Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[Winter's Cold]

13 minutes ago, tugela said:

 She might well have been forced to join the faith as a sister, basically social death and a life in poverty.

She would be forced to join the faith for telling the truth about what happened at the Trident? What evidence do you have for this statement?

13 minutes ago, tugela said:

In an absolute monarchy the monarch and his/her heirs are always right, no matter what they do. Sansa understood that. Arya did not.

Yeah, that's why no one rebelled against Aerys and Rhaegar eventually became King. Royals can do whatever they want without any consequences.

Westeros has not been an absolute monarchy since the death of the last dragons. 

[sweetsunray]

Well, Idon't get the insistence that Sansa opted out of making a choice, and remained neutral. In the end, Sansa did not. The moment she understands that Lady will be killed she lies and shouts it was all Arya's fault, after she heard Arya's testimony. Now, I understand her initial attempt to stay out of it by saying "I don't remember". I also understand she's upset over Lady. But in that moment she endangers Arya's life by making it seem as if Joffrey's version of being attacked by Arya unprovoked is the correct version.

I do not think that Sansa's running to the Queen to tell of her father's plans had actual consequences or sped up plans that weren't already in place. It still was a selfish rotten thing to do (she knew she was in the wrong, because she had never felt so naughty before). The most interesting aspect though is the conversation with her and the small council to make her write the letters. The interesting aspect is what Cersei uses to manipulate her. First she claims her father would never perform treason. But as they comment how she has treason's blood and there's talk of breaking the betrothal with Joff, she goes all, "Oh, yeah, my father wanted to marry me to a hedge knight!" (he said a Lord). Nobody is threatening her here with her life, but given the chance to lie and talk ill of her father who is down in a dungeon, she takes it and all because she wants to marry Joff.

She's 11. She's being manipulated. She's been groomed. She suffers from a severe case of dilusional cognitive dissonance. But she is majorly a selfish child at that point, who would thoughtlessly throw her sister and her father under the bus if threatened with the idea of not getting what she wants.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 minute ago, David Selig said:

But Sansa would have to live with Joffrey as her husband. And in a society like Westeros which is all about reputation and honor, humiliating the future king publicly like that is not something he's likely to forget soon.

That is so twisted when you think about it... She's picking an abusive boyfriend over her family.

Clearly as we see Ned is willing to call off the wedding later...  You really think brave Ned would make his daughter marry him if he continued to be such an abusive little shit? Who knows but I doubt it

 

[El Guapo]

10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Or Robert might have just slapped Jeoff on the wrist... Lady might have lived and Sansa might have kept her honor. I don't see any reason to believe that what she said was going to cause any earth shattering changes. I mean Jaime kills Ned's men and wounds him and Robert went hunting... This idea that telling the truth would have been a bad thing is crazy.

Also, there's a special place in hell for those who won't pick a side when push comes to shove

Seriously?  And where exactly do you think Joffrey, or to put it more bluntly, Joffrey would have ordered his  KG would have slapped Sansa? 

[David Selig]

3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

That is so twisted when you think about it... She's picking an abusive boyfriend over her family.

Clearly as we see Ned is willing to call off the wedding later...  You really think brave Ned would make his daughter marry him if he continued to be such an abusive little shit? Who knows but I doubt it

He wasn't just a boyfriend. They were engaged which is a very big deal in Westeros. Sansa was between a rock and a hard place.

Ned was only willing to call off the wedding once he realised Joff isn't Robert's son. Before that the wedding was still on. Even when Robert told Ned straight out that his son was a really messed up kid, Ned made no attempt to break off the engagement.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

2 minutes ago, David Selig said:

He wasn't just a boyfriend. They were engaged which is a very big deal in Westeros. Sansa was between a rock and a hard place.

Ned was only willing to call off the wedding once he realised Joff isn't Robert's son. Before that the wedding was still on. Even when Robert told Ned straight out that his son was a really messed up kid, Ned made no attempt to break off the engagement.

This is wrong. Check the sequence. Ned tells Sansa that the betrothal was a grevious mistake from his part and that he's calling it off because "Joffrey is no Aemon Dragonknight". Sansa responds that she does not want anyone else and, eventually, that Joff is nothing like Robert and there's when Ned realizes the truth of Joffrey's parentage.

 

(I have a feeling we've been through this before...)

[David Selig]

OK, only after Jaime attacked Ned. My bad.

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, David Selig said:

He wasn't just a boyfriend. They were engaged which is a very big deal in Westeros. Sansa was between a rock and a hard place.

Ned was only willing to call off the wedding once he realised Joff isn't Robert's son. Before that the wedding was still on. Even when Robert told Ned straight out that his son was a really messed up kid, Ned made no attempt to break off the engagement.

Actually, Ned intends to call off the betrothal effectively the day he returns from the Small Council meeting and fought with Robert over assassinating Dany. He returns and gives orders so that he and his daughters could leave KL the following day before anyone knows he's gone. I'd say that's pretty much being intent on calling off the btrothal. But LF takes him to see Barra and Jaime attacks his men over Tyrion's kidnapping and he falls and shatters his leg.

And one of main reasons imo that Ned does not call it off for so long is because he knows Sansa wants the betrothal so much. Had Sansa not wanted Joff, he would have indeed tried to break it off far sooner imo.

And that's what I find weird with the arguments on how Sansa was groomed, and feared Joff, and was just being a dutiful betrothed. Sansa WANTED Joff. That's the whole point by having her stalk off to tell Cersei, to show us that Sansa wants Joff. She's not acting out of fear of how he may hurt her. She doesn't even believe he would ever hurt her. She acts and behaves the way she does, because she wants to be his wife. 

[David Selig]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And that's what I find weird with the arguments on how Sansa was groomed, and feared Joff, and was just being a dutiful betrothed. Sansa WANTED Joff. That's the whole point by having her stalk off to tell Cersei, to show us that Sansa wants Joff. She's not acting out of fear of how he may hurt her. She doesn't even believe he would ever hurt her. She acts and behaves the way she does, because she wants to be his wife. 

I didn't say she was "just being a dutiful betrothed". Of course she wanted Joff. That's why she didn't want to make him angry and disappointed at her by humiliating him publicly.

[hitman47]

Sansa is evil person she didnt even let her own husband fuck her.  I hope Tyrion will bring her to justice for her crime

[sweetsunray]

58 minutes ago, David Selig said:

I didn't say she was "just being a dutiful betrothed". Of course she wanted Joff. That's why she didn't want to make him angry and disappointed at her by humiliating him publicly.

Indeed, she did not want to "lose" him, and she was willing to lie for it twice

ETA: I did say "with the arguments" meaning in general and not you in particular in my last paragraph.

[Lurid Jester]

15 minutes ago, hitman47 said:

Sansa is evil person she didnt even let her own husband fuck her.  I hope Tyrion will bring her to justice for her crime

are all of your posts these random semi non sequiturs?

nm. They are. 

[hitman47]

whatever that means

[Philokles]

A few points...

You can come up with a reason why Sansa's actions were actually the right thing to do, I personally disagree, but whatever the case may be, it is irrelevant as it was not her motive. Sansa was simply not trying to do the right or the clever thing even if she did so incidentally; instead her desire for Joffrey overran her judgement.

This idea that she was appeasing Joffrey to stop him holding the events against her when married makes no sense. It is clear that Joffrey was blaming the Starks and going to be majorly resentful to all of them anyway.

[sweetsunray]

22 minutes ago, Horse of Kent said:

A few points...

You can come up with a reason why Sansa's actions were actually the right thing to do, I personally disagree, but whatever the case may be, it is irrelevant as it was not her motive. Sansa was simply not trying to do the right or the clever thing even if she did so incidentally; instead her desire for Joffrey overran her judgement.

This idea that she was appeasing Joffrey to stop him holding the events against her when married makes no sense. It is clear that Joffrey was blaming the Starks and going to be majorly resentful to all of them anyway.

Exactly. Sansa's motivation was not fear for Arya's life, for her own life, for the state of her marriage, for being groomed, for being dutiful, etc. She behaved and made choices and lied even to herself, constructed false memories (later claiming Mycah attacked the prince even, claiming it to Arya who was the sole other witness there) because she wanted to marry Joffrey.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

47 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And that's what I find weird with the arguments on how Sansa was groomed, and feared Joff, and was just being a dutiful betrothed. Sansa WANTED Joff. That's the whole point by having her stalk off to tell Cersei, to show us that Sansa wants Joff. She's not acting out of fear of how he may hurt her. She doesn't even believe he would ever hurt her. She acts and behaves the way she does, because she wants to be his wife. 

All true. Yes, Sansa wanted Joffrey the person, because she had this view of him that was imaginary. Yet Sansa was also hopelessly well-trained - groomed, in fact - to want someone in a lofty social position, that that was the only right and proper aspiration for her - and Joff's position was the loftiest.

It's a society where status is strictly hierarchical. Marrying up as high on the social ladder as it's possible to get is the goal of most noble parents, for their sons as well as their daughters.

It's just that for girls it is the only thing they could aspire to. Boys get to be knights and maesters and stuff. For girls, marriage is the closest thing to a career - or at least an ambition - that a noble girl could have in that society. Marrying up was Sansa's job.

And she scored the biggest fish of them all.

 

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

All true. Yes, Sansa wanted Joffrey the person, because she had this view of him that was imaginary. Yet Sansa was also hopelessly well-trained - groomed, in fact - to want someone in a lofty social position, that that was the only right and proper aspiration for her - and Joff's position was the loftiest.

It's a society where status is strictly hierarchical. Marrying up as high on the social ladder as it's possible to get is the goal of most noble parents, for their sons as well as their daughters.

It's just that for girls it is the only thing they could aspire to. Boys get to be knights and maesters and stuff. For girls, marriage is the closest thing to a career - or at least an ambition - that a noble girl could have in that society. Marrying up was Sansa's job.

And she scored the biggest fish of them all.

 

I don't deny that patriarchy is part of her upbringing, but Cat also notes that Sansa barely needed to be taught that. She was practically born a lady, more than Cat was even. It wasn't so much that Sansa was "well trained" as that her training coincided with her own wants and desires. Sansa didn't want prince Joff because she thought she landed herself the biggest fish. Sansa wanted Joff for Joff. Because the moment that she doesn't get to get her way, she apparently isn't so well trained after all.

 

 

[Chebyshov]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

I don't deny that patriarchy is part of her upbringing, but Cat also notes that Sansa barely needed to be taught that. She was practically born a lady, more than Cat was even. It wasn't so much that Sansa was "well trained" as that her training coincided with her own wants and desires. Sansa didn't want prince Joff because she thought she landed herself the biggest fish. Sansa wanted Joff for Joff. Because the moment that she doesn't get to get her way, she apparently isn't so well trained after all.

Cat is the poster child for internalized patriarchal messaging. Sansa didn't pop out of the womb worshipping maidenhood and chivalry and having idealized notions about princes. She was literally sexually groomed until she came to understand her role and came to view the society in this way, kind of like how Cat's Whispering Woods monologue is all about how she's been forced to wait for her men, and that's her lot in life, and she doesn't even think to question or challenge this. I call this internalization "patriarchy brain" (men have it as well, like Barry's rose-colored Ashara glasses precluding him from even considering female sexual agency), and Martin explores this rather intimately with every character, especially Sansa and Cat.

[sweetsunray]

28 minutes ago, Chebyshov said:

Cat is the poster child for internalized patriarchal messaging. Sansa didn't pop out of the womb worshipping maidenhood and chivalry and having idealized notions about princes. She was literally sexually groomed until she came to understand her role and came to view the society in this way, kind of like how Cat's Whispering Woods monologue is all about how she's been forced to wait for her men, and that's her lot in life, and she doesn't even think to question or challenge this. I call this internalization "patriarchy brain" (men have it as well, like Barry's rose-colored Ashara glasses precluding him from even considering female sexual agency), and Martin explores this rather intimately with every character, especially Sansa and Cat.

I don't believe in 100% nurture. Part of it was plain Sansa's nature, like, preference, etc...

Quote

"Sansa was a lady at three, always so courteous and eager to please. (aCoK, Cat VII)

Her upbringing and her own preferences magnified each other. The argument that it would be solely because of patriarchic uprbinging falls apart with Arya, Brienne, etc, who do not internalize it.

And how much of it is preference becomes clear when her father tells her the betrothal is off. He is her father, the ultimate authority figure in patriarchy. And she disobeys him. Patriarchy, and especially the one that Cat stands for is loyalty to family too. And again when Sansa stands to lose something, she is very willing to throw Arya under the bus for it.

Look, I don't hate Sansa. I don't think she's evil. And I totally think Mordane was full of crap and the worst teacher they could have hired for both their daughters. I think her selfishness and entitlement in aGoT was indulged by her parents and not even outside of the realm of the normal. She's a pre-teen, after all. I don't think she truly fathomed the full possible consequences at all. Since, she did not believe that Joff would ever hurt her father. She desperately tries to avoid cognitive dissonanceat all cost when she's locked up with Jeyne Poole in the room until her father's head gets chopped off. Her reaction after that, of being depressed and contemplating jumping out of a window fully fits the symptoms of someone who is forced to face the cog-dis, forced to face the fact that her beliefs cannot be reconciled with reality at all. It is extremely painful to the brain (quite literally) to have that harsh an awakening.

I think she does what she can within her own limits of the situation and her own perceptions to act far more empathic afterwards, and increasingly with time. I don't believe in self-denial either. A healthy person does look after themselves and their wants too, just not at the possible harm for others. In aGoT the two are not yet in balance imo, and she is indeed willing to self-delude and harm and blame others and innocents for her own wants. 

[Darkstream]

7 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

They like to pretend that Sansa didn't know what the consequences of that action would be. 

So are you asserting that she did know that Ned would be imprisoned and executed?

7 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Either Sansa is a colossal idiot or more likely she knew that the Queen would stop Ned from sending her to Winterfell somehow and she wasn't concerned about what that method would be. It's quite clearly betrayal because she understood and accepted that her father would be negatively affected by her actions.

Well no, she didn't know that Cercei would stop Ned from sending her to Winterfell, but that was what she was hoping for. That was the whole point of going to the Queen. 

She did not understand and accept that her actions would result in her father being imprisoned and executed (which would have happened whether she went to Cercei or not). What she thought was that Cercei would convince Robert to order Ned to let her stay and uphold the commitment of the betrothal.

ETA:

A Game of Thrones - Sansa IV

...The king had been her last hope. The king could command Father to let her stay in King's Landing and marry Prince Joffrey, Sansa knew he could, but the king had always frightened her. He was loud and rough-voiced and drunk as often as not, and he would probably have just sent her back to Lord Eddard, if they even let her see him. So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly … only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor's Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside. "Please," she finished, "you have to let me marry Joffrey, I'll be ever so good a wife to him, you'll see. I'll be a queen just like you, I promise."