Dead or Somewhat Dead

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

53 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I'd go with level 2.  Never really dead, but being kept alive unnaturally....................... and BLUE!!!

Wait, do you mean now? As in post DwD? Or as they were before Dany's visit?

post DwD: Dead.  pre Dany visit: level 2.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

46 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

My 2 cents on Dany in relation to this thread. 

I don't think we should be including here at all here.  She never "died".  She had a moment where she survived flames and fire and walked out.  GRRM had this to say about the funeral pyre moment: 

If we are including her because she starts a "2nd life" after the pyre this is a bad road for us to go down.  Then we would have to include a lot of people who started "2nd lives" (Theon, Jaime, Arya, Sansa, etc.....)

 

I thought Dany was included because she "died" while giving birth and revived/kept alive by MMD's magic.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

7 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I thought Dany was included because she "died" while giving birth and revived/kept alive by MMD's magic.

I'm pretty sure Dany never "died" while giving berth.  She was sick and MMD was giving her some sort of substance to help with pain, which caused visions, but never dead.  If there is some excerpts from GoT which show otherwise I'd love to see them but I've never got the impression Dany was close to death at this time.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I'm pretty sure Dany never "died" while giving berth.  She was sick and MMD was giving her some sort of substance to help with pain, which caused visions, but never dead.  If there is some excerpts from GoT which show otherwise I'd love to see them but I've never got the impression Dany was close to death at this time.

I never thought she died either, until I saw her on the list (like 18 hours ago). And then I only surmised the rest.

[Curled Finger]

I thought she died, but was reborn in the fire, unlike resurrected, reanimated or resuscitated.   Her hair burned.   Her clothes burned.  Her husband and child died and dragons were born.   I read somewhere that GRRM said this was a once in a thousand years honest to goodness miracle.   Surely Miri Mas Dur could have been the 3rd death to pay for the dragons lives, but I always thought it was Dany.   We all read this differently.   I don't know that we will ever truly know for sure.  It's a nuanced thing.   No one can be right or wrong in this one.  

Then again I never thought Gregor died but I was convinced Victarion had.  Look at all the arguments on all 4 sides of that thinking.

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

My 2 cents on Dany in relation to this thread. 

I don't think we should be including here at all here.  She never "died".  She had a moment where she survived flames and fire and walked out.  GRRM had this to say about the funeral pyre moment: 

You are correct, but I said from the start that I treat this far more from a symbolical pov. Theon indeed could fit into my chart, whose ID dies in the Dreadfort dungeons and is reborn in WF (though I suspect is unstable), as would Rickon who is dead but alive, etc. And I think Arya might be considered being dead as well. I just didn't put them up there yet, because we did not have a "rebirth" moment for them yet. Being twice born also means having twice died, even if death was not physical. I'm taking an Orphic approach here.

@Curled Finger Agreed on Victarion. Perhaps I should add him also with the "in fire" but a question mark.

And yes, my list was never meant to "improve" on Yaya's, which is very valuable. It just takes a completely different approach and regards "death" and "rebirth" from a complete different angle. It has helped me to wonder what happened to Mel long ago, and I highly suspect it was actually a drowning, a shipwreck across the Narrow Sea.  

[Marylou]

Hi everyone,

 

interesting thread, unfortunately don't have the time to read it all properly. Hope I don't embarass myself if all this has been said before.....

I thought about this blood thing earlier, but  I think is is not about the color, it is all about the smoke that signals magic involved.  R'hllor is a fake god like all the others, it is simple magic happening in different forces, used intentionally or not.  

Altough magic can be summoned, it happens anyway if some special parameters are given. To which extend the magic ressurects and why, I don't know. Maybe it is all about the determination of the one who summons it. 

What unites them all is death, being dead or near death experience, or being a magic creature like the dragons.

'Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell. The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other's grip.' ' When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked. ' A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

"Stannis grasped the second. "The usurper," he declared, louder this time. "Balon Greyjoy." He flipped it lightly onto the brazier, and its flesh split and cracked. The blood burst from it, hissing and smoking. "A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"In the close confines of the iron cage, he was acutely aware of the red woman's presence. She even smells red. The scent reminded him of Mikken's forge, of the way iron smelled when red-hot; the scent was smoke and blood. " A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

"A thin wisp of smoke was rising from the horn, and the priest saw blood and blisters upon the lips of the man who'd sounded it. The bird on his chest was bleeding too." A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man

"When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame." A Dance with Dragons - Jon III
 

"The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. " A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

 "His spear remained in Drogon's back, wobbling as the dragon beat his wings. Smoke rose from the wound." " Smoke rose between his teeth. His blood was smoking too, where it dripped upon the ground. " A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IX

"He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester."  A Dance with Dragons, The Iron Suitor      (Alright, in this case it is probably the charred flesh that is still smoking)

 

No quotes for Beric Dondarrion needed, I believe.
 

And now the most important one:

"Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking." A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Considering the smoking blood is an equivalent to magic happening or a trait of magic beings (dragons, wights,Others), Jon is either  already involved in some kind of magical act or this is a sign of him being part of magic himself. His wounds are smoking like Drogons wounds.  And these are the only two incidents a wound is smoking. 

So I am sure of oe thing: Jon might be dead, but he will come back.

But what does this make of Jon? We haven't seen Dany bleeding from a wound yet. A period is no wound so don't cout that in

 

But there is another thing that smokes instead of steams: the pools in Winterfell. And we all agree that there is some serious magic going on.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

You are correct, but I said from the start that I treat this far more from a symbolical pov. Theon indeed could fit into my chart, whose ID dies in the Dreadfort dungeons and is reborn in WF (though I suspect is unstable), as would Rickon who is dead but alive, etc. And I think Arya might be considered being dead as well. I just didn't put them up there yet, because we did not have a "rebirth" moment for them yet. Being twice born also means having twice died, even if death was not physical. I'm taking an Orphic approach here.  

Fair enough. I was thinking we were doing a more literal form of dead. But hey, the more the merrier. Wait, can it be merrier if everyone is dead?.....

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Fair enough. I was thinking we were doing a more literal form of dead. But hey, the more the merrier. Wait, can it be merrier if everyone is dead?.....

Well, Southerners do not regard people of the North as "merry" They're called frozen-faced.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, Marylou said:

Hi everyone,

 

interesting thread, unfortunately don't have the time to read it all properly. Hope I don't embarass myself if all this has been said before.....

I thought about this blood thing earlier, but  I think is is not about the color, it is all about the smoke that signals magic involved.  R'hllor is a fake god like all the others, it is simple magic happening in different forces, used intentionally or not.  

Altough magic can be summoned, it happens anyway if some special parameters are given. To which extend the magic ressurects and why, I don't know. Maybe it is all about the determination of the one who summons it. 

What unites them all is death, being dead or near death experience, or being a magic creature like the dragons.

'Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell. The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other's grip.' ' When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked. ' A Storm of Swords - Samwell I

"Stannis grasped the second. "The usurper," he declared, louder this time. "Balon Greyjoy." He flipped it lightly onto the brazier, and its flesh split and cracked. The blood burst from it, hissing and smoking. "A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"In the close confines of the iron cage, he was acutely aware of the red woman's presence. She even smells red. The scent reminded him of Mikken's forge, of the way iron smelled when red-hot; the scent was smoke and blood. " A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

"A thin wisp of smoke was rising from the horn, and the priest saw blood and blisters upon the lips of the man who'd sounded it. The bird on his chest was bleeding too." A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man

"When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame." A Dance with Dragons - Jon III
 

"The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. " A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

 "His spear remained in Drogon's back, wobbling as the dragon beat his wings. Smoke rose from the wound." " Smoke rose between his teeth. His blood was smoking too, where it dripped upon the ground. " A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IX

"He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester."  A Dance with Dragons, The Iron Suitor      (Alright, in this case it is probably the charred flesh that is still smoking)

 

No quotes for Beric Dondarrion needed, I believe.
 

And now the most important one:

"Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking." A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Considering the smoking blood is an equivalent to magic happening or a trait of magic beings (dragons, wights,Others), Jon is either  already involved in some kind of magical act or this is a sign of him being part of magic himself. His wounds are smoking like Drogons wounds.  And these are the only two incidents a wound is smoking. 

So I am sure of oe thing: Jon might be dead, but he will come back.

But what does this make of Jon? We haven't seen Dany bleeding from a wound yet. A period is no wound so don't cout that in

 

But there is another thing that smokes instead of steams: the pools in Winterfell. And we all agree that there is some serious magic going on.

Good stuff. I, too, am more suspicious of "smoking" blood over "black blood". Blood may look black in any darker environment. Think where Beric and Mel are when we see their black blood. But smoking blood? Much more intense IMO.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, Southerners do not regard people of the North as "merry" They're called frozen-faced.

Wait! Is everyone above the neck dead? (Head starts spinning). 

 

 

 

I'm kidding of course.

[sweetsunray]

Just now, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Wait! Is everyone above the neck dead? (Head starts spinning). 

 

 

 

I'm kidding of course.

At the start of aGoT, everything above the Neck is indicated to be "underworld", and in the "underworld" usually only the "dead live". The "living" can mostly pay a visit. And no, I'm not kidding. Here's the essay that makes a case for it in the first half: Hades of Winterfell and the North (though it will probably help to read the Persephone essay as well)

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

At the start of aGoT, everything above the Neck is indicated to be "underworld", and in the "underworld" usually only the "dead live". The "living" can mostly pay a visit. And no, I'm not kidding. Here's the essay that makes a case for it in the first half: Hades of Winterfell and the North (though it will probably help to read the Persephone essay as well)

I've skimmed through that before. Very interesting stuff. However, my personal view on the differences between the North and the rest of Westeros is that GRRM wants the reader to understand how different life is for northerners. Harder lives, harder people. We see this in the differences between Stannis's retainers from the South and the Northmen he recruits from the mountain clans when they are marching on Winterfell. We also see it in Winterfell at this time. Theon makes several remarks on how the Southerners haven't seen real winters, etc. 

While the article is awesome and I admit I only skimmed it a few weeks ago I think GRRM is only trying to make us see the differences between the people of the North and the rest of Westeros. 

[sweetsunray]

30 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I've skimmed through that before. Very interesting stuff. However, my personal view on the differences between the North and the rest of Westeros is that GRRM wants the reader to understand how different life is for northerners. Harder lives, harder people. We see this in the differences between Stannis's retainers from the South and the Northmen he recruits from the mountain clans when they are marching on Winterfell. We also see it in Winterfell at this time. Theon makes several remarks on how the Southerners haven't seen real winters, etc. 

While the article is awesome and I admit I only skimmed it a few weeks ago I think GRRM is only trying to make us see the differences between the people of the North and the rest of Westeros. 

You could regard it as such, but the manner in which he has the Stark kids survive and find strength in places like HoBaW, wintry Eyrie, in a cave so far North that one must feed on wights, and actually discover their magical powers in exactly such a setting, just like Ned's damnation in the dungeon of 8 people has already come half true, and Catelyn's new form of LS says there's more to it.

The reason I'm personally less interested in the literal death and resurrection is because George has indicated he's not writing magic in a scientific way. He won't explain how fire magic, or shadow magic of Asshai works. But that does not mean he does not use a certain logic and rules to it. I deeply suspect he uses mythologial logic instead. It gives him a framework, but without needing to go into magic x works y way (such as in the Wheel of Time series).

For example, the way I listed the survivors/resurrected/healed you notice immediately why Drogo would never have worked. Sure, MMD raised shadows dancing around a fire, but Drogo is not on a body of water, and he isn't being treated in some cave or a dungeon, or an area remotely tied to chthonic references. MMD may have used the right shadow-blood magic, but it was applied at the wrong location. Perhaps they should have dug a pit in the earth and have MMD perform it there? Certain magic (especially fire magic) seems necessary, but only in a chthonic location (underground, underworld, sea-river related). The sole person who accomplished a feat in being reborn/survive an otherwise certain death that is unrelated to subaquatic or subterranean locations was Dany in fire. Of course the Christian underworld is a hell of fire and brimstone. 

I don't think we are necessarily meant to "see" this as readers, but it is more what George uses as framework. Your interpretation is one on the story-level. I'm looking at the meta-level. Yours does not negate mine,nor does mine negate yours. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

40 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You could regard it as such, but the manner in which he has the Stark kids survive and find strength in places like HoBaW, wintry Eyrie, in a cave so far North that one must feed on wights, and actually discover their magical powers in exactly such a setting, just like Ned's damnation in the dungeon of 8 people has already come half true, and Catelyn's new form of LS says there's more to it.

The reason I'm personally less interested in the literal death and resurrection is because George has indicated he's not writing magic in a scientific way. He won't explain how fire magic, or shadow magic of Asshai works. But that does not mean he does not use a certain logic and rules to it. I deeply suspect he uses mythologial logic instead. It gives him a framework, but without needing to go into magic x works y way (such as in the Wheel of Time series).

For example, the way I listed the survivors/resurrected/healed you notice immediately why Drogo would never have worked. Sure, MMD raised shadows dancing around a fire, but Drogo is not on a body of water, and he isn't being treated in some cave or a dungeon, or an area remotely tied to chthonic references. MMD may have used the right shadow-blood magic, but it was applied at the wrong location. Perhaps they should have dug a pit in the earth and have MMD perform it there? Certain magic (especially fire magic) seems necessary, but only in a chthonic location (underground, underworld, sea-river related). The sole person who accomplished a feat in being reborn/survive an otherwise certain death that is unrelated to subaquatic or subterranean locations was Dany in fire. Of course the Christian underworld is a hell of fire and brimstone. 

I don't think we are necessarily meant to "see" this as readers, but it is more what George uses as framework. Your interpretation is one on the story-level. I'm looking at the meta-level. Yours does not negate mine,nor does mine negate yours. 

Agreed on all fronts. This is a major reason why ASoIaF is so great. It can be enjoyed by people of different backgrounds, experiences, and viewpoints. 

Personally, I'm a fan of historical fiction and probably look at the series from this lense. Others view through a different lense and it's all groovy.

[Clegane'sPup]

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It sure has brought some interesting things to light hasn't it? 

Yes, it has. I enjoy reading threads that have free flowing participation.

[Curled Finger]

@Marylou, very nice focus on the smoking blood.   I've been remiss to ignore that completely as I've sort of relegated it to an after effect of Fire Magic.   Your Northern examples with no Red Priests in sight indicates that I'm way off in that thinking.   Wow.  Nice nice nice.   Please allow me to ask then, as I see all the "gods" in series "true" to their worshipers.  Do you think the Others are The Great Other since it's obvious R'hllor's followers do indeed control some magic?   I can't even narrow it down to degrees of faith since Thoros was essentially an apostate up to the point he gave Beric Dondarrian the ritual kiss of life.  

That's some great stuff.   I hope you will have time to read through the thread and maybe add to your thoughts in this.   

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

You are correct, but I said from the start that I treat this far more from a symbolical pov. Theon indeed could fit into my chart, whose ID dies in the Dreadfort dungeons and is reborn in WF (though I suspect is unstable), as would Rickon who is dead but alive, etc. And I think Arya might be considered being dead as well. I just didn't put them up there yet, because we did not have a "rebirth" moment for them yet. Being twice born also means having twice died, even if death was not physical. I'm taking an Orphic approach here.

@Curled Finger Agreed on Victarion. Perhaps I should add him also with the "in fire" but a question mark.

And yes, my list was never meant to "improve" on Yaya's, which is very valuable. It just takes a completely different approach and regards "death" and "rebirth" from a complete different angle. It has helped me to wonder what happened to Mel long ago, and I highly suspect it was actually a drowning, a shipwreck across the Narrow Sea.  

I did set Dany aside at the outside because I consider her miracle to be a rebirth.   And other characters who have danced on the edge of death and seem to be more "reborn" than resuscitated, reanimated or resurrected.   I can't put my finger on what exactly happened to Gregor and tend to find his mechanical sort of life more a reanimation in my simple reckoning of the differences between these lives beyond death.  It wouldn't be a bad thing to close this topic with some hard definitions for all of these re life states.   

The point is only that Dany did survive, endure or undergo something very different from Beric or Varamyr or the wights.   She gets her own special sort of category and though I suspect other characters have suffered, enjoyed or achieved something similar to her miracle and may be added to her category.  I'm not ready to make that full commitment yet.   You're leaving her alone in your symbolic Chart of the Dead suits my conversation just fine.   

[Blackfyre Bastard]

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

At the start of aGoT, everything above the Neck is indicated to be "underworld", and in the "underworld" usually only the "dead live". The "living" can mostly pay a visit. And no, I'm not kidding. Here's the essay that makes a case for it in the first half: Hades of Winterfell and the North (though it will probably help to read the Persephone essay as well)

What a great coincidence that I've re-reading ADwD and I found this during the chapter in which fArya marries Ramsay in Winterfell's godswood:

Quote

The mists were so thick that only the nearest trees were visible; beyond them stood tall shadows and faint lights. Candles flickered beside the wandering path and back amongst the trees, pale fireflies floating in a warm grey soup. It felt like some strange underworld, some timeless place between the worlds, where the damned wandered mournfully for a time before finding their way down to whatever hell their sins had earned them. Are we all dead, then? Did Stannis come and kill us in our sleep? Is the battle yet to come, or has it been fought and lost?

ADwD - The Prince of Winterfell

That's definitely an image of Hades relating to Winterfell (and the Northmen).

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

What a great coincidence that I've re-reading ADwD and I found this during the chapter in which fArya marries Ramsay in Winterfell's godswood:

ADwD - The Prince of Winterfell

That's definitely an image of Hades relating to Winterfell (and the Northmen).

Definitely a nice one! Doozey of a quote! You made my day

And it's a typical quote full of chthonic lexicon:

The mists were so thick that only the nearest trees were visible; beyond them stood tall shadows and faint lights. Candles flickered beside the wandering path and back amongst the trees, pale fireflies floating in a warm grey soup. It felt like some strange underworld, some timeless place between the worlds, where the damned wandered mournfully for a time before finding their way down to whatever hell their sins had earned them. Are we all dead, then? Did Stannis come and kill us in our sleep? Is the battle yet to come, or has it been fought and lost?

ETA: It's so apt, that I actually added it in the Hades esay where I explain how you can have living characters in the books being the dead of the underworld, and giving you courtesy for the quote.