Sansa is truly one of the best characters and her development is fascinating

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I'm completely in agreement with you on this.

Septa Mordane drilled the idea of her marital duty into Sansa's brain with all the subtlety of a jackhammer. But Sansa herself picked up that ball and ran with it a long, long way.

 

Wel, and I would say that Septa didn't need to do much drilling.

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, zandru said:

Per sweetsunray,

Sansa's propensity to "self-delude" continues, and even seems to increase, as the books go on. It puts one in mind of Cersei Lannister. Sansa's grooming by her dear "father" Petyr Baelish, and starting to learn the Cersei-like wiles of flirting and seduction, put her on an even more parallel path. Now, show Sansa has come to hate and distrust Baelish (while simultaneously depending on and sort of trusting him), has even threatened his life. Book Sansa doesn't feel this enmity, although at times he makes her uneasy. She doesn't seem to have learned that Petyr strutting all around King's Landing for a decade or more, bragging on how he'd deflowered Ned Stark's wife before Ned married her, or how Baelish dirties any event that he recounts. She does't "see with her eyes" as Arya was taught by Syrio Forel and Sandor Clegane.

And, unlike Cersei, Sansa remains basically passive, letting events flow around her and taking direction from dear Petyr. Show Sansa set up Ramsey's death - book Sansa doesn't seem to have the will to act on her own, where she might be judged.

Less and less though. She throws snow and promises in LF's face in aSoS. She knows he has two faces and doesn't completely trust him. She thinks Lyn might be pretending to be loyal to LF.

I don't know why she would learn about Petyr's bragging about Cat in KL. Initially she was the betrothed to the crown prince, later on she was the daughter of a traitor and still betrothed to the crown prince, beaten by KG in a throne room with nobody helping her. Nobody told Ned Stark either what LF used to brag about. It's not the kind of talk that would be mentioned to Cat's daughter, let alone one who is supposed to be queen, and later the pariah of court. Heck, Tyrion knows his lies, even the one where LF framed him with Cat, but still does nothing. 

She is beginning to watch and to listen. She's not just flirting to seduce like Cersei. She asks questions to check whether Harry would lie, so she can make up her own mind about him. Sansa is not as passive either in KL. She rebels in the only way she can while she's forced into marriage by swordpoint basically - she does not kneel for Tyrion, she plots her escape with Dontos, she rejects the forced-on husband in the only way she can. She is not beguiled by looks and courtesies anymore. She can question it. Sansa is not Arya and never will be, nor does she need to be. From where she started she has come a very long way. Meanwhile Arya had to learn to be more cautious and she uses her femininity too. 

Please do not compare her with Show-Sansa, who was more passive in KL than book-Sansa was and Sansa pinning that doll's head on a spike in the snow castle scene and walking away from LF is imo a foreshadowing of how Sansa will deal with LF once she realizes the full scale of his betrayal to her family.

Regarding "passivity": from aCoK and later... she is a hostage for one, and an abused hostage to boot, a pariah and very isolated. Open rebellion would have gotten her killed. Arya for example would have ended up dead (though she probably was always likely to find a way to escape). And in her hostage situation, Sansa does have a responsibility to herself and a right to stay alive. She is in no position to save anyone else's life, and yet she manages to do that for Dontos (with the help of Sandor). It's not a heroic, big rescue, no. She's not in any position to get big rescues done. People are imo not "obliged" to be the self-sacrificing hero, risk their own lives for another. They are however imo obliged not to risk the lives of others to get what they want or to save themselves. We see Sansa risk the lives of others to get what she wants in aGoT, but she corrects it to keeping herself and others alive where she can after her rude awakening and her hostage situation in aCoK. She makes sure she stays alive, without harming others. She's not a "hero", but she isn't selfish either anymore. 

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

While that may be one of Ned's motives, I'm not sure we have evidence of that.

That's why I wrote 'imo'. We do know he notices how Sansa is the sole one of them feeling at home at court, that she is the sole one who likes it there and is happy. He hates the tourney and didn't really want any of them to go. But Sansa begs and Mordane offers herself as the adult to guard her (and does such a bad job of it that she drops asleep after drinking too much wine, and so Sandor has to take her home). No, there is no direct quote to prove that Ned did not intend to break the betrothal earlier than when he intended to leave KL after resigning his Hand-ship. But we do have evidence he does give in to Sansa's likes. And yup, plenty of avoiding cog-dis with Ned when it comes to Robert.

[Wall Flower]

49 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

That's why I wrote 'imo'. We do know he notices how Sansa is the sole one of them feeling at home at court, that she is the sole one who likes it there and is happy. He hates the tourney and didn't really want any of them to go. But Sansa begs and Mordane offers herself as the adult to guard her (and does such a bad job of it that she drops asleep after drinking too much wine, and so Sandor has to take her home). No, there is no direct quote to prove that Ned did not intend to break the betrothal earlier than when he intended to leave KL after resigning his Hand-ship. But we do have evidence he does give in to Sansa's likes. And yup, plenty of avoiding cog-dis with Ned when it comes to Robert.

Fair enough. It's nice to think that Ned is one of the few parents in Westeros who actually cares about his child's happiness (even if it does go horribly wrong in this instance). I wasn't meaning to criticise btw as I've really enjoyed your posts.

[Protagoras]

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Well I certainly missed a lot. 

Why is it that when discussing Sansa the entire discussion gets stuck on discussing these same two incidents. I'd love to have an actual discussion about her as a character which doesn't just go round and round in circles discussing the trident and going to Cersei. 

There is so much more to her than these two incidences, which both happen at the very beginning of her story and it says a lot that it is those who dislike her character who simply can not move on from book 1, and won't let go of their initial assessment of the character.  I'll be honest while reading AGOT I wasn't enamoured with her, I have an older sister who my parents think the sun shines out the arse of. It was easy to feel irritated by Sansa so perfect. My older siblings called me names, and it would have been very easy to see her and Jeyne's teasing of Arya as totally evil. It is actually just normal childish behaviour. 

And once you get over these things and actually look at the story as a whole, as opposed to myopically focusing on these two early on events you see that Sansa's story is fantastic.  

Taking into account the big picture when examining why she chose to feign memory lapse at the Trident isn't sugar coating her actions, it is seeking to understand the character and her motivations. And while her betrayal of her fathers plans later on was a wicked act, which she herself acknowledges. She in no way understood just how calamitous things would become.  It's funny how so many claim she has a lack of empathy and hold this up as a huge character flaw, yet have no empathy at all for her in these two situations. Simply condemning her, despite another 4 and a bit books of development which is also ignored in favour of going on like a stuck record about these early incidences.

The purpose of the OP was clearly to defend those early mistakes and to talk on how perfect Sansa was already in GoT. We have one small section about future books and the rest is a defence speech. And then you have the nerve blaming the people who react to that speech instead of the one writing it. That, while the OP was "sugarcoated" the real issue according to you is all "we obsessive people that refuse to let this go" despite WE DIDN`T START THE DISCUSSION IN THE FIRST PLACE!

So, if you feel the discussion got stuck - take that up with the OP. Don´t blame the posters who follow suit and discuss what the OP wanted to discuss. Hey - even better, write an own OP of something Sansa-related you want to discuss. An OP which doesn´t start right of the bat questioning the lie, how smart and understandable Sansa acted in GoT, that Sansa had no fault at all in what happened when she went to Cersei and that her naivéte somhow should be enough to forgive her (it isn´t). Then rounding off that people like Arya over Sansa because of misogyny. Instead do an OP where you focus on said development instead of, like the OP, focus on making the case that Sansa was perfect all the time.

So instead of myopically focusing on defending these two early on events maybe Sansa fans should focus on something else. Because, you know - if you (You in this case refers to Sansa fans who can´t stop themself from defending these incidents) open a stinking can of smell it is certainly your fault that it is smelling and it is NOT the task of everyone else to ignore that smell nor to speak of anything but that smell.

Edit: To repeat parts of an earlier post - "So, all Sansa fans. If you don´t want me and others to "attack a 11 year old girl  because we hate women" then maybe you should think really, really carefully next time before you try to argue that said girl was perfect, did no errors and in general think that everything she did are other persons faults. Then you have really given an excuse to all the "haters".

And this is really it - if you name it, you take the blame for it. Its like School - the problem is never the kid who struck back. The problem is the kid who struck first. And just saying violence isn´t the answer is to not put the blame where it belongs. The kid who struck back is justified to strike back REGARDLESS on how bad we think striking someone is.

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Well I certainly missed a lot. 

Why is it that when discussing Sansa the entire discussion gets stuck on discussing these same two incidents. I'd love to have an actual discussion about her as a character which doesn't just go round and round in circles discussing the trident and going to Cersei. 

There is so much more to her than these two incidences, which both happen at the very beginning of her story and it says a lot that it is those who dislike her character who simply can not move on from book 1, and won't let go of their initial assessment of the character.  I'll be honest while reading AGOT I wasn't enamoured with her, I have an older sister who my parents think the sun shines out the arse of. It was easy to feel irritated by Sansa so perfect. My older siblings called me names, and it would have been very easy to see her and Jeyne's teasing of Arya as totally evil. It is actually just normal childish behaviour. 

And once you get over these things and actually look at the story as a whole, as opposed to myopically focusing on these two early on events you see that Sansa's story is fantastic.  

Taking into account the big picture when examining why she chose to feign memory lapse at the Trident isn't sugar coating her actions, it is seeking to understand the character and her motivations. And while her betrayal of her fathers plans later on was a wicked act, which she herself acknowledges. She in no way understood just how calamitous things would become.  It's funny how so many claim she has a lack of empathy and hold this up as a huge character flaw, yet have no empathy at all for her in these two situations. Simply condemning her, despite another 4 and a bit books of development which is also ignored in favour of going on like a stuck record about these early incidences. 

And yes we ought to talk about her development. She changes throughout the books, and learns some sharp lessons. I made a list recently of lessons Sansa has learnt, it's that clear in the book that you can make a bullet pointed list!  We've seen an almost robotically obedient & socially blinkered child develop into a young woman who will coerce, manipulate and bend people to her will (and that isn't a negative, it's a life skill, one which had her father possessed it could have saved his life). Who is capable of discerning people's hidden motives and who is self aware now, so that she understands not only what her own desires are but also that she can achieve them. She feels entitled to her own desires now, where previously she was so brainwashed by her cultural norms that she just accepted as unchangeable the idea that her role was fixed and it's purpose solely to please her future husband (who would be chosen for her.), serve him and provide him with heirs. That her job is to make the relationship happy, make it work, even if that hurts her, find something to love and desire about him, and always put him first.  

We see her throughout the subsequent books questioning her lessons, and coming to her own conclusions. Being placed in the hostage situation actually allows for this development, she is no longer bound by the social rules that she must obey, obviously outwardly she must, and she uses her childhood lessons to great effect here. Her outward docility saves her, every now and again we see a flash of the inner anger and defiance though. When she tells Joffrey that maybe her brother will bring her his head for instance. But the fact she is in her enemies paw gives her the impetus to break from her learnt by wrote rules of being a young maiden. She flirts with vengeance in her thoughts, but never gives over to the dark side of that entirely, she shows kindness when many would rub salt in the wound with Lancel for instance.  

Lots more to say obviously, but alas the school run is calling. 

I agree. Let's talk about Jeyne Poole. Poor Jeyne. 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Can we please refrain from discussing the show character? 
Not only as a courtesy to the people here who try to avoid it, but also because it's really pointless?

[Marylou]

On 22.9.2016 at 0:45 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

Sansa embodies the trad fem pastimes we have spent so many years taking the piss out of, where as Arya embodies the "tomboy" cool girl stereotype I was discussing above.  Thus we tend to place the two at odds, expecting everyone to pick sides, with Arya of course coming out as the cooler of the two.  But I really think it is high time we embraced both. 

 

Now the meat and bones of the story can be discussed. Sansa's story is excellent! so well written, subtle, powerful, and interesting. She; like her siblings and Dany is on a journey of self discovery. The main characters of the series (and yes GRRM now refers to Sansa as one of the big 6) are all essentially on a coming of age arc. Even Tyrion whom is a lot older and of course a grown man is in a way. Because he is so emotionally immature at the start of the series.  It is clear her story and character has immensely altered from his initial concept of her. And I am so glad it has, because her story is fantastic.  It is one of self discovery as I said, but hers is one so often quietly ignored. She is a young girl schooled and groomed to be the perfect, docile, obedient wife. She has been raised on a diet of love stories, pretty gowns, tales of true love and chivalry, golden gilded lies designed to cow her into acceptance of what is essentially a life of being sold off to some bloke to breed heirs and broker political advantage for her family. It isn't too dissimilar to real world conditioning that girls receive to woo them into marriage. Secular society is of course not as bad anymore but as someone who grew up in a coercive religion, I see a lot of parallels. 

 

 

Wow, just wow. I LOVE your post! I am a gal quite like you - I love horror movies, boxing, metal music and I speak up for myself - but I completely freak out over kittens, pink velvet slippers and lace curtains. I  am an avid feminist, but I harldy tell because of the instant bashing. 

Your remark of Sansa being bashed for being girly is spot on. and You are so utterly right: We have to stop putting the girls into drawers, we have to embrace them for who they are and how the were raised. And I hated Sansa on my first read, but came to love her on the re-reads. Her development is a very quiet one, and a lot of it is subtle and on the inside. But the girl hadn't time to catch her breath after Ned's death, and I felt for her. She was the most naive and all alone.  and compared to her siblings/parents, her mistakes were minor (alright, except for snitching Ned's plan to Cersei - I belive Sansa was still in denial that the situation was dangerous and the stories about lords and ladies are garbage -  she states herself in AFFC that she doesn't  believe in any of these stories any more and even sides with the Hound)

I love her arc, and I believe she will take her fate in her own hands from now on. Her armour is her courtesy, her skin is steel, and she is no girl any more, she became bastard brave, as she states herself. Her story is one of the most interesting to me. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

15 minutes ago, Marylou said:

Wow, just wow. I LOVE your post! I am a gal quite like you - I love horror movies, boxing, metal music and I speak up for myself - but I completely freak out over kittens, pink velvet slippers and lace curtains. I  am an avid feminist, but I harldy tell because of the instant bashing. 

Your remark of Sansa being bashed for being girly is spot on. and You are so utterly right: We have to stop putting the girls into drawers, we have to embrace them for who they are and how the were raised. And I hated Sansa on my first read, but came to love her on the re-reads. Her development is a very quiet one, and a lot of it is subtle and on the inside. But the girl hadn't time to catch her breath after Ned's death, and I felt for her. She was the most naive and all alone.  and compared to her siblings/parents, her mistakes were minor. 

I love her arc, and I believe she will take her fate in her own hands from now on. Her armour is her courtesy, her skin is steel, and she is no girl any more, she became bastard brave, as she states herself. Her story is one of the most interesting to me. 

This is what I don't understand... Im all for a good strong female character, but Sansa is categorically a bad person! It's not about gender, it's about morals... She's horrible to her bastard brother, betrays her family, rarely if ever thinks of anyone but herself, doesn't seemed concerned with the fate of childhood "friend" Jeyne Poole in the least, the list goes on...

She's selfish, petty, and not very bright... Just an example from above, while I realize it's for the readers benefit, if you are living in the court of a sickly child and don't know who the heir is you're an oblivious idiot.

In fact she shares so much with Cersei (besides the incest, and Cersei is hardened at this point) that I really don't understand how you could like one and not the other...

So still, for this whole thread I've been asking the same thing... Is there a single example of her growth any of her admirers can come up with? Not an example of her acting like a proper lady, or feeling bad for someone... But an action that shows she's grown up from the horrible little brat she was? Any evidence of a willingness to sacrifice for others?

Honestly, we are watching how a Cersei gets made here and there are some people sitting around applauding!

[Marylou]

Well, if the very specific arguments, explanations and quotes didn't  help you to understand, nothing I say will help doing so. 

Sansa is not a bad person. The thing is, you simply don't think it through and you keep on turning the blind eye on the very detailed explanations you were given during this thread.  But that is okay, it is the way you think, but for me, your argumentation is not enough to admit myself in a further discussion with you.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, Marylou said:

Well, if the very specific arguments, explanations and quotes didn't  help you to understand, nothing I say will help doing so. 

Sansa is not a bad person. The thing is, you simply don't think it through and you keep on turning the blind eye on the very detailed explanations you were given during this thread.  But that is okay, it is the way you think, but for me, your argumentation is not enough to admit myself in a further discussion with you.

Wait, the "very specific" reasoning was what? 

She panicked and pretended to forget when put in a hard situation?

She gave away her father's plans when she didn't like them?

Doesnt seem terribly bothered by losing people close to her like Jeyne Poole, Dontos, or any of her household guard?

Then people keep saying to look to her later books and the development, but I don't see it, so I ask for examples and you tell me it's been explained? I know rational discourse is tough for everyone, myself included, but it's like I read a different series... Sorry if I'm spoiling your mental image of Sansa I guess 

She's currently poisoning her cousin so she can marry his heir! 

[Darksnider05]

 

17 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Wait, the "very specific" reasoning was what? 

She panicked and pretended to forget when put in a hard situation?

She gave away her father's plans when she didn't like them?

Doesnt seem terribly bothered by losing people close to her like Jeyne Poole, Dontos, or any of her household guard?

Then people keep saying to look to her later books and the development, but I don't see it, so I ask for examples and you tell me it's been explained? I know rational discourse is tough for everyone, myself included, but it's like I read a different series... Sorry if I'm spoiling your mental image of Sansa I guess 

She's currently poisoning her cousin so she can marry his heir! 

I really doubt your going to get quotes showing what your asking for. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

 

I really doubt your going to get quotes showing what your asking for. 

Because they don't exist...

[Marylou]

Well for the record: I think the Starks gained nothing from being honorable. They are by far the house that made  utterly crap moron decisions, which got the majority of them killed. 

Sansa is the only Stark I believe has  the potential to become a worthy player in  the game of thrones.  

[LiveFirstDieLater]

11 minutes ago, Marylou said:

Well for the record: I think the Starks gained nothing from being honorable. They are by far the house that made  utterly crap moron decisions, which got the majority of them killed. 

Sansa is the only Stark I believe has  the potential to become a worthy player in  the game of thrones.  

That's nice, but I'm not sure how it's relevant... I mean Ned explicitly refused to play, and didn't take the throne when he had the chance. You know who does embrace the game, Cersei... And I'd agree that Sansa is much more like Cersei than Ned... Aka power hungry, self absorbed, and morally bankrupt

The whole idea that who rules the kingdom is a "game" is an idea perpetuated by selfish characters like Cersei and LF... Of course the whole point is that it isn't just a game, people suffer... 

The practical thing and the "right" thing are often different... Personal gain and the greater good are often at odds

[Runaway Penguin]

She doesn't really learn the lessons. That's the point probably to me - she still pins her hopes to the one man and does his bidding. and she still does not accept responsibility and shifts blame. And trusts the wrong party based on outwards appearance. Heck, the only reason she got married to Tyrion was because she blabbed to Dontos about the Tyrell plan - one would say that after helping her father to get killed (and make no mistake, Cersei might have been getting ready to make a move, but she might not have known about girls being sent away) she would learn to make her mouth shut.

 

If she had such an understanding of the Game, she would also guess that actually coming forth in Marillion's trial and outing Littlefinger as both murderer of Lysa Arryn, as her lover and as the cause for Jon Arryn's death and even instigator of Joffrey's poisoning would definitely not get her extradited back to King's Landing. If anything, the Lords of Vale were spoiling for a fight besides Tullys in the Riverlands - so I very much doubt that Catelyn Tully's daughter would have much to fear apart from marriage proposals. Moreover in ideal setting of isolated Eyrie. However... She did not do it and went with LF's intrigue.

[kimim]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Im all for a good strong female character, but Sansa is categorically a bad person! It's not about gender, it's about morals... She's horrible to her bastard brother, betrays her family, rarely if ever thinks of anyone but herself, doesn't seemed concerned with the fate of childhood "friend" Jeyne Poole in the least, the list goes on...

In a world of Cersei, Littlefinger, Gregor, and Ramsay, I don't think you can call Sansa "categorically a bad person." I've never understood the need to glamorize Sansa by making her either a suffering saint or a villain.

Sansa is the selfish, spoiled, imaginative daughter of a powerful lord. She knows exactly who she is, and she accepts her role: She will marry a lord, and become the lady of an estate. Within those parameters, she has ambitions, and wants to "better" herself through a marriage to a southern lord who could offer her a more glamorous life than a northern lord could.

She is offered The Brave Prince with the Golden Locks who will one day become king. This is Sansa's dream marriage. It's so ideal for her, fits the romances she loves so well, that she doesn't wake up to the real Joffrey until he beheads her daddy. When she goes to Cersei, she doesn't know what she's doing. It's pre-pubescent rebellion. Daddy is taking away the thing Sansa wants most; it's like daddy's taking away her winning lottery ticket, or her contract with a major modeling studio, and taking her back to their ranch in North Dakota. She has no clue that there will be life-death consequences.

After that, she's into survival mode, but she's still the Sansa of Game. Of course she doesn't care about Jeyne. She was, and is selfish, and Jeyne doesn't matter to her survival. Married to Tyrion, she still judges him by his name and appearance. She is not a stupid person; Littlefinger finds it easy to train her, as the training fits her personality. She has little empathy for those who are socially inferior to her, which means she can play politics, start wars, and to hell with how such things will affect the commoners. She understands the behavior of the nobility, which means she can manipulate them. Of the Stark kids, she's the only one who has such qualities. And none of that means she's a villain, or a terrible person. She's grey, like everyone else.

[sweetsunray]

 

50 minutes ago, Runaway Penguin said:

If she had such an understanding of the Game, she would also guess that actually coming forth in Marillion's trial and outing Littlefinger as both murderer of Lysa Arryn, as her lover and as the cause for Jon Arryn's death and even instigator of Joffrey's poisoning would definitely not get her extradited back to King's Landing. If anything, the Lords of Vale were spoiling for a fight besides Tullys in the Riverlands - so I very much doubt that Catelyn Tully's daughter would have much to fear apart from marriage proposals. Moreover in ideal setting of isolated Eyrie. However... She did not do it and went with LF's intrigue.

Euhm, the chapter where Sansa goes along with the lie about Marillion comes well before the one with the Lords Declarant. Nestor Royce is not Bronze Yohn Royce, and shows he's willing to look away or play the game for his own ambitions, when he accepts the deed to the Gates of the Moon making him Lord of it, instead of just the steward. He tried to get his widowed daughter betrothed to Harry the Heir as well. Nestor Royce is of the lesser branch of the Royces... and possibly is comparable to scheming Arnolf Karstark more like.

Though my modern senses feel icky that Marillion was punished for a crime he did not do, he also was an accomplice and/or petrator of crimes he was never punished for. The guy was a rapist who then had his rape victims sacked or killed. And Sansa was sure of both, since he attempted to rape her and was singing merrily with glee as Lysa tried to drag her to the moon door and throw her out. He's not the guy worth unmasking yourself for to a man with motives and ambitions as shady as Littlefinger. Better the enemy you know than the enemy you don't. At least Littlefinger has no interest of delivering her to King's Landing and be named the new LP of the Vale. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I agree. Let's talk about Jeyne Poole. Poor Jeyne. 

Yes! Absolutely. I think Jeyne will be a huge turning point for Sansa. I don't have time for a huge post right now. But basically someone posted a quote above from early on, where Sansa thinks that she misses Jeyne, this is after initially being pleased she no longer has to listen to her tears.. And after that we don't get any worry or concern, but we do get her remembering their childhood from time to time. And Sansa does indeed love her best friend. That much is clear. What is significant in it's absence though is her asking LF about her fate, we know she heard Cersei say Jeyne would be taken to his chambers, and he would find a place for her. Yet she doesn't seem to have asked him. I think deep down she kinda suspects something unpleasant happened to Jeyne. And is afraid to ask. She isn't dim, and she knows Peytr is capable of disposing of people he no longer has use of (Dontos) I actually think it will be discovering what he did to Jeyne which triggers Sansa to have him beheaded (or indeed execute him herself perhaps) Jeyne is headed to Jon at the wall currently, and Jon eventually once he is healed or resurrected or whatever will I think head to Winterfell, even though his initial reason was to take Arya from Ramsey, discovering that it was Jeyne who was married to the bastard bolton won't necessarily mean he abandons that purpose. I think a general fall back from the wall will become essential at some point. Sansa we know wishes to return home, and the culmination of her Vale story line will likely see her headed there too. I think all roads lead to the same castle basically, and we will see all the Starks head there( I actually think Bran is facilitating this too through his ability to influence). Once she learns or indeed see's first hand what happened when she is reunited with Jeyne. Then shit will hit the fan for LF.  I think the Snow castle scene was foreshadowing and he will be important or at least his money and connections will be, in the actual re build of WF, but that she'll turn on him. I know there is a lot to be said for the argument he will try to force her into sexual activity, but I think Jeyne is a ticking bomb when it comes to these two. 

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Doesnt seem terribly bothered by losing people close to her like Jeyne Poole, Dontos, or any of her household guard?

Agreed on Jeyne Poole. She was relieved that Jeyne Poole was gone, who told her horrible things she did not want to believe and block out of her mind.

As for Dontos:

 

Quote

 

It happened so quickly neither Dontos nor Sansa had time to cry out. When it was done, Lothor Brune tossed the torch down on top of the corpse. The little boat was blazing fiercely as the galley moved away.

"You killed him." Clutching the rail, Sansa turned away and retched. (aSoS, Sansa V)

 

 

If we compare this with her ability to watch Ser Hugh dying unperturbed in aGoT, then obviously Sansa is bothered by it, a lot. This time it makes her sick. It's not the first time Sansa has seen people die: Ser Hugh, Stannis' men that remained faithful, and so on. Apparently she can "stomach" all those (pun intended), but the moment Dontos dies, she retches. Clearly, his death does affect her so much that she has an instant physical response to it.

 

I agree that Sansa is not an "empath" (people with a very high ability of empathy). She actually falls more in the range of average empathy. It feels as if affective empathy is an either/or thing, but it is actually scaled, from zero (personality disordered) to real lot and everything in between. High empaths are altruistically inclined and feel empathy for strangers they never met before. But a large set of people only feel affective empathy for those they know and are close to - family and friends - but nobody beyond that really. Sansa falls in that me-and-mine category imo. The paragraph about Ser Hugh's death highlights the mindset and emotionality of me-and-mine empathy.

 

Quote

Jeyne Poole wept so hysterically that Septa Mordane finally took her off to regain her composure, but Sansa sat with her hands folded in her lap, watching with a strange fascination. She had never seen a man die before. She ought to be crying too, she thought, but the tears would not come. Perhaps she had used up all her tears for Lady and Bran. It would be different if it had been Jory or Ser Rodrik or Father, she told herself. The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it. (aGoT, Sansa II)

She thinks the Kingslayer a monster for having killed Jory, but cannot believe that Joff had anything to do with it.

Cersei's empathy is close to zero: it's all "me".