Alexander Siddig was confused, surprised and a little dissatisfacted apparently

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

So today I found out about how Alexander Siddig handled the sudden death of his character and the way the producers warned him about it. He is not harsh and certainly not offensive to D&D, which I think it's the best way to go, of course, but he does seem to sense how pointless the character and the whole storyline was. Another one for the gallery of relatively baffled actors among the cast. I'm not involved in neither criticizing, bashing or praising the show. I manage (sometimes) to appreciate the little good things hidden beneath some disliked decisions they made during the last seasons. In general the characters I appreciate the most don't have too much screentime but some of their scenes I actually memorized because I love the characters so much... so mixed feelings, that is what I have about the show.

 

Anyway any thoughts about Alexander Siddig's interview. Links below:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-doran-martell-actor-alexander-siddig-on-his-scant-screen-time-maybe-i-said-the-wrong-a7325766.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/game-of-thrones-star-supports-an-hbo-conspiracy_us_57e53184e4b08d73b830b7d7

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a48865/alexander-siddig-game-of-thrones-doran-martell/

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

Not read the books but his part in the show up till his death was merely to gradually ruffle the sands feathers and for them to seize power... surely he must've seen it coming with all the tension between his character and the sand girls.

[JonSnow4President]

For comparison with non book readers, he sends his son to marry Daenerys and bring her to Dorne, accidentally setting his daughter to believing he wants to skip her for her brother in the line of succession (since gender does not influence inheritance in Dorne).  He stops the daughter's rebellion, in which she planned to crown Myrcella in order to secure her own place as heir to Dorne.  At the end, Doran and daughter reunite, where he reveals he has planned for the downfall of the Lannisters since the day they killed his sister.  He knows he would lose the war, and does not want to make the children of Dorne suffer, so he has had to bide his time until the perfect time to strike.  

Quote

“I am not blind, nor deaf. I know that you all believe me weak, frightened, feeble. Your father knew me better. Oberyn was ever the viper. Deadly, dangerous, unpredictable. No man dared tread on him. I was the grass. Pleasant, complaisant, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze. Who fears to walk upon the grass? But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes. Your father and I worked more closely than you know … but now he is gone. The question is, can I trust his daughters to serve me in his place?"

Quote

 

Her father plucked up a cyvasse piece. "I must know how you learned that Quentyn was abroad. Your brother went with Cletus Yronwood, Maester Kedry, and three of Lord Yronwood's best young knights on a long and perilous voyage, with an uncertain welcome at its end. He has gone to bring us back our heart's desire."

She narrowed her eyes. "What is our heart's desire?"

"Vengeance." His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. "Justice." Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, "Fire and blood."

 

 

[BlueBard]

Its interesting that he wonders if he said the wrong thing to the wrong person. I have often had the impression that if D&D didn't particularly like an actor then their character would suffer for it, I'm thinking of how they changed Stannis' narrative and made him much less sympathetic and killed off Barristan. In fact they boasted about killing off characters even when actors write to them begging them not to- they said they enjoy killing them off even more after getting a long letter stating why the character shouldn't be killed and had a right old snigger about it. That had to have been Ian McElhinney they were sniggering at as I saw him on Thronewatch and he said he had written to them. Perhaps they feel the need to be courted by the cast? 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

The Dorne plot in the books is terrible - at least Doran's character is morally consistent in the show.  He just wants peace, period.  Meanwhile in the books he expects the Targaryens to be pleased to have his help now that Daenerys has her own dragons and army and therefore don't need it, after ignoring them for 15 years.  And while he likes to pretend to favor peace he actually is just as bloodthirsty as anyone and would accept child murder if it was required by whatever Targaryen he ends up backing.  He's a hypocrite and a failure.  And unlike in the books, when he fucks up he pays for it.  In the books he screws up and has a rebellion on his hands but is saved by someone ratting out Arianne.  

Personally, I think that Doran's death was necessary in order for there to ultimately be a conflict between Dorne and Daenerys' forces.  If Doran was left alive, then he would be a perfect ally for Daenerys to court - a rational, reasonable man who wants peace but who in the end would rather a Targaryen than a Lannister sit the Iron Throne.  Instead, she has as her "allies" some over the top bloodthirsty villains who like to murder innocent children, including the niece of her top adviser.  There is simply no way that this isn't going to be a problem that Dany and Tyrion will have to grapple with next season.  I'd argue by killing Doran, D&D are actually returning to the future book storyline (which D&D likely know from conversations with GRRM) - wherein Danaerys will have to content with Aegon and his Dornish allies before she can finally take down Cersei.  She will have to grapple with a choice between doing what's right and doing what's politically/militarially expedient - the kind of choice that she's by now faced numerous times.  

All that said - Siddig hasn't read the books.  So a response to his comments can't really be "oh they should have followed the books and not wasted such a good actor" since he doesn't have that perspective anyway.  His comments can basically be summed up as "I got a lot of conflicting information about how much and when I would film."  Which makes sense, as obviously D&D did decide to increase and later decrease the amount of emphasis they put on the Dorne storyline.  They probably had a bit more of a build up to Doran finally being murdered planned at first...  and realized that people would rather be looking at the major, established characters rather than a bunch of over the top villains that Dany is going to take out next season anyway.  Bringing the focus back to the main cast is a consistent strategy they have taken.  It's why they even included Dorne in the first place (give Jaime and Bronn something to do).  

[JonSnow4President]

9 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

The Dorne plot in the books is terrible - at least Doran's character is morally consistent in the show.  He just wants peace, period.  Meanwhile in the books he expects the Targaryens to be pleased to have his help now that Daenerys has her own dragons and army and therefore don't need it, after ignoring them for 15 years.  And while he likes to pretend to favor peace he actually is just as bloodthirsty as anyone and would accept child murder if it was required by whatever Targaryen he ends up backing.  He's a hypocrite and a failure.  And unlike in the books, when he fucks up he pays for it.  In the books he screws up and has a rebellion on his hands but is saved by someone ratting out Arianne.  

Personally, I think that Doran's death was necessary in order for there to ultimately be a conflict between Dorne and Daenerys' forces.  If Doran was left alive, then he would be a perfect ally for Daenerys to court - a rational, reasonable man who wants peace but who in the end would rather a Targaryen than a Lannister sit the Iron Throne.  Instead, she has as her "allies" some over the top bloodthirsty villains who like to murder innocent children, including the niece of her top adviser.  There is simply no way that this isn't going to be a problem that Dany and Tyrion will have to grapple with next season.  I'd argue by killing Doran, D&D are actually returning to the future book storyline (which D&D likely know from conversations with GRRM) - wherein Danaerys will have to content with Aegon and his Dornish allies before she can finally take down Cersei.  She will have to grapple with a choice between doing what's right and doing what's politically/militarially expedient - the kind of choice that she's by now faced numerous times.  

 

To the bold, so consistent the show.  Thank God!

If you want to oversimplify the Dorne story to the point of absurdity, be my guest.  Just realize you're take on the book Dorne storyline seems that much more warped because of it.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

2 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

To the bold, so consistent the show.  Thank God!

I don't see what's inconsistent about Doran being a man of peace, and then dying because he isn't tipped off to the building rebellion in time. 

2 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

If you want to oversimplify the Dorne story to the point of absurdity, be my guest.  Just realize you're take on the book Dorne storyline seems that much more warped because of it.

I could (and have done in other posts) write pages about how awful the Book Dorne storyline is - in particular the character of Doran.  This was a very brief summary and anyway not the main point of my post.  

The main point is - what do Alex Siddig's comments actually tell us (that D&D decided to streamline the Dorne story somewhat at the last minute), and why did they make the choice to kill Doran (to ensure conflict between Team!Dany and Dornish characters).  

[JonSnow4President]

6 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I don't see what's inconsistent about Doran being a man of peace, and then dying because he isn't tipped off to the building rebellion in time. 

I could (and have done in other posts) write pages about how awful the Book Dorne storyline is - in particular the character of Doran.  This was a very brief summary and anyway not the main point of my post.  

The main point is - what do Alex Siddig's comments actually tell us (that D&D decided to streamline the Dorne story somewhat at the last minute), and why did they make the choice to kill Doran (to ensure conflict between Team!Dany and Dornish characters).  

Oh please, pray tell.  How would killing Doran ensure conflict between Team!Dany and Dornish characters?  Based on the super-hard-to-figure-out-exactly-what-has-happened-but-based-on-the-showrunner's-comments-is-highly-illogical last scene, Dorne is all in on team Dany, no conflict required.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

8 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Oh please, pray tell.  How would killing Doran ensure conflict between Team!Dany and Dornish characters?  Based on the super-hard-to-figure-out-exactly-what-has-happened-but-based-on-the-showrunner's-comments-is-highly-illogical last scene, Dorne is all in on team Dany, no conflict required.

You can't figure this out? Seriously?  

Ellaria murdered Myrcella.

Tyrion is Myrcella's uncle - and not only that, but he loved her.

Tyrion is Daenerys' friend, adviser, and closest ally.

Daenerys faces a choice between Tyrion's loyalty, and that of the Dornish forces.  She'll choose Tyrion. 

[JonSnow4President]

3 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

You can't figure this out? Seriously?  

Ellaria murdered Myrcella.

Tyrion is Myrcella's uncle - and not only that, but he loved her.

Tyrion is Daenerys' friend, adviser, and closest ally.

Daenerys faces a choice between Tyrion's loyalty, and that of the Dornish forces.  She'll choose Tyrion. 

Ahh, Myrcella I could see causing strife (although that's not been touched at all, but I'll hold off laughing about it until they don't next season).  Doran, i could not.  

[Meera of Tarth]

38 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

I don't see what's inconsistent about Doran being a man of peace, and then dying because he isn't tipped off to the building rebellion in time. 

I could (and have done in other posts) write pages about how awful the Book Dorne storyline is - in particular the character of Doran.  This was a very brief summary and anyway not the main point of my post.  

The main point is - what do Alex Siddig's comments actually tell us (that D&D decided to streamline the Dorne story somewhat at the last minute), and why did they make the choice to kill Doran (to ensure conflict between Team!Dany and Dornish characters).  

At least books can make someone write pages about how bad or good Dorne is; in the case of the show.....A brief summary is the only thing one could expect since its plot is extremely simplistic and ridiculous.

[Ruhail]

3 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

The main point is - what do Alex Siddig's comments actually tell us (that D&D decided to streamline the Dorne story somewhat at the last minute), and why did they make the choice to kill Doran (to ensure conflict between Team!Dany and Dornish characters).  

As if, its pretty obvious that it was a response to the backlash. I'll probably laugh, when Tyrion is all cool with the bad pussy brigrade it'll probably be S7's equivilant of Davos liking Mel out of no where hiliarious.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

5 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

Ahh, Myrcella I could see causing strife (although that's not been touched at all, but I'll hold off laughing about it until they don't next season).  Doran, i could not.  

Certainly if not earlier, when Tyrion meets Jaime (definitely happening) then it will come up.  There's no way that Jaime would not be like "your niece died in my arms poisoned by that B-tch leading a quarter of your army". 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

1 hour ago, Ruhail said:

As if, its pretty obvious that it was a response to the backlash. I'll probably laugh, when Tyrion is all cool with the bad pussy brigrade it'll probably be S7's equivilant of Davos liking Mel out of no where hiliarious.

When did Davos "like" Melisandre?  He seemed deeply suspicious of her though he realized her powers could be useful.  Like usual?  Then he was like "die now"

[The hairy bear]

19 hours ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

The Dorne plot in the books is terrible - at least Doran's character is morally consistent in the show.  He just wants peace, period.  Meanwhile in the books he expects the Targaryens to be pleased to have his help now that Daenerys has her own dragons and army and therefore don't need it, after ignoring them for 15 years.

You are entitled to your opinion about Doran's character in the books, but some of the things you say are incorrect. Doran didn't ignore the Targaryens during 15 years: instead he coordinated a strategy with Ser Willem Darry and negotiated the marriage between Viserys and Arianne. He could not have planned that Viserys would die among the Dothraki, and you can't blame him for not having shared his secret plans to a thirteen year old girl.

 

Dorne is the weakest of the kingdoms in terms of military force. It's not like Doran had many alternatives to conspire in secret and wait for a better time to rebel.

 

But back to the OT, IMHO the problem is not the decision to kill Doran by itself. This can be justifiable in terms of streamlining the storyline and reducing the number of characters. In fact, I think that the producers have correctly identified many instances where the books had to be altered in order to adapt the story for TV. As I see it, though, the problem is that when they do that the original material that they come up with is noticeably weak.

I don't think that Siddig would complain if his character had been killed after a decent character arch and a couple of good scenes. The problem is that another great actor is killed in this show without having had a single chance to shine.

 

 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

You are entitled to your opinion about Doran's character in the books, but some of the things you say are incorrect. Doran didn't ignore the Targaryens during 15 years: instead he coordinated a strategy with Ser Willem Darry and negotiated the marriage between Viserys and Arianne. He could not have planned that Viserys would die among the Dothraki, and you can't blame him for not having shared his secret plans to a thirteen year old girl.

Sorry, but Doran did exactly nothing to help Viserys or Daenerys.  They had no knowledge that Doran was "secretly" on their side because there was no evidence of it.  Viserys was slowly pawning his mothers possessions and basically begging for food and shelter for years.  

Compare to Aegon - Varys and Illyrio successfully conspire to help the boy, educate him, raise him in relative luxury.  All without anyone knowing.  MeanWhile Doran sits on his ass and signs some document of "alliegiance" without the consent or knowledge of either party involved.  How about some food?  Shelter?  Protection?  These can be provided for easily through secret channels.  But he does nothing.  And expects Daenerys help now that she has dragons.  Honestly I don't think Doran would have bothered with Dany if she hadn't hatched them.  Which again goes to show what a selfish opportunist he is.  

Then when one party dies he sends his son to court the dragon queen with no preparation or training and no backup plan.  So the poor kid decides he had to steal a dragon to do his duty.  For such a supposedly "careful" guy like Doran this is reckless and stupid beyond imagining.  So which is it?  Is he a careful secret mastermind or a reckless idiot?  It can't be both - yet it is.  Which is why I say his character is inconsistently written.  Unlike the show version which at least is consistent.  

7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Dorne is the weakest of the kingdoms in terms of military force. It's not like Doran had many alternatives to conspire in secret and wait for a better time to rebel.

Communicate, build a relationship.  In secret. 

and wow he picked about he worst time possible to finally do something.  You'd think with that decade of waiting he could have had some kind of a playbook for Quentyn given a variety of contingencies.  But no, because the plot demanded it.

7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

But back to the OT, IMHO the problem is not the decision to kill Doran by itself. This can be justifiable in terms of streamlining the storyline and reducing the number of characters. In fact, I think that the producers have correctly identified many instances where the books had to be altered in order to adapt the story for TV. As I see it, though, the problem is that when they do that the original material that they come up with is noticeably weak.

I don't think that Siddig would complain if his character had been killed after a decent character arch and a couple of good scenes. The problem is that another great actor is killed in this show without having had a single chance to shine.

Eh, I agree largely with this.  They could and probably should have just left Dorne out given it frankly sucked.  

One thing I disagree with though - if they'd adapted it more closely Doran wouldn't have "shone" either.  Rather the glaring holes in his character would be even more obvious on screen than on the page.

[Meera of Tarth]

7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

You are entitled to your opinion about Doran's character in the books, but some of the things you say are incorrect. Doran didn't ignore the Targaryens during 15 years: instead he coordinated a strategy with Ser Willem Darry and negotiated the marriage between Viserys and Arianne. He could not have planned that Viserys would die among the Dothraki, and you can't blame him for not having shared his secret plans to a thirteen year old girl.

 

Dorne is the weakest of the kingdoms in terms of military force. It's not like Doran had many alternatives to conspire in secret and wait for a better time to rebel.

 

But back to the OT, IMHO the problem is not the decision to kill Doran by itself. This can be justifiable in terms of streamlining the storyline and reducing the number of characters. In fact, I think that the producers have correctly identified many instances where the books had to be altered in order to adapt the story for TV. As I see it, though, the problem is that when they do that the original material that they come up with is noticeably weak.

I don't think that Siddig would complain if his character had been killed after a decent character arch and a couple of good scenes. The problem is that another great actor is killed in this show without having had a single chance to shine.

 

 

perfectly said

[JonSnow4President]

48 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Sorry, but Doran did exactly nothing to help Viserys or Daenerys.  They had no knowledge that Doran was "secretly" on their side because there was no evidence of it.  Viserys was slowly pawning his mothers possessions and basically begging for food and shelter for years.  

Compare to Aegon - Varys and Illyrio successfully conspire to help the boy, educate him, raise him in relative luxury.  All without anyone knowing.  MeanWhile Doran sits on his ass and signs some document of "alliegiance" without the consent or knowledge of either party involved.  How about some food?  Shelter?  Protection?  These can be provided for easily through secret channels.  But he does nothing.  And expects Daenerys help now that she has dragons.  Honestly I don't think Doran would have bothered with Dany if she hadn't hatched them.  Which again goes to show what a selfish opportunist he is.  

I think this is twofold.  First, I don't think Doran is a moral paragon that necessarily precludes him from being a "selfish opportunist" to those outside his rule.  He clearly and unashamedly cares for the wellbeing of the children OF DORNE, but we see no indication that that sense of duty extends outside the border of his own kingdom.  I think he does view Viserys and Dany merely as a means to an end, not as two people who need/deserve help.  

As far as the support, I think it comes down to 2 reasons.  Doran is inherently (and arguably overly) cautious, and the more involved he is in the plot, the harder it is to maintain secrecy.  Loose lips from his agent abroad, or a random passerby seeing something strange have a small chance of costing him everything.  The other reason is simply control.  If Viserys doesn't know, he can't get impatient and accelerate the schedule.  Coming from Littlefinger,

Quote

"—I might have to remove her from the game sooner than I'd planned. Provided she does not remove herself first." Petyr teased her with a little smile. "In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you've planned for them. Mark that well, Alayne. It's a lesson that Cersei Lannister still has yet to learn. Now, don't you have some duties to perform?"

 

48 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Then when one party dies he sends his son to court the dragon queen with no preparation or training and no backup plan.  So the poor kid decides he had to steal a dragon to do his duty.  For such a supposedly "careful" guy like Doran this is reckless and stupid beyond imagining.  So which is it?  Is he a careful secret mastermind or a reckless idiot?  It can't be both - yet it is.  Which is why I say his character is inconsistently written.  Unlike the show version which at least is consistent.  

Doran clearly has a blindspot with his family members.  I don't know if he knew Arriane rebelled on his own or if he was told by a traitor in her party, but Doran allows her to get out of control enough to get the face sliced off of his prized hostage.  I don't think a similar blind spot for how far Quentyn will go is out of character.  I think Doran simply misreads Dany.  His own heart's desire is to bring the Lannister's down in fire and blood for what they did to one sister.  Dany lost a brother and a father directly, her family lost everything they ever knew, it stole her childhood and drove her brother mad.  In his mind, how can she not desire vengeance?  How can she not be rushing to Westeros at the first opportunity now that she has an army?  To find out that she already has an unspent kingdom on her side, which has been waiting for her in secret all this time, ready to join her in overthrowing the Lannisters.  I don't think he could conceive of her denying that opportunity.  

48 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Communicate, build a relationship.  In secret. 

See above.  Personally, I think taking him in and raising him under your own control is the best option, but there is a risk there.  

48 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

and wow he picked about he worst time possible to finally do something.  You'd think with that decade of waiting he could have had some kind of a playbook for Quentyn given a variety of contingencies.  But no, because the plot demanded it.

You send your son on a mission to marry a princess who has been dispossessed, who you want to use as an ally in overthrowing the murderous Lannisters.  In what world do you think your son is ever going to try to steal a dragon?  Personally, I think he simply misread Dany.  I don't see it as merely occurring "because the plot demanded it." 

48 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Eh, I agree largely with this.  They could and probably should have just left Dorne out given it frankly sucked.  

One thing I disagree with though - if they'd adapted it more closely Doran wouldn't have "shone" either.  Rather the glaring holes in his character would be even more obvious on screen than on the page.

With them cutting Aegon & Arrianne, as well as Quentyn, there is nothing there besides the Myrcella injury that seems to relate to the political plot.  If the sole purpose of that is to cause strife between Lannisters and Dorne (which is all the show did with it), have Myrcella's head in the snake box, with the scene spaced out enough into Season 5 (instead of early).  If the faith moves against Cersei quick enough, the repercussions are limited.  In an ideal world, you adjust the Tyrion trick earlier, and have her sent somewhere you're not cutting.  

I don't think he has glaring holes at all.  I think you (and a large portion of the fanbase) gets so caught up in the reputation of someone that they fail to look at what they actually are.  You're calling that disconnect "glaring holes," when in reality that's just the character being something other than their reputation (like Stannis or Tywin, for example).  

[Darryk]

I think he was an unfortunate casualty of the botched Dorne subplot. It's a shame because he would have been great in the role.

But there was no going back after the way season 5 ended. He comes across as a weak and ineffective ruler in season 5; there was no point trying to present him as a shrewd politician anymore, like he is in the books; that ship had sailed. So they stayed consistent with the way the show had portrayed him up to that point and gave him a fate appropriate to that.

Yeah, it would have been cool to see Alexander Siddig portray Doran from the books, but this wasn't Doran from the books, and the show's only obligated to stay consistent with its own portrayal of the characters, not with the book's portrayal. 

 

 

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

Shame, one of the best castings the show had. 

Dorne felt like they aborted everything to do the Sand coup in response to Sansa's rape outrage so they could have the season of Yaaaaasss Queeennnsss! Maybe Iron Islands too. I don't doubt that Cersei and Dany would end up where they are but the other two were so terribly handled.