Jump to content

Kings in the North vs. Kings of Winter


Seams

Recommended Posts

13 hours ago, Duranaparthur said:

I'm thinking that the "Kings of Winter" name may even be a sign of Stark MO before they completed their conquest; the Starks have Winterfell, which seems to be the perfect sanctuary to use in Winter while the weather and famine destroys your foes. Winter is Coming may very well be a rare triple entendre: Winter is coming, and we all know its going to suck; Winter is coming, and its our greatest weapon; Winter is coming, so a Stark's gonna kill you.

I get where you're coming from, but the castle is called Winterfell, leaving me to assume the location was key in the end of the Long NIght.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/28/2016 at 1:54 PM, Seams said:

Well that settles it! I should have started there, I guess.

Well, the thing is that the maester authorities who wrote the World book, by GRRM's deliberate design, are frequently and spectacularly wrong. 

For instance, there's the opening passage of the very first page, which suggests the world is at most half a million years old, and is thus wrong by some four orders of magnitude (10,000x) or so. 

Or consider this passage, quoted above:

On 9/28/2016 at 1:49 PM, Nittanian said:

The greatest castle of the North is Winterfell, the seat of the Starks since the Dawn Age. Legend says that Brandon the Builder raised Winterfell after the generation-long winter known as the Long Night to become the stronghold of his descendants, the Kings of Winter.

Inside a mere two sentences we already get a huge contradiction, because obviously if Winterfell has been around since the Dawn Age, it can't have been built after the Long Night (which was about two thousand years after the Dawn Age ended with the Pact).  

This, in fact, fairly closely echoes the canon, which says both that the godswood at Winterfell had seen the castle grow around it for "ten thousand years," and also the better-known business about Brandon the Builder.  (Nowhere in the canon is there a reference to Winterfell being in use in the Dawn Age, though.)

So while the common explanation fans believe for Kings of Winter vs. Kings in the North is the one given by Free Northman Reborn... and I lean that way too... I wouldn't consider it just straight-up factual. 

It fits the history of the North to the limited extent we know it,  but, as Sam told us so wisely:

Quote

The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On September 28, 2016 at 10:00 PM, Curled Finger said:

You know I'm on an active quest to figure anything out about The Others. You also know that I am a huge fan of the magic swords in universe.  Yovmo, I'm sure I'm overreacting, but what if those Old Kings of Winter who presumably served The Old Gods or perhaps just The Gods back in the day are in fact The Others?  Even if I am completely wrong it's something to consider.   Too much correspondence between old swords and new, Old Gods and new and names for Kings in the North.  I love this and have bolded your words that spoke most resoundingly with my madness.   

Time to get out the ole Valyrian Foil Cap. 

Yes, I am aware of your active quest wrt the others and swords and share your interests, as you have suspected.

@Seams has us thinking about theon stealing swords to pay for finery and in turn letting out ghosts of old King of Winter (which one might be relevant) and I tend to agree. As Melisandra tells Jon when the Mance/Lord O Bones ruse is revealed: Call it what you will.....R'holler is Lord of Light....and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others weave with thread.

Call it King of Winter or King in the North and either way the thread seems the same....but there is a problem and that problems name is Craster. It cannot be that Theon kicked off this round of the Others returning. Craster has been sacrificing his sons long enough that even if Theon's first action upon getting to winterfell as a child was to run directly to the crypts and take a sword  the timeline still wouldn't fit. Some of Craster's wives are his grand daughters and even if he is bedding them as soon as they have their first blood he has been doing this longer than thegn's has been alive.

 

So I am going to lay some info and some quotes out there in no particular order for you to mull on your secret magic sword / others / king of winter quest and then I will draw a few conclusions. I want to say as vociferously as I can, these are just inchoate ideas and not full grown theories that I am ready to defend. I feel that there is a little kernel of truth in them somewhere but I don't know where.

So to start I will say that I do believe that the old kings of winter are out of there tombs and more than likely that they are others.

Let's start at the beginning. In AGOT Eddard I when the crypts are described there is something very curious about it. The unnatural cold, yes...but that one is an easy gimme.  But look at this 

Quote

By ancient custom an iron longsword had been laid across the lap of each who had been Lord of Winterfell, to keep the vengeful spirits in their crypts.

Vengeful? That's odd. I mean in 8000 years of Stark dominion I am sure there were some vengeful Kings and Lords but to just describe them ALL as vengeful spirits? Why so vengeful. Well I took a look and, odd thing, the word "vengeful" is only used 4 times in the entire series including D&E and WOIAF. This is the first and then in Cat VIII she tells the blackfish, regarding Moat Cailin, 

Quote

"And when night falls, there are said to be ghosts, cold vengeful spirits of the north who hunger for southron blood."

again...vengeful spirits.

Then in COK when Morros Slynt gets unhorsed in a joust with Ser Balon sansa prays (presumably to the old gods) that he was killed 

Quote

Sansa was appalled, wondering if the gods had heard her vengeful prayer.

And in the only non northern instance, in ADWD, when tyrion thinks he is going to drown with the stone men he says that its ok...tyrion has already really died

Quote

It was only his revenant who remained, the small vengeful ghost who throttled Shae and put a crossbow bolt through the great Lord Tywin's bowels.

(I love the word revenant here btw)

Ok, so in an enormous series of books spanning 20 years, the ASOIAF 5 books, the D&E books and TWOIAF, in tens of thousands of pages of a series which deals with revenge as a MAJOR freaking theme the word "vengeful" shows up only 4 times and each time it is in relation to ghosts or spirits and 3 of the 4 specifically with regard to the old gods and the Kings of Winter.

Why are these spirits so vengeful? I mean, surely there were Stark Kings who were born to loving Stark families, grew to manhood, took on the mantle of King of Winter, ruled well, lived well and then died a good death....I mean, there must have been some over the course of 8000 years. I mean Roderick Stark seems to have been a kind of cool king. He ruled. Beat the King of the Iron Islands in a wrestling match, won bear island and gave it to the Mormont's to hold. That sounds like the kind of guy who doesn't seem like he would have such vengeful ghost. 

So the real question here is "why are these stark kings so pissed"

Well, as I started earlier with Seams assertion that Theon let out a ghost by stealing a sword (and presumably Bran, Rickon, Hodor and Osha did when they took their swords) it still doesn't account for the seeming 3 generations of sacrifices to the others that Craster makes.

Well, in that same Eddard chapter he says about the swords across the laps of the Kings of Winter

Quote

The oldest had long ago rusted away to nothing, leaving only a few red stains where the metal had rested on stone. Ned wondered if that meant those ghosts were free to roam the castle now. He hoped not. The first Lords of Winterfell had been men hard as the land they ruled. In the centuries before the Dragonlords came over the sea, they had sworn allegiance to no man, styling themselves the Kings in the North.

So it is pretty obvious that I think that those old iron swords having rusted to nothing would have been what set the first Kings of Winter loose. But why now? So I did a little googling about regarding iron. If stored in a dry environment where it is not exposed to the elements it pretty much will last about 500 years...that is in absolutely optimal conditions. Now the tombs are better conditions than if they were left on a beach somewhere, but they would still be exposed to elements so lets say that these swords should have rusted to pretty much nothing but a red stain between 250-500 years. 

One last thing and then it is full blast on the tinfoil. We here over and over from the Starks that the first men's blood flows in their veins. Northern's in general and Starks in specific are very proud of their allegiance to the old gods and their connection to the first men. This makes the Crypts of Winterfell even more freaking suspicious. The first men didn't entomb their dead. They buried them in barrows so they could, in essence, have their spirits become part of the weirent. Think of the bones laying around bloodraven's lair. That is how the first men buried their dead.

And, as I mentioned above, only the KOW/KITN/LOW get thrones and swords (with the exceptions of Brandon and Lyanna and a third brother who did something heroic at some point but as a rule only the top dog). So what's what? I mean is it  like they were short on stone so it is a big F You to every stark that isn't the head of the family that they have to just roam the world as ghosts while the kings of winter and lords of winterfell are just chilling out on their thrones? That makes no sense at all. These ghosts are vengeful.

So I am going to make a guess here. Mind you, this is just spitballing and isn't a theory that I would readily defend. I will go as far as to say the following is POSSIBLE and that is all.

What I think is going on here dates to BEFORE Bran the Builder.

I believe that Brandon of the Bloody Blade (son of Garth Greenhand) was the father of Bran the Builder. Brandon the Bloody was killing the COTF like it was going out of style. He killed so many at the Blue Lake that they started calling it the Red Lake. He was, in no uncertain terms, a huge freaking problem for the COTF.

I think the COTF eventually got a hold of Bloody Brandon and using their magic turned him into the first other (a lot of speculation that COTF responsible for the others so I won't go into that detail). 

This leads to the long night. Eventually Brandon the Builder seeks out the COTF to make amends for his fathers crimes and a deal is struck Brandon is given the tools to end the long night (build the wall, raise winterfell) but in turn a sacrifice had to be made. The line of Brandon of the Bloody Blade had to be punished. And so it was agreed that as part of their service, the Kings of Winter, in perpetuity, would sacrifice their souls. They would be condemned to never become one with the collective. This was the punishment for the crimes of Bloody Brandon and the price of Kingship.

In this story we constantly hear about the price of honor and how being king is a heavy price, how heavy crowns are to wear. As so, as I started in the first post when I said "To sit a throne is an activity, sit is an active verb" this is what those kings of winter are doing. They are serving the prison sentence of all prison sentences....not just "life" but "eternity" they are sitting their thrones. The first duty of a king is to protect their subjects and by being imprisoned and paying for the crimes of their ancestor they protect their families and subjects. Each king of winter would die, be entombed and sit there and the North would know peace from the power of the Others.

This worked well and fine for nearly 8000 years but then a problem happened and this problem's name was Aegon Targaryen. When Torhen Stark knelt and gave the crown of winter to the conqueror there were no more kings. It couldn't just be the lord of winterfell it had to be a king that suffered the punishment. Kings blood. Very powerful juju ya know.

At that point the deal between the Starks and the COTF was effectively over. 

The swords, dating back 8000 years old, were made of iron. They should have lasted down there between 250-500 years. I will say that there was some form of enchantment on them keeping them in place and in turn keeping the vengeful ghosts of the stark kings (the others)  upon their thrones. With Torrhen deposed and there being no more kings of winter the COTF would have lifted the enchantments and set a time bomb for the return of the others and those swords would have rusted in...ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh about 300 years.....you know, exactly how long it is between when the King of Winter Knelt to the Dragon and current events. 

 

I will say that there are probably a lot of holes in here, but I have thrown a lot of stuff out there and hope at least some of it sticks

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Time to get out the ole Valyrian Foil Cap. 

Yes, I am aware of your active quest wrt the others and swords and share your interests, as you have suspected.

@Seams has us thinking about theon stealing swords to pay for finery and in turn letting out ghosts of old King of Winter (which one might be relevant) and I tend to agree. As Melisandra tells Jon when the Mance/Lord O Bones ruse is revealed: Call it what you will.....R'holler is Lord of Light....and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others weave with thread.

Call it King of Winter or King in the North and either way the thread seems the same....but there is a problem and that problems name is Craster. It cannot be that Theon kicked off this round of the Others returning. Craster has been sacrificing his sons long enough that even if Theon's first action upon getting to winterfell as a child was to run directly to the crypts and take a sword  the timeline still wouldn't fit. Some of Craster's wives are his grand daughters and even if he is bedding them as soon as they have their first blood he has been doing this longer than thegn's has been alive.

 

So I am going to lay some info and some quotes out there in no particular order for you to mull on your secret magic sword / others / king of winter quest and then I will draw a few conclusions. I want to say as vociferously as I can, these are just inchoate ideas and not full grown theories that I am ready to defend. I feel that there is a little kernel of truth in them somewhere but I don't know where.

So to start I will say that I do believe that the old kings of winter are out of there tombs and more than likely that they are others.

Let's start at the beginning. In AGOT Eddard I when the crypts are described there is something very curious about it. The unnatural cold, yes...but that one is an easy gimme.  But look at this 

Vengeful? That's odd. I mean in 8000 years of Stark dominion I am sure there were some vengeful Kings and Lords but to just describe them ALL as vengeful spirits? Why so vengeful. Well I took a look and, odd thing, the word "vengeful" is only used 4 times in the entire series including D&E and WOIAF. This is the first and then in Cat VIII she tells the blackfish, regarding Moat Cailin, 

again...vengeful spirits.

Then in COK when Morros Slynt gets unhorsed in a joust with Ser Balon sansa prays (presumably to the old gods) that he was killed 

And in the only non northern instance, in ADWD, when tyrion thinks he is going to drown with the stone men he says that its ok...tyrion has already really died

(I love the word revenant here btw)

Ok, so in an enormous series of books spanning 20 years, the ASOIAF 5 books, the D&E books and TWOIAF, in tens of thousands of pages of a series which deals with revenge as a MAJOR freaking theme the word "vengeful" shows up only 4 times and each time it is in relation to ghosts or spirits and 3 of the 4 specifically with regard to the old gods and the Kings of Winter.

Why are these spirits so vengeful? I mean, surely there were Stark Kings who were born to loving Stark families, grew to manhood, took on the mantle of King of Winter, ruled well, lived well and then died a good death....I mean, there must have been some over the course of 8000 years. I mean Roderick Stark seems to have been a kind of cool king. He ruled. Beat the King of the Iron Islands in a wrestling match, won bear island and gave it to the Mormont's to hold. That sounds like the kind of guy who doesn't seem like he would have such vengeful ghost. 

So the real question here is "why are these stark kings so pissed"

Well, as I started earlier with Seams assertion that Theon let out a ghost by stealing a sword (and presumably Bran, Rickon, Hodor and Osha did when they took their swords) it still doesn't account for the seeming 3 generations of sacrifices to the others that Craster makes.

Well, in that same Eddard chapter he says about the swords across the laps of the Kings of Winter

So it is pretty obvious that I think that those old iron swords having rusted to nothing would have been what set the first Kings of Winter loose. But why now? So I did a little googling about regarding iron. If stored in a dry environment where it is not exposed to the elements it pretty much will last about 500 years...that is in absolutely optimal conditions. Now the tombs are better conditions than if they were left on a beach somewhere, but they would still be exposed to elements so lets say that these swords should have rusted to pretty much nothing but a red stain between 250-500 years. 

One last thing and then it is full blast on the tinfoil. We here over and over from the Starks that the first men's blood flows in their veins. Northern's in general and Starks in specific are very proud of their allegiance to the old gods and their connection to the first men. This makes the Crypts of Winterfell even more freaking suspicious. The first men didn't entomb their dead. They buried them in barrows so they could, in essence, have their spirits become part of the weirent. Think of the bones laying around bloodraven's lair. That is how the first men buried their dead.

And, as I mentioned above, only the KOW/KITN/LOW get thrones and swords (with the exceptions of Brandon and Lyanna and a third brother who did something heroic at some point but as a rule only the top dog). So what's what? I mean is it  like they were short on stone so it is a big F You to every stark that isn't the head of the family that they have to just roam the world as ghosts while the kings of winter and lords of winterfell are just chilling out on their thrones? That makes no sense at all. These ghosts are vengeful.

So I am going to make a guess here. Mind you, this is just spitballing and isn't a theory that I would readily defend. I will go as far as to say the following is POSSIBLE and that is all.

What I think is going on here dates to BEFORE Bran the Builder.

I believe that Brandon of the Bloody Blade (son of Garth Greenhand) was the father of Bran the Builder. Brandon the Bloody was killing the COTF like it was going out of style. He killed so many at the Blue Lake that they started calling it the Red Lake. He was, in no uncertain terms, a huge freaking problem for the COTF.

I think the COTF eventually got a hold of Bloody Brandon and using their magic turned him into the first other (a lot of speculation that COTF responsible for the others so I won't go into that detail). 

This leads to the long night. Eventually Brandon the Builder seeks out the COTF to make amends for his fathers crimes and a deal is struck Brandon is given the tools to end the long night (build the wall, raise winterfell) but in turn a sacrifice had to be made. The line of Brandon of the Bloody Blade had to be punished. And so it was agreed that as part of their service, the Kings of Winter, in perpetuity, would sacrifice their souls. They would be condemned to never become one with the collective. This was the punishment for the crimes of Bloody Brandon and the price of Kingship.

In this story we constantly hear about the price of honor and how being king is a heavy price, how heavy crowns are to wear. As so, as I started in the first post when I said "To sit a throne is an activity, sit is an active verb" this is what those kings of winter are doing. They are serving the prison sentence of all prison sentences....not just "life" but "eternity" they are sitting their thrones. The first duty of a king is to protect their subjects and by being imprisoned and paying for the crimes of their ancestor they protect their families and subjects. Each king of winter would die, be entombed and sit there and the North would know peace from the power of the Others.

This worked well and fine for nearly 8000 years but then a problem happened and this problem's name was Aegon Targaryen. When Torhen Stark knelt and gave the crown of winter to the conqueror there were no more kings. It couldn't just be the lord of winterfell it had to be a king that suffered the punishment. Kings blood. Very powerful juju ya know.

At that point the deal between the Starks and the COTF was effectively over. 

The swords, dating back 8000 years old, were made of iron. They should have lasted down there between 250-500 years. I will say that there was some form of enchantment on them keeping them in place and in turn keeping the vengeful ghosts of the stark kings (the others)  upon their thrones. With Torrhen deposed and there being no more kings of winter the COTF would have lifted the enchantments and set a time bomb for the return of the others and those swords would have rusted in...ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh about 300 years.....you know, exactly how long it is between when the King of Winter Knelt to the Dragon and current events. 

 

I will say that there are probably a lot of holes in here, but I have thrown a lot of stuff out there and hope at least some of it sticks

 

Sweet Sweet Sweet.  A point of clarification, thought, because I constantly require clarification.   The 1st Men had Bronze swords, didn't they?   I don't think Iron was introduced until those Pesky Andals made their way over, 3-5000 years after Winterfell was built and the the Kings of Winter were entombed.   Bronze is an alloy and doesn't rust.  Doesn't mean I know how long it lasts, but corrosion doesn't seem to be a major factor in bronze items.   I'm only bringing this up because your points about the iron swords rusting makes perfect sense to me and these metals do seem to be a thing in the story of the 1st Men.   

To your points about the swords' removal allowing the spirits of vengeful kings to roam free I have to go back to my original post about the location of the Kings of Winter (I still have them separated in my mind).  It is entirely plausible that Theon would find valuable more modern swords in the upper levels of the crypts and we know the kids took the most recent swords placed there.  I'm still thinking it would be impossible to get to the swords in the lower crypts.   Wouldn't someone need to get to the bronze swords to allow the spirits to roam?  None of this is included to naysay any of your ideas because these are GREAT ideas.   We just need to tighten them up a bit.  

I recall the story about Garth offering some assistance to the Children of the Forest and being flatly refused.  Of course it would help to know what he was trying to offer them and why they refused.   Maybe it was a type of vengeance for the slighting of his father that BtBB sought against the COTF?  This original vengeance is a beautiful thing, Yovmo, as is the good Brandon the Builder's peace efforts.   A pact involving eternal sacrifice of spirits of the Kings of Winter is just perfect.    Craster's 3 generations of sacrifices is a dent in any theory supposing the Others are only waking or whatever they're doing in very recent times.   Personally, I think it all goes back to Hardhome and the Others have been waking (or whatever) incrementally since.   Each catastrophe loosens the bonds.  I bring this up with an eye to the end of the making of Valyrian Steel in consideration of our sword metals.   It appears that VS is the end all beat all sword material.   However, back to our boy Craster, he had to learn about the sacrifices somewhere presumably the same place he learned about The gods as opposed to the Old gods.   Did he learn it as a result of his mother or father's people?  Yah, that could put a real damper on what the Night's Watch is really supposed to be doing couldn't it?  (Unless the NW is actually where the sacrifices began ala Nights King leaving the current NW set up as a sort of depository of sacrificed boys and men?)  And Craster's incestuous life and daughter wives?  Could this arrangement be a requirement for the production of acceptable sacrifices?  

I think where I mean to go with this is that there have been human forces very much in harmony with The Others returning for a very long time.   If the Starks are as you so very nicely draw, soul sacrifices for eternity, there is an opposite if not equal force working to promote the return of the Others and it didn't just begin 30-50 years back.   Still, there is a symmetry and ration to your spitballing that I can't wait to explore much deeper.    Thanks so much for laying it out Yovmo.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is getting way too fun. ok, lets get jiggy with it.

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 

Sweet Sweet Sweet.  A point of clarification, thought, because I constantly require clarification.   The 1st Men had Bronze swords, didn't they? 

Indeed they did and indeed it was those darn Andal's who brought iron. But the swords mentioned are always "iron swords"

My best guess at resolving this is that the very earliest (pre Andal) bronze swords were in the oldest chambers that ned mentions have collapsed in on themselves. It could be that the magic of the crypts, and not just the swords, was revoked when Torhen knelt and so where the crypts had nearly 8000 years of not needing to be maintained in order to be perfect, they have been falling apart since. The magic that holds the crypts together is gone so the crypts themselves, not just the swords, are going to pieces. The oldest of the swords that were bronze, along with the stone kings and the thrones they sit on could all be destroyed by now. However, I will think more on this to see if I can come up with something better. Looking up an alloy site with an FAQ about bronze reinforces that bronze simply will never fade to nothing. That doesn't mean the oldest rocks, ceilings, etc haven't collapsed in on them.

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 I don't think Iron was introduced until those Pesky Andals made their way over, 3-5000 years after Winterfell was built and the the Kings of Winter were entombed.   Bronze is an alloy and doesn't rust.  Doesn't mean I know how long it lasts, but corrosion doesn't seem to be a major factor in bronze items.   I'm only bringing this up because your points about the iron swords rusting makes perfect sense to me and these metals do seem to be a thing in the story of the 1st Men.   

To your points about the swords' removal allowing the spirits of vengeful kings to roam free I have to go back to my original post about the location of the Kings of Winter (I still have them separated in my mind).  It is entirely plausible that Theon would find valuable more modern swords in the upper levels of the crypts and we know the kids took the most recent swords placed there.

This depends on a great deal of things. I mean, what is the value of an archmaesters key? The answer depends on who is selling and who is buying--what is it face(less man) value har har. It could very well be that an antique iron sword of stark king would fetch more money to the right......collector if you know what I mean. This is why I parenthetically remarked that which king Theon might have taken a sword from might be important. We know bloodraven is in this thing with the children. We know that he can influence people. Maybe theon met someone with a sack of gold who wanted the sword from some very particular kind for a certain reason...or an old sword so it wouldn't be conspicuous that it was missing.....maybe that sword is was a particularly important sword. Going to have to rethink sword lore in terms of Stark Kings. There are literally dozens of reasons why an older sword, seemingly less valuable, might have fetched a higher sum.

 

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 

 I'm still thinking it would be impossible to get to the swords in the lower crypts.   Wouldn't someone need to get to the bronze swords to allow the spirits to roam?  None of this is included to naysay any of your ideas because these are GREAT ideas.   We just need to tighten them up a bit.  

Again, In Eddard I it is specifically noted that the oldest chambers had caved in on themselves. Winterfell along with the wall and, presumably the Nightfort, were raised by Bran the Builder using magic that was part of some deal he made with the COTF. If that magic had been revoked it would explain why the Nightfort seems particularly horrible (I mean JoJen goes to the point of saying it is run down). The wall is being actively maintained by the NW and that is really not faring so well (it used to be brought higher by every generation but now it is not any longer) and there are tons of places where Winterfell which is probably very well cared for by a large garrison is falling apart too. If the oldest part of winterfell is the crypts and the oldest part of the crypts is the chamber where the pre Andal invasion Kings of Winter are, imagine it like when Dorian Gray sees his painting and all the aging happens at once...an 8000 year old stone room which has had zero maintenance has the magic holding it together lifted...ceiling crashes, tombs and swords and all are thrown asunder, spirits released.

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I recall the story about Garth offering some assistance to the Children of the Forest and being flatly refused.  Of course it would help to know what he was trying to offer them and why they refused.   Maybe it was a type of vengeance for the slighting of his father that BtBB sought against the COTF?  This original vengeance is a beautiful thing, Yovmo, as is the good Brandon the Builder's peace efforts.  

Exactly. This is a cool bit of thinking If I do pat myself on the back a little bit. Garth asks the COTF for help and is refused. It must have been pretty important. Like he didn't ask for them to help him make a good onion soup. His rebuff leads his son, BOTBB to strike out against the COTF in bloody revenge. COTF turn him into first other which, in time, ushers in the long night. His son, Bran the Builder (of treaties as well as walls and castles) makes a deal to save, pretty much, the whole freaking world and sacrifices his soul and the souls of all future kings of winter (I really want to say that this would make Bran the Builder AA, the souls of the Stark Kings Nisa Nisa and the Wall light bringer but that will take extra tinfoil) and the solemn face of the stark heart tree is solemn as it reflects the kings of winters sacrifice (remember, heart trees very often resemble their lords...think of Manderly's heart tree...with a face that is both fat and angry!)

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

A pact involving eternal sacrifice of spirits of the Kings of Winter is just perfect.  

It really does fit the overall themes of the story very well and does have a haunting beauty in that sad and beautiful way (like High Harps) that Martin writes the story of all his heroes....

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

  Craster's 3 generations of sacrifices is a dent in any theory supposing the Others are only waking or whatever they're doing in very recent times.   Personally, I think it all goes back to Hardhome and the Others have been waking (or whatever) incrementally since.  

I currently have Hard Home down as Doom 1.0 and being brought on by the faceless men but that is a whole other post. The faceless men are where I am at my most tin foiley

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Each catastrophe loosens the bonds.  I bring this up with an eye to the end of the making of Valyrian Steel in consideration of our sword metals.   It appears that VS is the end all beat all sword material.   However, back to our boy Craster, he had to learn about the sacrifices somewhere presumably the same place he learned about The gods as opposed to the Old gods.

Where Craster learned this is an EXCELLENT question I had not considered. I think Mark Twain said that the first man to eat a raw oyster was the bravest man ever. How did Craster know this. I will put this in the brain box and reflect on it.

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

  Did he learn it as a result of his mother or father's people?  Yah, that could put a real damper on what the Night's Watch is really supposed to be doing couldn't it?  (Unless the NW is actually where the sacrifices began ala Nights King leaving the current NW set up as a sort of depository of sacrificed boys and men?)  And Craster's incestuous life and daughter wives?  Could this arrangement be a requirement for the production of acceptable sacrifices?  

I think where I mean to go with this is that there have been human forces very much in harmony with The Others returning for a very long time.   If the Starks are as you so very nicely draw, soul sacrifices for eternity, there is an opposite if not equal force working to promote the return of the Others and it didn't just begin 30-50 years back.  

This is absolutely true. I think some likely places to look are...whomever it was that Bloodraven replaced or displaced three eye raven or the First First Man

28 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Still, there is a symmetry and ration to your spitballing that I can't wait to explore much deeper.    Thanks so much for laying it out Yovmo.   

I am nothing if not symmetrical. Of course, this may be the best part of my thinking or worse depending on which path Martin is leading us down. Lord knows we do not want to bear witness to Dany and Jon being married and in kings landing and the dragons flying around and ewoks dancing and pyromancers doing fireworks while the force ghosts of Robert Baratheon, Ned and Jon Arryn (played by Haden Christensen) look on approvingly but that would be symmetrical. Symmetry, like prophecy, is a sword without a hilt

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, YOVMO said:

Indeed they did and indeed it was those darn Andal's who brought iron. But the swords mentioned are always "iron swords"

My best guess at resolving this is that the very earliest (pre Andal) bronze swords were in the oldest chambers that ned mentions have collapsed in on themselves. It could be that the magic of the crypts, and not just the swords, was revoked when Torhen knelt and so where the crypts had nearly 8000 years of not needing to be maintained in order to be perfect, they have been falling apart since. The magic that holds the crypts together is gone so the crypts themselves, not just the swords, are going to pieces. The oldest of the swords that were bronze, along with the stone kings and the thrones they sit on could all be destroyed by now. However, I will think more on this to see if I can come up with something better. Looking up an alloy site with an FAQ about bronze reinforces that bronze simply will never fade to nothing. That doesn't mean the oldest rocks, ceilings, etc haven't collapsed in on them.

My first thought was that the clear hole in your theory was, as Curled Finger pointed out, that the First Men had bronze weapons. But then I thought that you don't need to reconsider; if the iron swords have rusted away but not the bronze ones, then you still have like 5000 odd years worth of vengeful Kings of Winter's souls (how many are those, like 300?) roaming around.

Quote

Again, In Eddard I it is specifically noted that the oldest chambers had caved in on themselves. Winterfell along with the wall and, presumably the Nightfort, were raised by Bran the Builder using magic that was part of some deal he made with the COTF. If that magic had been revoked it would explain why the Nightfort seems particularly horrible (I mean JoJen goes to the point of saying it is run down). The wall is being actively maintained by the NW and that is really not faring so well (it used to be brought higher by every generation but now it is not any longer) and there are tons of places where Winterfell which is probably very well cared for by a large garrison is falling apart too. If the oldest part of winterfell is the crypts and the oldest part of the crypts is the chamber where the pre Andal invasion Kings of Winter are, imagine it like when Dorian Gray sees his painting and all the aging happens at once...an 8000 year old stone room which has had zero maintenance has the magic holding it together lifted...ceiling crashes, tombs and swords and all are thrown asunder, spirits released.

The lower levels of the crypts might have collapsed for some more pedestrian reason (i.e. the structure couldn't support anymore the upper levels that were added later) but if the bronze swords of the earlier Kings of Winter still exist then their souls might still be bonded to them swords.

Quote

Where Craster learned this is an EXCELLENT question I had not considered. [snip]

I am nothing if not symmetrical.

I seem to remember a (tinfoily) theory that paired the Valyrians, which are Fire, to the Others, which are Ice. And if the Valyrians prized the incestuous unions to keep pure their dragonriding blood, wouldn't the Others seek children born from incest to make them Others in turn? I know is crackpot and I have little to support the theory, but here you can find some symmetry, and explain Craster's actions (he calls himself a "pious" man) and the Others' apparent recent comeback.

Quote

Lord knows we do not want to bear witness to Dany and Jon being married and in kings landing and the dragons flying around and ewoks dancing and pyromancers doing fireworks while the force ghosts of Robert Baratheon, Ned and Jon Arryn (played by Haden Christensen) look on approvingly but that would be symmetrical.

I swear I'd burn my books if this happens.:ack:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, YOVMO said:

What I think is going on here dates to BEFORE Bran the Builder.

I believe that Brandon of the Bloody Blade (son of Garth Greenhand) was the father of Bran the Builder. Brandon the Bloody was killing the COTF like it was going out of style. He killed so many at the Blue Lake that they started calling it the Red Lake. He was, in no uncertain terms, a huge freaking problem for the COTF.

I think the COTF eventually got a hold of Bloody Brandon and using their magic turned him into the first other (a lot of speculation that COTF responsible for the others so I won't go into that detail). 

This leads to the long night. Eventually Brandon the Builder seeks out the COTF to make amends for his fathers crimes and a deal is struck Brandon is given the tools to end the long night (build the wall, raise winterfell) but in turn a sacrifice had to be made. The line of Brandon of the Bloody Blade had to be punished. And so it was agreed that as part of their service, the Kings of Winter, in perpetuity, would sacrifice their souls. They would be condemned to never become one with the collective. This was the punishment for the crimes of Bloody Brandon and the price of Kingship.

In this story we constantly hear about the price of honor and how being king is a heavy price, how heavy crowns are to wear. As so, as I started in the first post when I said "To sit a throne is an activity, sit is an active verb" this is what those kings of winter are doing. They are serving the prison sentence of all prison sentences....not just "life" but "eternity" they are sitting their thrones. The first duty of a king is to protect their subjects and by being imprisoned and paying for the crimes of their ancestor they protect their families and subjects. Each king of winter would die, be entombed and sit there and the North would know peace from the power of the Others.

This worked well and fine for nearly 8000 years but then a problem happened and this problem's name was Aegon Targaryen. When Torhen Stark knelt and gave the crown of winter to the conqueror there were no more kings. It couldn't just be the lord of winterfell it had to be a king that suffered the punishment. Kings blood. Very powerful juju ya know.

At that point the deal between the Starks and the COTF was effectively over.

This is good. This is very good.

A few thoughts or observations.

Other Starks are interred in the tombs, but don't have their own statues and swords and direwolves. Maybe you were already taking that into consideration. I think we hear about this in a Bran POV. Granted, he may be foreshadowing his own likely claim to be the new LOW / KitN, but I think he mentions that his siblings' bones would be there, too.

It seems as if the swords in the tombs were specifically made as what archaeologists would call "grave goods" - the sword Ice doesn't have to go into the tomb with the king, so Mikken (or the previous smiths) make a sword specifically for the tomb. So there must be something special about the way these blades are forged that gives them the ability to hold the soul in the tomb. Or maybe some spell is cast over them after they are forged? Mikken was not a Stark descendant, as far as we know, so the magic was either something he knew about as a trusted insider, or the magic came from someone other than the smith. If it came from the Crone, that could explain why Old Nan had been at Winterfell so long. She might be the overseer of the pact between the Starks and the CotF.

If Mikken can make a new sword to go with a modern Winterfell tomb, wouldn't the Winterfell smiths have had the duty of making new swords to replace old rusty swords as they started to decay? Or does the sword only work if it's the initial sword buried with that particular Stark?

The stairs or passage to the lower tombs may have collapsed, but what if there was a different way in? Maybe Osha's swim in the bottomless hot spring was an attempt to find the back door to the tombs.

The unreliable narrator could also come into play with the notion of the inaccessible lower levels. Maybe the kids have been told that the lower levels are inaccessible, but they really can be reached, if you know how. Or maybe Theon is saying they are inaccessible because he doesn't want anyone to find how many swords he took.

I had been thinking that Jeor Mormont was such a benevolent guy for sparing Jon Snow after he deserted the Night's Watch, in contrast to Ned Stark killing four deserters that year alone. But his closing words to Jon always nagged at me: he said he needed Jon's blood and his direwolf to go beyond the Wall, to fight the real war they were facing and to find Benjen Stark. What if the old northern Mormont family is trying to restore the peace by selling Jon Snow's soul and his direwolf and a special sword (Mormont asks Jon whether he has a grumkin to "magic up your sword") to the vengeful CotF? This could explain why Maege cheered for Robb as King of Winter, while everyone else was cheering for King in the North - she knows that a certain kind of king is needed for the soul sacrifice, and suspects that Robb either is, or can't be, that king. What if Jeor knows that Benjen is trying to undermine this strategy to sacrifice Jon? (But why wouldn't Benjen have warned Jon?)

We need to find that grumkin and find out what he knows.

You know, that whole scene with the northern bannermen reaching the conclusion that Robb must be the King in the North takes on a new meaning if this theory is correct. They may have been dying to get the Starks to wear the crown and call themselves kings again so the safety from the winter and the long night could be restored. Lord Rickard Stark may have known about the responsibility that would pass to him, and he may even have had "the talk" with his oldest son. When Rickard and Brandon both suddenly died, the little father-to-son talk may never have been passed down to Ned. Maybe Ned had no idea that it was essential he die at Winterfell. (Or maybe he did, explaining why he ensured that Lyanna's bones were interred there.) But I was thinking that the bannermen cheering for the King in the North could be like the people who cheer for the bear who is persuaded that he is going to town to marry a beautiful girl when, in fact, he is going to be hunted and eaten. Robb has no idea he is being made into a sacrifice by all these nice northern pals who have been hanging out with him.

Without a lot to go on other than my twitching wordplay antenna, I have suspected that Craster comes from a splintered-off branch of the Stark family. I don't think GRRM would have gone to so much trouble to explain the reasons behind the Karstarks unless it had a more important application. And that application could be to call attention to the fact that the name Craster shares a lot of the same letters and sounds as Stark and Karstark and Greystark. So I agree with the speculation that Craster is deliberately maintaining a pure bloodline for the sacrifices or for some other reason. If you're right about the pledge to sacrifice the souls of Stark kings, maybe Craster and his father and grandfathers before him have been trying to shore up the agreement for those three hundred years since Torrhen bent the knee. (And Gilly's baby will have to grow up and take up the family business as the only warm-blooded male heir.)

There is also a throne connection for Craster - GRRM makes a point of calling attention to the one chair in Craster's keep. Everyone else sits on benches or the floor.

So many interesting ways to explore this. Thanks for a good, provocative read, Yovmo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Something which might be useful while speculating if the old Stark Kings and the Others may be related:

Theon has a dream where he is feasting with the dead, in ACOK:

Quote

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time... until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller’s wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran’s life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

The bolded sentence in the passage is referring to the ghosts of the Kings of Winter, because he says they were "faces seen only in stone."

Now let's look at the prologue of AGOT, at the first descriptions we get of the Others:

Quote

Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone.

....
 

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk.

Very similar description and wording used for both. May be something, may be nothing.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Something which might be useful while speculating if the old Stark Kings and the Others may be related:

Theon has a dream where he is feasting with the dead, in ACOK:

The bolded sentence in the passage is referring to the ghosts of the Kings of Winter, because he says they were "faces seen only in stone."

Now let's look at the prologue of AGOT, at the first descriptions we get of the Others:

Very similar description and wording used for both. May be something, may be nothing.

 

Excellent catch! This has to be deliberate. The momentum builds!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Wrl6199 said:

Do you mean their related by blood. 

 

12 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Something which might be useful while speculating if the old Stark Kings and the Others may be related:

Theon has a dream where he is feasting with the dead, in ACOK:

The bolded sentence in the passage is referring to the ghosts of the Kings of Winter, because he says they were "faces seen only in stone."

Now let's look at the prologue of AGOT, at the first descriptions we get of the Others:

Very similar description and wording used for both. May be something, may be nothing.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said:

Do you mean their related by blood. 

I think she uses the word "related" here to mean that the Others might be the "after death" version of the Stark kings and lords - this is the notion being discussed by several comments in this thread. But that would also mean that they are related by blood to the Stark line. There is a lot of emphasis on the Stark "blood of the First Men" and its significance. The discussion is exploring whether that significance might have to do with Starks becoming The Others after they die.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Seams said:

I think she uses the word "related" here to mean that the Others might be the "after death" version of the Stark kings and lords - this is the notion being discussed by several comments in this thread. But that would also mean that they are related by blood to the Stark line. There is a lot of emphasis on the Stark "blood of the First Men" and its significance. The discussion is exploring whether that significance might have to do with Starks becoming The Others after they die.

Yes, pretty much. I'm not sure how exactly the spirits may be related to the Others - but something about those lower levels of the crypts being broken down and forbidden to visitors and the idea of the Stark spirits being restricted to their tombs only by their swords (which might very well have completely rusted away in the case of the older tombs) seems significant to me.

In fact, there are a few hints that Ned's ghost might be free. There's that visit from his ghost in both Bran and Rickon's dreams in AGOT, and also that curious passage when Arya is in HH, when she hears her father's voice:

Quote

For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya’s skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father’s voice. “When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives,” he said.

“But there is no pack,” she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. “I’m not even me now, I’m Nan.”

“You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you.”

Some really nice ideas in this thread. Seams, I know you like wordplay, so check this out:

Quote

"The Starks are not like other men."  - Catelyn

and also:

Quote

"You Starks are hard to kill."

Well, if there's a possibility they might return as ice-demon revenants, they surely are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh Boy...

21 hours ago, YOVMO said:

This is getting way too fun. ok, lets get jiggy with it.

Indeed they did and indeed it was those darn Andal's who brought iron. But the swords mentioned are always "iron swords"

My best guess at resolving this is that the very earliest (pre Andal) bronze swords were in the oldest chambers that ned mentions have collapsed in on themselves. It could be that the magic of the crypts, and not just the swords, was revoked when Torhen knelt and so where the crypts had nearly 8000 years of not needing to be maintained in order to be perfect, they have been falling apart since. The magic that holds the crypts together is gone so the crypts themselves, not just the swords, are going to pieces. The oldest of the swords that were bronze, along with the stone kings and the thrones they sit on could all be destroyed by now. 

This depends on a great deal of things. I mean, what is the value of an archmaesters key? The answer depends on who is selling and who is buying--what is it face(less man) value har har. It could very well be that an antique iron sword of stark king would fetch more money to the right......collector if you know what I mean. This is why I parenthetically remarked that which king Theon might have taken a sword from might be important. 

If the oldest part of winterfell is the crypts and the oldest part of the crypts is the chamber where the pre Andal invasion Kings of Winter are, imagine it like when Dorian Gray sees his painting and all the aging happens at once...an 8000 year old stone room which has had zero maintenance has the magic holding it together lifted...ceiling crashes, tombs and swords and all are thrown asunder, spirits released.

Exactly. This is a cool bit of thinking If I do pat myself on the back a little bit. Garth asks the COTF for help and is refused. It must have been pretty important. Like he didn't ask for them to help him make a good onion soup. His rebuff leads his son, BOTBB to strike out against the COTF in bloody revenge. COTF turn him into first other which, in time, ushers in the long night. His son, Bran the Builder (of treaties as well as walls and castles) makes a deal to save, pretty much, the whole freaking world and sacrifices his soul and the souls of all future kings of winter (I really want to say that this would make Bran the Builder AA, the souls of the Stark Kings Nisa Nisa and the Wall light bringer but that will take extra tinfoil) and the solemn face of the stark heart tree is solemn as it reflects the kings of winters sacrifice (remember, heart trees very often resemble their lords...think of Manderly's heart tree...with a face that is both fat and angry!)

I currently have Hard Home down as Doom 1.0 and being brought on by the faceless men but that is a whole other post. The faceless men are where I am at my most tin foiley

Where Craster learned this is an EXCELLENT question I had not considered.

This is absolutely true. I think some likely places to look are...whomever it was that Bloodraven replaced or displaced three eye raven or the First First Man

 

Just bit by bit reflex responses Yovmo and @Seams...As I have been reading this entire thread it has been nagging me that Mance has made at 2 prior trips to Winterfell.  Lady Dustin wants to see missing swords and chooses Theon as her guide.   My own little foray into the Crypt Zone, if you will indulge just a bit.  Mance seems to me a man with many agendas.  His greatness in Jon's eyes was in uniting the Wildling nation against the Others.  Melisandre spared him from a wicked death against the will of the guy she thinks is R'hllor's guy.   I think we all think something more is going on with Mance, but a man born north of The Wall, raised at the NW and deserted to become KOBTW needs to make multiple trips to Winterfell--the seat of power in the North?  Why?  Is there some Wildling magic or knowledge in these excursions akin to Craster's own curious knowledge?  Mance's people at least knew enough to say they were looking for the Horn of Joramun.  

I have to keep reminding myself the lower levels are collapsed from above, but as Seams recalls, there is that pool and Ygritte told us about a network of tunnels, Gorne's Way, that at least a small group of us believe may stem as far as Winterfell.   Let's suppose it is as you say in the bowels of the crypts--crushed and crumbled--why would this state of disaster affect the power of the magic binding spirits?  Is it as simple as a sword being displaced or bones exposed?  I see much of our tale in terms of Ice or Fire, so be gentle with me.  Is it likely that a sword is all that Ice would bind it's greatest power with?  Particularly when a magical force like Fire can create Hardhome and Doom like cataclysms?    Oh I do think these swords are integral to the binding of these spirits--I am stabbing at something more here.   I made a comment about the Others waking incrementally.  These are the bastions of Ice Magic akin to dragons of Fire Magic.  Their bonds have to be secure--twine, tether, rope, chain, stone, spells and swords is my thinking--or along those lines if you get my meaning.  (Not literally, this is just how I imagine them coming back to the fore.)   If it's near to truth, I can see where collapsed housings would weaken the bonds, but not break them.  Regardless of the material the sword is made from I have to assume there is some spell (forgotten, no doubt, but inherent) in the burial ritual that offers some sort of protection against catastrophe.  I know I sound like I'm trying to talk myself out of this.   That's not the case.  In this I want to be sure because I really think we're on to something.   How far do you want to go my friend?   

I'm still awestruck by the BtBB vendetta scenario.   I'd like you to consider the 1st glimpses of Northern magic we are given in AWOIAF.  We are given a very short list of Kings: Marsh, Red, Warg and Barrows.  We aren't told what the Red Kings are *SHUDDER*, but we have a decent grasp on the magic capabilities of the Marsh, Barrows and Warg Kings.   Prophecy. Necromancy. Skinchanging.   Nice start.   All I really recall about anywhere else is Garth and his progeny being fertile.   Were there any other especially stunning magics among the descendants of Garth's other children?  Was BtBB's line given these magics because he did the right or wrong thing?   Did all these gifts actually stem from encounters with Children of the Forest?  At some point the Starks, who had no magical blood to speak of, married into the families of these magic kings and took their power all of which became part of the Stark bloodline.   Could all of the original magic kings in the North have been children of BtBB?  I'm struggling to define a Stark line here and doing a lousy job explaining myself.   I expect the Others are part of this somewhere.  Maybe Craster, too.  

20 hours ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I seem to remember a (tinfoily) theory that paired the Valyrians, which are Fire, to the Others, which are Ice. And if the Valyrians prized the incestuous unions to keep pure their dragonriding blood, wouldn't the Others seek children born from incest to make them Others in turn? I know is crackpot and I have little to support the theory, but here you can find some symmetry, and explain Craster's actions (he calls himself a "pious" man) and the Others' apparent recent comeback.

 

Very nice.  It is all about Ice and Fire after all.  

19 hours ago, Seams said:

It seems as if the swords in the tombs were specifically made as what archaeologists would call "grave goods" - the sword Ice doesn't have to go into the tomb with the king, so Mikken (or the previous smiths) make a sword specifically for the tomb. So there must be something special about the way these blades are forged that gives them the ability to hold the soul in the tomb. Or maybe some spell is cast over them after they are forged?

I had been thinking that Jeor Mormont was such a benevolent guy for sparing Jon Snow after he deserted the Night's Watch, in contrast to Ned Stark killing four deserters that year alone. But his closing words to Jon always nagged at me: he said he needed Jon's blood and his direwolf to go beyond the Wall, to fight the real war they were facing and to find Benjen Stark. What if the old northern Mormont family is trying to restore the peace by selling Jon Snow's soul and his direwolf and a special sword (Mormont asks Jon whether he has a grumkin to "magic up your sword") to the vengeful CotF? This could explain why Maege cheered for Robb as King of Winter, while everyone else was cheering for King in the North - she knows that a certain kind of king is needed for the soul sacrifice, and suspects that Robb either is, or can't be, that king. What if Jeor knows that Benjen is trying to undermine this strategy to sacrifice Jon? (But why wouldn't Benjen have warned Jon?)

You know, that whole scene with the northern bannermen reaching the conclusion that Robb must be the King in the North takes on a new meaning if this theory is correct. They may have been dying to get the Starks to wear the crown and call themselves kings again so the safety from the winter and the long night could be restored. Lord Rickard Stark may have known about the responsibility that would pass to him, and he may even have had "the talk" with his oldest son. When Rickard and Brandon both suddenly died, the little father-to-son talk may never have been passed down to Ned. Maybe Ned had no idea that it was essential he die at Winterfell. (Or maybe he did, explaining why he ensured that Lyanna's bones were interred there.) But I was thinking that the bannermen cheering for the King in the North could be like the people who cheer for the bear who is persuaded that he is going to town to marry a beautiful girl when, in fact, he is going to be hunted and eaten. Robb has no idea he is being made into a sacrifice by all these nice northern pals who have been hanging out with him.

There is also a throne connection for Craster - GRRM makes a point of calling attention to the one chair in Craster's keep. Everyone else sits on benches or the floor.

 

Seams, you have an innocuous avatar and write so sweetly.   Who knew you had such a dark dark sense of reason!   I'm loathe to take on the entire North being loyal to the Starks for their sacrifice, but I've learned nothing if not how really awful the lords of Westeros are in this story.    I think we are thinking right along the same lines with the sword materials and possibly in regard to the burial ritual--maybe--who knows what the primary focus should be with so much story and so few facts.  

LOVE the single chair at Craster's Crib.  There is so much in that terrible place and I think you just put your finger on something else we should be thinking about.

2 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Yes, pretty much. I'm not sure how exactly the spirits may be related to the Others - but something about those lower levels of the crypts being broken down and forbidden to visitors and the idea of the Stark spirits being restricted to their tombs only by their swords (which might very well have completely rusted away in the case of the older tombs) seems significant to me.

In fact, there are a few hints that Ned's ghost might be free. There's that visit from his ghost in both Bran and Rickon's dreams in AGOT, and also that curious passage when Arya is in HH, when she hears her father's voice:

 

Oh that was nice.   We've talked around it, but that's exactly what those lower levels are, forbidden to visitors.   Thank you for giving that the definition it needed, Little Scribe.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh boy this is going to take some time.

On October 1, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Blackfyre Bastard said:

My first thought was that the clear hole in your theory was, as Curled Finger pointed out, that the First Men had bronze weapons. But then I thought that you don't need to reconsider; if the iron swords have rusted away but not the bronze ones, then you still have like 5000 odd years worth of vengeful Kings of Winter's souls (how many are those, like 300?) roaming around.

Yes, this is the Occam's Razor version. We have thousands of years of post Andal Kings of Winter it doesn't need to be all. However, there is an elegance I like in the idea that the wall, winterfell and the crypts are held together by magic given to Bran the Builder as part of the deal which involved the stark kings souls and was revoked after Tohren knelt....because 300 years seems about the right amount of time for the decomposition of the nights fort, the wall, the iron swords and the older towers of winterfell. If the oldest part of winterfell is the crypts and the oldest chamber of the crypts is where the pre andal stark kings are buried and if the magic holding its structural integrity together has been revoked (and we already know from AGOT that that room has in fact caved in on itself) then there is no reason to think that the thrones, much less the bronze swords, are still in tact.  That said, yes, your point is totally valid.

 

On October 1, 2016 at 9:06 PM, Seams said:

This is good. This is very good.

High praise. Much thanks

On October 1, 2016 at 9:06 PM, Seams said:

Other Starks are interred in the tombs, but don't have their own statues and swords and direwolves. Maybe you were already taking that into consideration.

Yes indeed. My thinking was that the Starks were more likely to burry their dead the way the first men did....they are very proud of their first men blood....and that would be in barrows presumably so their souls can join the weir net and become one with the collective the way the bones in Bloodravens lair are buried as well as the starks that never ruled winterfell. The Kings of Winter were punished to never going the weirnet (similar to the way Moses was never allowed into Israel) as payment for the crimes of BTBB

On October 1, 2016 at 9:06 PM, Seams said:

It seems as if the swords in the tombs were specifically made as what archaeologists would call "grave goods" - the sword Ice doesn't have to go into the tomb with the king, so Mikken (or the previous smiths) make a sword specifically for the tomb. So there must be something special about the way these blades are forged that gives them the ability to hold the soul in the tomb. Or maybe some spell is cast over them after they are forged? Mikken was not a Stark descendant, as far as we know, so the magic was either something he knew about as a trusted insider, or the magic came from someone other than the smith. If it came from the Crone, that could explain why Old Nan had been at Winterfell so long. She might be the overseer of the pact between the Starks and the CotF.

I do not disagree that the swords were grave goods....however, I do not think that any particular magic was put into the swords...at least not in the last several hundred years. I feel a lot of old knowledge has been lost. The last King of Winter who sat his throne and died king would have been Torrhen's predecessor (father most like). In the nearly 350 years since that happened the method of making a sword that would inter or imprison the soul of the dead king, if it ever existed, seems to have been lost. Whether or not the Lord's of Winterfell would have suffered for this is up for speculation and could work either way. Either a) No. Because only a King would do or B ) yes and Eddard, Rickard, Edwyle etc etc etc are just Others at this point.

 

On October 1, 2016 at 9:06 PM, Seams said:

The stairs or passage to the lower tombs may have collapsed, but what if there was a different way in? Maybe Osha's swim in the bottomless hot spring was an attempt to find the back door to the tombs.

Totally plausible. If I remember correctly, the Crypts are actually larger than winterfell proper. The idea that there is only one way in and out would seem far fetched.

 

On October 1, 2016 at 9:06 PM, Seams said:

Or maybe Theon is saying they are inaccessible because he doesn't want anyone to find how many swords he took.

I am as Tinfoiley as they come. I mean, despite GRRM denying it, I still can't get over thinking Longclaw is Blackfyre. I am fairly absurd. However, in this case I think that the simple answer that Theon just doesn't know is more likely. But then again, oh lord here I go, I do get a Malfoy/Room of Requirement feel from Theon and the Crypts. Damn you seams! Just when I thought I could let something go :) 

On October 1, 2016 at 9:06 PM, Seams said:

I had been thinking that Jeor Mormont was such a benevolent guy for sparing Jon Snow after he deserted the Night's Watch, in contrast to Ned Stark killing four deserters that year alone. But his closing words to Jon always nagged at me: he said he needed Jon's blood and his direwolf to go beyond the Wall, to fight the real war they were facing and to find Benjen Stark. What if the old northern Mormont family is trying to restore the peace by selling Jon Snow's soul and his direwolf and a special sword (Mormont asks Jon whether he has a grumkin to "magic up your sword") to the vengeful CotF? This could explain why Maege cheered for Robb as King of Winter, while everyone else was cheering for King in the North - she knows that a certain kind of king is needed for the soul sacrifice, and suspects that Robb either is, or can't be, that king. What if Jeor knows that Benjen is trying to undermine this strategy to sacrifice Jon? (But why wouldn't Benjen have warned Jon?)

There is a 100% chance that Jeor was up to something. Whether benevolent or not he has tons of stuff in his character that just makes no freaking sense what so ever. I hadn't thought about this possibility. However, I like it quite a lot. This is quality.

 

On October 1, 2016 at 9:06 PM, Seams said:

You know, that whole scene with the northern bannermen reaching the conclusion that Robb must be the King in the North takes on a new meaning if this theory is correct. They may have been dying to get the Starks to wear the crown and call themselves kings again so the safety from the winter and the long night could be restored. Lord Rickard Stark may have known about the responsibility that would pass to him, and he may even have had "the talk" with his oldest son. When Rickard and Brandon both suddenly died, the little father-to-son talk may never have been passed down to Ned. Maybe Ned had no idea that it was essential he die at Winterfell.

You know I think I love you a little bit. Yes.....yes of course there would have been things that Lord Rickard made an adult Brandon aware of and were lost forever when Rickard and Brandon were killed at the same time. Yes. Yes. Oh, and Yes. This is one of those things that almost seems painfully obvious in retrospect. I mean, young Eddard would have learned to meet out justice with his own hand the way he had taught Robb as well as Bran, but there were almost assuredly things he would not have known as it was never thought he would be Lord of Winterfell.

 

On October 1, 2016 at 9:06 PM, Seams said:

Without a lot to go on other than my twitching wordplay antenna, I have suspected that Craster comes from a splintered-off branch of the Stark family.

You know wordplay is one thing I enjoy.  I think Craster is named from the latin Crassus which means to be solid, dense or corse and is the root of our word Crass. That said, in AGOT grrm gives us way too much info about Craster to allow for the belief that he is just some wilding who has a keep and strange mating habits. He is right at the center of everything. He has knowledge of the others....this sons are sacrifices....he knew a lot of things. If he is from a cadet branch of the Stark family and if the others are the souls of dead stark kings repaying a debt to the COTF that BTBB racked up it would make sense. After all, If the 7K end at the wall then Craster is, in a sense, a king -- even if it is just of a small and relatively insignificant kingdom. And, as you so amply point out, his high chair is called a throne more than once.

 

On October 2, 2016 at 0:37 AM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Very similar description and wording used for both. May be something, may be nothing.

 

Very, very, very astute! Good catch.

22 hours ago, Seams said:

I think she uses the word "related" here to mean that the Others might be the "after death" version of the Stark kings and lords - this is the notion being discussed by several comments in this thread.

I believe that best term (and look up words and etymologies I know you will appreciate) "The Revenants of Old Stark Kings"

 

22 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

In fact, there are a few hints that Ned's ghost might be free. There's that visit from his ghost in both Bran and Rickon's dreams in AGOT, and also that curious passage when Arya is in HH, when she hears her father's voice:

This not only makes sense in the picture of the whole, not only makes sense given the mystery about Ned's Bones, not only makes sense in a larger view of the importance of the Crypts, The Stark in Winterfell and 100 other things but also opens up the very real and very cool possibility of running into a Eddard Other. Also, Eddard, hey @seams check this one out, Eddard most likely comes from the same root as the Name Edward. Edward comes from the old english Eadweard. Eadweard comes from the word Ead which means wealth and or happiness (same root as eadith) and Weard which means, wait for it, guard or protector (like the word "to ward"). So what is it that Eddard is protecting?

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Lady Dustin wants to see missing swords and chooses Theon as her guide.

Here we go...the main event. I am starting to believe that @Seams @Curled Finger and I were separated at brith. You all are total nuts in the best ways possible.

Ok, yes, first let me mention that Dustin is a Ryswell by birth which means she has an insane amount of connections to both the Starks, The first men and the old barrow kings. It is totally plausible that Lady Dustin knows a lot of things...part of why she is pissed about the southern ambitions. I am now ready to believe that it is Lady Dustin (at the very least though a catspaw) who might be responsible for getting theon to steal swords. Lady Dustin may very well be one of the chief antagonists in this story.

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Mance seems to me a man with many agendas.  His greatness in Jon's eyes was in uniting the Wildling nation against the Others.  Melisandre spared him from a wicked death against the will of the guy she thinks is R'hllor's guy.

I am not ready to say I am a Rhaeliever but the recent Mance=Rhaegar post brought up a lot of interesting things about Mance. This also plays into his ability to play (here I go again) high harp. So while I am not totally convinced he is Rhaegar Targaryen I do believe he is a high born and it will be revealed who he is in TWOW. I am not sure which side Mance is working for, but I tend to believe that he is on the same side as Bloodraven (whichever that is) There is simply too much information that Mance had and never shared with Jon while at Winterfell to think he isn't up to something rotten involving the forces of Ice.

 

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

et's suppose it is as you say in the bowels of the crypts--crushed and crumbled--why would this state of disaster affect the power of the magic binding spirits?

A couple things. You have it a little backwards here. I think the magic was removed and that is the cause for the collapse not the other way around. That said, if the swords are in fact important for keeping the souls entombed then just picture the scene. You have a room with 100 statues of kings sitting on thrones. Each has a sword on its lap. The ceiling collapses. The swords fall. That said, the swords are something that the stark children play with. They pick them up and jon is covered in flour. In 8000 years it is impossible to imagine that swords weren't picked up. I think it is more likely that the magic of the children (along with the swords) were responsible for keeping the souls there. Maybe once Torrhen knelt and the magic was revoked it was only the swords left that held them in -- and kept the walls up --- but it is hard to buy that the magic wasn't removed and then the swords and then the souls rather than the swords then the magic and then the ghosts.

 

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 I see much of our tale in terms of Ice or Fire, so be gentle with me.  Is it likely that a sword is all that Ice would bind it's greatest power with?  Particularly when a magical force like Fire can create Hardhome and Doom like cataclysms?  

As my name suggests I think that no theory is complete until we shoehorn the faceless men in.  I truly believe you need to mention them overtime hard home and the doom comes up and have a fair belief that we are being set up for Doom 2.0

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 Oh I do think these swords are integral to the binding of these spirits--I am stabbing at something more here.

I see what you did there.

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

  I made a comment about the Others waking incrementally.  These are the bastions of Ice Magic akin to dragons of Fire Magic.  Their bonds have to be secure--twine, tether, rope, chain, stone, spells and swords is my thinking--or along those lines if you get my meaning.  (Not literally, this is just how I imagine them coming back to the fore.)   If it's near to truth, I can see where collapsed housings would weaken the bonds, but not break them.

I love this

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 Regardless of the material the sword is made from I have to assume there is some spell (forgotten, no doubt, but inherent) in the burial ritual that offers some sort of protection against catastrophe.  

Yes but cast by whom. @Seams has suggested the blacksmith but I think that is unlikely. It is possible that it is a blood sacrifice of the king of winter on his deathbed. The statues are carved long before the Lord/KOW dies so, presumably, the sword is too. I am thinking that in his final act the Stark in Winterfell must do something to the sword.....you know....like warg it holy cow that just came to me......how far do I want to go...I want to suggest that Stark Kings are essentially using COTF magic to skin change into swords which are put on the laps of their effigies to be eternally imprisoned  and that the magic has been revoked, the swords have disappeared or been destroyed and now those revenants are the others...that....that is how far I want to go.

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I know I sound like I'm trying to talk myself out of this.   That's not the case.  In this I want to be sure because I really think we're on to something.   How far do you want to go my friend?   

I mean really far.

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

'm still awestruck by the BtBB vendetta scenario.   I'd like you to consider the 1st glimpses of Northern magic we are given in AWOIAF.  We are given a very short list of Kings: Marsh, Red, Warg and Barrows.  We aren't told what the Red Kings are *SHUDDER*, but we have a decent grasp on the magic capabilities of the Marsh, Barrows and Warg Kings.   Prophecy. Necromancy. Skinchanging.   Nice start.   All I really recall about anywhere else is Garth and his progeny being fertile.   Were there any other especially stunning magics among the descendants of Garth's other children?  W

Yeah, we are doing some solid work here. Red kings are pretty frightening though I don't think they will be important...there is some element of world building I suppose. As for Garth's other children...It is not a leap to find special things going on with house Gardener. 

 

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

ould all of the original magic kings in the North have been children of BtBB?  I'm struggling to define a Stark line here and doing a lousy job explaining myself.   I expect the Others are part of this somewhere.  Maybe Craster, too.  

Yes. I am going to say that the Stark Kings and, most likely, Craster all all descendants of BTBB

 

Garth then BTBB who I believe fathered Bran the Builder and from bran the line remains intact for 8000 years.

 

Jeez Louise...I don't smoke but after this I think I need one.....lol loving this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/2/2016 at 5:05 PM, Curled Finger said:

Seams, you have an innocuous avatar and write so sweetly.   Who knew you had such a dark dark sense of reason!   I'm loathe to take on the entire North being loyal to the Starks for their sacrifice, but I've learned nothing if not how really awful the lords of Westeros are in this story.    I think we are thinking right along the same lines with the sword materials and possibly in regard to the burial ritual--maybe--who knows what the primary focus should be with so much story and so few facts. 

It does seem difficult to switch gears and think of the "loyal" northern bannermen as enforcers of a human sacrifice ritual in their devotion to the Stark lords. Others have written in this forum about the Corn King symbolism in the Jon Snow arc, but the notion from YOVMO that this is an ongoing responsibility of Stark kings and lords for many generations might help to tie in some details from the arcs of ALL of the Stark male characters.

@Little Scribe of Naath cites a key passage (Theon dreaming). I believe this dream feast scene links the scene I  was recalling (the bannermen at Riverrun, toasting Robb's restoration as - possibly - the sacrificial king), back to Winterfell. Little Scribe emphasized the lines linking details of the Stark crypt and the White Walkers, but I'll emphasize lines with a different purpose:

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time... until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, and all the others who had ridden south to King’s Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of a table. The miller’s wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran’s life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

(ACoK, Theon V)

Even though it is a prophetic vision of something that has not yet occurred, Theon correctly sees Robb and Grey Wind as essential guests at the Winterfell feast. Robb and Grey Wind arrive at night in a freezing gale. I'm sure there is significance to the individual non-king characters listed as guests at the feast but, for now, I will just note that they are sitting on benches and not in chairs. I think this reflects the imagery of the crypts where, as YOVMO pointed out, only the kings or lords are seated on thrones. Theon wakes immediately after Robb's arrival in his dream, so we don't see whether Robb sits on a bench or chair, but it would be consistent with the symbolism for a chair to be provided for him.

A discussion on another thread led me to think that the cup might be an important factor in the ritual for the sacrifice of a sacred king, so I am interested that Theon fully perceives the switch from a pleasant feast to a death feast after looking up from his cup. (After he awakens, he also summons Maester Luwin, who arrives with a sleep potion that Theon rejects but he does drink some wine to steady his nerves.) This cup and drinking stuff reminded me of a key moment earlier in Clash, when Bran is presiding over - what else? - the Harvest Feast at Winterfell:

…Bran took another sip of the spiced honey wine from his father’s goblet, grateful for something to clutch. The lifelike head of a snarling direwolf was raised on the side of the cup. He felt the silver muzzle pressing against his palm, and remembered the last time he had seen his lord father drink from this goblet.

            It had been the night of the welcoming feast, when King Robert had brought his court to Winterfell. Summer still reigned then….

            And now they are all gone.

 

(ACoK, Bran III)

(First, I just gotta say how much I love GRRM's attention to detail. Bran is feeling the direwolf with his palm. Get it? A palm is both a part of a person's hand but it's also a type of tree. Clever, clever author.)

But I emphasized the bit about the goblet because this could be the clue that identifies the Stark heir who is marked for sacrifice. Like Theon looking up from his cup in his dream, Bran's goblet takes him back in memory to the feast with King Robert and to thoughts of death. The silver direwolf goblet seems to be reserved for the Stark head of the household, and the Stark who drinks from it would be the sacred king - especially at a harvest feast.

Other goblets or vessels: We see Bran later eat the weirwood paste from the bowl with raised faces. Dany has a special drink at the House of the Undying. Joffrey receives a special goblet as a groom's gift before his wedding feast, decorated with sigils of the great houses - he jokes about chipping off the direwolf image. He uses the goblet at the feast where it may be a factor in his death. (The giant goblet was, of course, a gift from his Tyrell father-in-law, and might be part of the Garth Greenhand trail the sleuths are trying to trace in this thread.) Jon gives Sam Tarly an old broken horn and tells him he can use it for a goblet. So the goblet seems like an important part of the ritual for identifying or providing a last meal for the sacrificial king.

Key differences separate Theon and Bran's feast scenes, however: Robb and Grey Wind both arrive "dead" at Theon's feast; by contrast, Summer has been excluded from the Harvest Feast in Bran's arc. Bran wargs into the wolf during and after the feast. I know dozens of threads have discussed Jon Snow resurrecting by warging into Ghost, but the availability of a living direwolf to contain the Stark soul may be important in understanding the nature of this whole sacrificial king process, and whether it is a failure or success from the perspective of those who want to comply with the blood sacrifice pact. If Bran symbolically died when he drank from his father's goblet, he was immediately resurrected by going into his direwolf before returning to his own sleeping body.

The other difference between Theon and Bran's feasts is that Meera and Jojen Reed arrive during Bran's feast. They seem to be charged with protecting Bran, and they go to the god's wood after the feast where Jojen senses Bran inside of Summer.

Maybe my suspicion about the northern bannermen was premature: they may believe that the sacrifice of the Stark king is supposed to be symbolic, and that resurrection is supposed to come about with the help of a direwolf which becomes a temporary vessel for the Stark soul before the human body is revived.

20 hours ago, YOVMO said:

... I do get a Malfoy/Room of Requirement feel from Theon and the Crypts. Damn you seams! Just when I thought I could let something go :) 

...

Ok, yes, first let me mention that Dustin is a Ryswell by birth which means she has an insane amount of connections to both the Starks, The first men and the old barrow kings. It is totally plausible that Lady Dustin knows a lot of things...part of why she is pissed about the southern ambitions. I am now ready to believe that it is Lady Dustin (at the very least though a catspaw) who might be responsible for getting theon to steal swords. Lady Dustin may very well be one of the chief antagonists in this story.

...

Yes but cast by whom. @Seams has suggested the blacksmith but I think that is unlikely. It is possible that it is a blood sacrifice of the king of winter on his deathbed. The statues are carved long before the Lord/KOW dies so, presumably, the sword is too. I am thinking that in his final act the Stark in Winterfell must do something to the sword.....you know....like warg it holy cow that just came to me......how far do I want to go...I want to suggest that Stark Kings are essentially using COTF magic to skin change into swords which are put on the laps of their effigies to be eternally imprisoned  and that the magic has been revoked, the swords have disappeared or been destroyed and now those revenants are the others...that....that is how far I want to go.

Room of requirement! Perfect!

Now see, I had been thinking that maybe Lady Dustin was a secret hero, trying to keep Ned's bones out of the crypt so his soul would be free of the obligation to become an Other, and could help to defend the realms of men. But I like your idea a lot - she was buying the swords and undermining the Starks ever since she found a way to get Theon to steal them! Maybe she went down there with Theon after the wedding feast so she could try to take certain swords she hadn't yet obtained - I imagine she would have wanted Ned's sword, but maybe also Brandon's sword for old time's sake, and Rickard's sword because he wouldn't allow Brandon to marry her. Just the swords that had been taken by Bran, Meera and Osha.

I'm not sure the statues are carved ahead of time. I recall something about having to put a stonemason to work after word of Eddard's death reaches Winterfell.

I stand corrected. Found the reference in Bran I of AGoT, long before Ned was expected to die:

"All creatures dream, I think, yet not as men do."
"Do dead men dream?" Bran asked, thinking of his father. In the dark crypts below Winterfell, a stonemason was chiseling out his father's likeness in granite.
"Some say yes, some no," the maester answered. "The dead themselves are silent on the matter."

Although this, from Bran VII, is the quote I had in mind initially:

Maester Luwin looked up at them numbly, a small grey man with blood on the sleeve of his grey wool robe and tears in his bright grey eyes. "My lords," he said to the sons, in a voice gone hoarse and shrunken, "we … we shall need to find a stonecarver who knew his likeness well …"

Maybe the first stonemason carves out the tomb itself, knowing there is always another Lord in the pipeline, and the statue work starts after the death of the sitting lord? Did the first stonemason die in the Ironborn takeover of Winterfell?

I really like the idea of the Stark warging into the sword! Brainstorm of the Day award goes to YOVMO! If the direwolf is around, maybe the Stark wargs into the wolf. When genuine death is inevitable, or there is no direwolf, he wargs into his sword.

I love the way these ideas are evolving!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a fascinating thread, and I plan to contribute more.

But I am not sure if anyone proposed this here:

Frankly, I believe that White Walkers are future vessels for these vengeful Stark spirits in the crypts to possess and make a pact with Jon - new King of Winter.

Remember that line from Ned's first chapter about "frozen hell reserved for all dead Starks?" That is the "second life" for dead Kings of Winter.

They will become his Kingsguard, as both Ghost and Barristan are described as "white shadows" - two companions and bodyguards of Jon and Dany respectively.

And this small tidbit is why we do not see Uncle Benjen back in the story yet - new Lord Commander of this "icy" Kingsguard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

 

 

Remember that line from Ned's first chapter about "frozen hell reserved for all dead Starks?" 

Holy guacamole!!!!! Welcome and very very very very very well done!!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...