SpaceX--Spacecraft, rockets, and Mars

[Kalbear]

The absurd amount of transparency Musk has in his businesses is so amazingly heartening to me.

[Liffguard]

I try to maintain a bit of skepticism and caution when it comes to silicon valley techno-utopianism, but what SpaceX is doing genuinely has me giddy. I feel like an over-excited eight-year-old again. Actual, concrete, demonstrable progress on an interplanetary program. I can't wait to see how it all pans out.

[SpaceChampion]

The hype is definitely infectious.  Anybody watching the presentation tomorrow live?

Just to show how strong the Helium tanks are when they work normally, and therefore how unexpected the accident earlier this month was, here's a photo of a helium tank that survived intact when the 2nd stage of successfully launched F9 fell to earth  Indonesia all the way from orbit!

http://usimages.detik.com/community/media/visual/2016/09/26/7dc9a80c-56d2-4390-8282-71364c42c064.jpg?w=780&q=90

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

New thread as the other was closed.  I'm really enjoying the information that comes up.  I can't understand why the other one was closed at 6 pages with no flames.

[SpaceChampion]

 

[Altherion]

It's really interesting that he plans to launch the booster twice per trip and refuel the ship in orbit. I guess it makes sense since the limitation is the lifting capacity of the booster.

[SpaceChampion]

Live Reddit thread https://www.reddit.com/live/xnrdv28vxfi2

 

[SpaceChampion]

Here's the recording of the live stream.  They really should have screened the audience questions.

[SpaceChampion]

8 hours ago, Altherion said:

It's really interesting that he plans to launch the booster twice per trip and refuel the ship in orbit. I guess it makes sense since the limitation is the lifting capacity of the booster.

The video was abbreviated for convenience, but he said it'll actually be 3-5 launches per crew ship, to top it up with fuel & oxygen.  Also additional cargo, apparently.  Contrary to the originally announced 100 metric tonnes to Mars surface, this can deliver an amazing 450 Mt.  However in order to do that they'll have to transfer 150 Mt of cargo from a second ship, since one can only launch 300 Mt from Earth at a time.  This is vastly bigger and more capable than anticipated.  Its about 4 times the thrust of the Saturn V.  It also has a lot of little details that are just brilliant like the way they prevent boil off of the cryogenic propellants needed to land on Mars by hiding additional tanks inside the ones used to leave Earth orbit, where it'll be shaded from the sun.

Interestingly, the upper stage/ship can be launched on its own (single stage to orbit) without the lower booster, and though not get to orbit itself except with zero payload, it could be used to hop point to point on Earth, not only for travel but allowing passengers a brief microgravity joyride.  I think SpaceX just made Virgin Galactic's yet to be operational suborbital business obsolete.

I imagine an SSTO ship could be kept around on a spare launch pad as a rescue ship too, for in case astronauts needed to be evacuated from a low orbit space station on short notice.

[SpaceChampion]

IAC is an expensive and technical convention.  I don't know how a bunch of randos got in.  that funny or die guy though probably got in as media for free.

[Spring Bass]

It's a cool presentation, and I think Musk will at least do his damnedest to make it happen unless he goes bankrupt or it proves infeasible (it's worth noting that he's hit snags before - the F9 explosion, problems with the early SpaceX rockets, the delays on Falcon Heavy since 2012, etc). I don't buy into the whole "back-up from Earth in case Earth fails" thing, but being able to put large numbers of people on Mars for extended periods of time would be nice.

Slight side-note, but does anyone have any suggestions on replacement words for "colony"? I've read complaints in space exploration about the use of culturally loaded terms - "frontier", "pioneers", etc. You can see why this might touch a nerve. But I'm at a loss as to what could replace "colony". "Outpost" and "base" feel too temporary, "town" and "city" feel too small and familiar, "settlement" has the same baggage as "colony", etc. What would we call something like that on Mars if Musk succeeds? 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

EB,

What's wrong with "Colony", "Frontier", and "Pioneer"?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

EB,

What's wrong with "Colony", "Frontier", and "Pioneer"?

[Rhom]

Quote

EB,

What's wrong with "Colony", "Frontier", and "Pioneer"?

My quote button isn't working... so its not tagging @Ser Scot A Ellison for some reason, but I have the same question.

For anyone to say that these words are somehow "culturally loaded" would seem to be creating a problem where one does not exist of the worst sort.

From Dictionary.com:

Quote

Colony

1. a group of people who leave their native country to form in a new land a settlement subject to, or connected with, the parent nation.

2. the country or district settled or colonized :

Many Western nations are former European colonies.

3. any people or territory separated from but subject to a ruling power.

Quote

Frontier

1.the part of a country that borders another country; boundary; border.

2.the land or territory that forms the furthest extent of a country's settled or inhabited regions.

3.Often, frontiers.

1. the limit of knowledge or the most advanced achievement in a particular field:
   the frontiers of physics.
2. an outer limit in a field of endeavor, especially one in which the opportunities for research and development have not been exploited:
   the frontiers of space exploration.

Quote

Pioneer

1. a person who is among those who first enter or settle a region, thus opening it for occupation and development by others.

2. one who is first or among the earliest in any field of inquiry, enterprise, or progress:

pioneers in cancer research.

Nothing in there is charged.  If you have problems with the words, that's on you.

[Rhom]

I liked much of his concepts.  It did seem to involve quite a bit of hand waving away of some of the nitty gritty of how you would actually produce the infrastructure needed to sustain that many lives.  He talks of being the first to open a pizza place... but skips over all the things that have to happen before the pizza place.

Ultimately though, this kind of sense of wonder and adventure is what it will take to move us beyond the borders of our own world. 

Quote

I don't buy into the whole "back-up from Earth in case Earth fails" thing, but being able to put large numbers of people on Mars for extended periods of time would be nice.

I think its an evolutionary fact that at some point, humanity on Earth will no longer be viable.  Scattering through the solar system and eventually to the stars is the only way to ensure that humans persist.  The fact that we aren't trying to do it in the Hollywood scenario at the barrel of a cosmic gun of some sort represents the best of humanity and the prospects for hope and the desire to expand and create.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Rhom,

Further, the context in which those terms are a problem is when people show up where people are already there.  Clearly, not a problem on Mars.

[Rhom]

@Ser Scot A Ellison no disagreement there.  However, if we try to hold ourselves back from the future because of the sins of the past we will never go anywhere. 

There's no reason to attribute meanings to words that are not inherent to their usage.  At some point even on Earth, our ancestors were true pioneers discovering areas that had never seen human habitation.  That doesn't change the fact that they were pushing frontiers.

Out of the words discussed, the one that I find most interesting is "colony."  Throughout history colonists have always been people of varying intent.  Fortune seekers.  Those establishing and spreading religion.  Criminals.  But expeditions were always chiefly sponsored by a government/monarch.  The resulting colony owed loyalty to their home government.

If Musk truly achieves his dream and is able to corporately establish a colony on Mars.  How does that tie back to Earth?  Does it have any governmental allegiance?  Does it pay taxes to a home country?  Does it then get representation in a governing body?  Is it entirely sovereign in itself?

[Altherion]

4 hours ago, Rhom said:

If Musk truly achieves his dream and is able to corporately establish a colony on Mars.  How does that tie back to Earth?  Does it have any governmental allegiance?  Does it pay taxes to a home country?  Does it then get representation in a governing body?  Is it entirely sovereign in itself?

He cannot achieve his dream without some government at the very least providing him with a place to continuously launch from. More seriously, he will almost certainly need non-trivial government money for this. There is no profit to be made in this venture, at least not in the next decades (or maybe even centuries) and the total cost will be of order $100B (he says $10B to get there, but we'll need to support it with launches for a long time). I suspect that if it is successful, it will eventually become sovereign or perhaps even split into several sovereign entities, but as long as it needs support from Earth, whoever is providing this support will make the rules.

[Free Northman Reborn]

If ITS gets built, it makes virtually every other large rocket obsolete in terms of cost per kg launched into space.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Interestingly, Musk also said that the ONLY reason he is accumulating personal assets, is to fund the colonization of Mars. So Tesla, Solar City and any other profit making initiatives of his are only intended to generate money which he can pump into SpaceX. So in my view, as soon as Tesla hits the jackpot, expect Musk to sell his shares and pump the proceeds into his Mars project.

Awesome to hear such single minded conviction.