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Do we know what happened to Widow's Wail?

Aenarion

By Aenarion,
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Aenarion Freerider

Aenarion

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As per the title.

I never thought about it,  until I read a theory that it is in the "tapestries" that Littlefinger had sent to the Vale. Seems odd that Tywin would have forgotten about Joffrey's blade. . . especially given his obsession with House Lannister having a Valyrian steel blade (which makes him letting Jamie keep Oathkeeper very weird). 

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OtherFromAnotherMother Council Member

OtherFromAnotherMother

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3 hours ago, Aenarion said:

As per the title.

I never thought about it,  until I read a theory that it is in the "tapestries" that Littlefinger had sent to the Vale. Seems odd that Tywin would have forgotten about Joffrey's blade. . . especially given his obsession with House Lannister having a Valyrian steel blade (which makes him letting Jamie keep Oathkeeper very weird). 

There is a SSM where GRRM says it's in the red keep, waiting for Tommen ro be old enough to use it. I'll try and find it and post the link tomorrow. 

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Raisin' Bran Noble

Raisin' Bran

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59 minutes ago, 1000th Lord Commander said:

No, Widow's Wail is designed to be a king's blade. He'd never give that to Loras. I expect that Tommen gave Loras some ornamental blade as a symbol of his command rather than a true fighting weapon

Besides the fact that reportedly Loras used a Morningstar in storming the castle.

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dariopatke Council Member

dariopatke

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4 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Nothing is said explicitly, but Tommen does give Loras a "jewel encrusted blade" before he leaves KL to take Dragonstone. I'm not sure what sword changed hands, but Widow's Wail is possible, considering Tommen's affection for his Ser Loras.

But someone would notice it is WW, no chance Cersei would allow it.

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Ferocious Veldt Roarer Council Member

Ferocious Veldt Roarer

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2 hours ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

Besides the fact that reportedly Loras used a Morningstar in storming the castle.

Irrelevant, even if true. That means only that morning star, in his opinion, was the best tool for the particular task.

1 hour ago, dariopatke said:

But someone would notice it is WW, no chance Cersei would allow it.

Actually, it seems less incredible than one would think. It's entirely possible that nobody, except for an occasional servant dusting the armory, has seen Widow's Wail since Joffrey's wedding. Think about it. Joffy gets the sword from grandpa, he flaunts it around, he cuts a book, he cuts a cake, he drinks wine and he dies in the middle of his wedding feast. What happens to the sword, then? At the moment nobody cares, least of all Cersei. And she'll be preoccupied with other stuff for months.

So, in all probability the sword gets put in the royal armory and just lies there, untouched, forgotten. Sheathed. Out of sight, out of mind. Say, a year later Tommen wants to give his bro-in-law a cool gift, he goes to his armory, finds a sword with a pretty hilt and says: "that one, we give Loras that". If nobody happens to unsheathe the sword to behold the unique Valyrian blade, then nobody's the wiser. Including Cersei.

I'm not saying that is what happened, and I won't spend much energy arguing that it did. But it is a possibility, one of many.

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the trees have eyes Council Member

the trees have eyes

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1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Actually, it seems less incredible than one would think. It's entirely possible that nobody, except for an occasional servant dusting the armory, has seen Widow's Wail since Joffrey's wedding. Think about it. Joffy gets the sword from grandpa, he flaunts it around, he cuts a book, he cuts a cake, he drinks wine and he dies in the middle of his wedding feast. What happens to the sword, then? At the moment nobody cares, least of all Cersei. And she'll be preoccupied with other stuff for months.

So, in all probability the sword gets put in the royal armory and just lies there, untouched, forgotten. Sheathed. Out of sight, out of mind. Say, a year later Tommen wants to give his bro-in-law a cool gift, he goes to his armory, finds a sword with a pretty hilt and says: "that one, we give Loras that". If nobody happens to unsheathe the sword to behold the unique Valyrian blade, then nobody's the wiser. Including Cersei.

I'm not saying that is what happened, and I won't spend much energy arguing that it did. But it is a possibility, one of many.

I tend to think that whoever was responsible for the royal armory would understand that Widow's Wail was by far the most valuable and prestigious item there and not something to be given away, even if Tommen should be ignorant of it's importance.  I doubt it has been forgotten or is gathering dust like an old item in the family attic for Tommen to find and discard.  Tommen is king but a word in his ear that it is his birthright and to valuable to give away or, failing that, a discrete word to Cersei or any of the Council would put a stop to that.

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OtherFromAnotherMother Council Member

OtherFromAnotherMother

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7 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Do you think it's possible that it could be the blade Tommen gave Loras?

Here is the SSM: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2761

4th question from the top. 

You'll notice this SSM is from 2008. AFFC came out in 2005. Widow's Wail is in the Red Keep. 

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Ferocious Veldt Roarer Council Member

Ferocious Veldt Roarer

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47 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

I tend to think that whoever was responsible for the royal armory would understand that Widow's Wail was by far the most valuable and prestigious item there and not something to be given away, even if Tommen should be ignorant of it's importance.  I doubt it has been forgotten or is gathering dust like an old item in the family attic for Tommen to find and discard.  Tommen is king but a word in his ear that it is his birthright and to valuable to give away or, failing that, a discrete word to Cersei or any of the Council would put a stop to that.

But it wouldn't be exactly discarded, and it wouldn't be given away to some Joe Random from the street. It would be handed to a knight of the illustrious Kingsguard, queen's own brother, going to take possession of Dragonstone in king's name, so it would be perfectly appropriate to do so with the king's own sword.

Sure, Cersei would not have seen it that way. If someone had been brave enough to tell her, which means talk to her without being asked. What if she reacted with "Are you questioning the king's judgement?! Off with his head! Oh, but first have him gang-fucked by two dozen badgers"? She was batshit crazy, and had few friends, including her own Small Council (which composed of a handful of befuddled people, Qyburn and Aurane playing their own game, and Pycelle, probably the only one actually loyal to Cersei and House Lannister).

2 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Here is the SSM: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2761

4th question from the top. 

You'll notice this SSM is from 2008. AFFC came out in 2005. Widow's Wail is in the Red Keep. 

Ah, well. That would put an end to this theory, then.

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OtherFromAnotherMother Council Member

OtherFromAnotherMother

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22 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

Ah, well. That would put an end to this theory, then.

Heavy sarcasm: Wait! Ending a theory because of a lack of textual evidence? Ending a theory because GRRM said something contradicting said theory? Come on, maybe GRRM mis spoke.

No sarcasm: Wow! It's refreshing to see someone use common sense. Thanks Ferocious. You've restored a tiny bit of faith in these forums for me.

 

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dariopatke Council Member

dariopatke

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7 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Actually, it seems less incredible than one would think. It's entirely possible that nobody, except for an occasional servant dusting the armory, has seen Widow's Wail since Joffrey's wedding. Think about it. Joffy gets the sword from grandpa, he flaunts it around, he cuts a book, he cuts a cake, he drinks wine and he dies in the middle of his wedding feast. What happens to the sword, then? At the moment nobody cares, least of all Cersei. And she'll be preoccupied with other stuff for months.

So, in all probability the sword gets put in the royal armory and just lies there, untouched, forgotten. Sheathed. Out of sight, out of mind. Say, a year later Tommen wants to give his bro-in-law a cool gift, he goes to his armory, finds a sword with a pretty hilt and says: "that one, we give Loras that". If nobody happens to unsheathe the sword to behold the unique Valyrian blade, then nobody's the wiser. Including Cersei.

I'm not saying that is what happened, and I won't spend much energy arguing that it did. But it is a possibility, one of many.

But lions head with rubys, and if Tyrion saw swords, Cersei saw them, too. They all know how Oathkeeper and WW look like, even without blade.

Yes, ofc it is possible, but I think there are 85% chances it didnt happen and only 15% chances it did.

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Lost Melnibonean Council Member

Lost Melnibonean

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6 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Here is the SSM: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2761

4th question from the top. 

You'll notice this SSM is from 2008. AFFC came out in 2005. Widow's Wail is in the Red Keep. 

It's not waiting for Tommen, it's waiting for Jorah...

Quote

"Ser Jorah Mormont," she said, "first and greatest of my knights, I have no bride gift to give you, but I swear to you, one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel. And I would ask for your oath as well."

Daenerys X, Game 72

No one has ever seen anything like Widow’s Wail...

Quote

Tyrion cleared his throat. "My lord. You sent for me?"

His father glanced up. "I did. Come have a look at this." A bundle of oilcloth lay on the table between them, and Lord Tywin had a longsword in his hand. "A wedding gift for Joffrey," he told Tyrion. The light streaming through the diamond-shaped panes of glass made the blade shimmer black and red as Lord Tywin turned it to inspect the edge, while the pommel and crossguard flamed gold. "With this fool's jabber of Stannis and his magic sword, it seemed to me that we had best give Joffrey something extraordinary as well. A king should bear a kingly weapon."

...

Tyrion wondered where the metal for this one had come from. A few master armorers could rework old Valyrian steel, but the secrets of its making had been lost when the Doom came to old Valyria. "The colors are strange," he commented as he turned the blade in the sunlight. Most Valyrian steel was a grey so dark it looked almost black, as was true here as well. But blended into the folds was a red as deep as the grey. The two colors lapped over one another without ever touching, each ripple distinct, like waves of night and blood upon some steely shore. "How did you get this patterning? I've never seen anything like it."

Tyrion IV, Storm 32

Nor, it’s slightly larger twin, Oathkeeper...

Quote

"Brienne of Tarth." Jaime sighed. "I have a gift for you." He reached down under the Lord Commander's chair and brought it out, wrapped in folds of crimson velvet.

Brienne approached as if the bundle was like to bite her, reached out a huge freckled hand, and flipped back a fold of cloth. Rubies glimmered in the light. She picked the treasure up gingerly, curled her fingers around the leather grip, and slowly slid the sword free of its scabbard. Blood and black the ripples shone. A finger of reflected light ran red along the edge. "Is this Valyrian steel? I have never seen such colors."

"Nor I. There was a time that I would have given my right hand to wield a sword like that. Now it appears I have, so the blade is wasted on me. Take it."

Jaime IX, Storm 72

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Red Man Racey Squire

Red Man Racey

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It's not waiting for Tommen, it's waiting for Jorah...

Daenerys X, Game 72

No one has ever seen anything like Widow’s Wail...

Tyrion IV, Storm 32

Nor, it’s slightly larger twin, Oathkeeper...

Jaime IX, Storm 72

It would seem that if Jorah is to receive one of those two blades then Oathkeeper would be the more appropriate sword -- Widow's Wail was made smaller to better suit the young Joffrey (Oathkeeper was sized appropriately for a man grown) and the reference to "oath" in Dany's statement fits better with the larger blade as well.

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Lost Melnibonean Council Member

Lost Melnibonean

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3 minutes ago, Red Man Racey said:

It would seem that if Jorah is to receive one of those two blades then Oathkeeper would be the more appropriate sword -- Widow's Wail was made smaller to better suit the young Joffrey (Oathkeeper was sized appropriately for a man grown) and the reference to "oath" in Dany's statement fits better with the larger blade as well.

I wouldn't want to have to take it from Jaime's wench, though. 

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fire&blood Squire

fire&blood

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8 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Here is the SSM: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2761

4th question from the top. 

You'll notice this SSM is from 2008. AFFC came out in 2005. Widow's Wail is in the Red Keep. 

Can someone post the question and response? All I keep getting is an ad that blocks the content and I can't X it out.

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