Kings in the North vs. Kings of Winter

[YOVMO]

On October 3, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Seams said:

It does seem difficult to switch gears and think of the "loyal" northern bannermen as enforcers of a human sacrifice ritual in their devotion to the Stark lords.

I am not so sure why it is so difficult to see this. If it was the northern lords being ongoing enforcers of ALL the starks ritual sacrifice, maybe. But a debt needs to be paid to the CoTF for the crimes of Bloody Brandon. That the starks would be the type who would stoically accept this responsibility isn't far from reason and remember, it doesn't just protect other northern lords it protects the daughters, the second sons, the cousins of the stark families. Think about Ned in the black cells of the red keep. The one thing he was most loathe to sacrifice, his honor, he gave away lickety split for Sansa's life.

 

Remember also when Stannis tells Jon that that Karstarks have Stark blood and Jon says "no more than every other northern family"

The It could very well be that all of the north would be undead ice zombies doomed to a miserable eternity if not for just one person every generation or so. That is a discount at twice the price and I think it would be hard for a King not to accept.

 

On October 3, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Seams said:

Bran took another sip of the spiced honey wine from his father’s goblet, grateful for something to clutch. The lifelike head of a snarling direwolf was raised on the side of the cup. He felt the silver muzzle pressing against his palm, and remembered the last time he had seen his lord father drink from this goblet.

            It had been the night of the welcoming feast, when King Robert had brought his court to Winterfell. Summer still reigned then….

            And now they are all gone.

An interesting parallel may be in Luke 22 when Christ is praying on the mountain of olives and beseeches the father ""Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

The cup being spoke of is the need to sacrifice for the sins of the people. He doesn't want the cup but if it is the will of the father then it ought to be done. Much is made out of Bran being the Stark in Winterfell and he is literally passed the cup.

 

On October 3, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Seams said:

Maybe my suspicion about the northern bannermen was premature: they may believe that the sacrifice of the Stark king is supposed to be symbolic,

I believe that this is probably correct for the Lords of Winterfell but only because the knowledge was lost, along with so much else, when the Starks ceased being kings.

 

On October 3, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Seams said:

he was buying the swords and undermining the Starks

There is no secret that lady dustin a) knows how to hold long grudges and b ) is quite anti stark

 

On October 3, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Seams said:

I stand corrected. Found the reference in Bran I of AGoT, long before Ned was expected to die:

This is a super easy mistake to make, but it was something that I picked up on early in my first reading because I knew someone who had overseen his own gravestones creation and it always struck me as morbid.

 

On October 3, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Seams said:

I really like the idea of the Stark warging into the sword! Brainstorm of the Day award goes to YOVMO!

You know, this could mean that Bran the Builder was Azor Ahai (the hero) Nissa Nissa (the sacrifice) and Lightbringer (the mythical sword that ends the long night) all in one (furthering the christ analogy which even more makes Jon seem like AAR) and that the myth of light bringer is about a sword is just mixed up ideas stemming from the grave good sword that the Stark King would have, at the end of his life, committed some form of ritual suicide with.

[Seams]

I've used the search site, pored over each use of the kingly title in the five ASOIAF books and done some more thinking about the ways the author uses the titles of "King in the North," (KitN) "King of Winter," (KoW) and "King beyond the Wall" (KbtW). One explanation that I think is very likely is that the difference between the KitN and the KbtW is the Stark version of the Targaryens vs. the Blackfyres.

My guess would be that the Kings of Winter were the original "kings" and they had descendants who split - one set became the Kings in the North and the other group became the Kings beyond the Wall. Maybe a third set became the Night's Kings? I haven't analyzed the NK references in the text yet, but that might make sense. (Earlier In this thread, several bright minds discussed the possibility that Starks or Stark lords become White Walkers after they die. So it would make sense that the "king" of the Others would be from the Stark bloodline.) Or maybe the Night's Kings ARE the Kings of Winter, come back to life to referee the upcoming conflict between the KitN and the KbtW? Maybe the KitN and the KbtW unite every thousand years or so to DEFEAT the Night's King? Sort of like the Olympians vs. the Titans, or the Norse gods vs. the frost giants.

At any rate, I believe there have been centuries of, essentially, Stark-on-Stark conflict. If we analyze each major clash closely, I would guess that they might mirror or shadow the Blackfyre Rebellions. Since the KbtW title is not hereditary, maybe the conflict with the KitN occurs only when a person with Stark blood takes the title of KbtW for a generation.

Of course, the Wall would have been built as a peacekeeping gesture, to try to prevent the KitN from coming into contact with the KbtW. But the Starks are also drawn to the Night's Watch, and several have become Lord Commanders over the years. Something about going beyond the Wall (or the Stark-descended free folk who travel below the Wall) stirs the blood and gets the old conflict going again.

The original sword Ice may have gone to the Kings beyond the Wall, which is why a replacement Ice was made for the Winterfell Stark family and no one can quite remember what happened to the original. I'm guessing that the original Ice - broken - may have been in that cart load of treasures the free folk had to give up when Jon Snow let them pass through the tunnel beneath the wall, although that might be too simple an explanation. (If it is the broken sword in the wagonload of valuables, I would love to think that it is bound for East Watch, with the intention that it will be traded for food in Essos. Instead, it will fall into the hands of Rickon Stark . . . ) Because the KbtW title is not hereditary, as we are reminded several times, the original sword Ice may have been retained by some free folk clan that took the title at one point and we will find it in their hands.

The Horn of Winter, also known as the Horn of Joramun, was also handed down by the Kings of Winter. I suspect that it is the broken horn that Jon found at the Fist of the First Men and gave to Sam. Maybe the horn was not given to either "side" in the conflict between the KitN and the KbtW but was left to be found by a "true" king, sort of the way that Excalibur could be pulled from the stone only when King Arthur put his hands on it.

The bronze and iron crown of the Kings of Winter with the nine small greatswords arranged as spikes, on the other hand, went to the KitN. One side gets the sword, the other gets the crown. Of course, Torrhen Stark, the king who knelt, surrendered the crown to Aegon. But there is specific information that Aegon did not twist or melt down the swords taken from the northern bannermen. He took them but did not melt them into the Iron Throne, in other words. So maybe the crown is somewhere with the northern swords that were confiscated.

There is an ancient carved stone seat and a silver goblet at Winterfell that are associated with the KitN and Lord of Winterfell. I don't know if they are part of the Stark vs. Stark conflict, or later elements that are only relevant to the Winterfell Starks.

There are some details that repeat in a couple of places that seem like they will be important to sorting out this Stark vs. Stark conflict. First, it's worth looking at the historical and/or legendary figures mentioned in the books:

• Gorne was King-beyond-the-Wall. Gendel & Gorne killed the King in the North. The son of the KitN killed Gorne.
• A KBtW named Raymun Redbeard successfully got past the Night's Watch and the Wall but was slain by the younger brother of Lord Stark at Long Lake (the Lord of Winterfell, William, was beheaded).
• “Red-bearded Gerrick Kingsblood brought three daughters. ‘They will make fine wives, and give their husbands strong sons of royal blood,’ he boasted. ‘Like their father, they are descended from Raymun Redbeard, who was King-Beyond-the-Wall.’

"Blood meant little and less amongst the free folk, Jon knew.” (ADwD, Jon XII)

 

• Bael the Bard was KBtW. He was killed by his own son, Lord Stark, at the Frozen Ford. (I believe Stark did not know Bael was his father.)
• Sam finds a Night's Watch history book written by Redwyn that mentions Dorren Stark as King in the North. The book describes a ranging party into the far north.
• There are numerous references to Torrhen Stark being the last KitN.

If the climbers reached the top of the Wall undetected, however, everything changed. Given time, they could carve out a toehold for themselves up there, throwing up ramparts of their own and dropping ropes and ladders for thousands more to clamber over after them. That was how Raymun Redbeard had done it, Raymun who had been King-Beyond-the-Wall in the days of his grandfather's grandfather. Jack Musgood had been the lord commander in those days. Jolly Jack, he was called before Redbeard came down upon the north; Sleepy Jack, forever after. Raymun's host had met a bloody end on the shores of Long Lake, caught between Lord Willam of Winterfell and the Drunken Giant, Harmond Umber. Redbeard had been slain by Artos the Implacable, Lord Willam's younger brother. The Watch arrived too late to fight the wildlings, but in time to bury them, the task that Artos Stark assigned them in his wroth as he grieved above the headless corpse of his fallen brother.

Jon did not intend to be remembered as Sleepy Jon Snow.

(ADwD, Jon II)

There are a couple of references to kings or would-be kings being squeezed between the Starks coming up and the Night's Watch and/or KbtW's forces coming down. So we may see a replay of that situation, with someone trying to invade the North from beyond the Wall but finding their forces are hit from both sides.

There are also a couple of references to the KitN successfully defending the Neck at Moat Cailin. I'm not sure this has to do with the Stark vs. Stark scenario I'm envisioning, but it is mentioned a couple of times in connection with the KitN so it may foreshadow something.

There are also a couple or three references to the wildlings being fierce and determined but disorganized and ineffective as a fighting force. (One of these references is in a prologue, and prologues seem to hold important clues.) Mance tells Jon Snow that the King beyond the Wall is recognized and accepted only if he is a good fighter, but I think the "next step" that has never been taken is for that king to organize, train and lead the wildlings in battle in a way that will be more effective.

There are also a couple of places where the Kings in the North are referred to as "hard": Ned thinks of them as "hard as the land they ruled" (AGoT, Eddard I) and Maester Luwin tells Osha, "They were the Kings in the North for thousands of years,... Hard men for a hard time" (AGoT, Bran VII). My suspicion is that these "hard" descriptions hint that Hardhome was the original seat of the Starks, before they split into separate clans.

There are some possible wordplay clues that intrigue me. The old book that Sam finds, with the reference to "Dorren Stark" makes me wonder about a Dorne connection. Maybe Quaithe's prophecy, "To go north, you must journey south," means that there was some kind of circumnavigation that connected the far north of Westeros with the southern part of the continent. If so, Arya's name for her wolf might make more sense. The other thing that struck me as a potential Dorne parallel is the bit about the swords the northerners had to give up to Aegon the Conqueror: "... the swords Aegon collected from Lord [Torrhen] Stark and his vassals were not twisted or melted or bent" (TWOIAF, The Reign of the Dragons). Something about that phrasing reminds me of "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken." GRRM coined that word "Southron" to refer to the southern part of the country. Read backwards, of course, the word becomes "northuos." This is also not a word in English, but its first syllable brings us back to the north . . . Also, Torrhen's "frozen knees" remind me of Prince Doran's swollen joints. (I also have some thoughts about Mance singing "The Dornishman's Wife," but I don't want to get too tinfoil here.)

The other wordplay that seems significant comes in a Jon POV where we meet a northern lord who is known as The Norrey, instead of Lord Norrey, like all the other lords. Could this be "norrth eye"? Or, at least, some kind of allusion to Torrhen Stark. (If "Torrhen Stark" is an anagram, could it be "north" + "Kraster"? As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I think Craster is a splinter line from House Stark.) The Norrey refers to the northern lords having to send children as wards / hostages to the old "Kings o' Winter." If a lord misbehaved, the kid would be sent back a head shorter. The reader (and Roy Dotrice) imagine a lot of characters speaking with accents, but GRRM doesn't often write out the details of their dialect, so I think it's significant that The Norrey refers to the Kings o' Winter instead of the Kings of Winter. Maybe an anagram hint.

I'm still intrigued by Osha's statement that, "Winter's got no king" (AGoT, Bran VII). Maybe this tells us that the Kings of Winter are missing and are needed to return and prevent winters from lasting for years.

I'll be curious if anyone can come up with better evidence to support or refute the idea of the "Blackfyre Starks." I know I'm not the first one to suspect that GRRM is lining up a Jon Snow vs. Bran Stark conflict. And who knows how Rickon and/or Arya and Sansa might figure into the story. I'll keep looking over my notes and see if I can pull out any other clues or hints that might clarify what's going on with the various northern kings.

 

[YOVMO]

15 hours ago, Seams said:

"Dorren Stark" makes me wonder about a Dorne connection.

The account that Sam reads is by a ranger named Redwyn. What are the odds that Redwyn is either a misreading, miswriting or ancient for of Redwyne? If so, the Redwynes are decedents of Gilbert the Grape (a brother of Brandon of the Bloody Blade and uncle (most likely) to Bran the Builder. If so, it is possible that Dorren Stark around the time of the Andal invasion. Now there were a lot of different ways people tried dealing with the Andals. Gwayne IV Gardener sent warriors out to the CoTF to ask for help with their magic and greenseers in throwing back the invaders. Mern II Garndener built a new curtain wall on High Garden and commanded his lords bannermen to see to their own defenses. However it is HIS son, Mern II Gardener, known as Mern the Madling, who sought out a woods witch who claimed she could raise armies of the dead and "showered her with gold and honors" It is the same players....House Gardener, House Stark (through BotBB and, here King Dorren) House Redwyne (Lord REdwyne was building ships at the time) the CoTF, armies of the dead. Just some off the cuff thoughts for you.

 

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The king in the north is the terrestrial name for the lord of Winterfell , who defeated all the other kings ,beat back the Andals, the Wildlings ,and the Iron Born . King of Winter is the sacred king title of the lord of Winterfell who defeated the Others and the Warg king and built the Wall and the Night's Watch ,his job also to protect the people from winter itself .

[nlspeed]

This thread has some incredibly interesting posts. And they made me think; 'the lone wolf dies, the pack survives' - one Stark is sacrificed, so that his whole pack - the other Starks, and, as all the Northern families have about equal amounts of Stark blood, the whole North - may survive.

It would make sense, for Eddard to be raised with these values (honour) and truisms (such as the above), just as Brandon was raised - but Brandon would know the underlying meaning, too.

One thing that doesn't quite fit, in my opinion, is the Bolton family. The Red Kings, the flaying, the allusions to blood, vampirism... I feel that this is a major second part to what is discussed here?

[Seams]

5 hours ago, nlspeed said:

This thread has some incredibly interesting posts. And they made me think; 'the lone wolf dies, the pack survives' - one Stark is sacrificed, so that his whole pack - the other Starks, and, as all the Northern families have about equal amounts of Stark blood, the whole North - may survive.

It would make sense, for Eddard to be raised with these values (honour) and truisms (such as the above), just as Brandon was raised - but Brandon would know the underlying meaning, too.

One thing that doesn't quite fit, in my opinion, is the Bolton family. The Red Kings, the flaying, the allusions to blood, vampirism... I feel that this is a major second part to what is discussed here?

I agree that there are unanswered questions about the Boltons and how they fit with all this. They resisted the Stark rule and the World Book is vague about when or whether the Boltons fully swore fealty to the Starks. What are your ideas?

We know the ancient Boltons flayed Starks and made cloaks with their skins. (And I've been trying to notice how many characters say they would like a wolfskin - Stiv in the scene with Bran, Robb and Theon in the wolfs wood (iirc); one of the Frey wards at Winterfell; Cersei wanting "the king she thought to marry" to lay a wolf skin across her bed, etc.)

I have this sneaking suspicion that there may be an unexpected revelation that the ancient Starks really were perceived as monstrous werewolves, and that the Boltons were the ones who saw them for what they were and battled them instead of conceding as the other northmen did. But I can't prove that, of course.

And this general interest in having or wearing a wolfskin seems to coincide with people who are hungry for power. But maybe there's another meaning?

[Scorpion92]

I am of the opinion that if the theories about Starks sharing blood with the Others are true, then judging by the description of Roose's eyes, then Bolton line might descend from the Others as well.

Now, this is pure speculation, but maybe the original founder of House Bolton was a bastard Stark who did not inherit the skinchanging abilities of his trueborn siblings and envied his position and tried to usurp Winterfell and the title King of Winter from trueborn Starks? 

That will tie up nicely with Roose Bolton taking over Winterfell as generations of Boltons probably wanted to do so (fulfilling the original mission of the very first Bolton) and the whole bastard angle with Ramsay (how he always wanted to be Bolton so much and the cruelty he gained from this desire - just like the original Bolton with Starks).

But that is just me.

[Seams]

3 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

I am of the opinion that if the theories about Starks sharing blood with the Others are true, then judging by the description of Roose's eyes, then Bolton line might descend from the Others as well.

Now, this is pure speculation, but maybe the original founder of House Bolton was a bastard Stark who did not inherit the skinchanging abilities of his trueborn siblings and envied his position and tried to usurp Winterfell and the title King of Winter from trueborn Starks? 

That will tie up nicely with Roose Bolton taking over Winterfell as generations of Boltons probably wanted to do so (fulfilling the original mission of the very first Bolton) and the whole bastard angle with Ramsay (how he always wanted to be Bolton so much and the cruelty he gained from this desire - just like the original Bolton with Starks).

But that is just me.

Holy blood feud, Batman! I love this!

Of course my wordplay radar immediately goes into action and I speculate: Bolton = Not lobo? (Lobo is the word for a timber wolf in the southwest U.S. and Mexico, around where GRRM lives . . . )

One of the many crackpot notions I ponder is whether Roose was really the father of the baby born to the Miller's wife. Since Lady Dustin tells us that Ned's brother Brandon liked to deflower virgins, I wondered whether one of the upcoming twists might be the Ramsay is really a Stark bastard, not a Bolton bastard. That would make your idea about Roose's heritage even more interesting - the Starks outplay and outlast the Boltons yet again. (Although I hope that Ramsay won't end up in possession of Winterfell, anyway.)

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Scorpion92 said:

I am of the opinion that if the theories about Starks sharing blood with the Others are true, then judging by the description of Roose's eyes, then Bolton line might descend from the Others as well.

Now, this is pure speculation, but maybe the original founder of House Bolton was a bastard Stark who did not inherit the skinchanging abilities of his trueborn siblings and envied his position and tried to usurp Winterfell and the title King of Winter from trueborn Starks? 

That will tie up nicely with Roose Bolton taking over Winterfell as generations of Boltons probably wanted to do so (fulfilling the original mission of the very first Bolton) and the whole bastard angle with Ramsay (how he always wanted to be Bolton so much and the cruelty he gained from this desire - just like the original Bolton with Starks).

But that is just me.

That is kinda creepy!

Also, it sorta fits with the stories we hear of past Boltons skinning the Starks and wearing them as a cloak... which is sort of a mortal, wannabe version of skinchanging.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Apologies if I'm repeating anybody.

I would make two guesses:

1. The terms are interchangeable, like "England" and "Britain" used to be, or:
2. The Kings of Winter preceded the Kings in the North.

On the latter point, my thinking is that at some point, the King of Winter changed his title to King in the North as part of some political settlement. Imagine if you're the Barrow King, or some other Northern king. You've spent thousands of years fighting these Kings of Winter. Acquiescing to their rule would sting. But if they changed their names to Kings in the North, as if your kingdom is still retaining its separate identity, merely doing homage to the Starks as some sort of over-king, then you might be more inclined to go along with it.

It's kind of similar to when Germany invented the European Union. All the countries who bitterly objected to German domination in the 30's and 40's are now perfectly happy to be subjected to it, as long as it's called the European Union, and not "the Fourth Reich."

[Neds Secret]

13 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Apologies if I'm repeating anybody.

I would make two guesses:

1. The terms are interchangeable, like "England" and "Britain" used to be, or:
2. The Kings of Winter preceded the Kings in the North.

On the latter point, my thinking is that at some point, the King of Winter changed his title to King in the North as part of some political settlement. Imagine if you're the Barrow King, or some other Northern king. You've spent thousands of years fighting these Kings of Winter. Acquiescing to their rule would sting. But if they changed their names to Kings in the North, as if your kingdom is still retaining its separate identity, merely doing homage to the Starks as some sort of over-king, then you might be more inclined to go along with it.

It's kind of similar to when Germany invented the European Union. All the countries who bitterly objected to German domination in the 30's and 40's are now perfectly happy to be subjected to it, as long as it's called the European Union, and not "the Fourth Reich."

Nonsense, it would seem really obvious that the Kings of Winter were the King that emerged from the dreadful winter victorious, hence they are not interchangeable as one begets the other, with the Kings of Winter being vastly superior kings.

[Lord Varys]

The best take on the Starks styling themselves 'Kings of Winter' is that their power might have been greatest in winter in the early days when there were many kings in the North. Winterfell is ideally situated in the North to prevail in winter due to its hot springs, and we know that even to this day the mountains migrate to the Winter Town in winter.

Back when the North was still fractured and warfare was constant Northmen from even more distant regions might have gone to Winterfell to ask the 'Kings of Winter' (i.e. perhaps the kings whom you acknowledged as kings especially in winter even if you yourself wear a crown) for their hospitality.

The Starks helping their fellow Northmen out in very hard winters could also very well be the foundation for their eventual rise to supreme power in the North. Sure, the Starks also conquered many other kingdoms in the North, etc. but one wonders whether the basis for the fierce loyalty they inspired in some of their (later) bannermen might have to do with the help they traditionally offer to anybody who is suffering in winter.

[ravenous reader]

On 10/15/2016 at 2:27 PM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

The king in the north is the terrestrial name for the lord of Winterfell , who defeated all the other kings ,beat back the Andals, the Wildlings ,and the Iron Born . King of Winter is the sacred king title of the lord of Winterfell who defeated the Others and the Warg king and built the Wall and the Night's Watch ,his job also to protect the people from winter itself .

I like the classification of 'terrestrial' (which I interpret in the sense of 'mundane') vs. 'sacred,' since I suspect the King of Winter always has to be a warg/greenseer (that's why their statues in the crypt all have direwolves at their feet)-- the King in the North not necessarily so -- although of course these titles could overlap if applied to the same person.

On 12/20/2016 at 9:50 AM, nlspeed said:

This thread has some incredibly interesting posts. And they made me think; 'the lone wolf dies, the pack survives' - one Stark is sacrificed, so that his whole pack - the other Starks, and, as all the Northern families have about equal amounts of Stark blood, the whole North - may survive.

Nice.  I like your interpretation.  All of GRRM's oft-repeated (to the point of becoming falsely hackneyed) aphorisms harbor some deeper alternative significance: 'Winter is coming', 'dark wings dark words' and 'words are wind,' etc., as well as the one you referenced, are all not what we think they mean.  

Contrary to expectation, I think the lone wolf who sacrifices himself for the good of the pack is going to be Bran rather than Jon -- although I believe Jon is the King of Winter.  That's how I interpret the following:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

"Yes," Catelyn agreed. The words gave her a chill, as they always did. The Stark words. Every noble house had its words. Family mottoes, touchstones, prayers of sorts, they boasted of honor and glory, promised loyalty and truth, swore faith and courage. All but the Starks. Winter is coming, said the Stark words. Not for the first time, she reflected on what a strange people these northerners were.

"The man died well, I'll give him that," Ned said. He had a swatch of oiled leather in one hand. He ran it lightly up the greatsword as he spoke, polishing the metal to a dark glow. "I was glad for Bran's sake. You would have been proud of Bran."

"I am always proud of Bran," Catelyn replied, watching the sword as he stroked it. She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty.

The man who will 'die well' is going to Bran, hence the sneaky juxtaposition by GRRM here of Bran, the sword, and the discussion about facing ones death head-on (pardon the pun).

Then this:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran I

Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly.

"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."

In order to save his people and likely the world, Bran will be faced with having to do all three: pass the sentence, swing the sword and be the one to die.  Incredibly difficult for one person -- even a greenseer -- to do by himself without flinching.

'Passing the sentence' and 'swinging the sword' are metaphors and not to be taken literally...e.g. he might 'swing the sword' by skinchanging a dragon or even a comet, resulting in his death.

16 hours ago, Seams said:

Of course my wordplay radar immediately goes into action and I speculate: Bolton = Not lobo? (Lobo is the word for a timber wolf in the southwest U.S. and Mexico, around where GRRM lives . . . )

Ha ha.  That has to be one of the 'loopy-er' anagrams!

[Seams]

On 10/6/2016 at 6:22 PM, YOVMO said:

You know, this could mean that Bran the Builder was Azor Ahai (the hero) Nissa Nissa (the sacrifice) and Lightbringer (the mythical sword that ends the long night) all in one (furthering the christ analogy which even more makes Jon seem like AAR) and that the myth of light bringer is about a sword is just mixed up ideas stemming from the grave good sword that the Stark King would have, at the end of his life, committed some form of ritual suicide with.

 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Contrary to expectation, I think the lone wolf who sacrifices himself for the good of the pack is going to be Bran rather than Jon -- although I believe Jon is the King of Winter.  That's how I interpret the following:

The man who will 'die well' is going to Bran, hence the sneaky juxtaposition by GRRM here of Bran, the sword, and the discussion about facing ones death head-on (pardon the pun).

Then this:

In order to save his people and likely the world, Bran will be faced with having to do all three: pass the sentence, swing the sword and be the one to die.  Incredibly difficult for one person -- even a greenseer -- to do by himself without flinching.

'Passing the sentence' and 'swinging the sword' are metaphors and not to be taken literally...e.g. he might 'swing the sword' by skinchanging a dragon or even a comet, resulting in his death.

This is getting very interesting! You guys are setting off all kinds of connections in my mind. RR, I think your interpretation of those passages that refer to Bran and the sword are spot on. Very nice catch. 

If Bran will be warging into the sword (or dragon or comet), the rippling Catelyn sees in the blade, where the metal was folded back upon itself hundreds of times, could refer to the time loop ideas around Bran. Maybe Brandon Starks have been sacrificed so many times over the years that it is like the forging of the gigantic blade of the greatsword Ice.

Of course, we also have Bran presiding over the harvest feast at Winterfell, drinking from his father's goblet, receiving the oaths of Jojen and Meera, and then being carried out on Hodor's back.

I bet Bran Stark witnessing the execution by Ned is the inciting event that foreshadows restoration of summer and/or the balance of seasons. He was witnessing his own future death. Wow.

This renewed discussion makes me want to better understand all four of the "northern" kings: King in the North, King of Winter, King Beyond the Wall and Night's King. Maybe I should offer a tl;dr summary of key points from earlier posts (my own and some insights from others) in this thread:

Stark factions have battled each other in ways similar to the Targaryen / Blackfyre conflicts. At some point, the Wall was built to separate the battling factions. Previously, the single top Stark had been King of Winter. With the "truce" created by the Wall, each faction now had a title: "King in the North" and "King Beyond the Wall." The King in the North took the crown associated with the King of Winter, and the King Beyond the Wall took possession of the original sword Ice. (The King in the North faction later had another sword made with the same name.) Every once in awhile, the two factions unite to defeat a common foe, or clash with each other when someone from Beyond the Wall crosses into the North.

The Stark burial customs, with the souls of dead Stark kings and lords held within their tombs by the swords placed across their laps, is somehow a key part of maintaining the Beyond- and Below-the-Wall balance of "Stark blood." It is possible that Theon was stealing and selling burial swords from the Stark tombs, and this "set free" some of the ancient Stark souls. Those Stark souls may have become the Others. (Although a new thought is that the removed swords and freed souls might also account for Cold Hands and/or the mysterious hooded man Theon / Reek later encounters at Winterfell.)

@YOVMOfurther theorized that there was an ancient pact / curse: "Eventually Brandon the Builder seeks out the COTF to make amends for his father's crimes and a deal is struck: Brandon is given the tools to end the long night (build the Wall, raise Winterfell) but in turn a sacrifice had to be made. The line of Brandon of the Bloody Blade had to be punished. And so it was agreed that as part of their service, the Kings of Winter, in perpetuity, would sacrifice their souls. They would be condemned to never become one with the collective. This was the punishment for the crimes of Bloody Brandon and the price of Kingship."

@Curled Fingeradded: "Would all of the original magic kings in the North have been children of BtBB?  I'm struggling to define a Stark line here and doing a lousy job explaining myself. I expect the Others are part of this somewhere. Maybe Craster, too."

So Craster's sacrifices of his infant sons is part of this pact / curse that pledged Stark blood as atonement to the Children of the Forest. (There is a subsequent thread elsewhere discussing whether Craster is a Stark. I now believe that Craster is descended from the original King Beyond the Wall, and he is part of the blood pact. That might explain why Craster also regards Mance Rayder with contempt - he would see him as a know-nothing pretender.)

What this thread didn't explore was the fourth northern king: the Night's King. Now I'm thinking that Bran might be that fourth king, based on the ideas YOVMO and ravenous reader offered, as well as this thought: what if weirwood represents the pale, corpse-like "bride" of the Night's King? Bran Stark ate the weirwood paste - did he just "give his seed" to the trees? Or accept their seed?

Or, if Craster is the "real" King Beyond the Wall, maybe Mance is actually the Night's King. In the symbolic sense, of course.

Don't feel obligated to begin and end with the four summary paragraphs I provided, above. There are a lot of other good ideas in comments on this thread, and all we can do is make our best educated guesses unless or until GRRM reveals the real story.

[ravenous reader]

On 10/6/2016 at 6:22 PM, YOVMO said:

An interesting parallel may be in Luke 22 when Christ is praying on the mountain of olives and beseeches the father ""Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."

The cup being spoke of is the need to sacrifice for the sins of the people. He doesn't want the cup but if it is the will of the father then it ought to be done. Much is made out of Bran being the Stark in Winterfell and he is literally passed the cup.

Connected to this idea of sacrificing for the pack:

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

She finished for him. "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

"Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not."

And it's also connected to Arya and the faceless men passing the liberating 'gift' of death to the pilgrims via the cup taken from the black pool.

Whereas Ned was reluctant to make the sacrifices -- and did so with a certain bitterness -- I believe Bran will make the sacrifice willingly -- and that will make all the difference.  For all his loyalty and honor and love, Ned was not very courageous -- he couldn't even stand up to Robert Baratheon without flinching and killing a direwolf (symbolically, killing one of his own was hardly 'saving the pack').  Bran, however, will make good on his father's and other ancestors' deficiencies and provide a fitting resolution to the story.

4 hours ago, Seams said:

This is getting very interesting! You guys are setting off all kinds of connections in my mind. RR, I think your interpretation of those passages that refer to Bran and the sword are spot on. Very nice catch. 

I actually think it's your idea originally (when you introduced the idea of Ned's rather ominous proclamation of the deserter being 'fourth this year' as possibly referring to Bran) -- but thanks!  We all inspire each other .

Quote

If Bran will be warging into the sword (or dragon or comet), the rippling Catelyn sees in the blade, where the metal was folded back upon itself hundreds of times, could refer to the time loop ideas around Bran. Maybe Brandon Starks have been sacrificed so many times over the years that it is like the forging of the gigantic blade of the greatsword Ice.

I've always loved the expression 'one but overwrinkled' (which Jojen and Meera used to describe the undulating landscape's twists and turns, ups and downs) which has an obvious parallel to the 'waves of night and blood' of Oathkeeper rippling and lapping at each.  @Pain killer Jane then pointed out that the 'overwrinkled' might be a reference to 'A Wrinkle in Time' by Madeleine L'Engle, which also describes a time projection and looping phenomenon.

Your idea of 'justice' being a play on 'just Ice' also puts a spin on Ned's words when he cautions Bran that 'justice will fall to you...'  Fall to in the sense of 'felling' (executing) and fall on in the sense of 'befelling' (being executed) might be the same thing.  This is the same kind of wordplay inherent in 'Winterfell,' which includes the dual movements of descent vs. ascent; arrival vs. departure; triumph vs. defeat...Bran's fall from the tower at Winterfell paradoxically enabled him to fly and ushered in the Winter; and Bran's flight into space again entailing a fall will usher in the Spring.  Bran's the fallen Star-k -- as @evita mgfs told us so long ago.  The star which falls is the same star which rises.

Talking of ice, if @LmL is correct about the return of the ice meteor, then manoeuvring it successfully is akin to wielding Ice.  Alternatively -- this is the version I prefer for my own aesthetic reasons -- if Bran wields Drogo that is akin to wielding the ultimate Valyrian steel sword (he's also black-and-red with rippling scales which lap over each other like waves of night and blood).  Even the dragon's eggs from whence they sprang resemble weapons:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II

Magister Illyrio murmured a command, and four burly slaves hurried forward, bearing between them a great cedar chest bound in bronze. When she opened it, she found piles of the finest velvets and damasks the Free Cities could produce … and resting on top, nestled in the soft cloth, three huge eggs. Dany gasped. They were the most beautiful things she had ever seen, each different than the others, patterned in such rich colors that at first she thought they were crusted with jewels, and so large it took both of her hands to hold one. She lifted it delicately, expecting that it would be made of some fine porcelain or delicate enamel, or even blown glass, but it was much heavier than that, as if it were all of solid stone. The surface of the shell was covered with tiny scales, and as she turned the egg between her fingers, they shimmered like polished metal in the light of the setting sun. One egg was a deep green, with burnished bronze flecks that came and went depending on how Dany turned it. Another was pale cream streaked with gold. The last was black, as black as a midnight sea, yet alive with scarlet ripples and swirls. "What are they?" she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder.

The way I envision it, fire and ice cancel each other out in space; the excesses of magic are dissipated in one fell swoop; Bran gets to be a knight and to fly like he always wanted; however sacrificing himself and Drogo in the process; the planet saved and we have our bittersweet ending.  It would be incredibly heroic for Bran to skinchange either of them, since skinchanging a burning animal, tree or other object is agony for a greenseer (as @GloubieBoulga has noted, dragons are fire made flesh, so it shouldn't be possible to do) -- that's precisely why Bran would have to be so brave, not look away, and step into the fire (which is the heart of ice, by the way).

Oh, one last thing:  I think he'll be known as 'Bran the bridger' -- for bridging the abyss=space, just as foreshadowed by Ned in the same scene:

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart. But not Bran. Never Bran. "Yes," she said, "but please, Ned, for the love you bear me, let Bran remain here at Winterfell. He is only seven."

"I was eight when my father sent me to foster at the Eyrie," Ned said. "Ser Rodrik tells me there is bad feeling between Robb and Prince Joffrey. That is not healthy. Bran can bridge that distance. He is a sweet boy, quick to laugh, easy to love. Let him grow up with the young princes, let him become their friend as Robert became mine. Our House will be the safer for it."

I also think going from the rookery to the belltower might have something to do with the 'bridging' saviour he's bound to be, although the exact meaning of that recurring image remains elusive.

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Of course, we also have Bran presiding over the harvest feast at Winterfell, drinking from his father's goblet, receiving the oaths of Jojen and Meera, and then being carried out on Hodor's back.

I bet Bran Stark witnessing the execution by Ned is the inciting event that foreshadows restoration of summer and/or the balance of seasons. He was witnessing his own future death. Wow.

Yes, indeed.  Recall, shortly after the execution he's presented with the gift of Summer his direwolf.

I also think he literally saw his fate in the 'coma dream' after breaking through the 'curtain of light at the end of the world' -- the Aurora Borealis, Northern or Dawn Lights -- signifying the limits of the planet's atmosphere.  After breaking through, I posit he got close to the comet (although @LmL has subsequently suggested he was actually in the comet itself, perhaps in its very heart or riding it somehow!)  Wherever he was, he was close enough to feel the heat and see the fire (that's why his tears 'burned' on his cheeks, once he'd emerged from the vision).

Finally, it's my opinion that's the ultimate hidden meaning of 'Winter is coming!'  -- 'the terrible knowledge' he caught sight of -- signifying the comet is coming bringing the Long Night, his ancestor's legacy which now 'falls' to Bran to deal with.  It's like catching a boomerang thrown by another Bran (a boomerang happens to have a curved sickle type of appearance in addition to looping back for the karmic leg in its trajectory, in line with the 'rippling' and 'overwrinkling' idea, which is why I like using it as an analogy).  In the end, the particular brand (do you see what I did there..? ) of justice which appeals to GRRM is a poetic justice, seen against the backdrop of the vicious recirculations of history, and tinged with the blood of the innocent.

4 hours ago, Seams said:

What this thread didn't explore was the fourth northern king: the Night's King. Now I'm thinking that Bran might be that fourth king, based on the ideas YOVMO and ravenous reader offered, as well as this thought: what if weirwood represents the pale, corpse-like "bride" of the Night's King? Bran Stark ate the weirwood paste - did he just "give his seed" to the trees? Or accept their seed?

That's an excellent thought!

'Under the sea, merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed...' -- those are wedding gowns those 'wise red leaves'..!

That means that the weirwood itself is a white sword (didn't you also once speculate that the corpse bride was presented as a sword, akin to Asha and Rob viewing their weapons as spouses, etc.?).

Good question about the seed.  Seen from the perspective of a marriage consummated (partaking of the weirwood paste 'weds' Bran to the trees, so it's like a marital consummation), accepting someone's seed is the same as seeding them, from a certain perspective.  The result of this cross-fertilization is offspring representing a combination of the two parties.  In short, Bran colonized the weirwood which also colonized him.  Mutual 'interpenetration.'

[LmL]

Hey, so @Seams, I read the OP but not all of the comments - did you ever figure out that the only difference between the Kings of Winter and the King in the North is time, not life / death? It's not really subjective, it's actually clearly spelled out.

From TWOIAF:

Song and story tell us that the Starks of Winterfell have ruled large portions of the lands beyond the Neck for eight thousand years, styling themselves the Kings of Winter (there ancient usage) and (in more recent centuries) the Kings in the North. 

It goes on to mention that the last Red King of the Dreadfort was defeated by a King in the North even as the Andals started arriving, so we know it was KoW until at least that recently. However it may not be this clear, as AGOT talks about the same of the sword Ice going back to the "Age of Heroes" when the Starks were Kings in the North.. The age of heroes was supposedly before the LN, while Brandon the Builder may have lived any time from the Dawn Age to right after the LN, when WF was supposedly built. Just goes to show why I consider all of this ancient history to be up for grabs, chronologically. But the point is, KoW is the older version, KitN is the newer one. 

Both Kings of Winter and Kings in the North are to be found in the crypts, as Stark lords as well. All the Stark "royalty" go in there, title makes no matter.  When Ned and Robert go into he crypts, Ned speaks of Kings in the North. Then when Bran goes down into the crypts with Luwin and Osha in AGOT, Bran looks at the statue and says "they were the kings of Winter" and then Luwin says "They were kings in the north for thousands of years." Then Bran proceeds to name several Stark kings as Kings in the North, although he mentions the one who defeated the Marsh King, which was supposedly a King of Winter. They seem somewhat interchangeable, or else people aren't sure where the cutoff is. But then Bran continues naming Stark statues, and he gets to Torren, the King Who Knelt, and points out that the statues form after this point are just Lords of Wintefell. So they are all in there, and the delineation between KitN and KoW is not one of life or death, but simply time and custom. 

Now in terms of symbolism... that's another story. In terms of symbolism, KoW = KitN = Lord of Winterfell.  They are all the same ASOIAF archetype. Robb and Ned both show us King of Winter symbolism, as does Jon. I talked about that part 2 of my Green Zombies series, "King of Winter, Lord of Death." As @sweetsunray has catalogued, Ned / the KoW is a Hades figure, and underworld ruler. There's also a strong tie to the dead, winter phase of the green man / corn king cycle. The "King of Winter" is also the name of something known as the Wicker Man, a little man you make from dead garden leavings and keep through the winter, only to burn at Beltane. Martin is riffing on this heavily, comparing the King of Winter to a straw man, scarecrow, or wooden man many times - he's like a dead green man. And in order to bring the spring, he burns, as the wicker man KoW does. That i expect to take the form of resurrected Jon, the new KoW, who will probably be raised with fire magic. 

 

 

[LmL]

On 12/20/2016 at 1:52 PM, Scorpion92 said:

I am of the opinion that if the theories about Starks sharing blood with the Others are true, then judging by the description of Roose's eyes, then Bolton line might descend from the Others as well.

Now, this is pure speculation, but maybe the original founder of House Bolton was a bastard Stark who did not inherit the skinchanging abilities of his trueborn siblings and envied his position and tried to usurp Winterfell and the title King of Winter from trueborn Starks? 

That will tie up nicely with Roose Bolton taking over Winterfell as generations of Boltons probably wanted to do so (fulfilling the original mission of the very first Bolton) and the whole bastard angle with Ramsay (how he always wanted to be Bolton so much and the cruelty he gained from this desire - just like the original Bolton with Starks).

But that is just me.

I have always suspected something like this to be true. 

[Curled Finger]

On 12/20/2016 at 6:50 AM, nlspeed said:

This thread has some incredibly interesting posts. And they made me think; 'the lone wolf dies, the pack survives' - one Stark is sacrificed, so that his whole pack - the other Starks, and, as all the Northern families have about equal amounts of Stark blood, the whole North - may survive.

It would make sense, for Eddard to be raised with these values (honour) and truisms (such as the above), just as Brandon was raised - but Brandon would know the underlying meaning, too.

One thing that doesn't quite fit, in my opinion, is the Bolton family. The Red Kings, the flaying, the allusions to blood, vampirism... I feel that this is a major second part to what is discussed here?

I love a reader who remembers the creepy mysterious Boltons.   I was just rereading from the beginning, as this topic truly relieved me of so many inhibitions.    I love a fun discussion.   You touch upon a few things that I've wondered since I began to understand this story...such as I am able to understand this story at all.   I think there is something to the magical kings in the North and some transfer of a greater power of each family the Starks married into.   And we sure don't know a single thing about the danged Red Kings or their magic, do we?   

The Starks seemed to have no magic at all but conquered and acquired all the power of the North.  Assuming The Red Kings with their flaying and displaying, Roose's leechings and explanations of "bad blood" and/or Ramsay's enthusiasm for torture are indicative of whatever power the Red Kings possessed it's not a stretch to tie it to  some sort of vampirism.  We've already got skinchangers, necromancers and the telekinetic package of the COTF in the Marsh Kings, so why not vampirism?  I'll go 1 further with you, nlspeed...the Starks have all these powers.   

If the Starks were truly only human they would be clean slates for all this terrible magic they were killing and marrying.  It makes sense that the sum of all these powers would become exaggerated or exacerbated in the mingling of the magic.  The Starks would become psychic skin changing immortal kings with the ability to rise from the dead.   Perhaps in the defeat of the Others part of their part of the pact was to quash their magic.    Don't use it, don't hang out with dire wolves, just be regular people.  Perhaps the denial of magic during their lives caused all the magic to run free in their death therefore requiring binding?   These crazy magical spirits of dead Kings of Winter would be very powerful in theory.  The magic is suppressed over thousands of years and generations but it can't be bred out of the bloodline.   The power stays there latent until our current characters simply became the characters the DNA could not be contained in.   Or something, I'm sure you get the idea.   Red hair occurs every 3rd generation on my mother's side of the family.   I don't have it, but my great aunts and uncles do and my children have this same red hair.   It's a trip to look at us all together.    That red hair doesn't really change color it just pops up in all it's glory.  I think our current Starks have simply got that latent magic gene.   

You make a really interesting point about all the other northern families sharing in the Stark blood. But they don't seem to have any magical power.  That could be where the vampirism comes in.  Instead of requiring blood for sustenance the Starks or even the Red Kings before them required familial magic to survive.  Psychic vampires, if you will.   

For all it's worth I think those Kings of Winter could have been the Starks who still had to actively contain their power. 

[The Marquis de Leech]

The thing about being King in the North - it implies geographical relation to somewhere South. You don't think of yourself as the North unless you have contact and interaction with Southern neighbours. In that sense, being King in the North would logically be a more modern/cosmopolitan title than the King of Winter - which requires no knowledge of geographical connection.

[GloubieBoulga]

Following the idea of a blood link between Stark and Others, There could be a concrete clue in this fact : 

- it seems that Others have a "solid" form only when a Nightwatcher is near. The particularity of a Night Watcher is that he spend his life at the Wall; he has physical contact with it all the day, and the Wall was build with magic, very probably with blood, and maybe Brandon the Builder gave his blood for that, Stark blood. 

- Spending his life near the Wall must influence the blood of the night watchers (if we prefer a religious interpretation, we can also say that the oath change their blood and make their engagement impossible to break without paying it one day or another). When Benjen says that the NW are his brothers, maybe he is totaly true (without knowing it) symbolicaly and in a concrete way, because they gain a "Stark blood".  

So, when the cold mists arrives, it could "recognize the special blood", becoming stronger and take a specific form. As if the NW's blood were a "shadowbinder". 

Craster has NW's blood, if he is really the son of a NW, and his daughters have too and can see the blue eyes of the others (not only the creatures).

That means also that Others are some ancient stark shadow/ghost/spirit, but one who is looking for vengeance.