Reforming police, the Blue Wall of Silence

[DireWolfSpirit]

8 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I just saw the murder of Philando on a MSNBC report. I'm stunned that a jury would let this cop walk after viewing the dashcam video clearly showing an unjustified execution by the cop, with a child and another adult sitting in the vehicle while the cop unloads his entire magazine into the vehicle. I just cannot believe anyone could see that video and call it anything other than murder.

I see where Trevor Noah had the same sickening feeling from the video and same reaction I had, condemning the jurors- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trevor-noah-video-of-cop-shooting-philando-castile-broke-me_us_594b95b3e4b01cdedf00a1ab?n0k&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Noah is off the mark I think, by saying suggesting anyone is saying it's ok to shoot someone because you are afraid due to their race.

Now I'm sickened by the video too. But it doesn't actually show what happened. The cop suspected this guy could have been a bank robbery suspect, the car smelt heavily of drugs, he admitted he had a gun and then ignored orders to not go for it repeatedly. 

The cop was afraid because someone who may have been dangerous was reaching for a gun and could have shot him. He almost certainly made the wrong decision but I wouldn't describe it as murder , especially not in a situation where everyone has guns. If a jury didn't convict him I don't think everyone should be calling foul, like they do in most of these situations 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Noah is off the mark I think, by saying suggesting anyone is saying it's ok to shoot someone because you are afraid due to their race.

Now I'm sickened by the video too. But it doesn't actually show what happened. The cop suspected this guy could have been a bank robbery suspect, the car smelt heavily of drugs, he admitted he had a gun and then ignored orders to not go for it repeatedly. 

The cop was afraid because someone who may have been dangerous was reaching for a gun and could have shot him. He almost certainly made the wrong decision but I wouldn't describe it as murder , especially not in a situation where everyone has guns. If a jury didn't convict him I don't think everyone should be calling foul, like they do in most of these situations 

Jon,
 

I've watched the video.  The officer went from "Don't reach for it" to unloading on Mr. Philando in 4 seconds.  4 seconds.  Just because the officer was frightened doesn't make the fear the officer felt "reasonable".  Further, Mr. Philando didn't deserve to die because he may have misheard the officer's instructions.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

On 6/19/2017 at 8:45 AM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Here's an interesting New Yorker article on the problem of Police Unions:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/09/19/why-are-police-unions-blocking-reform

From the article:
 

 

I'm so torn on this, Scot. On the one hand, I'd agree, this is a union that's allowing awful things to happen. But in our current culture, if we go after one union--I fear that's opening the floodgate to go after all unions. Unions are a good thing. They don't have the right to impose regulations that allow criminal behavior from their members. 

Though I was just thinking of this yesterday when driving to work. The line from the article you posted: "And though conservatives regularly castigate public-sector unions as parasites, they typically exempt the police." This drives me up the wall. As a teacher, I see teachers' unions often demonized by the right (when I've seen the good they do) for protecting bad teachers. As if that's all they do. Or as if most of them even do that. The right will pick and choose examples and say this is true of all unions. But police unions? Never do we hear a peep about them. 

I suppose the police are a special case, and a special case can be made about their union as the article notes. We don't see unions in the military after all, and the police have turned themselves into a military force.

Edit: I've lost all hope after the acquittal in the Castile murder. It is okay for cops to shoot people. Where is the outrage from other Americans?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

I'm so torn on this, Scot. On the one hand, I'd agree, this is a union that's allowing awful things to happen. But in our current culture, if we go after one union--I fear that's opening the floodgate to go after all unions. Unions are a good thing. They don't have the right to impose regulations that allow criminal behavior from their members. 

Though I was just thinking of this yesterday when driving to work. The line from the article you posted: "And though conservatives regularly castigate public-sector unions as parasites, they typically exempt the police." This drives me up the wall. As a teacher, I see teachers' unions often demonized by the right (when I've seen the good they do) for protecting bad teachers. As if that's all they do. Or as if most of them even do that. The right will pick and choose examples and say this is true of all unions. But police unions? Never do we hear a peep about them. 

I suppose the police are a special case, and a special case can be made about their union as the article notes. We don't see unions in the military after all, and the police have turned themselves into a military force.

Edit: I've lost all hope after the acquittal in the Castile murder. It is okay for cops to shoot people. Where is the outrage from other Americans?

I sincerely see Police Unions as a special case.  What other Union expressly acts to make it more difficult to punish or control people who have killed others who are not in their Unions?

[DireWolfSpirit]

4 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

I'm so torn on this, Scot. On the one hand, I'd agree, this is a union that's allowing awful things to happen. But in our current culture, if we go after one union--I fear that's opening the floodgate to go after all unions. Unions are a good thing. They don't have the right to impose regulations that allow criminal behavior from their members. 

Though I was just thinking of this yesterday when driving to work. The line from the article you posted: "And though conservatives regularly castigate public-sector unions as parasites, they typically exempt the police." This drives me up the wall. As a teacher, I see teachers' unions often demonized by the right (when I've seen the good they do) for protecting bad teachers. As if that's all they do. Or as if most of them even do that. The right will pick and choose examples and say this is true of all unions. But police unions? Never do we hear a peep about them. 

I suppose the police are a special case, and a special case can be made about their union as the article notes. We don't see unions in the military after all, and the police have turned themselves into a military force.

Edit: I've lost all hope after the acquittal in the Castile murder. It is okay for cops to shoot people. Where is the outrage from other Americans?

I agree with all of this. 

1. I'm sick and tired of the narrative that unions are responsible for so much of the economic problems in America. This is a ridiculous notion, especially when we weigh the fact that unions only represent a little over 5% of todays workers. We are a miniscule minority yet we somehow seem to be constantly blamed and attacked in a never ending narrative that we are responsible for everything thats wrong, everywhere, all the time. I've heard these notions for years, the majority of the time its coming from someone that isnt nor ever has been a union member. But they claim some expertise on everything thats going on in your union cuz reasons...and anectdotally they know a guy that worked on a assembly line and their daddy said he was a real lazy s.o.b. and so on and so forth. 

Lets get real, 5% of the workforce is too small a sample to be taking all the blame and prejudices for the majority of problems out there. A lot of this is clearly ingrained prejudices against organized labor, similar to racism, those prejudices can exist over generations, I know because ive witnessed those attitudes my entire adult life.

2. Regarding your eta-

I too share that hopelessness and bewilderment that we are at a point, as a society, that its okay for badged, armed thugs in uniforms, to get away with murdering completely innocent civillians just trying to go about their daily lives. Its pretty chilling, I worry for my sons life at times. I would like to see some significant downsizing of police forces nationwide, I know I would feel safer with these guys (police) off the streets. What a mess.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

DWS,

You don't think Police Unions are something of a special and rather unique circumstance?

[DireWolfSpirit]

32 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

DWS,

You don't think Police Unions are something of a special and rather unique circumstance?

Im on the outside looking in regarding police unions so I couldnt properly judge the role of their union and how it functions between employer/employee. This is also why I find it ironic that so many from outside are always critical of many unions without being part of them or even being in the same field. With only a small glimpse into a relationship (employer to employee) you'd only be , at best guessing, at guaging the whole picture in my view.

That said, as I mentioned in the earlier post, I'd feel safer with less cops on the street, they seem like too big of a danger to American society as they are presently constituted and managed. What responsibility the union has in that situation, I could only guess right? But as in any employee/employer relation, I would think the union isnt any more culpable than its management. Supervision is making decisions on staffing, workplace protocal and so forth. They deserve as much culpability as the employee (policeman) who goes about trying to navigate by the rules they may not have designed nor had any authority over. In other words, its disengenuous to blame the guys following orders, while ignoring the entity that gave those orders.

[Dr. Pepper]

I think perhaps police unions could probably use some reform but I wouldn't want our cops to lose things like collective bargaining for pay and other benefits.  

I think laws and who is prosecuting and investigating misconduct is probably more relevant when it comes to change.  

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I think perhaps police unions could probably use some reform but I wouldn't want our cops to lose things like collective bargaining for pay and other benefits.  

I think laws and who is prosecuting and investigating misconduct is probably more relevant when it comes to change.  

 

Dr.P,

Look at what Kalbear posted up thread.  Police Unions are fighting independent investigation and prosecution of Police misconduct.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Well the Police Chiefs and Police Commisioners arent union members. There is so much emphasis on officers misconduct, Im not hearing many calls for accountability from their supervision. Afterall these officers are working under the conditions set by their superiors. They are responsible for the rank and placement of those officers, the duties and conduct of those officers. How much responsibility should they take for bad decision making when they and their policies result in mayhem on the community?

Municipal ordinances dictate the scope of authority a chief possesses and limits them in the abilities of commanding. The following list is a general sense of the actions and responsibilities held by any chief of police.

1. Oversight of a department's totality of operation and budgeting.

Oversight of officers.

1. Limited disciplinary actions to be addressed on infractions of policy, rules, regulations, laws or ordinances.^[2]

Full dismissal or heavy sanctioning of officer duty varying by municipal ordinance. Promotion and rank placement of officers. Patrol, investigating, and other duties performed by officers. Production and development of department policies and regulations. Upkeep and updating of department equipment such as police cruisers, firearms, communications equipment, and uniforms.^[3] Attending community events and council meetings to give briefings on department conditions or other undisclosed information vital to municipal operation and well being.

1. Reporting to the municipality's mayor or city director regarding operations (and dismissal of officers for misconduct varying by municipal ordinance).

Reporting to the municipality's board of directors. 10,152

 

        I see no reason why accountability should only rest with the union over bad policing?

.                  

[Centrist Simon Steele]

On 6/25/2017 at 5:41 PM, Dr. Pepper said:

I think perhaps police unions could probably use some reform but I wouldn't want our cops to lose things like collective bargaining for pay and other benefits.  

I think laws and who is prosecuting and investigating misconduct is probably more relevant when it comes to change.  

 

And police should have a chance at a fair trial--like everyone else. But they should not be above the law. But the unions seem to have found a way to allow them to be above the law. This is problematic. I agree with you--collective bargaining is very important. Scot is right too--police are a special case. They have the ability to determine who lives and who dies in an ordinary interaction.

DWS and I seem to share a hopeless view on this situation especially given the Castile verdict--and Castile is a man who was chosen to die at the hands of a police officer. No matter the reason, Castile should still be alive (among countless others). It's chilling and terrifying. 

[all swedes are racist]

On 6/27/2017 at 1:12 AM, Simon Steele said:

And police should have a chance at a fair trial--like everyone else. But they should not be above the law. But the unions seem to have found a way to allow them to be above the law. This is problematic. I agree with you--collective bargaining is very important. Scot is right too--police are a special case. They have the ability to determine who lives and who dies in an ordinary interaction.

DWS and I seem to share a hopeless view on this situation especially given the Castile verdict--and Castile is a man who was chosen to die at the hands of a police officer. No matter the reason, Castile should still be alive (among countless others). It's chilling and terrifying. 

yes, very much this. and to dws' point re: employer/employee relationship, i think it's important to frame said relationship as between police and the public, whom they are sworn to serve and protect; (I really ducking hate to frame it like this, but...) these are "employees" that maintain the power of life and death (among many other powers) over their "employers", who in turn hold very little, and much diluted power. i am sure I am in the radical, extreme minority here, but considering they are the armed, force weilding arm of capital, they don't deserve collective bargaining rights anymore than a "union" of ceo's would

[DireWolfSpirit]

This kind of cowardice just makes my blood boil ! http://nypost.com/2017/07/10/homeowner-slams-cop-for-shooting-tail-wagging-dog/amp/?ref=yfp

 

[James Arryn]

Sure, dogs again. At this point no one speaks for the primates anymore, the silent undersupporred backbone of our society. All anyone cares about are dogs and other so-called minorities.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Primates- 

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Man this story is so messed up. Twin Cities police have really been doing a terrible job as of late:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/deadly-police-shooting-bride-minneapolis/story?id=48678930

[ljkeane]

18 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Man this story is so messed up. Twin Cities police have really been doing a terrible job as of late:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/deadly-police-shooting-bride-minneapolis/story?id=48678930

It's pretty bizarre. With police shootings, even if they're not justified, you can usually see why they did it; because they overreacted or misinterpreted a situation or whatever. Shooting a women in her pyjamas, who called the police and was apparently talking to his partner, through the door of a police car is hard to understand.

[Gertrude]

I read a story about this on a foxnews page. Anyone want to guess what many of the comments were like? Yeah, we all know how that goes. Funny how when the situation is reversed it's suddenly the people that hired him and didn't follow through with complaints about the officer are suddenly to blame.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I read a story about this on a foxnews page. Anyone want to guess what many of the comments were like? Yeah, we all know how that goes. Funny how when the situation is reversed it's suddenly the people that hired him and didn't follow through with complaints about the officer are suddenly to blame.

I'll be honest--I wasn't sure how this would go. If the people who ignored the messages of groups like BLM would continue to defend the police, or would see this shooting as a problem. Not enough of a problem, though, as evidence that the police are out of control, but interesting they aren't supporting the police one hundred percent.

I'm really trying to avoid phrases that paint deniers in a negative/racist light. But this woman being murdered is tragic, same as Eric Garner, Philando Castile, Kendra James, and Alton Sterling. The moment I saw this latest one, I felt some of the deniers might, at least, change their tune.