Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[Woman of War]

23 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I do love her for all her flaws, and him too (with all his flaws but hoping he will be out of the frame of mind he is in in the last book; mind you without that he would be seen as remorseless lol) - other people broke them both, differently, in different incidents... fair enough you wish them both happiness but not together; I ship them but hey free world lol, we shall see but whatever happens happy with what you wish for them (together or separately lol)   they are both broken people who are, like I guess just about anyone in this series, a product of something bigger than them - Ty took a part in power, granted, Sansa might do in the future, but overall neither of these two are evil - I do wish them both well

I love this post 

[teej6]

8 minutes ago, Risto said:

So, I suppose Bran going against his mother's wishes, which ultimately ended him being crippled is also the betrayal of his family, in this case his mother? It wasn't a betrayal, as Sansa herself not only could have comprehend the severity of her actions but she couldn't predict what would have happened.

We should also be reminded that regarding Joffrey, Ned was OK until he suddenly wasn't. One of Ned's biggest mistakes was not paying more attention to his children. He thought he had that covered with Septa Mordane (and we have seen what kind of influence she was). The thing is that Ned missed all the warning signs, especially what happened at Trident and didn't deal with those feelings properly. One can say a lot about Queen of Thorns, but she did prepare Margaery and she was more than ready to make sure the marriage to the Crown is indeed successful one. Ned wasn't just ignorant, he was dangerously negligent. And when he turned tables on his daughter, so she did. Unfortunately for both, her actions (just to be clear, I am not absolving him of the guilt here) put her in precarious position and she has been paying for that indiscretion ever since. But, it wasn't a betrayal. It was indiscretion and disobedience that in the normal world would have benign consequences. But, ASOIAF isn't a normal setting, though.

The Bran incident is not the same as the Sansa incident. Bran is disobeying his mother. Sansa, on the other hand, is disobeying her father and in doing so revealing her father's plans and secrets to a woman she knows her father dislikes and distrusts (the Lady incident should have shown her that and if not Sansa is a total idiot). 

You keep saying that Ned was ok with Joffrey. He was not. He had to be convinced about the Sansa/Joffrey marriage by Cat and that's before he even knew about what a piece of shit Joffrey was. After the betrothal, Ned needed a damn good reason to break it off or else he would be insulting the king and crown. You bring up the Queen of Thorns and her manipulating the situation. You are talking about a master player, which Ned was not. Even the Olenna did not dare break of the engagement after knowing what a shit Joffrey was instead she colluded with LF to have him killed. Ned's honor did not permit him to stoop to murder of a child or scheming. 

[Morgana Lannister]

5 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

I love this post 

 we need to speak again, been a little while...

[teej6]

26 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I did not compare Sansa and Arya. I did not say Sansa was rebellious. I said

And I gave a description of how Martin wrote the chapter.

No you didn't compare Sansa and Arya, I did to make a point. I was disagreeing with your statement that Sansa was acting out as a rebellious teen. I don't think Sansa was a rebellious teen instead in that one incident she acted impulsively out of her own selfish desires.

[Darkstream]

15 minutes ago, teej6 said:

To everyone that argue that Sansa telling Cersei of Ned's plans didn't have consequences, Cersei's statement to Tyrion in ACOK "even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father' plans ..." indicates otherwise. This coming from a woman who is so confident in her acumen and skills. If Sansa hadn't gone to Cersei, Sansa and Arya may have escaped KL and Cersei would not have had any leverage to pressure Ned to confess. If Ned didn't confess, there would be no reason for Cersei to parade Ned to the populace of KL and he would probably still be alive in the black cells. Sansa and Arya would be back at Winterfell and Cat would not have released Jamie. Perhaps, you could even have a situation where Ned would have been exchanged for Jamie. We don't know what would have happened. But there is a big WHAT IF in a scenario where Sansa had obeyed her father and got on a ship with Arya to Winterfell. 

Ned would have still been executed, only without confessing first, and Joffrey would have had  the support of Cercei and his council.

[Clegane'sPup]

4 minutes ago, teej6 said:

No you didn't compare Sansa and Arya, I did to make a point. I was disagreeing with your statement that Sansa was acting out as a rebellious teen. I don't think Sansa was a rebellious teen instead in that one incident she acted impulsively out of her own selfish desires.

I did not say Sansa was acting as a rebellious teen.

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

The Bran incident is not the same as the Sansa incident. Bran is disobeying his mother. Sansa, on the other hand, is disobeying her father and in doing so revealing her father's plans and secrets to a woman she knows her father dislikes and distrusts (the Lady incident should have shown her that and if not Sansa is a total idiot). 

You keep saying that Ned was ok with Joffrey. He was not. He had to be convinced about the Sansa/Joffrey marriage by Cat and that's before he even knew about what a piece of shit Joffrey was. After the betrothal, Ned needed a damn good reason to break it off or else he would be insulting the king and crown. You bring up the Queen of Thorns and her manipulating the situation. You are talking about a master player, which Ned was not. Even the Olenna did not dare break of the engagement after knowing what a shit Joffrey was instead she colluded with LF to have him killed. Ned's honor did not permit him to stoop to murder of a child or scheming. 

Of course Bran and Sansa incidents are not the same. It is just that we can not put such heavy words like "betrayal" to the acts of disobedience, regardless what the consequences were. If my parents would think I betrayed them every single time I was indiscreet as a child, I would be left somewhere down the road. 

I was speaking from Sansa's perspective. She wasn't there to see her father's objection to the marriage when he spoke to Cat. Ned didn't need some outrageous reason for "sudden visit" to Winterfell. He didn't even have to do that, he could have talked more seriously with her. As for Olenna, she WANTED Margaery to be a queen. But, she understood that marriage would have to work. So, she found a nice way out. Ned's honor certainly didn't permit him to do that, but there were other ways he could have separated Sansa from her dreams and make sure his daughter is truly ready for what's coming.

Again, this doesn't excuse her indiscretion, I just talk about her perspective and mindset.

[Morgana Lannister]

26 minutes ago, Risto said:

So, I suppose Bran going against his mother's wishes, which ultimately ended him being crippled is also the betrayal of his family, in this case his mother? It wasn't a betrayal, as Sansa herself not only could have comprehend the severity of her actions but she couldn't predict what would have happened.

We should also be reminded that regarding Joffrey, Ned was OK until he suddenly wasn't. One of Ned's biggest mistakes was not paying more attention to his children. He thought he had that covered with Septa Mordane (and we have seen what kind of influence she was). The thing is that Ned missed all the warning signs, especially what happened at Trident and didn't deal with those feelings properly. One can say a lot about Queen of Thorns, but she did prepare Margaery and she was more than ready to make sure the marriage to the Crown is indeed successful one. Ned wasn't just ignorant, he was dangerously negligent. And when he turned tables on his daughter, so she did. Unfortunately for both, her actions (just to be clear, I am not absolving him of the guilt here) put her in precarious position and she has been paying for that indiscretion ever since. But, it wasn't a betrayal. It was indiscretion and disobedience that in the normal world would have benign consequences. But, ASOIAF isn't a normal setting, though.

couldn't agree more 

[teej6]

12 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I do not believe anyone is denying the consequences only what she wanted or foresaw; to me she wanted the Queen to "bring her dad to his senses" and let her remain or all of them remain because she had big plans for being Joffrey's Queen, in her naivety and at that point, granted we got the Lady story lol but other than that she still genuinly believed Joffrey could be kind, selfishly, mayhaps but she did not foresee what was to come - what you quote is from Cersei's point of view - to me we are not talking about what caused what but about was she guilty of causing that? (Sansa)

I've seen many Sansa fans state that whether she went to Cersei or not the outcome would have been the same. And Cerise's POV is valid to state that things would have been different had Sansa not revealed Ned's plans to Cersie.

As to Sansa not being able to foresee the consequences of her actions, I never stated otherwise. What I'm arguing is that her motives were selfish whether she wanted the King to bring her father to his senses or not. She wanted to stay in KL and marry Joffrey and be queen. Those are selfish reasons. Many here argue that Sansa was not betraying her father. I disagree. Sansa was not just being a disobedient child but she was betraying her father's plans and secrets to an outsider who she knew didn't have the best of relations with her father. For crying out loud, Jamie had just killed Jory and attacked her father and she goes to the man's sister with her father's plans. Either Sansa is the biggest idiot or she did what she did knowing full well she was betraying her father. 

[Morgana Lannister]

20 minutes ago, teej6 said:

You are putting words in my mouth here. I never said Sansa did not care about what happened to her father, I said Sansa knew she was betraying her father trust when she went to Cersei. I also acknowledged that she was naive and foolish and didn't imagine that her act would have the consequences it did. As for being a rebellious teenager, we are shown extensively by GRRM that Sansa was quite the opposite. 

Fair enough and my apologies if I missread you but perhaps I didn't express myself well, what I wanted to say is that she just tried hard to stay in KL and foolishly tried something she thought would work without dire consequences; she was wrong of course lol; now as for rebelious -v- compliant I maintain my stance that it ain't one way or the other completely... but agreeing to disagree is good too and certainly I do not intend to antagonise anyone here; argue a point, sure but not more... 

The fact that you have replied to me nicely also means, to me, that you are happy with that too (agree/disagree whatever but have fun)

[Darkstream]

47 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I thought the debate was whether Sansa deserved or is to be blamed for the consequences of her actions and not whether she betrayed Ned. If Sansa going and telling Cersei Ned's plans to leave the city is not a betrayal of her father, I don't know what is. 

And the argument being put forth by many is, that she did deserve what she got because she betrayed her family, which I would argue is an ignorant interpretation of her actions.

I would agree with the bolded.

[David Selig]

9 minutes ago, teej6 said:

The Bran incident is not the same as the Sansa incident. Bran is disobeying his mother. Sansa, on the other hand, is disobeying her father and in doing so revealing her father's plans and secrets to a woman she knows her father dislikes and distrusts (the Lady incident should have shown her that and if not Sansa is a total idiot).

What "plans and secrets" of Ned did Sansa reveal? It is not like she knew anything about his plans and secrets except that her father was sending her to WF on that day.

[Springwatch]

22 minutes ago, teej6 said:

To everyone that argue that Sansa telling Cersei of Ned's plans didn't have consequences, Cersei's statement to Tyrion in ACOK "even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father' plans ..." indicates otherwise. This coming from a woman who is so confident in her acumen and skills. 

Cersei is not a truthful person. She would be unwilling to reveal her conversation with Ned, because Tyrion mocks her relationship with Jaime.

Besides, Cersei had been plotting the death of Robert for a while (think the melee). If the plotting wasn't going full speed before Ned threatened her, it would after. Securing the hostages is an absolutely basic task here. She probably wouldn't even need intelligence from Varys. Guards at all the gates, and agents monitoring shipping. Ned probably openly booked passage. Easy.

22 minutes ago, teej6 said:

 

If Sansa hadn't gone to Cersei, Sansa and Arya may have escaped KL and Cersei would not have had any leverage to pressure Ned to confess. If Ned didn't confess, there would be no reason for Cersei to parade Ned to the populace of KL and he would probably still be alive in the black cells. Sansa and Arya would be back at Winterfell and Cat would not have released Jamie. Perhaps, you could even have a situation where Ned would have been exchanged for Jamie. We don't know what would have happened. But there is a big WHAT IF in a scenario where Sansa had obeyed her father and got on a ship with Arya to Winterfell. 

Even if escaping on the ship was possible, Ned in the black cells couldn't know it. The Lannisters pretended they captured Arya anyway. And ultimately, Ned's life is in Joffrey's hands.

[Mladen]

5 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I've seen many Sansa fans state that whether she went to Cersei or not the outcome would have been the same. And Cerise's POV is valid to state that things would have been different had Sansa not revealed Ned's plans to Cersie.

I think that Sansa defense (and the bolded argument) was also strengthen after Game of Thrones Season 1, when

Spoiler

the said indiscretion was excluded and the events turned to be just the same.

Even GRRM had no objection there (he stated that publicly, IIRC)

 

[teej6]

4 minutes ago, Risto said:

Of course Bran and Sansa incidents are not the same. It is just that we can not put such heavy words like "betrayal" to the acts of disobedience, regardless what the consequences were. If my parents would think I betrayed them every single time I was indiscreet as a child, I would be left somewhere down the road. 

I was speaking from Sansa's perspective. She wasn't there to see her father's objection to the marriage when he spoke to Cat. Ned didn't need some outrageous reason for "sudden visit" to Winterfell. He didn't even have to do that, he could have talked more seriously with her. As for Olenna, she WANTED Margaery to be a queen. But, she understood that marriage would have to work. So, she found a nice way out. Ned's honor certainly didn't permit him to do that, but there were other ways he could have separated Sansa from her dreams and make sure his daughter is truly ready for what's coming.

Again, this doesn't excuse her indiscretion, I just talk about her perspective and mindset.

I understand and appreciate Sansa's motives in going to Cersei but I still think that her act was that of betraying Ned's trust. And I also think that Sansa was aware that she was betraying Ned in going to Cersei. I agree all she wanted was for Cersei to talk to Robert into changing Ned's mind but that does not negate the fact that she revealed Ned's secrets to a woman she knew Ned did not like. 

[Mladen]

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

I understand and appreciate Sansa's motives in going to Cersei but I still think that her act was that of betraying Ned's trust. And I also think that Sansa was aware that she was betraying Ned in going to Cersei. I agree all she wanted was for Cersei to talk to Robert into changing Ned's mind but that does not negate the fact that she revealed Ned's secrets to a woman she knew Ned did not like. 

Have you seen "The Lion King"? Would you say that Simba betrayed Mufasa? 

[Maxxine]

37 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

So why even ask? This thread is twenty-eight pages long, and nothing anyone has said has moved you yet. But if you're open to different opinions, I'll offer some. I'd just love to hear more reaction than 'no'.

Partly, Sansa is being self-centred, selfish if you like. In her life, she and Arya always had someone to protect them. So 'someone' should be protecting Arya now. On the other hand, Jeyne is too insignificant to have any enemies, so should be safe. So Sansa thinks of herself. Outside the chapter, we don't know how many times she thinks of Arya, or vice versa.

One more possibility. Varamyr's master told him that an animal's nature crosses over into the skinchanger. We also know that a dead skinchanger can live on inside his animal. So as well as the trauma of losing her wolf (Varamyr was knocked out by same) - it is at least possible that Sansa's mind has to assimilate a bit of wolf. I think this is what happened. Certainly our little pink princess seems to have two personalities: often she's fearful and weak; occasionally she's recklessly brave and unmoved by the sights of blood and horror forced upon her. Basically, she's struggling to think clearly.

One explanation I cannot believe is that Sansa is an ice-hearted freak who landed in the loving Stark family like a deus-ex-machina.

 

Well I asked bc I haven't seen anything about that specific chapter on here. It's the chapter that did it for me regarding Sansa so Im curious how other people especially her supporters react to it since it is such a damning chapter IMO. I'm actually not necessarily looking to have my opinion about her changed. I just wanted some different perspectives on it since this a discussion board.

I think your explainations are a stretch. If her mindset is Arya should be protected so I don't need worry about her then the same logic should apply to Joffrey who is Prince. He would be more protected than Arya. And we do know how many times she thinks about Arya (and vice versa). We have her POVs for four more books thus having her inner thoughts. But she does think about Arya at times throughout the series so that's somewhat irrelevant bc I'm really just talking about the one chapter.

i don't follow your skinchanger explanation completely. I will say I'm not sure how much the Varymyr stuff applies to Sansa. I know GRRM confirmed she's a warg but she never even had a wolf dream so I'm not sure if that connection ever became a thing really for her. So I'm not sure if all those skinchanging "rules" would apply to her.  

[Woman of War]

23 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

but hey Ty fancied her but didn't do it.  I am female but when a male or female for that matter gets castigated for what they fancy instead of what they do (happen to be a lawyer in real) I get a little feisty lol

This

Tyrion's  conflict would have been rather lame in comparison, if Sansa had been a skinny little girl,  had not been a child In a woman's body, had not been sexually desirable, had not been the very present memory of Tysha. 

Actually the wedding night chapter is one of the best in the books imo. Martin grasped the misery of both protagonists in a heartbreaking way: the child who tries to do what that septa and this world taught her as duty, who tries to emulate the proper wife: "she did not know what to do. Should she open her legs for him....." this is so painful, the child brainwashed into female duty, miserable and yet trying to do what is expected of her. As it happens in countless forced and arranged marriages all over our world still today.

The man desperate in his longing to repeat the only happy time of his miserable life while already convinced that this can never be. Both characters made naked by the author emotionally and physically, their vulnerability laid bare.

That painful chapter, brilliantly written, both characters humiliated, denuded,  exposed  and dissected by Martin. Great writing.

 

 

[Darkstream]

8 minutes ago, David Selig said:

What "plans and secrets" of Ned did Sansa reveal? It is not like she knew anything about his plans and secrets except that her father was sending her to WF on that day.

Exactly, Sansa had no idea that Cercei was an enemy. And she knew nothing about the feud between her father and the Lanisters. She had no idea that Joffrey was iligitimate. She had no idea that Ned was planning to oppose Joffrey's claim, or that he attempted to buy off the gold cloaks. All she knew was that Ned was sending her home. What exactly did she betray to Cercei?

[teej6]

5 minutes ago, David Selig said:

What "plans and secrets" of Ned did Sansa reveal? It is not like she knew anything about his plans and secrets except that her father was sending her to WF on that day.

"Her father's plans" is the words Cersei uses. Sansa knew that her father was sending her and her sister back to Winterfell on a ship. In telling Cersei this, Cersei was able to hold Sansa hostage and make sure no ships sailed from KL with Arya or Stark men. This also meant Cersei knew that Ned was about to act and act quickly.