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U.S. Elections: Apocalypse upon the horizon


lokisnow

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4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

In general, given the low rates of false reporting and the high rates of victims not coming forward, I tend to give the alleged victim the benefit of the doubt. 

That said, you're looking at this from the wrong direction. If I'm looking at your behavior then I'd assume that I'd react based on tribalism. If I liked you I'd defend you and if I didn't I would crush you. But that's not what I asked you Scot. I asked you to try and empathize with Clinton and how would you act if you were in her shoes. And I think most people would act exactly like she did. Scorched Earth. 

Perhaps.  I don't know. I'm not really a "scorched Earth" sort of person.  I hope like hell I never have to deal with a situation like the one you describe.

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1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

DG,

What I can't wrap my brain around is that there are people who admire Trump.  Who find his antics "refreshing"?  People in my own family.  I've disliked Trump for decades.  His demeanor is like fingernails down a chalkboard.

The GOP has been training it's rank-and-file for years to reject expertise, to be suspicious of women, to fear people of color, and to hate the government no matter what it provides them. I think the biggest surprise should be that we didn't have a Trump earlier.

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2 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

The GOP has been training it's rank-and-file for years to reject expertise, to be suspicious of women, to fear people of color, and to hate the government no matter what it provides them. I think the biggest surprise should be that we didn't have a Trump earlier.

Is Trump "anti big government"?  His "Wall", his plan to deport all illegals, his nastiness toward American Muslims and Muslims in general all seem pretty "big government" to me.

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3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is Trump "anti big government"?  His "Wall", his plan to deport all illegals, his nastiness toward American Muslims and Muslims in general all seem pretty "big government" to me.

Are conservatives generally anti big government though? Or do they use that as code language to attack things they don't like social security and medicare. and maybe the 1964 Civil rights act, because they've never considered those things as being legitimate.

But rather having the courage to just come out say they are against them, because they know they would get pounded in the polls, they just make little innuendos about "big government".

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23 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You don't find her actions inconsistent with her statements about women who make allegations of rape or Harassment?

As a feminist she may have expressed sympathies with victims, but for her personally, I dont think she has sympathy for Monica. I'm okay with Hillary being multifaceted enough to carry a few dual outlooks on matters that she sees as less than black and white. 

1. The matter is surely personal for her so she's entitled to manage it as she sees fit. Her marraige, her approach. Just because she's a public figure doesnt mean the public is entitled to dictate how she has to live her private moments.

2. As difficult as this is to accept for many feminists, there are many, many (probably millions) of people that do not hold the viewpoint that Monica was the victim in the arrangement. Over half the people I know believe Monica was not only a actor but also a coached one and one with an agenda. I think both Clintons in their roles as standard bearers to a large party, are aware that they must be ever vigilant against detractors. And that those detractors are adversaries to be defeated first and foremost. I think the Clintons view it as a responsibility of their positions to fight back against those that attack them in their position as standard bearers and that those adversaries should be given no quarter. Thats why there is a dual nature and multifaceted approach necessitated here from Hillary. She cannot be both the pitbull and the coddler in the situation she was put in. So she has chosen to be the pitbull.

I'm okay with that, Hillary doesnt have to feel sorry for Monica or accept Monica's version of events. The courts make exeptions for spouses not having to testify against each other for this exact reason. It's unreasonable to expect family to side against family/spouse. 

Hillary is ride or die with her family, I'm so not troubled by that. Most of the people I know are exactly the same way. 

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6 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

The GOP has been training it's rank-and-file for years to reject expertise, to be suspicious of women, to fear people of color, and to hate the government no matter what it provides them. I think the biggest surprise should be that we didn't have a Trump earlier.

It's not just political. I'd argue that the media in general sells the story of the brash hypercompetent maverick who "tells it like it is", weighed down by the evil bureaucrats. It's a little aspirational narcissism. 

People loathing politicians doesn't help. 

 

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5 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Are conservatives generally anti big government though? Or do they use that as code language to attack things they don't like social security and medicare. and maybe the 1964 Civil rights act, because they've never considered those things as being legitimate.

But rather having the courage to just come out say they are against them, because they know they would get pounded in the polls, they just make little innuendos about "big government".

Some are, some aren't.  It is code language for "stuff we don't like" for many.  Look at the "keep your hands off my Medicare" signs in the lead up to the ADA vote.  It is very inconsistent.

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5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is Trump "anti big government"?  His "Wall", his plan to deport all illegals, his nastiness toward American Muslims and Muslims in general all seem pretty "big government" to me.

I don't think Trump is anything but ego, but he plays upon conservative loathing of government in making his case for the presidency. How many times in the debate did he deride politicians, as if that is a terrible thing? Well, to conservatives, it is. So while Trump himself likely doesn't care about the size of government, he isn't above using the boogeyman of big government to rally support.

Essentially, the GOP has trained a bunch of suckers, and Trump is just a better con man than most.

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2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Some are, some aren't.  It is code language for "stuff we don't like" for many.  Look at the "keep your hands off my Medicare" signs in the lead up to the ADA vote.  It is very inconsistent.

Yes, what the rise of Trump has shown is that many of the rank and file of the Republican party didn't find some new found appreciation for Ayn Rand back in 2009 or so. It was more about, "we want to keep the 'socialism' for ourselves!!"

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5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is Trump "anti big government"?  His "Wall", his plan to deport all illegals, his nastiness toward American Muslims and Muslims in general all seem pretty "big government" to me.

You have already put more thought in it than most Trump fans. They don't want an actual small government because "small government" is Reaganite code for "government that only helps white Christians."

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9 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is Trump "anti big government"?  His "Wall", his plan to deport all illegals, his nastiness toward American Muslims and Muslims in general all seem pretty "big government" to me.

 

5 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Are conservatives generally anti big government though? Or do they use that as code language to attack things they don't like social security and medicare. and maybe the 1964 Civil rights act, because they've never considered those things as being legitimate.

But rather having the courage to just come out say they are against them, because they know they would get pounded in the polls, they just make little innuendos about "big government".

That's the problem that a lot of "traditional" conservatives hate about Trump. He shows that the Base doesn't care about small government, lower entitlement spending or family values. They just want to exclude outsiders.

though a lot of "traditional" conservatives are still going to vote for Trump partially b cause they hate Hillary Clinton, partially out of reflexive partisanship, and partly because of the Supreme Court.

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3 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

That's the problem that a lot of "traditional" conservatives hate about Trump. He shows that the Base doesn't care about small government, lower entitlement spending or family values. They just want to exclude outsiders.

Being of Appalachian descent, let's just say I know more than my fair share of Trump supporters. When I'm around them I make it a point to use the terms "Roosevelt Security" and "Johnson Care". Annoys the crap out of them. But, that's kind of the point.

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3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Being of Appalachian descent, let's just say I know more than my fair share of Trump supporters. When I'm around them I make it a point to use the terms "Roosevelt Security" and "Johnson Care". Annoys the crap out of them. But, that's kind of the point.

OGE,

Support from conservatives for existing entitlements is fundamentally inconsistent with "no big government" rhetoric.  I love "Roosevelt Security" and "JohnsonCare".  It really drives that point home.

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22 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I don't think Trump is anything but ego, but he plays upon conservative loathing of government in making his case for the presidency. How many times in the debate did he deride politicians, as if that is a terrible thing? Well, to conservatives, it is. So while Trump himself likely doesn't care about the size of government, he isn't above using the boogeyman of big government to rally support.

Essentially, the GOP has trained a bunch of suckers, and Trump is just a better con man than most.

He's not even that good though. He's just the cold that kills you after your immune system is compromised.

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49 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is Trump "anti big government"?  His "Wall", his plan to deport all illegals, his nastiness toward American Muslims and Muslims in general all seem pretty "big government" to me.

I was thinking about this the other day, and I wondered if, rather than being anti big-government, he wasn't rather a manifestation of the conservative hopes for limited government. Iow, people like Altherion et al who are kind of putting a lot of eggs into the whole 'he won't actually be able to do most of the things he wants to do'.

It's kind of 'how bad could be really be?' rationale that...if you believe he'll be handcuffed and therefore mitigated...might allow you to make more ad-hom choices re: sticking it to the status quo/elites/whathaveyou.

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4 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

ME,

Okay, Believing her husband is one thing.  Going on the attack against the women who've alleged her husband abused his power and committed rape is, at least, a step beyond merely believing her husband.

I think those two things kind of go hand in hand, dependent upon the timeline. As someone who has dealt with a cheating ex-spouse, I can tell you that for me, the denial period of that process was a strong compulsion. i would not or could not believe my ex-wife was cheating on me until I was faced with undeniable evidence. As Dracula AD pointed out, Mrs. Clinton is a very intelligent person, and these sort of actions after say the 3rd or 4th instance of he husband's behavior certainly make her reactions less defensible. That said I'm not entirely clear what she did in terms of attacking her husband's accusers and when. 

 I do think it's a reasonable assumption to think that at some point the Clinton's marriage became one of political convenience. Although as another poster posited, there's no way for us to know just how deep and abiding their love for one another might be. 

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On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 0:58 PM, MerenthaClone said:

 

e:  Scot, voting doesn't imply endorsement of the system any more than my paying taxes implies endorsement of the actions of the government.  Engaging with a system you don't personally have the power to change isn't endorsement, its attempting to bring the system closer in line with your values.  Its accepting what you can't alter, changing what you can, and ideally knowing the difference.  

I really think it is a natural reaction. First it is said they had an affair, and you blame the woman, after all, everyone knew he was married and they did it anyway.

Then the other women claim it was harassment, they were coerced, whatever, but you have already put the blame on them in your own mind. You think they are now trying to justify their own moral failings by blaming the husband, and not take any responsibility for their own actions.

Once you head down the path of blaming the women, it is emotionally very hard to come back. It means you have to think less of your husband, that you can't forgive him and move on.  If you blame the women, at least equally as much as the man (or more) it is easier to forgive him. How do you forgive him if he's not just a cheater, but nearly a rapist too?  Yes, it means willfully not believing their claims, but it also means you get another chance at your marriage. and if you never saw that coercive/bully side of him? It's easy to believe what you want to believe.

I can't fault her for this.

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