Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[Protagoras]

9 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Sansa says "I don't remember". Later Lady is killed. You say this is cause and effect. Prove it.

Mycah is already dead by the way.

Ok, in that case there is no connection between Jaime pushing Bran and then Jaime later losing said hand. After all, thats two different and completely separate events right?

Sansas loss of Lady is indeed a symbolic consequence of her own choice of loyalty. Keyword: Symbolic.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

24 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

What is remarkable to me is that helping a wounded (handsome) knight one time is somehow showing development... 

I can't recall a single sacrifice this girl has ever made

Of course it is showing development. The entire point of character development is when a character changes their thinking and actions, for good or bad. The AGOT Sansa would not have done this, the ACOK Sansa did. 

22 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

Re I., Sansa also doesn't give up on saving Ser Dontos. When Joffrey says that he will have the fool killed on the morrow, Sansa takes the opening to persuade Joff into making Dontos his fool rather than killing him. Considering how scared she is of Joffrey, she is really showing some courage on behalf of someone she hardly knows.

We don't have to gloss over her 11 year old mistakes but we shouldn't blow them out of all proportion and equate Sansa with adults committing actual murder, treason and war crimes.

Agreed so much. 

 

 

She is also kind to poor Lollys, and tries to coerce her to come inside Maegor's during the battle:

Quote

It was another sort of song, a terrible song. Sansa pulled the hood of her cloak up over her ears, and hurried toward Maegor's Holdfast, the castle-within-a-castle where the queen had promised they would all be safe. At the foot of the drawbridge, she came upon Lady Tanda and her two daughters. Falyse had arrived yesterday from Castle Stokeworth with a small troop of soldiers. She was trying to coax her sister onto the bridge, but Lollys clung to her maid, sobbing, "I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to."

"The battle is begun," Lady Tanda said in a brittle voice.

"I don't want to, I don't want to."

There was no way Sansa could avoid them. She greeted them courteously. "May I be of help?"

Lady Tanda flushed with shame. "No, my lady, but we thank you kindly. You must forgive my daughter, she has not been well."

"I don't want to." Lollys clutched at her maid, a slender, pretty girl with short dark hair who looked as though she wanted nothing so much as to shove her mistress into the dry moat, onto those iron spikes. "Please, please, I don't want to."

Sansa spoke to her gently. "We'll all be thrice protected inside, and there's to be food and drink and song as well."

The AGOT Sansa wouldn't have even given her a thought.

And however annoying Sansa (and all of us) might find Sweetrobin, she deals with him with admirable patience and kindness, practically becoming a surrogate sister to him after his mother's death. 

The idea that she has not developed at all, or she is as self-centred now as she was in AGOT, does not hold water.

[Protagoras]

It should also be pointed out that this was not a hate thread over Sansa but a thread originally where the OP claimed to wanted to talk about her development, but instead tried to defend her past in an extreme sugarcoated way (Which are almost like opposites you know, since if you are perfect from the beginning you don´t really develop).

So, all Sansa fans. If you don´t want me and others to "attack a 11 year old girl  because we hate women" then maybe you should think really, really carefully next time before you try to argue that said girl was perfect, did no errors and in general think that everything she did are other persons faults. Then you have really given an excuse to all the "haters".

[Philokles]

39 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

All this makes me certain that she was following Ned's instructions when she gave evidence at the Mycah trial. For the first time in her life, she was trying to lie a little, to be clever in what she said, to pick and choose what facts she let out.

You think it is in Ned's character to lie to please someone? Especially when that someone is Cersei Lannister? You think he'd hang his own daughter out to dry for little benefit? That is before you even look at Ned's POV for evidence that he expected the truth from Sansa.

 

Quote

"Find Sansa and bring her to the audience chamber. Her voice may be needed." 

If Ned wanted Sansa left out of the matter then he would not have summoned her - then there would be no need for a lie. But no, Ned wants her there, and to give proper evidence as he says she may be needed to speak.

 

Quote

"They were not the only ones present," Ned said. "Sansa, come here." Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. "Tell us what happened."

Ned is focusing on his knowledge of the truth here, immediately before he instructs Sansa to speak. The corroboration of Arya's story by Sansa is clearly at the forefront of his mind, not the formulation of some lie.

[Protagoras]

34 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

We don't have to gloss over her 11 year old mistakes but we shouldn't blow them out of all proportion and equate Sansa with adults committing actual murder, treason and war crimes.

If we have an OP who writes things like... 

"So even at that time, Sansa was smart enough to realize that no matter what she said, her family would be screwed either way, so she believed that saying she didn't know what happened and try to stay neutral, hoping that no one would get in trouble" 

" She told Cersei about what was going on because she was a scared little girl that didn't know any better. And she even begged them not to do anything to him. She thought they would be merciful and not harm him, but instead Joffrey betrayed his promise and had him killed. So the whole thing was Joffrey's fault, not Sansa obviously"

...then we certainly need to discuss if that is a realistic take on the character. And deflecting this by comparing her to worse people (as the quite ridiculous thread "Sansa is the worst person in Westeros" did, in order to deflect any kind of criticism towards her) shows that we need to have this discussion again and again and again. 

[Winter prince]

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

At no point have I said that she is "just a classic spoilt girl" 

She is a very normal 11 year old girl when we meet her. She develops throughout the books and we see a very changed young woman in the later books. 

You are very wrong, and I assure you that my experience in reading as I said Thousands of posts in various areas of the fandom absolutely refute the notion her sex has nothing to do with the dislike so many have for her as a character.  I think a really good point is made by your own post. When was the last time you saw a thread dedicated to what a prick Renly was for wanting the throne?  I'll tell you when precisely never. 

She didn't betray her family for personal gain, she chose to testify that she couldn't recall inorder to save herself from a life time of potential misery. That is in no way at all akin to forming an army and seeking to seize the thrown as supreme monarch of the nation which your brother is in fact the true heir to. 

Renly did far and away worse than Sansa yet he barely gets a sniff of dislike, in fact he's really rather popular. 

Sansa is yet to make a selfless choice? How I laughed when I read this.  Errrrr Dontos? Lancel?  talk about blinkered reading. 

Renly was barely a footnote and Sansa is a main character

[Protagoras]

Just now, Winter prince said:

Renly was barely a footnote and Sansa is a main character

Also, I remember several thread criticizing him, mostly from a (back then) very strong Stannis the mannis fan support. 

Hell, I remember the poster RenlyIsNotRight. 

[Lion of the West]

To bad we don't have the "likes" button any more. But count me in the one people who like Sansa and hope for a larger and greater part in the story that is to come for her.

[Winter's Cold]

5 minutes ago, Winter prince said:

Renly was barely a footnote and Sansa is a main character

Furthermore Sansa has a POV while Renly does not. Thus we have far more information about Sansa's thoughts and motivations than we do about Renly's. That's why there are far more threads analyzing Sansa than there are analyzing Renly.

[Winter prince]

1 minute ago, LionoftheWest said:

To bad we don't have the "likes" button any more. But count me in the one people who like Sansa and hope for a larger and greater part in the story that is to come for her.

I look forward to where she's going... I'm ready for Alayne to become Sansa again

[LiveFirstDieLater]

34 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Sansa says "I don't remember". Later Lady is killed. You say this is cause and effect. Prove it.

Mycah is already dead by the way.

I did not say this is cause and effect... I said this was not some innocent white lie.

She's old enough to know right from wrong and we're talking about a situation where a boy ended up being killed... 

My point was that this isn't some deep political intrigue, nor was it a childish game, it was a legitimate test of character, which in my opinion she failed completely.

 

Also, she's currently plotting to kill/let LF kill Lord Arryn and marry his heir... How has she improved? 

Occasionally being nice to people isn't enough to redeem her in my opinion

[erra]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Wrong: Ned warns Cersei at dusk 3 days away from the planned leaving by boat he set-up. He never sped up the plans to leave. So, Ned told Cersei 2.5 days before the noon they were to leave the keep for the ship. The night before the planned leaving, Robert was carried in the Red Keep, hours away from being dead. In other words, Robert returned to the Red Keep, 2 days after Ned warned Cersei at dusk (sunset). Per Renly it took them 2 days to get Robert back to the Red Keep after he was gored by the boar, already heavily drunk on his feet. Best hunting time would be dawn or dusk, when wildlife comes out to find food. That would mean that at the latest, Robert was being gored by the boar, at the same time that Ned sproke to Cersei. Ned going to Cersei did not directly influence her murder plans. Varys LIED! (surprise, surprise). She knew though he was digging for bastards for months and that inevitably he would discover and figure out the secret, and that Ned was not Jon Arryn when it came to advizing caution against the Lannisters. The sooner Robert was dead, the better for her. And surely, Cersei did receive a messenger (raven or on fast horse) the night right after Ned confronted her, to inform her of Robert's deadly hunting accident. Cersei did not flee, because she knew it would be too late, and had two days to prepare to bribe the Gold CLoaks, etc. She only was worried somewhat when Robert ordered Cersei to leave so he could speak with Ned in private.

That's a good point, I hadn't figured out the timeline like that before. 

In any case, this doesn't necessarily change that Sansa going to Cersei probably didn't have any real drastic effect on the outcome. At least none I can think of?

It's tough rereading those chapters because I can't help but hope that Ned will do it differently this time. Of course, he never does. 

Personally I think his best course of action would've been to basically follow Little Finger's advice and support Cersei / Joffrey in their claim to the throne, but then to step down as Hand of the king and return to Winterfell with his daughters and household guards. From there he could have approached the other houses in Westeros, especially Stannis and Renly, to figure out some kind of rebellion against the crown. AFTER winter. Because winter really is coming. Who knows what percentage of fighting men were lost because of these wars that would have been a huge help during the Long Night, not to mention all the harvests and foodstuffs lost. 

Or even followed Renly's advice to take Cersei and her children into custody immediately the night Robert returned. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Hoe come nobody goes bonkers over Stannis anymore? 

[Lurid Jester]

People seem to put a lot of stress on her saying "I don't remember" and being responsible for all the bad shit that follows.  

I don't like Sansa, but really let's put the blame where it belongs. 

Robert was weak and let Cersie ride roughshod  all over him. He KNEW Joffrey was lying but didn't do anything about it, instead allowing the pressure to be put on a child who had no concept of the consequences for her actions. 

Robert knew the consequences, but better to hurt his friend than to challenge Cersie and actually punish Joffrey for being an asshat. 

Keep in mind I'm referring only to that scene.  The other stuff Sansa does that results in tragedy I attribute to her being.... well, naive.   Very naive, to a point. 

[Chebyshov]

6 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

People seem to put a lot of stress on her saying "I don't remember" and being responsible for all the bad shit that follows.  

I don't like Sansa, but really let's put the blame where it belongs. 

Robert was weak and let Cersie ride roughshod  all over him. He KNEW Joffrey was lying but didn't do anything about it, instead allowing the pressure to be put on a child who had no concept of the consequences for her actions. 

Robert knew the consequences, but better to hurt his friend than to challenge Cersie and actually punish Joffrey for being an asshat. 

Keep in mind I'm referring only to that scene.  The other stuff Sansa does that results in tragedy I attribute to her being.... well, naive.   Very naive, to a point. 

omg are you saying that there's a breakdown of the idealization of the perfect knight and the maiden throughout the series or something? I'm all astonishment since apparently she's still just that selfish lil' brat (who accidentally saved her family's political future with that cowardly and dishonorable "I don't remember").

(too lazy to change my fonts, but in seriousness I like this post and its balance).

Like seriously...this is a character who's practically defined by her empathy. That doesn't mean she didn't fuck up anywhere (what would be the point of reading about that), and that doesn't mean her situation isn't any less precarious right now, and yeah, she's kind of blocking things out she doesn't exactly want to be thinking about. But she will be reclaiming her identity, just like her meticulously paralleled sister. It's just frustrating that for some reason she's the target of hate and frustration and Arya seems to get a pass (I love both these characters dearly, to be clear), just because we have a tendency as a society to worship at the alter of external, "non-feminine" traits.

[Darkstream]

5 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Mirri made a deal with Daenerys and she broke said deal. Daenerys should get revenge for the lies and the false promises Mirri gave to her personally, regardless of what the Dotraki did to her. Therefore she should suffer consequences and considering the amout of deaths, being burned alive is not an unfair punishment.

Mirri's speech to Dany towards the end of the book proves otherwise. She hated them from the start. Her intentions was never to help (not that I blame her, but she did lie to Daenetys about it). She could have tried to deny it - she didn´t. Mirri absolutely does not pay the part of the physician explaining patiently to the grieving mother and wife why her child is dead and her husband a shell of a man.  She does not offer any sympathy or condolences - far from it, she gloats in the death of her son, of her husband's state and taunts her by claiming she will never have another child.

But this thread is about Sansa, not Daenerys. And I don´t think this is sugar-coating in the same way OP did for Sansa. I am aware burning is a brutal way to die. I am aware torturing the winesellers daughter is something you will have to live with for the rest of your life. I am not blaming the Shavepate for the decision Daenerys took. 

Well I strongly disagree with several of the points and interpretations that you have made, but out of respect for the op, and to avoid straying further off topic, I will leave it at that.

Perhaps our paths shall cross in a more suitable thread in the future.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

54 minutes ago, Chebyshov said:

omg are you saying that there's a breakdown of the idealization of the perfect knight and the maiden throughout the series or something? I'm all astonishment since apparently she's still just that selfish lil' brat (who accidentally saved her family's political future with that cowardly and dishonorable "I don't remember").

(too lazy to change my fonts, but in seriousness I like this post and its balance).

Like seriously...this is a character who's practically defined by her empathy. That doesn't mean she didn't fuck up anywhere (what would be the point of reading about that), and that doesn't mean her situation isn't any less precarious right now, and yeah, she's kind of blocking things out she doesn't exactly want to be thinking about. But she will be reclaiming her identity, just like her meticulously paralleled sister. It's just frustrating that for some reason she's the target of hate and frustration and Arya seems to get a pass (I love both these characters dearly, to be clear), just because we have a tendency as a society to worship at the alter of external, "non-feminine" traits.

I can't tell what here is sarcastic and what is serious... Do you really believe that answering "I don't remember" in any way helped her family? That's just a preposterous justification for what is clearly a morally reprehensible answer. 

Empathy? Really? I would say it's the opposite, she's defined by selfishness and a lack of empathy! Is it possible that in future books she learns some humility and how to empathize, I guess...

What you are seeing is how Cersei was when she was a kid (both are the image of a perfect little lady and are even directly compared to the sun)... That's the parallel... look at what happens to Jeyne Poole, and Cersei's childhood friend. Planned on marrying one prince (Rhaegar/Jeoffrey) but instead is forced to marry another man she considers a beast (Robert/Tyrion) who is in love with someone else... I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion and Sansa end up on the throne.

Not Arya who has a very different story arc, and maybe more importantly from a metaphorical standpoint, Nymeria is alive just lost, Lady is dead... I think you are going to be disappointed if you think Sansa gets redeemed, but that's not really the point.

So far Sansa has yet to show me that she's capable of making any sort of sacrifice for anyone else.

selfishness, falsehood, pettiness, and a lack of empathy have nothing to do with masculine/feminine they have to do with morality

[Darksnider05]

Would not Arya be the sister who is defined by her Emapthy?  Like that whole incident with Mycah, wouldn't that be a case of her defending Mycah emapthetically?  Feeling like a piece of shit at what she had to do for Nymeria?

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 minute ago, Darksnider05 said:

Would not Arya be the sister who is defined by her Emapthy?  Like that whole incident with Mycah, wouldn't that be a case of her defending Mycah emapthetically?  Feeling like a piece of shit at what she had to do for Nymeria?

 

Right? Sansa feels bad for herself, that's not empathy!

[BlueNightzx]

25 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Right? Sansa feels bad for herself, that's not empathy!

Exactly