Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[zandru]

re Bea Noleta:

Thanks! This was really excellent! See what happens when we judge other characters by the same standards we use for Sansa?

[Little Scribe of Naath]

2 hours ago, zandru said:

Tyrion was open and vulnerable to the least show of affection from Sansa. He clearly felt terrible that she was feeling bad about him, blaming himself even more than he deserved. But Sansa was too self-absorbed to notice anything but her own little fee-fees. And, as with the Hound, she couldn't handle his scarred face or overall unattractiveness. So she remained passive, doing nothing, nada, zippo, to help herself or otherwise deal with her situation. Waitin' on that handsome knight on a white horse to ride up, yo!

Once again, it was not because she thought Tyrion was ugly, that she didn't trust him. She didn't trust him because he was a Lannister, which was the family who brutally murdered her own. 

For heavens sake, she is practically in love with the Hound. She imagines him kissing her on the night of the Blackwater. 

And about Sansa's self-absorbedness, shortly after she married, she received the news of the RW. She was grieving for them. Not exactly the time to be plotting and opening up to her husband.

[Bea Noleto]

On 22/09/2016 at 7:47 PM, Chebyshov said:

Cat is the poster child for internalized patriarchal messaging. Sansa didn't pop out of the womb worshipping maidenhood and chivalry and having idealized notions about princes. She was literally sexually groomed until she came to understand her role and came to view the society in this way, kind of like how Cat's Whispering Woods monologue is all about how she's been forced to wait for her men, and that's her lot in life, and she doesn't even think to question or challenge this. I call this internalization "patriarchy brain" (men have it as well, like Barry's rose-colored Ashara glasses precluding him from even considering female sexual agency), and Martin explores this rather intimately with every character, especially Sansa and Cat.

Cat it the oposite of internalized patriarchy. She meddled in everything she was not supposed to according to the rules of her society. She seized Tyrion, took part in Robb's council, berated her brother the Lord of Riverlands, she releasd Jaime usurping Robb's power. Being a lady was only a pretense for Cat, because she didn't know anything different. And after she found out there was fighting women, like Brienne and the Mormont women she wished she could have been one of them. 

Sansa was educated and spoiled by Septa Mordane.

[zandru]

Re: Little Scribe of Naath

Quote

Once again, it was not because she thought Tyrion was ugly, that she didn't trust him. She didn't trust him because he was a Lannister, which was the family who brutally murdered her own. 

For heavens sake, she is practically in love with the Hound. She imagines him kissing her on the night of the Blackwater. 

And about Sansa's self-absorbedness, shortly after she married, she received the news of the RW. She was grieving for them. Not exactly the time to be plotting and opening up to her husband.

Sansa did indeed think Tyrion was ugly and was repulsed by him: "He's uglier than the Hound" she thinks, and looks him over with loathing on their wedding night for exactly that reason. Sure, she didn't "trust" him for being a Lannister, but the repulsion by his looks was a big factor in Sansa's treatment - and rejection - of Tyrion.

"Practically in love with the Hound"??? Please. When she thinks of Sandor Clegane (and rarely by name, just as "the Hound"), it's always in the context of "he would be useful here" or "he would have saved me in this situation" or "he'd be fiercer and more dangerous than that other guy." And of course, "Now Tyrion looks even worse." She doesn't think of Clegane in a way that we would consider "caring", which I hope is still a part of love these days, or in Westeros? She doesn't worry about where he is or what he might be doing; whether he's recovered from his wounds from the battle; what he meant when he told her that he had "lost all." And when she has what you'd call "romantic" thoughts, it's always of a whitewashed, distorted recollection of a "kiss" that never happened, of her being a brave young woman instead of a terrified girl who just hid under the covers until Clegane went away (in tears, which she noticed but never responded to.) Sansa is always the heroine of her own song, just like THE songs, which provide a distorted, whitewashed, romanticized version of "history."

Reading her POV, when she sits there sullenly with Tyrion, she isn't thinking of Robb and her mother. She's just thinking of how to be unresponsive and self-absorbed, so that Tyrion will feel uncomfortable and guilty for having married her. It isn't as much grief as pique or pout.

[Wall Flower]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

Re: Little Scribe of Naath

Sansa did indeed think Tyrion was ugly and was repulsed by him: "He's uglier than the Hound" she thinks, and looks him over with loathing on their wedding night for exactly that reason. Sure, she didn't "trust" him for being a Lannister, but the repulsion by his looks was a big factor in Sansa's treatment - and rejection - of Tyrion.

"Practically in love with the Hound"??? Please. When she thinks of Sandor Clegane (and rarely by name, just as "the Hound"), it's always in the context of "he would be useful here" or "he would have saved me in this situation" or "he'd be fiercer and more dangerous than that other guy." And of course, "Now Tyrion looks even worse." She doesn't think of Clegane in a way that we would consider "caring", which I hope is still a part of love these days, or in Westeros? She doesn't worry about where he is or what he might be doing; whether he's recovered from his wounds from the battle; what he meant when he told her that he had "lost all." And when she has what you'd call "romantic" thoughts, it's always of a whitewashed, distorted recollection of a "kiss" that never happened, of her being a brave young woman instead of a terrified girl who just hid under the covers until Clegane went away (in tears, which she noticed but never responded to.) Sansa is always the heroine of her own song, just like THE songs, which provide a distorted, whitewashed, romanticized version of "history."

Reading her POV, when she sits there sullenly with Tyrion, she isn't thinking of Robb and her mother. She's just thinking of how to be unresponsive and self-absorbed, so that Tyrion will feel uncomfortable and guilty for having married her. It isn't as much grief as pique or pout.

Yes, how dare a 12 year old hostage show any pique about being forcibly married to one of her jailers so that his family can steal her home after they have defeated or killed her family. How dare she think about herself instead of how awful it must be for her husband to be married to an unresponsive wife who doesn't desire him.

In fact, Sansa repeatedly says she doesn't trust him because he's a Lannister - even his kindness, which she acknowledges, is suspect because the kindness shown by Joffrey and Cersei proved so false. She spouts the same lies to Tyrion as to Cersei and Joffrey because she doesn't trust him. Despite that, Sansa is still shamed by Tyrion's distress when she doesn't kneel at their wedding and prays for him before the Battle of Blackwater. Personally, I would just want his head on a spike, along with the rest of his family. When Sansa thinks about a possible sexual relationship with Tyrion (noting that she's 12!), what she actually thinks is about how needy he is and about how 'pity is the death of desire'.

As for the Hound, Sansa shows empathy for him right from time he tells her his backstory with Gregor ('he was no true knight') and she includes him in her prayers - praying for the mother to gentle the rage within him. Yes, she was frightened of Sandor (because he was drunk and scary) but she also thinks of him as someone who saved her from harm and she even keeps his cloak.

Sansa is not even close to my favourite character but this thread is starting to make me re-evaluate that. I'm starting to think that it might be the readers that lack empathy, rather than Sansa herself. Certainly, time for a re-read of her POV's.

[David Selig]

9 hours ago, zandru said:

David Selig asserts

Not at all. Sansa might have noticed the dynamic between Tyrion and his sister. If she'd ever bothered to talk to him, instead of sitting around sullenly refusing to speak at all, she'd have realized how much he hated Cersei and also his father Tywin. So he's "a Lannister" - that's all Sansa is capable of seeing, too. She sets aside the times Tyrion helped her, focusing on his surname and his ugliness and his dwarfism.

She knew he hated them. So what? He still worked for them and their interests tirelessly until Joffrey's death.

Quote

Sansa is supposed to have the super-empathy, the super-mannerliness, the super-sensitivity to others. If this were the case (and clearly, it's not), she would have engaged her unwanted husband and gained his sympathy.

Sure, what kind of heartless asshole won't try to engage the guy who married her when she was 12 against her will and whose family murdered hers?

Quote

This nonsense about Tyrion being "a misogenistic scumbag" is absurd. Tyrion LOVED women, and he wanted them to love him back.

He sure showed his love for women when he treated Shae like his blowup doll. Or when he murdered her. Or when he raped the slave woman in Volantis. Or when he was more angry that a woman (Cat) had outsmarted him than from the fact that he was a captive at this point.

Quote

Sansa did indeed think Tyrion was ugly and was repulsed by him: "He's uglier than the Hound" she thinks

Tyrion is very ugly. That is a fact. Every single description of him in the series confirms it. He is even missing half his nose at this point. Sansaactually made an effort to get over it, but she couldn't. That's more that she should have done for an enemy who married against her will. He is also almost as ugly on the inside.

 

[Woman of War]

19 hours ago, zandru said:

I'd like to say a few words about the charges of "sexism" and even "misogyny" that some of y'all have thrown at people who don't love Sansa.

You seem to be saying that bravery is solely a masculine trait. That taking action, instead of sitting passively, is masculine and something that ladies just don't do. That curiosity about the world around them, making friends with others and talking with them, regardless of social class, is something only a Man would do. That resourcefulness and taking responsibility for their own rescue is non-feminine. That only the men can be heroes.

I submit that it's this attitude that is sexist and misogynistic. I spent the 1970s cheering on the women who were trying to open the doors for women and what women were allowed to do and be. The traits y'all celebrate so much in Sansa were the ones they deplored as being too limiting, too self-defeating.

I agree with you, this accusation of misogynism is a dead end  in every Sansa debate. Accusing people of disliking Sansa because she is "feminine" means playing the game of those who declare certain character traits as inherently feminine. Tell me what is misogynistic here! Men can be just as emphatic, can love beauty - or can be as passive, naive and selfish as women. The so called feminine is a social construct. 

"People who dislike Sansa have problems with female characters and women in general....." Posters should stop this line of arguing, it's cheap.

 

Of  course I pity the abused girl, of course I feel for her, she has many parallels in history and in our world where girls (and boys btw)  get sexually abused and  forcibly married. Yes I am sorry for her but of course I know this has to happen to her character in order to make Martin's story the story it is. And it is therefore pointless to hope that Sansa  of all characters might get away lightly while other young characters get killed, burned, raped, sold into sex slavery etc. Martin will give Sansa's character the plot he needs for his books and her character development will be shaped along with it, making the book outcome possible the author has in mind.

Can I pity a character and feel for her or him without liking this fictional character? Of course  I can. I may be hugely interested in Sansa's story and she got some of the best chapters in the books, the wedding night with Tyrion and the snow castle chapter.  And yet - I am still waiting that Sansa herself (we are talking books not show here) and not the situation and location she is in, might really capture  me. This might yet come, I am hopeful, but so far if there is nothing than pity it is death to fascination.

Which character we like and dislike actually tells far more about ourselves than about the character concerned. And I freely admit that I do not particularly like the fictional personality of Sansa, for many reasons already discussed  in this thread by many posters . And yet I would do everything to protect a real life  child in her situation, whether I like this child or not.

 

Quote from Maxxine and I agree 

"I don't mind that she got rescued or that she actually needed rescuing. It's the attitude that she has of there is nothing I can do to help myself. Either someone going to come save me or I'm screwed. Just like to prototypical damsel in distress story. I understand that GRRM most likely did this on purpose to put in that fantasy trope. I'm just not a fan of it and it's a part of the reason why I'm not a Sansa fan"

....and I am waiting for Martin to make Sansa break the trope.

 

 

 

[sweetsunray]

18 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Granted, Ned is a better example than Sansa because I don't believe it crossed his mind that Cersei would go and get Robert killed.  So even if he caused his dead in a way, I don't believe he is guilty of it.  Here comes the concept of foreseeability, although granted, perhaps it ought to have crossed his mind that this might happen, but still the guilty rests with Cersei and Lancel.

But Ned's conversation with Cersei didn't even lead to Cersei killing Robert. Pure timeline info:

Ned talks to Cersei at sunset 3 days before the intended sailing off to White Harbor with his daughters

Robert effectively dies on the day that Ned and daughters were to sail off.

Robert was brought into KL, surprisingly still clinging to life, the night before. In other words 2 days after Ned talks with Cersei.

Renly says to Ned it took them 2 days to carry Robert from where he was gored to KL and Red Keep.

You don't go hunting boar in the dead of night, but preferably at dawn or dusk. Poetically speaking, I think Robert had his accident at dusk.

Hence, while Ned has his conversation with Cersei, Robert was being gored by a boar at the same time.

Hence, Lancel was making Robert dead drunk on his feet, before Ned had his conversation with Cersei.

Hence, Cersei instructed Lancel to make sure that Robert would never return from his hunt alive, before Ned has his conversation with Cersei.

Ned talking or not talking to Cersei would have changed nothing.

[sweetsunray]

16 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

He literally helped her without being asked... And she didn't mind running to cersei...

but it's ok, just resort to personal attacks

He offered her to end her betrothal to Joffrey and such. I agree that nobody can truly do it alone, and Sansa should not be expected to be as pro-active as Arya is. Arya is exceptionally pro-active. It's her specialty, her great talent. I still maintain the belief that if somehow Arya had been sent North, she would have found some way to escape Barrowhall long before being wedded to Ramsay in WF. She's as close to a realistic Houdini as you can get. Even at HH she's constantly considering gates, people not being able to read a thing, movement to disappear. Only reason she had not fled HH, before Jaquen even arrived at HH, was because she feared she could not survive on her own in the forest and she was very reluctant to leave Hot Pie and Gendry. So, she bided her time.

Sansa is very passive and not pro-actively looking for ways to escape. On the one hand she simply does not have the physical stamina that Arya has, and she could not pull off the disguises that Arya has used. However, the latter is because imo Sansa limits such options for herself. Even just feigning being a natural daughter is shocking to her. When LF mentions it, she instantly proposes whether she could not be the trueborn daughter of one of his gallant knights instead. If Sansa were to don common folk garb, cut off her hair and dye it, and wear some loose shirt with pants, she could pull off looking like a servant boy most like. But her mind would be unwilling to consider such a notion, and therefore she could never pull it off mentally, for she cannot pro-actively alter her behavior and attitude to match the disguise. She is therefore realistically very limited in her escape options. She should not try to escape like Arya, because she'd betray herself within minutes.

But I agree that part of the growth for her should be watching and realizing people amongst the sellswords and castle folk and some of the nobles who could be of help to her and Sweetrobin. 

[sweetsunray]

14 hours ago, zandru said:

Tyrion was open and vulnerable to the least show of affection from Sansa. He clearly felt terrible that she was feeling bad about him, blaming himself even more than he deserved. But Sansa was too self-absorbed to notice anything but her own little fee-fees.

Actually, Sansa is willing to give him a chance. On the wedding knight it's Tyrion who barrs any actual emotional and mental intimacy developing between them. He's getting sardonically drunk during the wedding, and she still tries to make the best of the feast by dancing. He mentions his first wife, and Sansa is genuinely curious. He blocks that and says something cynical, then he goes in self-pity mode and now all she can feel for his is pity, which indeed is the death of desire. He's not behaving as vulnerable as you seem to think he does. I don't blame him particularly for acting needy afterwards, because of his past, but he's the supposed adult here. Whether you're a man or a woman matters not, but when someone behaves emotionally needy as if they want a constant pat on the head, that's actually a complete turn-off for the other. Only people I can see stomaching such neediness in a partner are those who'd like to dominate in an unhealthy way. It's like a needy son who wants Sansa to mother him almost. Sandor is far more vulnerable when he reveals his story about how he got burned. Being open and vulnerable is actually showing your truest feelings, fears and insecurities, without an agenda (emotional or mental). Tyrion has an emotional agenda, and he's not honest about it to himself nor to Sansa.   

[Wall Flower]

20 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually, Sansa is willing to give him a chance. On the wedding knight it's Tyrion who barrs any actual emotional and mental intimacy developing between them. He's getting sardonically drunk during the wedding, and she still tries to make the best of the feast by dancing. He mentions his first wife, and Sansa is genuinely curious. He blocks that and says something cynical, then he goes in self-pity mode and now all she can feel for his is pity, which indeed is the death of desire. He's not behaving as vulnerable as you seem to think he does. I don't blame him particularly for acting needy afterwards, because of his past, but he's the supposed adult here. Whether you're a man or a woman matters not, but when someone behaves emotionally needy as if they want a constant pat on the head, that's actually a complete turn-off for the other. Only people I can see stomaching such neediness in a partner are those who'd like to dominate in an unhealthy way. It's like a needy son who wants Sansa to mother him almost. Sandor is far more vulnerable when he reveals his story about how he got burned. Being open and vulnerable is actually showing your truest feelings, fears and insecurities, without an agenda (emotional or mental). Tyrion has an emotional agenda, and he's not honest about it to himself nor to Sansa.   

I tend to think that Sansa understands more about Tyrion than he ever does about her, she just doesn't trust him (for obvious reasons). Other than as a cynical means of survival, I'm not really getting why she should give him a chance in the circumstances of a forced marriage to someone who is ultimately her enemy (even if he is kinder than the rest of his family). I think Sansa is a lot nicer to Tyrion than I would be in the circumstances.

[sweetsunray]

5 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

I tend to think that Sansa understands more about Tyrion than he ever does about her, she just doesn't trust him (for obvious reasons). Other than as a cynical means of survival, I'm not really getting why she should give him a chance in the circumstances of a forced marriage to someone who is ultimately her enemy (even if he is kinder than the rest of his family). I think Sansa is a lot nicer to Tyrion than I would be in the circumstances.

Agreed. Honestly, I'd have told Tyrion from the get-go. I'll marry Lancel over you. While he offers her an out, he does it right after she's been threatened with swords, before she's marched off to the ceremony. That's too late. He kept it to himself for days. He could have been a worse husband, but it does not obligate her to like him, let alone trust him, least of all be attracted to him. And as long as the Starks had Jaime captive, he wouldn't have let go of Sansa anyway. He's not cruel and doesn't want to see her hurt, but he's equally machiavellic about her. In aCoK he's mostly interested in her well-being for Jaime's sake and because he isn't cruel like Cersei or Joffrey. But he also regards her as the necessary hostage to prevent them from killing Jaime, and to be Lord Lannister of WF, and have a prized, pretty wife.

[Wall Flower]

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Agreed. Honestly, I'd have told Tyrion from the get-go. I'll marry Lancel over you. While he offers her an out, he does it right after she's been threatened with swords, before she's marched off to the ceremony. That's too late. He kept it to himself for days. He could have been a worse husband, but it does not obligate her to like him, let alone trust him, least of all be attracted to him. And as long as the Starks had Jaime captive, he wouldn't have let go of Sansa anyway. He's not cruel and doesn't want to see her hurt, but he's equally machiavellic about her. In aCoK he's mostly interested in her well-being for Jaime's sake and because he isn't cruel like Cersei or Joffrey. But he also regards her as the necessary hostage to prevent them from killing Jaime, and to be Lord Lannister of WF, and have a prized, pretty wife.

I'd have to trawl through my antiquated Kindle but I seem to recall that Lancel wasn't very nice to Sansa before he got religion and his last name was still Lannister. I think for Sansa, Tyrion was the best of a very bad bunch but that isn't really saying much.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Wall Flower said:

I'd have to trawl through my antiquated Kindle but I seem to recall that Lancel wasn't very nice to Sansa before he got religion and his last name was still Lannister. I think for Sansa, Tyrion was the best of a very bad bunch but that isn't really saying much.

He wasn't nice after the Battle of Oxcross, and is initially a lick spittle, but he starts to stand up to Cersei with the Blackwater. I don't think it's so very much the finding of religion that made him say "fuck it!", but he was growingly disillusioned about the whole "We're Lannister" stuff and he was seeking something to dissociate himself from his family. At the very least it would have bought her time, since he was wounded and couldn't perform. 

[spauldo17]

I can't believe Sansa gets the support that she does, she's a zero-sum character.  She hasn't done a single positive action in the entire series! She just exists, like a rudderless boat on a wave, helpless to choose her own direction.  She simply does what everyone else tells her to.  Shes been controlled by her parents, by cersei, by joffrey, by little finger, by ramsay.   She is such an empty character.

I honestly can't think of one thing she has done in the series that could be considered proactive action.  She's easily one of the worst characters, she has the most boring chapters, and the most boring story line.  Even her little sister whom she always made fun of is off doing something positive.  Every Stark sibling (including Jon) has done something positive in their lives, except her. 

Get out of here with your "Sansa is the t!ts" bologna!

[spauldo17]

3 hours ago, Woman of War said:

I agree with you, this accusation of misogynism is a dead end  in every Sansa debate. Accusing people of disliking Sansa because she is "feminine" means playing the game of those who declare certain character traits as inherently feminine. Tell me what is misogynistic here! Men can be just as emphatic, can love beauty - or can be as passive, naive and selfish as women. The so called feminine is a social construct. 

"People who dislike Sansa have problems with female characters and women in general....." Posters should stop this line of arguing, it's cheap.

 

 

 

 

 

This is blatantly false.  The notion that "feminine qualities are just a social construct" is a hippy-dippy bologna sandwich lie.  There are traits, inherent to MOST men and traits inherent to MOST women.  This is documentable, and observable.  Men and Women are designed differently on a chemical level in our brains, that's science.  MOST women tend to be more empathetic, and passive.  While MOST Men tend to be more aggressive in nature.   We know this because thousands of years of observation has supported this. 

Yes, there are men who are more sensitive and passive.  And yes, there are women who are aggressive and work out and could beat up the average guy.   But when we are talking about societal norms we talk about the "average" individual of a given social group, not the exception.  Using the exception to make a point is a futile exercise because they are just that - exceptions to the norm.

I do agree with you, however, that the argument "people who dislike Sansa have problems with female characters" is garbage.  I, for example, can not stand Sansa.  Yet I like Dany, and Cersei (as a character not morally), and Cat.  It's not the femininity that people don't like about Sansa, it's her apparent allergy to doing anything positive.  Her whole life has been one big pity party for herself. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

I tend to think that Sansa understands more about Tyrion than he ever does about her, she just doesn't trust him (for obvious reasons). Other than as a cynical means of survival, I'm not really getting why she should give him a chance in the circumstances of a forced marriage to someone who is ultimately her enemy (even if he is kinder than the rest of his family). I think Sansa is a lot nicer to Tyrion than I would be in the circumstances.

She humiliated him in public... During the wedding neither of them wanted.

He's only ultimately her enemy if she decides that, could have been/become a potential ally, still might.

I'm not convinced Sansa really understands anything that's going on or is capable of rational judgement... She seems to hate him for his family name and disability... That's not rational or a good way to judge people.

Of course she isn't alone, both Jon and Rob judge Tyrion harshly at first, then change their minds rather quickly. Even Cat, who I don't like either, sort of comes around on Tyrion, and she almost never sees common sense.

but his is really all just getting sidetracked from the real issue which is that Sansa doesn't proactively do anything, and compared to the other characters is just a pitiful spoiled princess in a tower the whole time, waiting to be used/saved/tricked...

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

She humiliated him in public... During the wedding neither of them wanted.

He's only ultimately her enemy if she decides that, could have been/become a potential ally, still might.

I'm not convinced Sansa really understands anything that's going on or is capable of rational judgement... She seems to hate him for his family name and disability... That's not rational or a good way to judge people.

Of course she isn't alone, both Jon and Rob judge Tyrion harshly at first, then change their minds rather quickly. Even Cat, who I don't like either, sort of comes around on Tyrion, and she almost never sees common sense.

but his is really all just getting sidetracked from the real issue which is that Sansa doesn't proactively do anything, and compared to the other characters is just a pitiful spoiled princess in a tower the whole time, waiting to be used/saved/tricked...

Poor Tyrion... Getting one of three most desirable brides in the continent, someone tied with title and good prospects of great inheritance? People should be reminded that even though Tyrion initially said "no", Tywin and Kevan didn't have to sweat to goad him into marriage. On the other side, she was said that she can be beaten to death if she even considers saying "no".

For someone of Sansa's stature to be married for Tyrion is quite the humiliation. People forget that far lesser Houses than Starks have refused Tywin without a second thought. So, if she made him quite clear what she thinks of the marriage, well, he should have chosen a bride who actually knew what she is going into.

I blame Dinklage and show for this. Apparently TV show made us forget that Sansa was oblivious to the fact she is getting married or the fact that Tyrion wasn't ordered, but actually goaded into it. And it all peaks when he "offers" Lancel, which is the emptiest of all offers in the series, as Tyrion was perfectly aware of Lancel's condition.

Also, Tyrion is Sansa's enemy. Tyrion was the one who saved Joffrey from Stannis, the one who made sure that Joffrey stays King as long as he may live. Tyrion was quintessentially part of Lannister pride and to argue that he is not an enemy to the Starks would not just be reaching, it is blatantly incorrect. 

She doesn't hate him because of his name, she hates him because he is a Lannister, member of the family that killed her father and at the moment were at war with her brother. Unless there is some piece of information I am not privy to, Tyrion's support of Lannister reign would naturally make him an enemy to people on Stark side. 

Furthermore, Sansa doesn't hate him because he is a dwarf. She just doesn't want to be married to one. Which is not shallow, which is not wrong. Contrary to the popular belief around here, being a dwarf doesn't give you "sexiest man alive" (unless, you are Peter Dinklage, of course). Simply, Tyrion was deformed, he was a dwarf, not to mention that he was supporting family who wished nothing good for her and her own. Is it so crazy she wasn't spreading her legs to him?

Sansa gives credit to Tyrion when credit is due and she was very much aware of how nice he can be. But even Tyrion doesn't blame her for being "walking dead" after her family's demise. She even made it clear to Lysa that he didn't touch her. So, she was aware of that, but that doesn't mean somehow they become besties.

Interestingly how people name Sansa passive and say she has no initiative, that she is not proactive, when actually it was her being proactive that got her into this mess. She took things into her own hands and it blew right in her own face. Also, Sansa is constantly feeling powerless. She has been constantly abused for months. And not just physically but also verbally and emotionally. We don't blame women when they after years of abuse come clean and report it, but 12-year-old girl who had no liberty, none whatsoever, is suddenly being passive. And we hold that against her? Really?

 

[Greywater-Watch]

I feel that Sansa's development is one of the most interesting and best written ones - from the naive and selfish and stupid and arrogant girl in the first books towards her role as Alayne tutored by Littlefinger. Only matched - in my opinion - by the evolution around Doran Martell and his family in Dorne (being totally nuked to a ridicule in the TV Show).

I remember having read somewhere, that GRRM regretted to have written the Sansa-Cersei-betrayal (AGOT) in Sansa's storyline. (Has that already been mentioned in this thread? I have not read all of it).

That is indeed a bit too much away from being naive and stupid, tending to clear (family) betrayal.

Nevertheless, personally I do not like Sansa - gods helps her if Arya should ever learn the truth about Sansa's betrayal, e.g. from Tyrion.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

54 minutes ago, Risto said:

Poor Tyrion... Getting one of three most desirable brides in the continent, someone tied with title and good prospects of great inheritance? People should be reminded that even though Tyrion initially said "no", Tywin and Kevan didn't have to sweat to goad him into marriage. On the other side, she was said that she can be beaten to death if she even considers saying "no".

For someone of Sansa's stature to be married for Tyrion is quite the humiliation. People forget that far lesser Houses than Starks have refused Tywin without a second thought. So, if she made him quite clear what she thinks of the marriage, well, he should have chosen a bride who actually knew what she is going into.

I blame Dinklage and show for this. Apparently TV show made us forget that Sansa was oblivious to the fact she is getting married or the fact that Tyrion wasn't ordered, but actually goaded into it. And it all peaks when he "offers" Lancel, which is the emptiest of all offers in the series, as Tyrion was perfectly aware of Lancel's condition.

Also, Tyrion is Sansa's enemy. Tyrion was the one who saved Joffrey from Stannis, the one who made sure that Joffrey stays King as long as he may live. Tyrion was quintessentially part of Lannister pride and to argue that he is not an enemy to the Starks would not just be reaching, it is blatantly incorrect. 

She doesn't hate him because of his name, she hates him because he is a Lannister, member of the family that killed her father and at the moment were at war with her brother. Unless there is some piece of information I am not privy to, Tyrion's support of Lannister reign would naturally make him an enemy to people on Stark side. 

Furthermore, Sansa doesn't hate him because he is a dwarf. She just doesn't want to be married to one. Which is not shallow, which is not wrong. Contrary to the popular belief around here, being a dwarf doesn't give you "sexiest man alive" (unless, you are Peter Dinklage, of course). Simply, Tyrion was deformed, he was a dwarf, not to mention that he was supporting family who wished nothing good for her and her own. Is it so crazy she wasn't spreading her legs to him?

Sansa gives credit to Tyrion when credit is due and she was very much aware of how nice he can be. But even Tyrion doesn't blame her for being "walking dead" after her family's demise. She even made it clear to Lysa that he didn't touch her. So, she was aware of that, but that doesn't mean somehow they become besties.

Interestingly how people name Sansa passive and say she has no initiative, that she is not proactive, when actually it was her being proactive that got her into this mess. She took things into her own hands and it blew right in her own face. Also, Sansa is constantly feeling powerless. She has been constantly abused for months. And not just physically but also verbally and emotionally. We don't blame women when they after years of abuse come clean and report it, but 12-year-old girl who had no liberty, none whatsoever, is suddenly being passive. And we hold that against her? Really?

 

Lancel's condition?

Tyrion didn't want the wedding any more than Sansa, and didn't even consummate the marriage as he was told to... I'm not usually one to give any credit for not raping someone, but this might be an exception.

And I love how your argument is that Sansa is hot so it's ok she didn't want to marry a dwarf? I mean sure she should be able to choose a husband based on whatever standards she would like (totally disregarding any of the practical/societal norms for a medieval culture, aka ladies/princesses don't get a say in their spouses, same is generally true for men), but I'm sure as hell going to judge her, and you, and anyone else that thinks it's ok to judge the man because of his name and because he's a dwarf. That's just morals 101.

So when we compare her to the other characters, she's had by far the easiest time of it, is seemingly morally bankrupt, and is unwilling to act on her own behalf. There are lots of faults in lots of characters with plenty of room for grey, and everyone has extenuating circumstances, but Sansa has no redeeming qualities... No virtues besides shallow beauty...

(I always think of Commodus from Gladiator, As I read the list, I knew I had none of them. But I have other virtues, father. Ambition. That can be a virtue when it drives us to excel. Resourcefulness, courage, perhaps not on the battlefield, but... there are many forms of courage. Devotion, to my family and to you. But none of my virtues were on your list. 

Aaand then he kills his dad