Jump to content

Reforming police, the Blue Wall of Silence


Ser Scot A Ellison

Recommended Posts

10 hours ago, Dornite said:

I’m sorry if this has been discussed before, but have any of you read The New Jim Crow? I recently finished it and it’s a very good analysis of some of the problems with the criminal justice system.

i haven't, though i've been meaning to

------

in other news:

http://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/police-officer-allegedly-burglarized-home-stole-medication-authorities/story?id=50718877

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I saw that one about the robbery. Apparently it took them about 5 weeks to finally arrest him. He's just a good guy who is struggling with an addiction and it's a tragic situation. Motherfuckers. He's a criminal, treat him like any other criminal you'd arrest at the drop of a hat with a tenth of the evidence you had on him. No idea what that department's reputation is, but I'm guessing they don't have that same compassion and understanding for anyone else they arrest for armed robbery.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, r'hllor's redrum lobster said:

It’s quite good, it brings a lot of the problems with the criminal justice system and race together in one book. It also gives a good history of history of black peoples position in the US from slavery through Jim Crow until now. Usually articles about the subject only focus on one of these things, having it brought together is probably eye opening for some people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Another shooting where an officer killed an unarmed person.  The officer was fired but acquitted by a jury:

http://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/364218-buck-sexton-if-police-can-execute-an-innocent-man-on-video-none-of-us?rnd=1512995560

 

We have to start holding Police Officers to higher standards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Another shooting where an officer killed an unarmed person.  The officer was fired but acquitted by a jury:

http://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/364218-buck-sexton-if-police-can-execute-an-innocent-man-on-video-none-of-us?rnd=1512995560

 

We have to start holding Police Officers to higher standards.

Even if you assume good-faith on the part of the officer shouting instructions (which I don't, but let's roll with it for a second), the incompetence would still be mind-blowing. There was no attempt to de-escalate, he clearly goes out of his way to keep the whole scenario in a state of heightened emotions and tension. Why the aggressive shouting? Why the threats of death? He very clearly was not looking to see the situation resolved peacefully. He very clearly was not looking to minimise the chance of a firearm being discharged, to keep it as an absolute last-resort option. He very clearly contributed to his colleague being in a heightened state of tension and unneccesarily pulling the trigger. Shockingly incompetent crisis management, even without assuming outright maliciousness (which frankly we probably should).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Liffguard said:

Even if you assume good-faith on the part of the officer shouting instructions (which I don't, but let's roll with it for a second), the incompetence would still be mind-blowing. There was no attempt to de-escalate, he clearly goes out of his way to keep the whole scenario in a state of heightened emotions and tension. Why the aggressive shouting? Why the threats of death? He very clearly was not looking to see the situation resolved peacefully. He very clearly was not looking to minimise the chance of a firearm being discharged, to keep it as an absolute last-resort option. He very clearly contributed to his colleague being in a heightened state of tension and unneccesarily pulling the trigger. Shockingly incompetent crisis management, even without assuming outright maliciousness (which frankly we probably should).

Exactly.  The officer who was shouting was the officer who did the shooting.  The other officers who were there with him didn’t fire and didn’t think his actions were justified.  That’s why he was fired.  The “reasonable officer standard” for conviction in the murder trial is what allowed the acquittal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Exactly.  The officer who was shouting was the officer who did the shooting. 

I'm not sure that's accurate. I believe Officer Philip Brailsford was the shooter and Sgt. Charles Langley was shouting instructions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The other thing I’m finding incredibly frustrating is that, clearly, body cameras and video of police killings and brutality is not preventing these deaths or curbing police killings.  They keep killing unarmed people, claiming that their actions were justified by their fear, and that they were just doin what they were trained to do.

If that is the case police training in the US needs to change yesterday.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's one that has really been eating me lately.

Police search for a 40 year old white woman allegedly armed with a knife and arrest and 11 year old black child instead.  

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/cops-handcuff-11-year-old-girl-gunpoint_us_5a2ff13ee4b078950283d6bc

There are some videos online of the body cam footage and the child is obviously in terror.  She grows up in a world where there's video footage of cops gunning down a 12 year old boy while he was playing at the park.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Here's one that has really been eating me lately.

Police search for a 40 year old white woman allegedly armed with a knife and arrest and 11 year old black child instead.  

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/cops-handcuff-11-year-old-girl-gunpoint_us_5a2ff13ee4b078950283d6bc

There are some videos online of the body cam footage and the child is obviously in terror.  She grows up in a world where there's video footage of cops gunning down a 12 year old boy while he was playing at the park.  

This falls into the problem where current police training seems to assume any action, no matter how bizarre or illogical, is justified for “officer safety”.  

Do police not realize that their safety is not more valuable than that of the people they protect?  They seem to hold that police lives are more valuable than the lives of ordinary non-police citizens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said:

There are some videos online of the body cam footage and the child is obviously in terror.  She grows up in a world where there's video footage of cops gunning down a 12 year old boy while he was playing at the park.  

You mean this footage where the officers treat her calmly and respectfully, don't shout at her,  where her mother is yelling and screaming at the police to not handcuff her and then when they do the child reacts by screaming and yelling? 

http://time.com/5067130/grand-rapids-police-11-year-old-handcuff/

Quote

Hodges was handcuffed for two minutes, patted down to make sure there was nothing dangerous on her and held in the police cruiser for 10 minutes.

Quote

“Once onscene, officers determined that the suspect fled the residence still armed with the knife, Their investigation led to a second Westside Grand Rapids home where it was believed the suspect may have fled to. As officers were setting up a perimeter, three females simultaneously exited the home, two adults and one 11 year old juvenile. Until it could be determined that the individuals were not the suspect, nor armed with a weapon, the three were ordered back to officers and detained. 

Seems to me pretty reasonable that if they are looking for a suspect and evidence that 3 people leaving the house at the same time is reason enough to detain them and make sure they aren't escaping with evidence, especially if that evidence is a weapon. The headline that they are somehow mistaking a white woman for a black child is misleading and clearly not what is happening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

You mean this footage where the officers treat her calmly and respectfully, don't shout at her,  where her mother is yelling and screaming at the police to not handcuff her and then when they do the child reacts by screaming and yelling? 

http://time.com/5067130/grand-rapids-police-11-year-old-handcuff/

Seems to me pretty reasonable that if they are looking for a suspect and evidence that 3 people leaving the house at the same time is reason enough to detain them and make sure they aren't escaping with evidence, especially if that evidence is a weapon. The headline that they are somehow mistaking a white woman for a black child is misleading and clearly not what is happening.

See, any action is even handcuffiing an 11 year old is justified by invoking “officer safety”.

What is your take on the shooting in Mesa Arizona of a terrified unarmed man?  Also justified by “officer safety”.  Because the lives and rights of non-police are not more important than “officer safety”?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

See, any action is even handcuffiing an 11 year old is justified by invoking “officer safety”.

If she is potentially carrying evidence, or a weapon then i think its pretty reasonable to detain her to ascertain whats going on. Otherwise she could run away, or worse. And it seems to have been done in a calm manner. 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

This falls into the problem where current police training seems to assume any action, no matter how bizarre or illogical, is justified for “officer safety”.  

Do police not realize that their safety is not more valuable than that of the people they protect?  They seem to hold that police lives are more valuable than the lives of ordinary non-police citizens.

This is what infuriates me.  What's the point in having a police force if they put their perceived safety so far above the well-being of those they are supposed to protect?  What are the chances this child is going to call the police if she one day witnesses a crime or finds herself the victim of a crime?  Probably pretty slim after being terrorized for merely walking outside her house when police rolled up.  It makes us all less safe when the police behave this way.  

2 hours ago, Eggegg said:

You mean this footage where the officers treat her calmly and respectfully, don't shout at her,  where her mother is yelling and screaming at the police to not handcuff her and then when they do the child reacts by screaming and yelling? 

http://time.com/5067130/grand-rapids-police-11-year-old-handcuff/

Seems to me pretty reasonable that if they are looking for a suspect and evidence that 3 people leaving the house at the same time is reason enough to detain them and make sure they aren't escaping with evidence, especially if that evidence is a weapon. The headline that they are somehow mistaking a white woman for a black child is misleading and clearly not what is happening.

There's really nothing surprising about you arguing this angle.  

There's no indication that any of these three people have a weapon or are about to run other than the officers using that excuse for the way they behaved.  It's fucking stupid to claim that.  If they were going to run, they'd probably use a back door or window instead of walking out and standing right in front of the cops.  

Her mother is yelling the child's age at the cops.  That's not unreasonable when cops have guns pointed on your child even when she's clearly complying with bizarre, unnecessary orders.  This is a country where kids gets gunned down by cops for merely playing in a park.  I can't imagine not trying to reason with the cops or at least make sure they absolutely know that they are engaging with a child.  

It's disgusting that you think there's a problem with a child being upset about being handcuffed and placed in a police cruiser.  This is terrifying for an adult - especially one who has done nothing more than stand on their porch and comply with orders.  A child does not have the same emotional capacity as an adult so it's reasonable that their expression of terror - screaming for their mom - would be different than an adult's.  If those pricks would have listened to the woman that this was an 11 year old child, perhaps they would have behaved differently.  Or perhaps not, they were being unreasonable to start.  

The headline is not misleading.  They were looking for one suspect and instead cuffed another person who not only looked nothing like her but was doing nothing more than standing on her porch and then following orders.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Eggegg said:

If she is potentially carrying evidence, or a weapon then i think its pretty reasonable to detain her to ascertain whats going on. Otherwise she could run away, or worse. And it seems to have been done in a calm manner. 
 

Cuffing... an 11 year old who has done nothing to indicate she’s a threat?

What is your take on the shooting of Daniel Shaver?  Was the killing of an unarmed man who was crying and begging for his life justified by “officer safety”?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

 Until it could be determined that the individuals were not the suspect, nor armed with a weapon, the three were ordered back to officers and detained. 

I don't know what world you live in, but this is an absolutely reasonable position for the police to take considering it was thought that the suspect had fled to that residence. The child clearly wasn't the suspect, but the other two women could well have been, and the child could easily have been carrying evidence, or the alleged weapon used to STAB someone. How could the police determine that these people were not armed or did not have evidence on them which they were trying to dispose of if they were not detained and patted down ( a process that too 2 minutes)

I don't believe the mothers behaviour was very helpful in the situation and definitely contributed to the child's shrieking. She could have calmed the situation if she had wanted to.

If it comes down to a choice between people dying and a child being a bit upset, I know which side of the line I fall down on here. 



 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Cuffing... an 11 year old who has done nothing to indicate she’s a threat?

 

And if she runs away carrying evidence? Or if she is actually carrying a weapon on her? In a situation where there are so many unknowns I see no problem in officers taking reasonable precautions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

I don't know what world you live in, but this is an absolutely reasonable position for the police to take considering it was thought that the suspect had fled to that residence. The child clearly wasn't the suspect, but the other two women could well have been, and the child could easily have been carrying evidence, or the alleged weapon used to STAB someone. How could the police determine that these people were not armed or did not have evidence on them which they were trying to dispose of if they were not detained and patted down ( a process that too 2 minutes)

I don't believe the mothers behaviour was very helpful in the situation and definitely contributed to the child's shrieking. She could have calmed the situation if she had wanted to.

If it comes down to a choice between people dying and a child being a bit upset, I know which side of the line I fall down on here. 



 

The child was clearly being treated as the suspect.  Did you not see them having her with her hands raised, guns pointed, making her back up, then cuffing her?  

The police could have easily begun to determine that women and a child standing on their front were not the suspects and/or were not carrying weapons, and/or were not running by perhaps stopping and speaking first instead of immediately drawing weapons.  They had no idea if these people were the victims, no idea if they were the ones who called them in the first place.  

The mother was very reasonable and you're just making shit up by claiming she wasn't.  Again, since you want to ignore facts I'll remind you that this was a child and she was letting them know it was a child they had guns pointed at.  You know who could have calmed the situation?  The fucking police by, you know, maybe not come in guns blazing.  

2 minutes ago, Eggegg said:

And if she runs away carrying evidence? Or if she is actually carrying a weapon on her? In a situation where there are so many unknowns I see no problem in officers taking reasonable precautions.

So basically you argue that anything can be cause to do whatever the fuck the police want.  Not surprising coming from the likes of you, but not actually reasonable or helpful for decent people. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Dr. Pepper said:

The child was clearly being treated as the suspect.  Did you not see them having her with her hands raised, guns pointed, making her back up, then cuffing her?  

The police could have easily begun to determine that women and a child standing on their front were not the suspects and/or were not carrying weapons, and/or were not running by perhaps stopping and speaking first instead of immediately drawing weapons.  They had no idea if these people were the victims, no idea if they were the ones who called them in the first place.  

The mother was very reasonable and you're just making shit up by claiming she wasn't.  Again, since you want to ignore facts I'll remind you that this was a child and she was letting them know it was a child they had guns pointed at.  You know who could have calmed the situation?  The fucking police by, you know, maybe not come in guns blazing.  

So basically you argue that anything can be cause to do whatever the fuck the police want.  Not surprising coming from the likes of you, but not actually reasonable or helpful for decent people. 

She’s screaming ‘don’t cuff her don’t cuff her’ Which is clearly making the girl terrified of being cuffed. The officers are asking the mother to stop yelling so she’s hardly being reasonable and calm is she. She is far from being helpful in the situation.

I’m arguing the actions seemed reasonable given the situation, nobody got hurt and the officers were calm and professional. This is different to other cases I’ve seen 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...