Will the Dragons be relevant?

[chrisdaw]

Aegon will ride Rhaegal.

The dragons will die or transform. There will be no dragon to fight in TWFTD until Dany wakes the dragon from stone, and that will end the war. 

[spauldo17]

18 hours ago, Maester of Valyria said:

 

It's the most probable outcome: what else would dragon steel be?

 

 

I'm sorry, did you start talking about volcanoes?

Agreed: they call it obsidion in the books, it has all the same properties (ice-monster killing aside) that RL obsidion does, and it's found on Dragonstone (a volcano) and in the far north (highly geologically active).

 

It is almost certainly the same substance. People in Westeros don't call it 'volcanic glass' because they don't understand the processes by which a volcano works or how obsidian forms, and failing a scientific explanation dragons seem like a good one.

It's not made by dragons: remember Stannis talking about mining it on Dragonstone?

I agree with you about dragon steel, but I'm still not on board regarding the obsidian.  First off I don't think the book really details the properties of the book-obsidian so we can't say they are the same.  Secondly, you can't just say "it has the same properties, except for the whole monster killing thing"  That one difference right there is enough for me to say that they are different.  It's like saying the red priests are the same thing as this pastor I know who wears red sometimes except for the whole bring people back from the dead thing.  Book-obsidian may very well be based off of RL obsidian, but they already differ enough to say we have no idea what it's qualities are.

As a side note Stannis mining it at dragon stone doesn't prove anything.  Dragonstone was once the seat of the Targaryens, therefore there were dragons there.  We don't know enough to rule anything out.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

1 hour ago, spauldo17 said:

I agree with you about dragon steel, but I'm still not on board regarding the obsidian.  First off I don't think the book really details the properties of the book-obsidian so we can't say they are the same.  Secondly, you can't just say "it has the same properties, except for the whole monster killing thing"  That one difference right there is enough for me to say that they are different.  It's like saying the red priests are the same thing as this pastor I know who wears red sometimes except for the whole bring people back from the dead thing.  Book-obsidian may very well be based off of RL obsidian, but they already differ enough to say we have no idea what it's qualities are.

As a side note Stannis mining it at dragon stone doesn't prove anything.  Dragonstone was once the seat of the Targaryens, therefore there were dragons there.  We don't know enough to rule anything out.

Well... maybe our obsidian also has ice-monster-killing capabilities... Since we don't have any ice-monsters we'll never know 

I agree that we don't know enough about obsidian to say that it's thesame, but not enough to say that it is something completely different either. Just like I can't claim "obsidian is definitely made by volcanoes just like on earth, because it's found in volcanic areas" you can't claim "obsidian is definitely made by dragonfire, because you can't write  'dragonglass' without 'dragon'." We both have an ARGUMENT for it, but that doesn't mean we're RIGHT.

[Maester of Valyria]

3 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

I agree with you about dragon steel, but I'm still not on board regarding the obsidian.  First off I don't think the book really details the properties of the book-obsidian so we can't say they are the same.  Secondly, you can't just say "it has the same properties, except for the whole monster killing thing"  That one difference right there is enough for me to say that they are different.  It's like saying the red priests are the same thing as this pastor I know who wears red sometimes except for the whole bring people back from the dead thing.  Book-obsidian may very well be based off of RL obsidian, but they already differ enough to say we have no idea what it's qualities are.

As a side note Stannis mining it at dragon stone doesn't prove anything.  Dragonstone was once the seat of the Targaryens, therefore there were dragons there.  We don't know enough to rule anything out.

 

1 hour ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Well... maybe our obsidian also has ice-monster-killing capabilities... Since we don't have any ice-monsters we'll never know 

this

 

Obsidian is found in the far north, where there are no dragons but instead a large amount of volcanic activity. It is also found on Dragonstone, and in Valyria. This all point to it being formed volcanically and naturally.

Yes, RL obsidian cannot kill ice monsters, but that may only be because we don't have any ice monsters so we've never made the connection (thanks Ser Scott!). This is a world where mundane items from our world can be given magical properties, but that doesn't stop them from being the same substance as in our world.

[Clegane'sPup]

Jon and Sam can’t figure it out and it seems Martin isn’t telling.

 

 

DwD c.7 "Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?"

"I found mention of dragonglass. The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes.

The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night … or else night falls when they emerge.

Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true.

Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."

"We knew all this. The question is, how do we fight them?"

 

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed, and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian.

I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

"Dragonsteel?" The term was new to Jon. "Valyrian steel?"

 

Throughout the books the Others & their minions get active at night fall.

Are there any references in the ASOIAF that dragons fly about during the night. I know of one reference that two of Dany’s dragons hide in their hidey holes when it rains.

Besides an arrow through the eye do the dragons have any other weaknesses, say like rain which could have an impact upon cooling their bodies. Or perhaps a cold that is so cold that a flame can’t breathe, fire does need air.

If the Others are active in the night and they bring a cold so cold that fires can’t burn I don’t think that the dragons will be any help in defeating the Others.

On the other hand, I do think that Dany’s dragons will have a part to play in human battles. Some people want her dragons. Some people want her dragons dead.

There is Drogon, semi wild which Dany partially controls. The other two have built separate hidey holes and are being fed animals. They return to the same pit to eat.

I got all sorts of dragon possibilities flapping around in my imagination and not one of them is a confrontation with the Others.

"Cold?" Val laughed lightly. "No. When it is cold it will hurt to breathe. When the Others come …"

Har! What was that thing Jon mentioned as he was being stabbed? “Only the cold”, I just don't remember what time of day it was.

[NorthernXY]

On 9/28/2016 at 2:48 AM, GravyFace said:

GRRM's original plan didn't include dragons, but he was going to give Targaryens actual pyrokinetic abilities. So they didn't need dragons, they were going to be able to manipulate fire themselves. So instead of giving them that power, he gave them dragons instead. So it's very safe to say that dragons will be very relevant in the end, they are the stand-in for Targaryen superpowers basically.

I think I remember reading that, just didn't stick for some reason.

It's good that he went the way he otherwise there would be 100x more Dany haters because it would be almost a 1:1 of Others:Valyrians.  Harder to portray/trick people Dany is "good" when the Others are "evil" in a story about everything being grey.  Way too many show fans think Dany is going to save the world against the cold with fire, which would portray cold as evil and fire as good.

[NorthernXY]

On 9/27/2016 at 6:13 AM, Lord Vance II said:

And dragons aren't nukes. They're mortal and there are many times dragons have been killed by benign means (arrows in the gut, Scorpion bolt in the eye, storming of the Dragonpit, etc.) They're the most powerful weapon in the world, but not immortal. 

Most people just use the term "nuke" as just a reference to them being a complete game changer that nukes were in WWII.  A better analogy is an attack helicopter with near endless fuel and ammo.

 

On 9/28/2016 at 6:50 AM, spauldo17 said:

I think it's pretty safe to assume that the dragons will indeed wreck the Others.  Think about it, the only two things that can harm them are obsidian (called dragon glass, possibly forged by dragon fire)  and Valyrian steel (which is steel forged with dragon's fire)  It wouldn't make much sense for two items created from dragon's fire to harm them, but dragon's fire itself wouldn't.

Basic logic tells us the dragons will be a formidable weapon against the White Walkers. 

We still don't know how Valyrian steel is made.  It can be reforged without dragon fire so it doesn't make much sense for a dragon to heat up the steal once to make it magical forever.  Even Valyrian steel is beaten and folded dozens of times, it isn't heated up and poured.  A lot of people think it has to deal with sacrifice, like Nissa Nissa or made from special material from the moon like Dawn was made from a meteorite.

[cgrav]

In producing steel, heat is also needed to smelt the ore and remove impurities. Maybe that is the part of the process that required dragon fire in Valyrian steel, and the actual forging required -only- magic.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Besides an arrow through the eye do the dragons have any other weaknesses, say like rain which could have an impact upon cooling their bodies. Or perhaps a cold that is so cold that a flame can’t breathe, fire does need air.

Well, as was mentioned by Macgregor, dragons at least have difficulties during storms, but this seems to have more to do with flying than with fire-breathing. When Vhagar battled Arrax during the Dance of the Dragons, the dragons seemed to have been able to spit fire, while Arrax wasn't able to fly away due to the storm.

I really like the idea that the Others would make it so cold that the dragons wouldn't be able to use their fire, elsewhise it would at least be really easy for the dragons to destroy the army of the Others mostly consisting of wights. There is no evidence that this is the case though. And your quote stating fire will dismay them makes me think it is not, though it also makes me think that while dragonfire may dismay them, it will not actually kill them.

[Light a wight tonight]

Two things. 

First, the Dance of Dragons included real dragons but the ones actually referred to were Targareyns. DoD Part Deux will be Dany against some other Targ, real or bogus.

Second, the dragons would be devastating against wights, as the antifreeze that runs in their veins is highly flammable. We don't know how well they would do against White Walkers, who seem to be able to suck the heat out of the environment. 

To me having dragons save the day against the White Walkers cheapens the story and negates the theme of the Last Hero/Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai. Martin admires JRR Tolkien but he's not going to write a "The dragons are coming! The dragons are coming!" scene. 

[Kaibaman]

If we are to believe that weirwood arrows and water magic can take down dragons then it is likely the Others have something similar in their arsenal that will combat Dany's dragons as well. Don't know if they could make arrows out of weirwood trees or even know how to use a bow and arrow. But those icy blades they have that can shatter ordinary steel could potentially cut through the thick hide of dragons. Maybe they have magical harpoon guns using their icicle weapons. Furthermore we know the Others can use ice magic and like the water wizards of the Rhoynar they might be able to summon powerful blizzards to take down dragons flying overhead.

[cgrav]

I agree that it's pretty bad form to spend 7 books watching an obvious, predictable, and inevitable victory happen. The solution is going to be something that characters actually have to think of, and it will be plot climax for several characters, so having thermonuclear dragons just swoop in would nullify thousands of pages of awesome character development. 

I was just listing random thoughts earlier in this thread, but now I'm really wondering if the Wall has some effect on the dragons. Maybe they'll have to take down the Wall to get the dragons north, or it will prevent them from passing entirely. 
 

[chrisdaw]

Rhaegal will probably die with Aegon, killed by Drogon/Dany.

Jon's northern crew will bring down Viserion when he comes south.

Euron will corrupt and turn Drogon into something other than a dragon.

The dragons will be a non factor come TWFTD, that's kind of the point, had the realm not bickered amongst itself they could have had three dragons go roast the Others before lunch. Though Jon will be aware what he's doing, he'll just think he has no choice.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

8 hours ago, cgrav said:

I was just listing random thoughts earlier in this thread, but now I'm really wondering if the Wall has some effect on the dragons. Maybe they'll have to take down the Wall to get the dragons north, or it will prevent them from passing entirely. 
 

It could be. But to have some impact on the story, the Others need to get south of the Wall, so I don't think it's that important if the dragons can't pass the Wall. Unless you think that's how they get past...

 

7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Rhaegal will probably die with Aegon, killed by Drogon/Dany.

Jon's northern crew will bring down Viserion when he comes south.

Euron will corrupt and turn Drogon into something other than a dragon.

The dragons will be a non factor come TWFTD, that's kind of the point, had the realm not bickered amongst itself they could have had three dragons go roast the Others before lunch. Though Jon will be aware what he's doing, he'll just think he has no choice.

That's all very interesting, I could see some of this happen. Can you back this theory up?

[chrisdaw]

28 minutes ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

That's all very interesting, I could see some of this happen. Can you back this theory up?

Aegon riding Rhaegal goes to the first dance between the blacks and greens. Dany defeating Aegon comes from the slayer of lies cloth dragon HOTU vision, and the scene of Rhaegal trying unsuccessfully to steal the meat from Drogon, for which Dany smacks him.

The first page of the current moments of foreshadowing topic has the north vs Viserion stuff.

First topic in my signature has the Drogon transformation.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

11 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Aegon riding Rhaegal goes to the first dance between the blacks and greens. Dany defeating Aegon comes from the slayer of lies cloth dragon HOTU vision, and the scene of Rhaegal trying unsuccessfully to steal the meat from Drogon, for which Dany smacks him.

The first page of the current moments of foreshadowing topic has the north vs Viserion stuff.

First topic in my signature has the Drogon transformation.

Thanks. Great stuff!

Rhaegal made sense to me and I think I read your theory on Euron and Drogon once, though I will definitely check up on it, but Jon killing Viserion was new to me.

[spauldo17]

22 hours ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Well... maybe our obsidian also has ice-monster-killing capabilities... Since we don't have any ice-monsters we'll never know 

I agree that we don't know enough about obsidian to say that it's thesame, but not enough to say that it is something completely different either. Just like I can't claim "obsidian is definitely made by volcanoes just like on earth, because it's found in volcanic areas" you can't claim "obsidian is definitely made by dragonfire, because you can't write  'dragonglass' without 'dragon'." We both have an ARGUMENT for it, but that doesn't mean we're RIGHT.

Now that you've said this, it's all I want in life.  I so badly hope that our obsidian can kill ice monsters.  So when those icy fockers show up we'll be ready

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

7 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

Now that you've said this, it's all I want in life.  I so badly hope that our obsidian can kill ice monsters.  So when those icy fockers show up we'll be ready

Maybe next book we get an explanation on how to make them, so we can test if it works. I tried the show version, but Kevin just died, so I don't know if i did something wrong or GRRM didn't explain the full ritual to D&D... 

[Maester of Valyria]

20 hours ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Maybe next book we get an explanation on how to make them, so we can test if it works. I tried the show version, but Kevin just died, so I don't know if i did something wrong or GRRM didn't explain the full ritual to D&D... 

Maybe it only works if you're a Child of the Forest?

[GravyFace]

On September 29, 2016 at 11:52 AM, NorthernXY said:

Most people just use the term "nuke" as just a reference to them being a complete game changer that nukes were in WWII.  A better analogy is an attack helicopter with near endless fuel and ammo.

 

We still don't know how Valyrian steel is made.  It can be reforged without dragon fire so it doesn't make much sense for a dragon to heat up the steal once to make it magical forever.  Even Valyrian steel is beaten and folded dozens of times, it isn't heated up and poured.  A lot of people think it has to deal with sacrifice, like Nissa Nissa or made from special material from the moon like Dawn was made from a meteorite.

GRRM said himself Valyrian steel is forged in dragon fire. Sure there may be other elements of magic, so it's not the only ingredient, but it's definitely one of the ingredients.