The Grey Wolf

Which Targaryen kings are you most interested in learning more about in Fire & Blood?

62 posts in this topic

45 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Queens are welcome as well. :D...

A whole coffee-table-sized companion book and we don't even know the fates of half the consorts! Not to mention the Blackfyres...

I have been re-listening to the World book a lot recently and have thought the same thing every time! I know to some (lookin' at you Maegor) their consorts were disposable, but not all of them. :cheers:

And the Blackfyres. Sheesh, they are only the other half of the Targs and had an impact on Westeros.

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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14 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I have been re-listening to the World book a lot recently and have thought the same thing every time! I know to some (lookin' at you Maelys) their consorts were disposable, but not all of them. :cheers:

And the Blackfyres. Sheesh, they are only the other half of the Targs and had an impact on Westeros.

I don't think Maelys had a consort but that's just what I think.

And yeah GRRM has a (unintentional I hope) predilection for shoving to the side important or potentially interesting female characters. Look at the books for example.

The mother of Cat, Edmure, and Lysa: dead. The mother of the Greyjoy brothers: dead and unnamed. Joanna Lannister: dead. Rhaelle Targaryen: dead. Lyarra Stark: dead. Mellario of Norvos: Absent. Mother of Doran, Oberyn, and Elia: Dead and unnamed. Cassana Estermont: Dead. Brienne's mother: Dead. Lyanna Stark: Dead.  

To make it worse a number of these (including the mothers of Tyrion, Dany, and probably Jon) all died the same way: in childbirth.

Some really cool fans came up with a term for it: The Dead Ladies Society.

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10 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I don't think Maelys had a consort but that's just what I think.

And yeah GRRM has a (unintentional I hope) predilection for shoving to the side important or potentially interesting female characters. Look at the books for example.

The mother of Cat, Edmure, and Lysa: dead. The mother of the Greyjoy brothers: dead and unnamed. Joanna Lannister: dead. Rhaelle Targaryen: dead. Lyarra Stark: dead. Mellario of Norvos: Absent. Mother of Doran, Oberyn, and Elia: Dead and unnamed. Cassana Estermont: Dead. Brienne's mother: Dead. Lyanna Stark: Dead.  

To make it worse a number of these (including the mothers of Tyrion, Dany, and probably Jon) all died the same way: in childbirth.

Some really cool fans came up with a term for it: The Dead Ladies Society.

Shoot. I meant Maegor! :blushing: That's what I get by listening to the books, then hopping on to a few different threads at the same time. I got my M's mixed up.

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44 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Shoot. I meant Maegor! :blushing: That's what I get by listening to the books, then hopping on to a few different threads at the same time. I got my M's mixed up.

Np :D

While on the subject of Maegor I think his relationship with his first three wives is actually quite interesting.

In the case of Ceryse he was married to her for 14 years before he ended their relationship and was 13 when it started, whereas she was in her 20s, which is really unusual. I wonder what the two thought of each other and how they got along. Considering how long Maegor stayed faithful to her despite their marriage being barren I wouldn't be surprised if Maegor, in his own way, was fond of her at least.

Alys on the other hand was clearly about love (and Maegor understandably snapping due to his lack of children) considering that marrying her was not only risky but cost Maegor dearly at a time when he had everything, power, position, prestige, etc.

The same with Tyanna in that marrying her compounded his problems with the faith for no real benefit in exchange. I honestly wonder what series of events led her to "confess" to him and whether or not that played a part in his mental breakdown in 48 AC.  

Anyway, on the Blackfyres:

I hope Haegon I and Daemon III turn out to be interesting (and sympathetic) characters in their own right rather than just tools of Bittersteel because that would make the Third and Fourth Blackfyre Rebellions much more interesting by making us choose between supporting the Targaryens we already know and love (such as Maekar, Egg, and Bloodraven) and supporting the Blackfyres because their claimant is actually more worthy to be king.

I want to see at least one insane Blackfyre.

I want more on poor Aenys, his personality, why he betrayed the rest of the Blackfyres, and how much Blackfyre sympathy remained after the Third Rebellion. Seriously, can you imagine what was going through his mind as he was being dragged to his death when he had come in peace and been granted safe passage by the same Hand he was being told had ordered his death?

I think Maelys is an under-appreciated badass. He not only led a lightning-quick counterattack at the beginning of the war, personally slaying the chief commander of the Westerosi forces, Ormund Baratheon, but he also somehow managed to get a group of pirates, mercenaries, and one merchant prince to band together and actually hold strong without any one of them ever betraying or backing out of the deal. Also, his picture in TWOIAF is cool. Just look at that flail. 

More on Blackfyre marriages, in-fighting, intrigue, and their relationship to Tyrosh would be nice too. Like did the Targaryens and the Blackfyres back rival Archons during the elections (judging by the unprecedented marriage of Kiera of Tyrosh to no less than two princes)? Oh, and how Rohanne got along with Bittersteel and what she thought of Westeros would be great to know also.

On Targaryen queens:

One, I hope a lot of the ones we don't know much about did not simply die in childbirth.

Two, I hope they actually did stuff besides have children like Rhaenys, Visenya, Alyssa, and Alysanne.

Three, please, please let some of them have lived past their husbands and not predeceased them.  

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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20 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Np :D

While on the subject of Maegor I think his relationship with his first three wives is actually quite interesting.

In the case of Ceryse he was married to her for 14 years before he ended their relationship and was 13 when it started, whereas she was in her 20s, which is really unusual. I wonder what the two thought of each other and how they got along. Considering how long Maegor stayed faithful to her despite their marriage being barren I wouldn't be surprised if Maegor, in his own way, was fond of her at least.

 

 I agree that this most probably played a part in his future cruelty.

20 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I hope Haegon I and Daemon III turn out to be interesting (and sympathetic) characters in their own right rather than just tools of Bittersteel because that would make the Third and Fourth Blackfyre Rebellions much more interesting by making us choose between supporting the Targaryens we already know and love (such as Maekar, Egg, and Bloodraven) and supporting the Blackfyres because their claimant is actually more worthy to be king.

I want to see at least one insane Blackfyre.

These are good points and ones I have recently been thinking about because, as far as the recent story goes, I *think* I am slooowly becoming an Aegon = Blackfyre-returning-to-Westeros-and-Bloodraven-is-not-happy-about-that thinker. I am a huge Brynden Rivers fan while he lived (in all of his shades of grey) and with him and his current time in the tree. But I like a little moral struggle in my stories.

20 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I

On Targaryen queens:

One, I hope a lot of the ones we don't know much about did not simply die in childbirth.

Two, I hope they actually did stuff besides have children like Rhaenys, Visenya, Alyssa, and Alysanne.

Three, please, please let some of them have lived past their husbands and not predeceased them.  

There may be a little development in George's thinking from when he started this series 25ish years ago and to now. We know his "gardener" comments and at Balticon a few months ago he called himself a "sex positive feminist", so I think he may have more on the queens and them doing something in history. That would be cool. I love the way he writes the wit of his females in charge.

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On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 9:42 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

 I agree that this most probably played a part in his future cruelty.

These are good points and ones I have recently been thinking about because, as far as the recent story goes, I *think* I am slooowly becoming an Aegon = Blackfyre-returning-to-Westeros-and-Bloodraven-is-not-happy-about-that thinker. I am a huge Brynden Rivers fan while he lived (in all of his shades of grey) and with him and his current time in the tree. But I like a little moral struggle in my stories.

There may be a little development in George's thinking from when he started this series 25ish years ago and to now. We know his "gardener" comments and at Balticon a few months ago he called himself a "sex positive feminist", so I think he may have more on the queens and them doing something in history. That would be cool. I love the way he writes the wit of his females in charge.

I'm a little confused. Are you saying Maegor's cruelty can possibly be partially attributed to Ceryse's influence? Or are you saying he may have been cruel to her because he had an emotional connection to her?

Also, I agree. Having the Blackfyre Pretenders be sympathetic and have the potential to be great kings would really provide readers with a great moral struggle as well as good material for discussion and debate.

And yeah I hope GRRM makes the queens as active and interesting as the kings because TWOIAF really lacked in that regard (with the exceptions of Rhaenys, Alysanne, and my favorite female Targaryen, Visenya).

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I want to know more about Rhaenys and Visenya

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I wanna learn about the entire Royal Family.From what I've read about The Dance Of Dragons it was a mess.But these wars of succession always were.

Edited by terminusprime

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I think a more detailed description about the reign of Jahaerys I, Viserys I, Daeron the Good, Baelor and Aegon V would be nice and the whole concept and occurrence of the Dance of Dragons, the Blackfyre Rebellions and Daeron's Conquest of Dorne might be in order.

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I don't know if anyone in this thread has seen this video but this part of the interview gives a few clues to Fire and Blood. In the interview, which is to promote the *new* World book, George refers to F&B as the GRRMrillion. I posted the interview at the start of the question, but give it a minute and he gets the the F&B part of his answer. This really renewed my excitement for this book.

By the way, some of the questions in this interview are what we have heard 100 times, but some questions and answers are pretty good.

 

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On 10/13/2016 at 7:52 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

I'm a little confused. Are you saying Maegor's cruelty can possibly be partially attributed to Ceryse's influence? Or are you saying he may have been cruel to her because he had an emotional connection to her?

Also, I agree. Having the Blackfyre Pretenders be sympathetic and have the potential to be great kings would really provide readers with a great moral struggle as well as good material for discussion and debate.

And yeah I hope GRRM makes the queens as active and interesting as the kings because TWOIAF really lacked in that regard (with the exceptions of Rhaenys, Alysanne, and my favorite female Targaryen, Visenya).

Sorry, I missed this response to me somehow???
I think there could have been a chance that Maegor actually loved  Ceryse, but between his competition to have heirs like his brother, his mother's death, Ceryse being so young, and Maegor having a hard time getting a son/children, and the Faith constantly pushing in to the King's rule, I think he took out his frustrations on Ceryse because of it. The old adage of "you always hurt the ones you love," type of thing. Just a thought... but I am sure I am way off. I'll admit that ahead of time:D

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59 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Sorry, I missed this response to me somehow???
I think there could have been a chance that Maegor actually loved  Ceryse, but between his competition to have heirs like his brother, his mother's death, Ceryse being so young, and Maegor having a hard time getting a son/children, and the Faith constantly pushing in to the King's rule, I think he took out his frustrations on Ceryse because of it. The old adage of "you always hurt the ones you love," type of thing. Just a thought... but I am sure I am way off. I'll admit that ahead of time:D

Np.

Ceryse was twenty-three when they married, ten years his elder actually, so no doubt she exerted significant influence on him during their marriage and if Maegor's boast that he consummated the marriage a dozen times the night of the wedding alone is any indication he must have at least been physically attracted to her. Thus, it is possible he was abusive to her as over the years their marriage proved barren in contrast to that of Aenys's but I doubt that since his father, half-brother, mother, and the High Septon would not have tolerated that. Plus, Maegor isn't noted to have been abusive to any of his wives in particular and if he had been there wouldn't have been a reason for it not to go down in the history books. No one was interested in white-washing Maegor or writing an objective view of him. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the problems the Maesters have with regards to his reign is how much of the accounts (and atrocities recorded within them) are true and how much is actually slander designed to make Jaehaerys and the line of Rhaenys as a whole look better.

Also, he set Ceryse aside for Alys late in Aenys's reign before his mother died. 

Btw, does anyone else REALLY want to read Maegor's eulogy for his father, Aegon I the Conqueror?

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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Aegon! (The youngest brother of King Viserys and Prince Daemon) Like where was this guy? did he die? how did he die? Where did he go?

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Since I think that we will learn more about  Daeron II, the Blackfyre rebellions, the Summerhall tragedy and the reign of Aerys in the Dunk & Egg novellas and ASOIAF respectively, I am most interested in the End of the Dragons and the events that led to it. This would mean the Kings: Jahaerys, Viserys, Aegon II and especially Aegon III.

Quote

Aegon! (The youngest brother of King Viserys and Prince Daemon) Like where was this guy? did he die? how did he die? Where did he go?

Valar morghulis

Edited by Bironic

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Posted (edited)

Ouuuu....nice question lets see:huh:

The answer is Aegon V( or Egg)

My reason is very simple. I have read the Dunk and Egg novellas and i fell  in love with that boy so i would like  to know more about his reign.

Spoiler

Also lets not forget that in AWOIAF there was a great mystery about the tragedy of Summerhall.It is hinted that something happend ....something that had been kept burried and we dont know!

Well me and my curious self want to know what happened that day that GRRM hasnt told us yet.:ph34r:

 Aside from Egg i would like to know more about Aegon the unworthy.

There were so many intresting Targaryens before and after his reign like Daeron,Daena,Eleana,Aemon,Naerys , Baelor and Daemon ofcourse.

So by learning more about him you could learn more about the rest as well .

That would be sweet!

Sorry for mistakes English is not my mother tongue 

Edited by Valedina

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Reading The World of Ice and Fire, my favorite aspect of the world-building is definitely the conjectures of timing and relationship between the various houses of Westeros.

 

If I had to state my interest in Fire and Blood, it would be the relationship and leadership of the various houses during the reigns of certain kings and how they marry into each other. I am especially interested in the relationship between the Velaryons and the Targaryens before Aegon I. His mother is apparently Targaryen on her mother's side, which most likely means that she was likely an aunt of Aerion of Dragonstone. Just what happened to all the missing Targaryens throughout history and are their anymore dragonseed houses running around Westeros?

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We will learn a lot about Aenys and Maegor in the next anthology The Songs of the Dragons

I want to know more about Jaehaerys, the Old King and Queen Alysanne, their travels through the realm, the time they visited the North and Alysanne went to the Wall.

Another king I want to know more about is the second Jaehaerys, his reign was short, but it was during his reign the War of the Ninepenny Kings happened, it would be cool to see the battles and Barristan fighting Maelys in the Stepstones.

Aegon V reign we will probably see it during Dunk and Egg, as the novellas will end during the tragedy of Summerhall (his death).

Viserys II during the reigns of Daeron and Baelor, acting as hand, that would be great to see.

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I would love to know more about Maekar's reign.  He ruled for near a decade and if i remember correctly, the only real thing mentioned about his reign is that it ended with the Peake Uprising... Would love to know more about that Uprising too due to the potential Blackfyre connections. 

Additionally, I would like to know what happen to Maegor (Aerion's son), only mention is that they passed him over and then not a peep.

It would be cool to actually flesh out the Blackfyres as well, more detail on Haegon, what happened to Daemon II ultimately, the names of Daemon I's youngest 2 sons and what they did with themselves, etc.

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None of them, imho. We learn a great base line of all the Targs in WoIaF. Id much rather have a Valyrian Chronicles which tells tales of the 100-200 years leading up to the Doom. Now THATS something to look into. By the time DoS and the Hedge Knight books comes, im going to have enough of Targ this and Targ that. They were low teir dragonlords when they left Valyria, so as great as they were in westeros, they wernt really the Stark/Lannister/Arryns of Valyria. More like the Bracken/Yronwoods.

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