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Does Dorne support the dragon?


MizasterJ

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One of the most complex of mysteries to me has been: Who does House Martell (& specifically Doran) cast their support with? For the longest time I thought it was the Targaryens (mostly due to Rhaegar & Elia), yet as of today I no longer believe such.

The Martells do not seem to be in support of Targ rule, even as a means of putting themselves closer to the throne, in fact quite the opposite. Evidence of this being that Doran purposefully setup Quentyn to fail in a bid to make an alliance with Dany, yet gave Arianne every measure of his support. This also leads me to believe that Doran knows young griff is not a Targ. However I am still very much perplexed as to why he would seemingly sacrifice his son & spite Dany at the same time.

If this all turns out to be true, what is Doran's strategy? Does he actually believe he can take the throne without any alliance? or does he have a secret partnership in the waiting?

Do (f) Aegon and the Golden Company represent something other than Targ rulership?

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54 minutes ago, MizasterJ said:

One of the most complex of mysteries to me has been: Who does House Martell (& specifically Doran) cast their support with? For the longest time I thought it was the Targaryens (mostly due to Rhaegar & Elia), yet as of today I no longer believe such.

The Martells do not seem to be in support of Targ rule, even as a means of putting themselves closer to the throne, in fact quite the opposite. Evidence of this being that Doran purposefully setup Quentyn to fail in a bid to make an alliance with Dany, yet gave Arianne every measure of his support. This also leads me to believe that Doran knows young griff is not a Targ. However I am still very much perplexed as to why he would seemingly sacrifice his son & spite Dany at the same time.

If this all turns out to be true, what is Doran's strategy? Does he actually believe he can take the throne without any alliance? or does he have a secret partnership in the waiting?

Do (f) Aegon and the Golden Company represent something other than Targ rulership?

I think it's uo to Arianne at this point, she can chose. And everything looks as if she would choose Faegon.

Why do you think that Doran wanted Quentyn to fail?

No I don't believe that he thinks he can take the throne without an alliance, he might have some allies at court (Varys? Taena? ) and in Essos (his wife, the company that oberyn founded, the old sealord, the archon of tyrosh).

Well there are theorys that Faegon is either a Blackfyre or a brightflame or both. So he would be a targaryen but not of the main branch. Basically similar to Robert's claim via his grandma and his warhammer.

IMHO Doran gets too much credit for his supposedly brilliant plan to get revenge. Doran is intelligent but he is not a game player on the level of LF or Varys. He is not as inadequate as Ned or Robb though. He is basically pretty much average, similar in a way to his son.

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Just now, Bironic said:

Why do you think that Doran wanted Quentyn to fail?

Is there any evidence otherwise? I mean look at how poorly he equipped and prepared Quentyn for the task. Look at how very few resources he gave him. Not even any nice clothes to impress his future bride. He gave Arianne a book on dragons, yet made no mention of such book to Quentyn. He even recruited his rival house, the Yronwood's in Quentyn's mission. He either gave or allowed Quentyn to believe the false knowledge of the Dornish military size. The whole thing seemed like a no chance in hell scenario. 

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Well Aegon is half Martell so tit makes sense to back him and Arianne may even try to sedice him.

Ah, Quentyn is very interesting. Dorna has something planned for him, but he most certainly didnt plan for him to die. I do not know what happened there, but I am certain that Doran would have given him Martell trading ship that sails to Qarth f.e. with stol at Meereen, surround him with loyal men (Daemon Sand and co), put extra men as guards and stuff. But I also do not think it was plan for him to fail, but yet Quentyn almost died at Stepstones and there was big risk at Astapor and he actually died at Meereen. Something isnt right there, but I dont it is as wrong as you think it is.

Doran does not have the allies, money and army that would make him King or Arianne or whoever he wants from his family, he has to back someone.

2 minutes ago, MizasterJ said:

Is there any evidence otherwise? I mean look at how poorly he equipped and prepared Quentyn for the task. Look at how very few resources he gave him. Not even any nice clothes to impress his future bride. He gave Arianne a book on dragons, yet made no mention of such book to Quentyn. He even recruited his rival house, the Yronwood's in Quentyn's mission. He either gave or allowed Quentyn to believe the false knowledge of the Dornish military size. The whole thing seemed like a no chance in hell scenario. 

But did he want his son to die? Quentyn likes reading, he likely read something about dragons in Yronwood library, it is questionable how much useful info books contain (except that one in Citadel). Quentyn also likely knew about Dornish size since he was with Yronwoods, he wasnt fostered at Rosby so he has no ckue how men they have. Also I believe one army was there so he likely saw the numbers. Clothes cam be bought with gold he had. With other I agree, like I said something smells there, but not as much as Preston thinks.

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29 minutes ago, MizasterJ said:

Is there any evidence otherwise? I mean look at how poorly he equipped and prepared Quentyn for the task. Look at how very few resources he gave him. Not even any nice clothes to impress his future bride. He gave Arianne a book on dragons, yet made no mention of such book to Quentyn. He even recruited his rival house, the Yronwood's in Quentyn's mission. He either gave or allowed Quentyn to believe the false knowledge of the Dornish military size. The whole thing seemed like a no chance in hell scenario. 

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity, aka  Don't assume bad intentions over neglect and misunderstanding: Also known as Hanlon's razor.

Doran is no strategic genius. You can see that from the fact alone that he didn't even make an alliance between Quent and Daenerys, that was just an afterthought when he heard that Viserys was dead and that Daenerys had dragons.

He didn't recruit the Yronwoods for that purpose, he had to send Quentyn there because Oberyn dueled the Lord Yronwood and bedded his mistress. That was years ago, when quentyn was a child and Viserys still alive.

We have no reason that Daenerys knows about the size of any houses military. That was not the point why she didn't marry him.

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Just now, Bironic said:

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity, aka  Don't assume bad intentions over neglect and misunderstanding: Also known as Hanlon's razor.

Doran is no strategic genius. 

He didn't recruit the Yronwoods for that purpose, he had to send Quentyn there because Oberyn dueled the Lord Yronwood and bedded his mistress. That was years ago, when quentyn was a child and Viserys still alive.

We have no reason that Daenerys knows about the size of any houses military. That was not the point why she didn't marry him.

Doran is also not an idiot,and even if he isnt the smartest man, he still takes so much time to calculate that he would have certainly prepared Quentyn more, and He IS very cautious especially with his children. 

It makes no sense to allow the Yronwoods to be responsible for Quentyn on this task.

Also if Quentyn wasn't certain about the military size, why would he brag about it to her?

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On 24.9.2016 at 4:35 AM, MizasterJ said:

Doran is also not an idiot,and even if he isnt the smartest man, he still takes so much time to calculate that he would have certainly prepared Quentyn more, and He IS very cautious especially with his children. 

It makes no sense to allow the Yronwoods to be responsible for Quentyn on this task.

Also if Quentyn wasn't certain about the military size, why would he brag about it to her?

Yes he takes a lot of time to calculate and think and when he finally moves, the parameters of the calculations have already altered, which leads to failure.

He planned to marry Arianne Martell to Viserys but he never moved, thus Viserys died and he had to make a new plan, but when he sent Quentyn, Daenerys was already a queen with unsullied and dragons, unlikely to accept an alliance with Dorne.

First the Yronwoods are not responsible for quentyn on this task, they are there because Doran was forced to placate the Yronwoods way back when Oberyn insulted them. Doran has no choice in this, if he orders them to leave quentyn alone, they will rebel.

I am not saying that quentyn didn't know about the size of his own military. I am saying that Daenerys had no clue about the size of dornish military. And even if dorne had 100'000 soldiers, Daenerys would'nt have married Quent, because she was already married and wanted to rule meereen plus Quentyn isn't exactly a ladies man. Why not brag about the size of your army? Daenerys has now way of proving him wrong.

 

 

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