Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[Chebyshov]

Do...people...even read here? She's haunted by the idea of a guy who almost raped her taking the fall for her aunt's murder, ffs. She has nightmares about her abuser's death. There's her exchange with Lancel, her moments with Sandor (I would not call myself a SanSan by any stretch of the imagination but after hearing his tale she "no longer feels scared for herself" and is entirely concerned about his emotional well-being).

Fuck in the sample chapter she

Spoiler

helps out the knight who's stuttering just because she can see he's embarrassed.

This may come as a shock, but empathy is not a zero-sum game, and characters aren't defined by one moment, which for the Nth time, would have been politically disastrous had she behaved differently.

Ima step out of the Sansa hatred circle jerk because this is an exercise in futility, but good gods how is this what anyone can think Martin is attempting to do with the character?

ARYA RULEZ SANSA DROOLZ. A+ literary analysis.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

9 minutes ago, Chebyshov said:

Do...people...even read here? She's haunted by the idea of a guy who almost raped her taking the fall for her aunt's murder, ffs. She has nightmares about her abuser's death. There's her exchange with Lancel, her moments with Sandor (I would not call myself a SanSan by any stretch of the imagination but after hearing his tale she "no longer feels scared for herself" and is entirely concerned about his emotional well-being).

Fuck in the sample chapter she

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helps out the knight who's stuttering just because she can see he's embarrassed.

This may come as a shock, but empathy is not a zero-sum game, and characters aren't defined by one moment, which for the Nth time, would have been politically disastrous had she behaved differently.

Ima step out of the Sansa hatred circle jerk because this is an exercise in futility, but good gods how is this what anyone can think Martin is attempting to do with the character?

ARYA RULEZ SANSA DROOLZ. A+ literary analysis.

So you really believe that saying "I don't remember" about the whole Trident thing was good...

i thought maybe I misunderstood or this was your second (or 5th) language...

but no, 

honestly im blown away... I've seen Sansa apologists before but this is great... 

And yes I think George enjoys taking someone framed as evil and redeeming them, just like taking someone framed as good and innocent and showing how they can become the villain. (If I'm guessing I'm looking at Tyrion/Sansa first, but maybe Dany too)

 

Really though no reason to get upset or sexual or childish about this... It's all just for fun, and it's ok if opinions differ

[Darkstream]

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Consider the world of ASOIAF, and the near absolute obedience a girl owes to her father. Sneaking off to the queen to divulge her father's secret plans to return the girls to Winterfell, was a betrayal. 

Yes , it was disobedience, but that is not the same as betrayal. If Sansa was aware of the situation and knew that her going to Cersei could put her father in harm's way, she would have not done so. Without the willful intent of causing Cersei to gain the upper hand, in a situation that Sansa was ignorant of, I don't feel like her actions can be classified as betrayal.

I will concede that in the context of her trying to foil her father's plans to send her back to Winterfell, she can be considered to have betrayed her father, but that is not the way it is being presented by those that are claiming she betrayed the Ned.

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Ok, in that case there is no connection between Jaime pushing Bran and then Jaime later losing said hand. After all, thats two different and completely separate events right?

Sansas loss of Lady is indeed a symbolic consequence of her own choice of loyalty. Keyword: Symbolic.

I see the logic, but the conclusion must be weak because the cases are very different - Jaime is an adult attempting the murder of a child, Sansa is a child claiming she doesn't remember something she should remember. 

Secondly, I love symbolic stuff, and I'll think about it. So far I've always gone with the idea that it's similar to 'let the boy die so the man can be born'. Sansa's ladylike dreams have to die so that she can become a well-rounded adult.

 

2 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

You think it is in Ned's character to lie to please someone? Especially when that someone is Cersei Lannister? You think he'd hang his own daughter out to dry for little benefit? That is before you even look at Ned's POV for evidence that he expected the truth from Sansa.

Ned has a strong record in honour. Equally, Sansa has a strong record in obedience. 

We know Ned's honour can sometimes allow for lying; this is what he says about Arya claiming not to know where Nymeria was.

Quote

"And even the lie was ... not without honour."

Pleasing Cersei doesn't come into it. What's needed is for King Robert to say Joffrey was not attacked in the legal sense, it was just kids fooling about.

2 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

If Ned wanted Sansa left out of the matter then he would not have summoned her - then there would be no need for a lie. But no, Ned wants her there, and to give proper evidence as he says she may be needed to speak.

Specifically, he needs her 'voice'. He doesn't say he needs the truth exactly from Sansa. Part of the truth is that Arya hit Joffrey and gave him a head wound, and Nymeria bit him and left him with an arm wound. Ideally, King Robert would overlook that bit and say 'no incident'. He certainly shouldn't be reminded by Sansa.

We can be sure Cersei went to Robert and said: the wolves are ravening beasts and the girls cannot/don't want to control them.

Sansa and Lady could have a been a strong counter-argument to that, because both are gentle and self-controlled. It doesn't hurt that Sansa is young and beautiful and would appeal to Robert's sentimental nature. But instead we got another display of violence from Arya. I don't blame Arya for this - she was under huge pressure and wanted to do the right thing - but it was unfortunate. Robert spared Arya, but condemned the wolf, for being dangerous and beyond control.

 

2 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Ned is focusing on his knowledge of the truth here, immediately before he instructs Sansa to speak. The corroboration of Arya's story by Sansa is clearly at the forefront of his mind, not the formulation of some lie.

It's possible. Ned is nuts. But we know he manages to focus when his daugters are threatened.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Yes , it was disobedience, but that is not the same as betrayal. If Sansa was aware of the situation and knew that her going to Cersei could put her father in harm's way, she would have not done so. Without the willful intent of causing Cersei to gain the upper hand, I don't feel like her actions can be classified as betrayal.

I will concede that in the context of her trying to foil her father's plans to send her back to Winterfell, she can be considered to have betrayed her father, but that is not the way it is being presented by those that are claiming she betrayed the Ned.

I hear what you're saying...

But I'm not sure intent really matters.

Betray:

to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country. 2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.

Sansa running to Cersei or lying about what she knows at the trident seem to me to be textbook betrayal, both violating trust, and exposing her family to an enemy

[Winter's Cold]

18 minutes ago, Chebyshov said:

Ima step out of the Sansa hatred circle jerk because this is an exercise in futility, but good gods how is this what anyone can think Martin is attempting to do with the character?

ARYA RULEZ SANSA DROOLZ. A+ literary analysis.

I'm not sure why you're criticizing Arya fans when there is a Sansa apologist in this very thread attempting to argue that Ned Stark wanted Sansa to lie about what happened at the Trident. 

That's the level of delusion required to believe that Sansa is blameless in the first book. Apparently Sansa has no responsibility for actions. She is just a young girl who was torn between her family who raised and nurtured her for 11 years and her betrothed, a boy she's know for a couple of weeks. That's a very hard choice for a supposedly intelligent 11 year old. 

Why should readers expect Sansa to be loyal to her family anyway? They won't make her Queen after all.

 

 

[Darkstream]

5 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It's tinfoil and judgement with an occasional joke... What were you expecting?

WTF are you talking about.... Try reading what I wrote, selling out family for personal gain is bad... How did you manage to twist that one around into arranged marriages are good? Incredible

How did Sansa sell out her family? Are you claiming that she knew that going to Cercei would cause her family to be harmed, but she did it anyway?

[Winter's Cold]

10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I hear what you're saying...

But I'm not sure intent really matters.

Betray:

to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country. 2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.

Sansa running to Cersei or lying about what she knows at the trident seem to me to be textbook betrayal, both violating trust, and exposing her family to an enemy

Betrayal has a very negative connotation. That's why Sansa apologists don't want that term applied to her decision to tell Queen Cersei her father's plans. They like to pretend that Sansa didn't know what the consequences of that action would be. This is despite the slaughter of her father's men by the Queen's brother and her father himself being injured. She also had no idea how cruel the Queen was even though she ordered that Lady, an innocent pet, be killed. Either Sansa is a colossal idiot or more likely she knew that the Queen would stop Ned from sending her to Winterfell somehow and she wasn't concerned about what that method would be. It's quite clearly betrayal because she understood and accepted that her father would be negatively affected by her actions.

[Lost Melnibonean]

50 minutes ago, Chebyshov said:

 

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ARYA RULEZ SANSA DROOLZ. A+ literary analysis.

Ha! Man, am I glad I brought popcorn. Hold on a minute while I fetch another beer... Hey, @Lurid Jester, you drinking? 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

10 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

How did Sansa sell out her family? Are you claiming that she knew that going to Cercei would cause her family to be harmed, but she did it anyway?

Winter's Cold nailed it above for betraying her dad... Short answer, yes or she was really really incredibly stupid. Jorey's death still makes me sad for gods' sake

[Chebyshov]

1 minute ago, Winter's Cold said:

I'm not sure why you're criticizing Arya fans when there is a Sansa apologist in this very thread attempting to argue that Ned Stark wanted Sansa to lie about what happened at the Trident. 

That's the level of delusion required to believe that Sansa is blameless in the first book. Apparently Sansa has no responsibility for actions. She is just a young girl who was torn between her family who raised and nurtured her for 11 years and her betrothed, a boy she's know for a couple of weeks. That's a very hard choice for a supposedly intelligent 11 year old. 

Why should readers expect Sansa to be loyal to her family anyway? They won't make her Queen after all.

The point isn't like, oh yeah Sansa was 100% in the right, but the fact is, she has been raised, sexually groomed actually (as has every other highborn in Westeros), to believe her entire purpose and her entire function is to please and soothe the ego of the designated man her family assigns for her to marry, however she feels about it. She is betrothed to the prince, which is literally the most important alliance that can exist. She is taught repeatedly by her septa to just accept whatever shit is thrown at her and to find the beauty in whatever dude she ends up with. It's a completely abusive society in this regards, and she's not exactly in this 100% healthy mindset.

She could have said, "absolutely not, Joff was 100% in the right" but she didn't, because she knew that this was a tough spot to be in, and because she knew, deep down, Joff was a vicious piece of shit. She fooled herself into trying to see otherwise, because she wanted it to be so, and because she'd be raised for it to have to be so. She internalized the patriarchal message so much that she blamed herself for Joff suddenly not seeming interested in her anymore simply because she had the audacity to witness everything that happened.

To pretend that this is simplistically "loyal = telling the truth" when what Sansa did was quite intentionally trying to not take sides as best she could is ridiculous. Whatever Ned wanted aside, had Sansa told the truth, the one true sin of that awful selfish brat or w/e, bye-bye marriage, bye-bye alliance, and Ned's in a considerably more dangerous position than he was before. I'm not saying Sansa was in full awareness of this either, because how could she have been, but the choice she made was in between a rock and a hard place and she still found an option C, one that actually had the least damaging outcome. And she was still the one who suffered the consequences, and she learned from said consequences. This is the moment that kicked off her arc and it was a no-win situation. Frankly all of AGOT is her getting slapped around by the plot while her idealistic notions are shed, though through it we see deeply rooted understanding, compassion, and intuition, despite the fact that she isn't able to wield these perfectly, nor understand what the best ends are. Maybe because again, she's been groomed to one purpose, her father is purposely withholding information from her, and there's no way anyone in her position would be able to understand the political machinations surrounding her.

By ACOK she's learning, and her arc remaining in KL is her trying to survive while also making a performance of these subtle acts of resistance. Moving from there into the more recent books, we're seeing her try to torture out as much agency as possible, despite being in a precarious position and once again. The stuff that's happening around her, she's not really allowing herself the headspace to reflect on it critically, but all the signs are pointing to that changing, all the signs are pointing to her underlying goodness, as trite as a characteristic that might seem.

I suspect we're going to fundamentally disagree on her, but this is where I'm coming from. So there. Bowing out forreal now, and sorry for any terseness, but westeros dot org is so goddamn cyclical sometimes. I've had these conversations at least 90 times before and Sansa isn't even my favorite character.

[Lost Melnibonean]

32 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Yes , it was disobedience, but that is not the same as betrayal. If Sansa was aware of the situation and knew that her going to Cersei could put her father in harm's way, she would have not done so. Without the willful intent of causing Cersei to gain the upper hand, in a situation that Sansa was ignorant of, I don't feel like her actions can be classified as betrayal.

I will concede that in the context of her trying to foil her father's plans to send her back to Winterfell, she can be considered to have betrayed her father, but that is not the way it is being presented by those that are claiming she betrayed the Ned.

There you go. 

[Lurid Jester]

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I can't tell what here is sarcastic and what is serious... Do you really believe that answering "I don't remember" in any way helped her family? That's just a preposterous justification for what is clearly a morally reprehensible answer. 

Morally reprehensible?  Really?  She's what?  11?  You make it sound like she's twirling her mustache while laughing sinisterly. 

She's a kid trying to avoid getting into trouble with her family and trying to not make the family of her "true love" hate her.  

Very bad judgment... but reprehensible?  No more than any child who fibs to try to avoid getting in trouble.  

 

[Winter's Cold]

2 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Morally reprehensible?  Really?  She's what?  11?  You make it sound like she's twirling her mustache while laughing sinisterly. 

Shes a kid trying to avoid getting into trouble with her family and trying to not make family of her "true love" hate her.  

Very bad judgment... but reprehensible?  No more than any child who fibs to try to avoid getting in trouble.  

And Joffrey was 12. I don't see many readers trying to excuse his actions. Age is not an excuse. 11 is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong. This is especially the case in a world in which children grow up fast like Westeros. 

[Winter's Cold]

12 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Winter's Cold nailed it above for betraying her dad... Short answer, yes or she was really really incredibly stupid. Jorey's death still makes me sad for gods' sake

Yeah it's really sad what's happened to the Cassel family. Martyn Cassel died at the Tower of Joy. Jory died in Kings Landing. Rodrik died right outside of Winterfell. Beth Cassel was taken to the Dreadfort and her fate is unknown. It's really tragic what's happened to this family and I hope that Beth is still alive and in good condition in TWOW. I hope she gets the chance to continue the Cassel line.

[David Selig]

So if Sansa lying once and going to Cersei is so reprehensible that it made you really dislike, which characters do you guys like? Pretty much all of them have done way worse stuff...

3 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

And Joffrey was 12. I don't see many readers trying to excuse his actions. Age is not an excuse. 11 is old enough to know the difference between right and wrong. This is especially the case in a world in which children grow up fast like Westeros. 

There is a huge difference between executing and torturing people and lying to get out of trouble.

 

[Lurid Jester]

Are you really using Joffrey as a basis of comparison? 

There is a clear and distinct difference between someone showing poor judgment because they are young (Sansa, Robb, Jon, etc) and someone who is a morally bankrupt abomination who just so happens to also be young.  

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

13 minutes ago, David Selig said:

So if Sansa lying once and going to Cersei is so reprehensible that it made you really dislike, which characters do you guys like? Pretty much all of them have done way worse stuff...

There is a huge difference between executing and torturing people and lying to get out of trouble.

 

I like lots of character, including "bad" ones... But off the top of my head: Ned, Meera Reed, Syrio Forrel, Barristan, Davos, Oberyn, Lord Mormont, and I'm sure I could go on

 

The difference is that these character do things I like, not just avoid evil... Sansa's actions all kinda suck in my opinion, mostly she's just pitiful and self absorbed

but like I said before that's all opinion, we can have different ones... 

I just don't see how Sansa has improved at all since the clear (to me) acts of betraying her family early on... And frankly I don't expect she will improve, though I bet she has good odds of surviving for some reason

[Lurid Jester]

37 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Ha! Man, am I glad I brought popcorn. Hold on a minute while I fetch another beer... Hey, @Lurid Jester, you drinking? 

I only drink scotch and cheap watered down beer.  So if you have a carona I'll take that.

[Protagoras]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I see the logic, but the conclusion must be weak because the cases are very different - Jaime is an adult attempting the murder of a child, Sansa is a child claiming she doesn't remember something she should remember. 

Secondly, I love symbolic stuff, and I'll think about it. So far I've always gone with the idea that it's similar to 'let the boy die so the man can be born'. Sansa's ladylike dreams have to die so that she can become a well-rounded adult.

Well, that Sansa´s lady persona represents Lady is the other significant alternative. My problem with it is that, after all, Sansa did act very much as a lady in the previous books, but it wasn´t until she tried to reconnect with the North and building the snow castle she reconnected - that is, later in AFfC she has to cross something with Sweetrobin and during that crossing she hears the wind howling which sounds like a wolf. This is where she reconnects to her Stark heritage (something Arya hasn´t done yet).

And the age of Sansa doesn´t really metter. She errored, now she must pay. Just like Jaime did. And quite frankly - losing a pet is far easier than losing your hand.