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Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D: On the fringes of the MCU [Endgame spoilers pg. 19]


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16 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Likely?

I'm wondering if Fitz survives into another season now...

I'm sure he'll survive the Framework, because there's no way the show is going to forego all the pain and angst of Fitz back in the real world, dealing with all the guilt of remembering his FW self,  and how much that will mess up his relationship with Simmons. 

On the other hand, Mace would probably feel better knowing he was a real hero in the FW...so he is probably going to die.

Anyway, I figured Fitz would kill Agnes, because the show is always subverting the "Remember who you are"/"Power of Love/friendship" trope. Whenever there's a scene with someone trying to appeal to a brainwashed or indoctrinated person to stop doing evil things and gives a "this is not who you are, fight this!" speech - it never works out, and it ends terribly.

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Is the idea that this is exactly how the world would've turned out if each person in it 'fixed' one thing in their life? So May's was Bahrain, Fitz's is never meeting Simmons? Fair play to the show if they follow through with this, and have Fitz truly have to deal with the fact that he has it in him to be this evil.

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1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Is the idea that this is exactly how the world would've turned out if each person in it 'fixed' one thing in their life? So May's was Bahrain, Fitz's is never meeting Simmons?

Sort of. It's Aida's projection of how the world would have turned out, manipulated to suit her needs. As far as I'm aware it plays out in real time, so the real people were dropped into the roles Aida prepared for them, rather than actually living through all the events between their "fix" and the present and making their own decisions. Plenty of opportunity for Aida to make choices for people that they'd never have made in real life (starting with removing their regrets in the first place, since we know the real people didn't make the regret-avoiding choice outside the framework).

I don't think Fitz regrets meeting Simmons 8)

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2 hours ago, The BlackBear said:

An AIDA in the comics is Artificial Intelligence Data Analyser, I'm not sure that works here, but given Radcliffe initial intention of making her purely defensive, I'd take a guess at Artificial Intelligent Defence Android.

Oh shit, AIDA is from the comics?!? I thought she was just an MCU version of the Life Model Decoys. But she is more than an LMD from the get-go. I'm wondering if once this is all over SHIELD/Coulson will adapt the Radcliff tech for LMDs in future episodes? Or better yet, have Fury integrate it into the MCU films. Speaking of Fury, I'm still pissed they haven't addressed it in the show that Fury showed up in Age of Ultron with a Hellicarrier and crew of SHIELD agents. What up wid dat?

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1 hour ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

Oh shit, AIDA is from the comics?!? I thought she was just an MCU version of the Life Model Decoys. But she is more than an LMD from the get-go. I'm wondering if once this is all over SHIELD/Coulson will adapt the Radcliff tech for LMDs in future episodes? Or better yet, have Fury integrate it into the MCU films. Speaking of Fury, I'm still pissed they haven't addressed it in the show that Fury showed up in Age of Ultron with a Hellicarrier and crew of SHIELD agents. What up wid dat?

If I remember correctly, AIDA was actually a creation of Tom Thumb from the Squadron Supreme...

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16 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

Speaking of Fury, I'm still pissed they haven't addressed it in the show that Fury showed up in Age of Ultron with a Hellicarrier and crew of SHIELD agents. What up wid dat?

Coulson was working on a secret side project for most of the season before Age of Ultron came out.  Pretty sure that project was getting the hellicarrier in working order.  Dont really remember the specifics of it. It wasnt heavily stressed but they did address it briefly.

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On Wednesday, April 05, 2017 at 6:00 PM, The BlackBear said:
22 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

If I remember correctly, AIDA was actually a creation of Tom Thumb from the Squadron Supreme...

 

Yup.  

Changing subject - it's been days and I still am so irked at Daisy: a SHIELD agent revealing who she is inside a Hydra interrogation room.

(emphasis on SHIELD agent)

 

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On 14.4.2017. at 11:32 PM, SpaceChampion said:

No, I think Fitz's one thing changed was having a relationship with his dad.

Yes, he said in episode 4.16: "My father always said, you need trust to be betrayed." Sounds like his father stuck around and was a major (bad) influence on him, teaching him not to be open and trusting with people.

It would also explain why Fitz is the most changed - his divergence goes back to his childhood and fornative years, while it's only in adulthood for everyone else.

On 15.4.2017. at 1:38 AM, felice said:

Sort of. It's Aida's projection of how the world would have turned out, manipulated to suit her needs. As far as I'm aware it plays out in real time, so the real people were dropped into the roles Aida prepared for them, rather than actually living through all the events between their "fix" and the present and making their own decisions. Plenty of opportunity for Aida to make choices for people that they'd never have made in real life (starting with removing their regrets in the first place, since we know the real people didn't make the regret-avoiding choice outside the framework).

I don't think Fitz regrets meeting Simmons 8)

No, I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. We saw how it works with May: she was connected to the Framework and her memory of Bahrain was changed. Aida does not devise every single thing that happens in the Framework. She replicated the real world perfectly (according to Jed Whedon, the Darkhold gave her the ability to do that) and just fixed a few things - the biggest regrets of May, Coulson, Mack, Fitz and Mace. The rest is just how butterfly effect. It doesn't matter whether they lived through all of it in "real time", because to them it feels like they did, and it is what they would have done in those circumstances. 

As for the idea that "they wouldn't have made the regret-avoiding choice outside the Framework", that's incorrect - either they wish they had, which implies they at least think they would do it if they could go back (May not killing Katya, Coulson not joining SHIELD) or it's something that never was their decision to make in the first place (Mack's daughter not dying, Fitz' father sticking around, Mace actually being Inhuman).

At least that was what was changed at the time when first May (a month before everyone else) and then Agnes and later Coulson, Mack, Mace and Fitz were plugged in. (Radcliffe was also plughing himself intentionally in.) After that, Aida killed Radcliffe's physical body so he could never decide to destroy the Framework, appointed the LMD version of the Superior to protect it, and then created an avatar for herself as Madame Hydra (because that way she could be the most powerful person in that world) and plugged herself in, so she could experience human emotions, too. The only things that are really her needs are being in the FW, being powerful, hooking up with Fitz, and not allowing anyone to destroy the Framework. She has no reason to take an interest in anything else that's going on. Why would it be her need to have Mace being an Inhuman leader of the Resistance, or to have Ward working for the Resistance, or to have that student talk against Hydra, or to have another student excuse her lack of homework on her dad, or to have Julia be an artist, etc.?

Reasons why I believe that: 1) Word of God - Jed Whedon pretty much said all of that in interviews, that the Framework is a virtual AU that's a perfect duplicate of the real world with just a few things changed, and the avatars are acting as the real people would in these circumstances. (I'm on my phone so I can't post links and quotes, but I will later.)

And 2) this is what makes the storyline interesting. If it were a story about a fanfic video game controlled entirely by an android, with characters having no agency and making no choices of their own, it would be profoundly uninteresting.

 

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On 4/14/2017 at 9:02 PM, Jaxom 1974 said:

If I remember correctly, AIDA was actually a creation of Tom Thumb from the Squadron Supreme...

This makes me feel better for not knowing about AIDA in the comics as I never read a single issue of Squadron Supreme. It's not one my comic reading pals are into either, so that explains my knowledge gap there. However, I've got no excuse for the following...

On 4/15/2017 at 11:40 AM, mcbigski said:

Coulson was working on a secret side project for most of the season before Age of Ultron came out.  Pretty sure that project was getting the hellicarrier in working order.  Dont really remember the specifics of it. It wasnt heavily stressed but they did address it briefly.

You're 100% right. Theta Protocol! How could I have forgotten that? *sigh* Well, it really only was mentioned once after Age of Ultron in a S2 episode called "Scars." So I have a modicum of defense in that. I got lost browsing in that wiki for a bit. I'd also forgotten Jemma was a Hydra mole there for a while. Damn. So much has gone down in four seasons of this show.

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21 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

This makes me feel better for not knowing about AIDA in the comics as I never read a single issue of Squadron Supreme. It's not one my comic reading pals are into either, so that explains my knowledge gap there. However, I've got no excuse for the following...

You're 100% right. Theta Protocol! How could I have forgotten that? *sigh* Well, it really only was mentioned once after Age of Ultron in a S2 episode called "Scars." So I have a modicum of defense in that. I got lost browsing in that wiki for a bit. I'd also forgotten Jemma was a Hydra mole there for a while. Damn. So much has gone down in four seasons of this show.

It's completely understandable you forgot about the Theta Protocol. I did, too. I've been rewatching the show and have seen the last few episodes of season 2 last week (I'm in the back part of season 3 now, up to 3.17) and when the Theta Protocol was first mentioned, I think in episode 18 or 19, as one of the reasons the 'Real SHIELD' were suspecting Coulson (because it was one of the secrets he kept from everyone on the team, including May - she was upset when she learned he kept something as big a secret from her) I was like "wait, what was that?"... Then the next episode was the one after Age of Ultron, and they reveal it through a flashback, and then show Gonzales telling Coulson (they've made up in the meantime) that he can't question the man who helped defeat Ultron. It's easy to miss because they just introduce it in one episode and then quickly resolve it in the next by referring to stuff from the movie.

Not to mention that the show pretty much dropped the entire 'Real SHIELD' plot like a hot potato as soon as Gonzales died and never referred to it again, and in the end it has so few consequences it may not have happened at all. It's quite atypical, AoS usually deals with consequences and references past events.

I definitely did not forget about Simmons and Bobbi having been SHIELD moles in Hydra, though. That was a storyline played out over multiple episodes and the reason why Simmons was absent at the start of the season, and Bobbi's introduction. It was also where Simmons met Bakshi, her future murder victim. (Yet another season 2 plotline that got the "and let's never speak of it again" treatment.) 

Anyway, as I promised before, here are the quotes about the nature of the Framework from Jed Whedon's interviews:

 

Speaking of that, can you clarify the parameters of the Framework? Is it really an ideal world, as Aida and Radcliffe seem to think?

Yeah, I think that Radcliffe and Aida set out to duplicate the world, and with some of the info that Aida got from the Darkhold, they were able to do that. Now, the one change that they made was they plugged I think five people into it and repaired one regret for each of them, and that seems to have had a little bit of a ripple effect. We’ll get to learn more about the nature of that reality, but they were setting out to make our world. And it just seems when you change something, there’s a little bit of a butterfly effect. 

So putting Jemma aside, who is decidedly her own case as she is apparently dead, which character’s new life do you think will be most surprising to fans?

Well, that’s a little bit of a wait and see question. But one thing I can say is that the themes we’re exploring are sort of, are you different if you’re in a different situation? Or are you inherently the same person? Obviously, we see May standing without much fear in a Hydra building, seemingly like she’s on top of the world. And so the question is, is she still her? Or have her new experiences changed her enough to be someone else?

(...)

Okay, cool! So in terms of Ward, you definitely know how to keep the fandom churning! Is there a possibility that he will show up beyond the alternate universe, or is his role strictly in imaginary land?

Well, we’ll have to wait and see. But right now, there’s only five people in the Framework who actually have bodies in our world. [Ward] is a simulation, but he’s a simulation of exactly who he was. As Yo-Yo says, how do you populate a whole world? And Daisy very conveniently answers, “With the Darkhold.” It’s sort of our catch-all/fix-all solve this year, the Darkhold. It gave them this ability to sort of duplicate our world, so he is Grant Ward as we knew him.

Now, the world is different around him, and so whether or not he reacted the same to the changes in the world, we’ll see. But Grant Ward never enters the picture and makes things run smoother!

http://www.hypable.com/agents-of-shield-4x15-jed-whedon-interview/

Ward is a character who had a lot of different sides to him. Since he’s dead, we know that Aida didn’t brain scan him into the Framework. What is Aida basing her version of Ward on and how similar is this Ward to the one we knew before?

JW: Well, I think that the Darkhold has somehow given her the ability to duplicate our world. That's the good thing about moving into the Doctor Strange realm of “science we don't yet understand” being basically magic, is that we have a magic book right now that somehow gave them the ability to duplicate our world and populate it. I think that everybody who's in the world is just as they would've been in our world. Now, that doesn't mean that circumstances haven't changed because, as we know, they repaired a little bit. They tried to change just one little thing for each of our people and there seems to have been a ripple effect. How he reacts to this new environment and how empowered he feels by it and how dangerous he is is a question you'll have to wait to get the answer to.

http://comicbook.com/marvel/2017/02/23/agents-of-shield-jed-whedon-grant-ward-hydra-interview

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1 hour ago, Annara Snow said:

It's completely understandable you forgot about the Theta Protocol. I did, too. I've been rewatching the show and have seen the last few episodes of season 2 last week (I'm in the back part of season 3 now, up to 3.17) and when the Theta Protocol was first mentioned, I think in episode 18 or 19, as one of the reasons the 'Real SHIELD' were suspecting Coulson (because it was one of the secrets he kept from everyone on the team, including May - she was upset when she learned he kept something as big a secret from her) I was like "wait, what was that?"... Then the next episode was the one after Age of Ultron, and they reveal it through a flashback, and then show Gonzales telling Coulson (they've made up in the meantime) that he can't question the man who helped defeat Ultron. It's easy to miss because they just introduce it in one episode and then quickly resolve it in the next by referring to stuff from the movie.

Not to mention that the show pretty much dropped the entire 'Real SHIELD' plot like a hot potato as soon as Gonzales died and never referred to it again, and in the end it has so few consequences it may not have happened at all. It's quite atypical, AoS usually deals with consequences and references past events.

I definitely did not forget about Simmons and Bobbi having been SHIELD moles in Hydra, though....

Thanks for letting me off the hook about forgetting the Theta Protocol. ;)

And those Hydra episodes were the intro of Bobbi! I didn't think I'd miss Bobbi this much but I do. I even kinda miss Hunter. (Not really though.) But mostly Bobbi. :/

Back to the current storyline and the Matrix Framework, I wonder if Ghost Rider or another MCU figure will show up to take possession of the Darkhold by season's end. My guess is that's how the team will finally be able to exit the Framework. Fingers crossed it's Dr. Strange or one of the Ancient One's acolytes, but my guess is that's not going to happen and it'll be the GR.

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Another solid episode.

Spoiler

That was a sad, but worthy ending for the Patriot. I forgot that Mace was also put in the Framework, I thought he was just an NPC. Initially I thought that the reason why he was actually an Inhuman was because Aida didn't know about the serum, but it's clear now that him not really being the hero that people thought he was his biggest regret. 

I normally don't like alternate reality arcs in shows that already explore a fictional universe. The what ifs or whatever. But this episode made me appreciate this arc. I do wonder about the aftermath. There is a danger here on where they'll take the characters in the aftermath. Will they make them forget, so that they remember the people they were in the Framework, or will they remember everything? Forgetting will render this arc quite meaningless, so I don't think they'll do that. But allowing the characters to remember could easily result in a couple of episodes of seeing these characters wallow and sob in their misery. There is potential for some good character development, or a total crap fest.

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1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

Another solid episode.

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That was a sad, but worthy ending for the Patriot. I forgot that Mace was also put in the Framework, I thought he was just an NPC. Initially I thought that the reason why he was actually an Inhuman was because Aida didn't know about the serum, but it's clear now that him not really being the hero that people thought he was his biggest regret. 

I normally don't like alternate reality arcs in shows that already explore a fictional universe. The what ifs or whatever. But this episode made me appreciate this arc. I do wonder about the aftermath. There is a danger here on where they'll take the characters in the aftermath. Will they make them forget, so that they remember the people they were in the Framework, or will they remember everything? Forgetting will render this arc quite meaningless, so I don't think they'll do that. But allowing the characters to remember could easily result in a couple of episodes of seeing these characters wallow and sob in their misery. There is potential for some good character development, or a total crap fest.

Spoiler

 

It'll be interesting to see how they come out.  So far, eliminating their biggest regret will have have kind of worked out for most of them, either in the Framework or provide them some actual benefit when they get out.

Mack biggest regret was losing his daughter, he has come out the best so far, he's happy to have his daughter in the Framework.  If Jemma and Daisy pull him out, will he wallow in grief at losing his daughter again, or be thankful he now has years of memories of being happy with her and seeing her grow to enjoy?

May's regret was killing the girl in Bahrain.  The Framework gives her some closure if she gets out as she gets to see that she made the right choice in Bahrain, as the girl was too dangerous to let live.

Coulson regret appears to be joining SHIELD.   So as with May he gets some solace in that the world went to hell because he wasn't in SHIELD, so he should be fine on the outside.

Mace got to be the hero he wanted to be, rather than faking it,  but he paid the ultimate price for that satisfaction, a heroic death that carried over into the real world.

So Fitz is the big question mark.  His regret appears to have been not having his father's love and respect.  To get that he had to become a completely different person in the Framework.   If he comes back out.   How much of that ruthlessness will he retain, or if he doesn't retain it, how wracked by guilt will he feel for torturing and killing thousands of simulated people as well as torturing Daisy and Rackham and killing two real people (Mace and Agnes).

 

 


 

 

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