well, they have demons of their own to face, that is for sure.

That said, the reason why I am not sure that we will see Sansa as one half of some power couple is because I feel that Martin is shaping her to become sort of Elizabeth I figure - The Virgin Queen. Not necessarily the Queen or the virgin for that matter, but someone who will occupy the position of power (whatever that position may be) on her own. 

 

[Morgana Lannister]

8 minutes ago, shizett said:

OK, I admit, my wording was really bad.

I meant to say that in before the wedding talk she make it sound like she has no problem with the "person" but the family, but in the ceremony she attacks the person not the family, and she specifically does so because he is short and weak. She hits someone who is already hurt.

The whole affair (their talk, her behaviour, her thought) bothers me, otherwise I understand why she did it and how that was an improvement for Sansa.

Funnily enough, this has given me a further perspective, perhaps...  I was going on how very broken they get at different points; everyone deals with it differently; she became a passive aggressive towards possibly her best ally at that point; when it happened to him, he  literally went to hell! swearing murder, rape and revenge I very much doubt will commit or even totally means.  With Jaime for instance, but this ain't about Ty, he kills him with one head in a dream and weeps with the other, or something to that effect... I cannot recall.  I think what George is showing us here is two people that could be okay human beings but cannot be at their particular points in time because of how much "others" have broken them

[ShadowCat Rivers]

15 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

Sansa not taking advantage of him was her failure though.

Yea, I would agree with that if I read her as a "player". I don't think she's quite there yet, and she certainly was not at the time this marriage took place. She did quite well though in hiding her thoughts from him and coming up with lies that would seem convincing to him, but that's all she was able to do at the time. 

 

11 minutes ago, shizett said:

She was crying and EVERYONE else knew it was forced upon her. Half of them were planning to force another marriage upon her.

I suppose it's on my wording, but what I wanted to say was not to merely inform of the fact. It's about passive resistance, I thought it was obvious.

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, shizett said:

OK, I admit, my wording was really bad.

I meant to say that in before the wedding talk she make it sound like she has no problem with the "person" but the family, but in the ceremony she attacks the person not the family, and she specifically does so because he is short and weak. She hits someone who is already hurt.

The whole affair (their talk, her behaviour, her thought) bothers me, otherwise I understand why she did it and how that was an improvement for Sansa.

This is the conversation

"My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding. I am sorry for that. And for making this so sudden, and so secret. My lord father felt it necessary, for reasons of state. Else I would have come to you sooner, as I wished." He waddled closer. "You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so, and I will end this farce."

I don't want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon. But then she remembered what Dontos had told her in the godswood. Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it's not me they want, only my claim. "You are kind, my lord," she said, defeated. "I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands."

He studied her with his mismatched eyes. "I know I am not the sort of husband young girls dream of, Sansa," he said softly, "but neither am I Joffrey."

"No," she said. "You were kind to me. I remember."

Tyrion offered her a thick, blunt-fingered hand. "Come, then. Let us do our duty."

 

Tyrion reveals he knew of this all along. Tyrion reveals he could have refused, but didn't. Then 5 mins before the ceremony he offers her Lancel. What a complete farce! "Hey I knew for weeks I was to marry you, and I accepted, because otherwise you'd have to marry my cousin. But if you want to, I'll call the whole deal off! Though I know you will not speak your true mind... you never did so before. Not even after Joff had you stripped and beaten before the court, which I interrupted, and then offered you to end the betrothal, and to which you pledged you loved the king." But she's the one who isn't honest and adult enough to discuss how they're going to do this forced marriage? She's merely doing what she has been doing since she was a hostage - not tell a Lannister what she wants. Tyrion knew very well that she was saying the right words and thinking something else, for fear. He always knew. But he was fine with that. Get outta here! She does not attack the person, she protests against being wed the only way she can.

[David Selig]

7 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

I tend to think that Sansa understands more about Tyrion than he ever does about her, she just doesn't trust him (for obvious reasons). Other than as a cynical means of survival, I'm not really getting why she should give him a chance in the circumstances of a forced marriage to someone who is ultimately her enemy (even if he is kinder than the rest of his family). I think Sansa is a lot nicer to Tyrion than I would be in the circumstances.

Very much so. Tyrion was very lucky Sansa is such a nice person because an awful lot of people in her position would have killed Tyrion in his sleep. Or at the very least treated him a lot more deserved contempt and hated him.

How the hell so many readers have the gall to criticize Sansa for not being nicer to her enemy who married her against her when she was 12 is beyond me. "Oh, but she humiliated him in public, poor Tyrion, what a bitch." Are you kidding me? The guy was her enemy. And objectively a terrible person.

 

 

[Morgana Lannister]

6 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Very much so. Tyrion was very lucky Sansa is such a nice person because an awful lot of people in her position would have killed Tyrion in his sleep. Or at the very least treated him a lot more deserved contempt and hated him.

How the hell so many readers have the gall to criticize Sansa for not being nicer to her enemy who married her against her when she was 12 is beyond me. "Oh, but she humiliated him in public, poor Tyrion, what a bitch." Are you kidding me? The guy was her enemy. And objectively a terrible person.

 

 

I can obviously see that you hate my fav character but in answer to the 12 year old can only refer you to Westeros and that what is customary to us now wasn't in that reality.  Walder Frey, say, maybe not a hero married similar aged gals and no one butt an eyelet; now if what is moral today is a problem, fantasy can be a problem...

We cannot help but refer to our own time frame but say if age of consent so objectionable, say, why ot decapitating deserters... that reality isn't ours and hence I do not believe should be judged in the same way

 

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I can obviously see that you hate my fav character but in answer to the 12 year old can only refer you to Westeros and that what is customary to us now wasn't in that reality.  Walder Frey, say, maybe not a hero married similar aged gals and no one butt an eyelet; now if what is moral today is a problem, fantasy can be a problem...

And yet forced marriages are illegal in Westeros. Her not bending may actually become a point in part for an annulment. The whole court witnessed her unwillingness.

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And yet forced marriages are illegal in Westeros. Her not bending may actually become a point in part for an annulment. The whole court witnessed her unwillingness.

Not the whole court. Only the close Lannister circle. They didn't want to risk the scandal.

[shizett]

10 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I suppose it's on my wording, but what I wanted to say was not to merely inform of the fact. It's about passive resistance, I thought it was obvious.

It was obvious, but at the time I answered you I was making the point that her openly crying was a act of passive resistance (I have changed my mind though).

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Tyrion reveals he knew of this all along. Tyrion reveals he could have refused, but didn't. Then 5 mins before the ceremony he offers her Lancel. What a complete farce! "Hey I knew for weeks I was to marry you, and I accepted, because otherwise you'd have to marry my cousin. But if you want to, I'll call the whole deal off! Though I know you will not speak your true mind... you never did so before." But she's the one who isn't honest and adult enough to discuss how they're going to do this forced marriage? Get outta here! She does not attack the person, she protests against being wed the only way she can.

I did get out of there (at least two posts ago)

I really do see why she did it and how that makes sense in that moment; and without any reservations (now after the discussion and with many good points many people made), but I still see it as a petty act as it hurts the wrong person for the wrong reason. She does recover from it and she does learn to confront others better (like LF in her snow castle), which is maturing. I was just really hung up on the act and I was wrong.

I am conceded to the points that were made to me.

[Morgana Lannister]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And yet forced marriages are illegal in Westeros. Her not bending may actually become a point in part for an annulment. The whole court witnessed her unwillingness.

and I personally believe, could be wrong, that Tyrion did it on purpose, so that she had that route (like our modern life divorce if she so wished later on) and also hey she thought her too young but I think there is more to come with these two lol we shall see... I appreciate all opinions but not, say, bringing up our current age of consent because that was not part of medieval life - other stuff, yeah, bring it on, even if we disagree!  More fun lol

[David Selig]

4 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I can obviously see that you hate my fav character but in answer to the 12 year old can only refer you to Westeros and that what is customary to us now wasn't in that reality.  Walder Frey, say, maybe not a hero married similar aged gals and no one butt an eyelet; now if what is moral today is a problem, fantasy can be a problem...

We cannot help but refer to our own time frame but say if age of consent so objectionable, say, why ot decapitating deserters... that reality isn't ours and hence I do not believe should be judged in the same way

 

Even in Westeros marrying 12 years old with the intention of consummating the marriage immediately (or soon after) is very much frowned upon. Even Viserys thought there was something wrong with Drogo because Drogo wanted a 13 year old bride.

And it was a forced marriage as sweetsunray said.

 

 

 

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Risto said:

Not the whole court. Only the close Lannister circle. They didn't want to risk the scandal.

My bad, not the Tyrells, only a select circle.

[shizett]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And yet forced marriages are illegal in Westeros. Her not bending may actually become a point in part for an annulment. The whole court witnessed her unwillingness.

Are you basing this on what Sansa thinks to herself in one of her chapters (about the high septon)?

Because I think after she says that she would take Tyrion, she is lawfully wedded. They cannot make her say it, but if she does, then it stands (that's what I got from that passage).

[Morgana Lannister]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And yet forced marriages are illegal in Westeros. Her not bending may actually become a point in part for an annulment. The whole court witnessed her unwillingness.

and hence it has the potential to be annulled easily; and I think he would agree to it anyway but I think the irony will be in that they might want to stay together (but that could just be the way I predict it lol)

 

1 minute ago, David Selig said:

Even in Westeros marrying 12 years old with the intention of consummating the marriage immediately (or soon after) is very much frowned upon. Even Viserys thought there was something wrong with Drogo because Drogo wanted a 13 year old bride.

And it was a forced marriage as sweetsunray said.

 

 

 

it certainly was; okay would have to ask George myself to see what age of consent was (unsure) but in European middle ages it was 14; now his story, his call,  so I don't know but hey Ty fancied her but didn't do it.  I am female but when a male or female for that matter gets castigated for what they fancy instead of what they do (happen to be a lawyer in real) I get a little feisty lol

[ShadowCat Rivers]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

And yet forced marriages are illegal in Westeros.

Not really. Great houses and kingships are founded over forced marriages (unless we buy the a posteriori romanticized version, what is Argella Durrandon's marriage if not forced? and the Marsh King's daughter that a Stark wedded after her people were defeated would not likely be thrilled about her marriage, I'd think...)

It seems that the trick is to make a case that the forcing part lawfully owns (brrrr....) the rights of the female body in question. By "law", Joffrey in his capacity as the King had the authority to dispose Sansa as he thought fit. But, law does not always dictate the right thing and in Westeros in seldom does...

[Morgana Lannister]

1 minute ago, shizett said:

Are you basing this on what Sansa thinks to herself in one of her chapters (about the high septon)?

Because I think after she says that she would take Tyrion, she is lawfully wedded. They cannot make her say it, but if she does, then it stands (that's what I got from that passage).

I think you might well be right but I am under the impression than a non-consumated marriage is easier to set aside...