What if Robb was cunning, pragmatic and cruel?

[Marcus corvinus]

Ok, recently i finished the witcher 3. One of the best games of all time in my opinion. One of the main antagonists or perhaps i should say characters of the game is King Radovid the stern. In the 2nd game he was just 17, in the 3rd he was 20. Sort of like robb. Like robb he too was a tactical genius facing vastly superior odds. But that's where the similarities end.

Radovid is a political mastermind who happens to be extremely cruel, pragmatic, vindictive and ruled with an iron fist. Where on the other hand robb was politically inept, kind, idealistic, honorable and way too naive. Ultimately these shortcomings led to his fall. Being a king is far different from being a general. You have to be suspicious and be a superb manipulator and schemer. But Robb was none of that.

But if he had been like Radovid? What if he had been merciless, pathologically ambitious and pragmatic. He wouldn't marry jeyne, he wouldn't send theon home and he'd probably embark on a reign of terror in the west and the crownlands. Probably would not give much of a fuck about sansa either. Plus he'd also probably betray the freys, play stannis and keep a tight leash on his lords Roose and karstark. He wouldn't be loved, he'd be hated, feared but respected. A scary version of tywin.

I wonder how the story be in that scenario? I for one think it might've been more interesting. There would be good and evil on all sides. House stark wouldn't all be snow white and justifiable and catelyn and other starks would also be torn between their honor and duty. Yes you could say that ned's son would never be like this but you can never say....aerys was a great king for the first 10 years. Power can corrupt anyone and evil people regularly come out of good nice households

[devilish]

There’s a difference between being cruel and being pragmatic and cunning. Aerys/Joffrey were both cruel and stupid. Having said that, sometimes a person needs to bend plenty of rules to win
In my opinion Robb’s plan from day 1 should have been to decide what he wants. Does he want justice? Does he want to save as many Starks as possible or does he want to become King. If he’s cunning and pragmatic enough then he’ll probably notice that while the former too options are possible the latter will probably land him an early ticket to his grave. The North can’t be independent and aiming for that would be foolish. 
My plan would have been this
a-    I would send a proposal to Littlefinger. The crown may be stronger but I have something Joffrey will never offer him ie Cat Tully. He’ll marry Cat Tully and he will have the gratitude of both Riverlands and the North assuming he’ll leave KL with Sansa and Arya NOW and convince Lysa to join the fray.

b-    Id sent a letter to Jorah Mormont promising him a pardon and a Lordship if he manages to rebuild bridges between Danny and the Starks. Id remind him that he’s still a Northerner and that the Starks are still his Lord. Id send Danny a considerate sum of money and I would order Jorah to keep her safe and out of the way for the time being. 

c-    Bran is my brother but he’s no general. I’d leave Lord Karstark behind as regent. Since Im leaving quickly, Lord Karstark will be assigned to raise the remaining troops, defend Winterfell and take decisions while Im away. He’ll also take care of Theon whom I promise a Lordship, full support for his inheritance as long as he’s full committed to my cause

d-    Id start negotiations with Renly immediately. Id be pragmatic in saying that while Im not Lord Paramount myself, my dad would possibly be dead by the time we storm KL so every deal he’ll do with me, he’ll be doing it with the entire North. My demands are quite simple. I support his call and bend the knee as long as the following things occur. Willas would marry Sansa once she’s free, sealing an alliance between the North and the Reach.  Jon Snow will be legitimised and he’s free from the NW duty, the gift is returned back to the North and Bran will be compensated for what he had suffered by the Lannisters by being given CR.  Id also suggest Renly to help the Riverlands in tackling the invasion in the Riverlands as that would add another region to the fold and it would release the Northern army to join his already enormous army. Meanwhile Id also sends emissaries to the Reach to butter up Mace. 

e-     I’d march South to defend my uncle from a position of strength ie the support of both the Stormlands and the Reach. I personally negotiate with Lord Walder myself. Ill make it quite clear that I’m there to fulfil my duty towards his Lord Paramount to defend the Riverlands from an invasion of a hostile army and to obey King Renly’s order to march South. Im ready to offer him Rickon in marriage and my full support in having Freys marrying two Lord Paramount who are quite close to me (Theon and Edmure). However if Walder refuse then he will be sieged and possibly be caught between loads of fires (North, Vale, Riverlands, Reach and Stormlands ). That should be enough for Walder to relent.  

f-    By that time, Littlefinger would have taken Sansa and possibly Arya out of KL and would be on his way to my domain. Tywin would be alerted by the mobilizing of the Vale and Renly’s army and will pull out of the Riverlands and in safer lands. I would bend the knee to King Renly and Queen Margaery. Meanwhile Sansa will marry Willas, Id persuade Lysa to consent to the marriage between Arya and Robin and Littlefinger will marry Cat (hush hush and behind Lysa’s back), consolidating an alliance between the 5 houses (Arryn, Tully, Stark, Tyrell, Baratheon)

g-    If Stannis kill Renly then Il be in a perfect position to seal a deal with the Tyrells. I ask Littlefinger to help in exchange of Harrenhal. I spill the beans with Mace regarding Danny and Id offer him the following deal. Mace will commit his army and fleet to my cause and support all promises done by Renly (Brandon inheriting CR). In exchange I will marry Margaery myself, Id support Garlan’s bid to inherit the Florent lands and Margaery to inherit the Lordship of the Stormlands from her former husband and I will convince Danny to marry Sir Loras in exchange of her sitting on the iron throne as queen. That’s a far better deal that Joffrey can ever offer.  

h-    The Tyrell fleet bring Danny home. She agrees to marry Loras and give the Stormlands to Margaery, the Florent lands to Garlan and CR to Brandon in exchange of full support from the Tyrells, the Arryns, the Tullys and the Starks. At that point the Martells will possibly join the fray too

i-    Stannis will assault KL. Irrespective of the result, the winner will be left greatly weakened and easy prey for the Targ army. 
I would live the rest of his days happy in Winterfell, knowing that if shite hits fan, Brother Brandon, Lord Paramount of the Westerlands, Uncle Edmure, Brother in Law Robin and Willas and a grateful queen will be there to help. I would also use all my influence to have my future daughter marry Loras-Danny wife consolidating the alliance between the Starks and the crown even further. Meanwhile Id support Theon’s bid for the Lordship of the Iron Islands (who would be offered a prestigious marriage with a Manderly) and Ill push for a matchup between Brandon and Asha Greyjoy. 
   
 

[Jeeves]

I think the OP is putting too much of a positive spin on Robb's character.  Robb failed because he was too immature and too arrogant.  He swore an oath to Walder Frey and broke it after the Freys fought bravely for him.  He executes Karstark, a man whose family had fought for him.  He gives Catelyn a pass for releasing the war's most valuable hostage.  He punished one sinner and let the other one off the hook.  Robb is a weak character and terribly flawed. 

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

On 28-9-2016 at 0:57 PM, devilish said:

There’s a difference between being cruel and being pragmatic and cunning. Aerys/Joffrey were both cruel and stupid. Having said that, sometimes a person needs to bend plenty of rules to win
In my opinion Robb’s plan from day 1 should have been to decide what he wants. Does he want justice? Does he want to save as many Starks as possible or does he want to become King. If he’s cunning and pragmatic enough then he’ll probably notice that while the former too options are possible the latter will probably land him an early ticket to his grave. The North can’t be independent and aiming for that would be foolish. 
My plan would have been this
a-    I would send a proposal to Littlefinger. The crown may be stronger but I have something Joffrey will never offer him ie Cat Tully. He’ll marry Cat Tully and he will have the gratitude of both Riverlands and the North assuming he’ll leave KL with Sansa and Arya NOW and convince Lysa to join the fray.

b-    Id sent a letter to Jorah Mormont promising him a pardon and a Lordship if he manages to rebuild bridges between Danny and the Starks. Id remind him that he’s still a Northerner and that the Starks are still his Lord. Id send Danny a considerate sum of money and I would order Jorah to keep her safe and out of the way for the time being. 

c-    Bran is my brother but he’s no general. I’d leave Lord Karstark behind as regent. Since Im leaving quickly, Lord Karstark will be assigned to raise the remaining troops, defend Winterfell and take decisions while Im away. He’ll also take care of Theon whom I promise a Lordship, full support for his inheritance as long as he’s full committed to my cause

d-    Id start negotiations with Renly immediately. Id be pragmatic in saying that while Im not Lord Paramount myself, my dad would possibly be dead by the time we storm KL so every deal he’ll do with me, he’ll be doing it with the entire North. My demands are quite simple. I support his call and bend the knee as long as the following things occur. Willas would marry Sansa once she’s free, sealing an alliance between the North and the Reach.  Jon Snow will be legitimised and he’s free from the NW duty, the gift is returned back to the North and Bran will be compensated for what he had suffered by the Lannisters by being given CR.  Id also suggest Renly to help the Riverlands in tackling the invasion in the Riverlands as that would add another region to the fold and it would release the Northern army to join his already enormous army. Meanwhile Id also sends emissaries to the Reach to butter up Mace. 

e-     I’d march South to defend my uncle from a position of strength ie the support of both the Stormlands and the Reach. I personally negotiate with Lord Walder myself. Ill make it quite clear that I’m there to fulfil my duty towards his Lord Paramount to defend the Riverlands from an invasion of a hostile army and to obey King Renly’s order to march South. Im ready to offer him Rickon in marriage and my full support in having Freys marrying two Lord Paramount who are quite close to me (Theon and Edmure). However if Walder refuse then he will be sieged and possibly be caught between loads of fires (North, Vale, Riverlands, Reach and Stormlands ). That should be enough for Walder to relent.  

f-    By that time, Littlefinger would have taken Sansa and possibly Arya out of KL and would be on his way to my domain. Tywin would be alerted by the mobilizing of the Vale and Renly’s army and will pull out of the Riverlands and in safer lands. I would bend the knee to King Renly and Queen Margaery. Meanwhile Sansa will marry Willas, Id persuade Lysa to consent to the marriage between Arya and Robin and Littlefinger will marry Cat (hush hush and behind Lysa’s back), consolidating an alliance between the 5 houses (Arryn, Tully, Stark, Tyrell, Baratheon)

g-    If Stannis kill Renly then Il be in a perfect position to seal a deal with the Tyrells. I ask Littlefinger to help in exchange of Harrenhal. I spill the beans with Mace regarding Danny and Id offer him the following deal. Mace will commit his army and fleet to my cause and support all promises done by Renly (Brandon inheriting CR). In exchange I will marry Margaery myself, Id support Garlan’s bid to inherit the Florent lands and Margaery to inherit the Lordship of the Stormlands from her former husband and I will convince Danny to marry Sir Loras in exchange of her sitting on the iron throne as queen. That’s a far better deal that Joffrey can ever offer.  

h-    The Tyrell fleet bring Danny home. She agrees to marry Loras and give the Stormlands to Margaery, the Florent lands to Garlan and CR to Brandon in exchange of full support from the Tyrells, the Arryns, the Tullys and the Starks. At that point the Martells will possibly join the fray too

i-    Stannis will assault KL. Irrespective of the result, the winner will be left greatly weakened and easy prey for the Targ army. 
I would live the rest of his days happy in Winterfell, knowing that if shite hits fan, Brother Brandon, Lord Paramount of the Westerlands, Uncle Edmure, Brother in Law Robin and Willas and a grateful queen will be there to help. I would also use all my influence to have my future daughter marry Loras-Danny wife consolidating the alliance between the Starks and the crown even further. Meanwhile Id support Theon’s bid for the Lordship of the Iron Islands (who would be offered a prestigious marriage with a Manderly) and Ill push for a matchup between Brandon and Asha Greyjoy. 
   
 

Wow, that's a lot of things working out perfectly. Your fanfic is pretty reliant on people acting in contrast with their actual character though. Renly would be wayyy too egocentric to gift you Casterly Rock and the Westerlands while he does all the work. Littlefinger will surely not abandon his scheming just to be with Cat, he's beyond that now. And even if he isn't, you would have to know in advance how powerful LF really is, which no one apparently does (apart from Varys). Walder Frey would relent. Sure... Then Stannis somehow still kills Renly (and not you, while you seem to be the real power behind this alliance). Then Dany will gift you ANOTHER region, making your dynasty Lord over 3 regions, while closely related to 3 others. Meaning YOU would really rule the Seven Kingdoms, not her. I doubt Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, the Unburnt, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men and Lord Protector of the Seven Kingdoms, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons would be ok with that. Stannis will STILL assault King's Landing, despite having no hope of succeeding against your mighty alliance. Sure, Stannis is stubborn, but he's not stupid. In the end, everyone just agrees that Theon should replace Balon (who is still alive in this fantasy I suppose) and doesn't see this as even more of a power grab for the de facto king, Robb Stark. 

Also, Jon is released from his Night's Watch vows... why?? Sure, you can afford to lose your support in the North with all the other support you are getting (they would HAVE to follow you if you are apparently this powerful, though the others might negate their deals with you if they sense ANY weakness), but why would you want this? What does Jon offer?

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

On 28-9-2016 at 10:47 AM, Marcus corvinus said:

Ok, recently i finished the witcher 3. One of the best games of all time in my opinion. One of the main antagonists or perhaps i should say characters of the game is King Radovid the stern. In the 2nd game he was just 17, in the 3rd he was 20. Sort of like robb. Like robb he too was a tactical genius facing vastly superior odds. But that's where the similarities end.

Radovid is a political mastermind who happens to be extremely cruel, pragmatic, vindictive and ruled with an iron fist. Where on the other hand robb was politically inept, kind, idealistic, honorable and way too naive. Ultimately these shortcomings led to his fall. Being a king is far different from being a general. You have to be suspicious and be a superb manipulator and schemer. But Robb was none of that.

But if he had been like Radovid? What if he had been merciless, pathologically ambitious and pragmatic. He wouldn't marry jeyne, he wouldn't send theon home and he'd probably embark on a reign of terror in the west and the crownlands. Probably would not give much of a fuck about sansa either. Plus he'd also probably betray the freys, play stannis and keep a tight leash on his lords Roose and karstark. He wouldn't be loved, he'd be hated, feared but respected. A scary version of tywin.

I wonder how the story be in that scenario? I for one think it might've been more interesting. There would be good and evil on all sides. House stark wouldn't all be snow white and justifiable and catelyn and other starks would also be torn between their honor and duty. Yes you could say that ned's son would never be like this but you can never say....aerys was a great king for the first 10 years. Power can corrupt anyone and evil people regularly come out of good nice households

Witcher 3 is awesome.

I think not much would change at first. Robb was smarter than people give him credit for, and in the beginning he made all the right choices (when he had one). So at first, Robb would still do what he did. Only when Ned died, Robb would retaliate and kill all Lannister prisoners, including Jaime. Further, much would go thesame again, only Robb's campaign through the Westerlands would be as bad (though we don't know how bad it was already) as the Lannister campaign in the Riverlands. Robb would not marry Jeyne. Robb would not execute Lord Karstark, since he would have killed Jaime and his squires himself already there would be no need. Robb might still be betrayed by the Freys and the Boltons. I'm not sure if the Freys solely betrayed Robb over his marriage.

Theon would be dead, in retaliation to Balon's attack on the North, and Winterfell would not have been taken. This would cause Ramsay to remain locked in the dungeon until Robb's return (when he would be put to death). I don't know what the Lannisters would have done to Sansa, but she might be dead as well. Once Robb takes King's Landing (if he ever does), he sacks the city and slaughters every blonde-haired person he can find (you wanted him cruel). Then he takes the Iron Throne for himself.

Bran would not travel North, therefore he will not save the world and the Others will invade and kill everyone.  

[devilish]

9 hours ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Wow, that's a lot of things working out perfectly. Your fanfic is pretty reliant on people acting in contrast with their actual character though. Renly would be wayyy too egocentric to gift you Casterly Rock and the Westerlands while he does all the work. Littlefinger will surely not abandon his scheming just to be with Cat, he's beyond that now. And even if he isn't, you would have to know in advance how powerful LF really is, which no one apparently does (apart from Varys). Walder Frey would relent. Sure... Then Stannis somehow still kills Renly (and not you, while you seem to be the real power behind this alliance). Then Dany will gift you ANOTHER region, making your dynasty Lord over 3 regions, while closely related to 3 others. Meaning YOU would really rule the Seven Kingdoms, not her. I doubt Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, the Unburnt, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men and Lord Protector of the Seven Kingdoms, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons would be ok with that. Stannis will STILL assault King's Landing, despite having no hope of succeeding against your mighty alliance. Sure, Stannis is stubborn, but he's not stupid. In the end, everyone just agrees that Theon should replace Balon (who is still alive in this fantasy I suppose) and doesn't see this as even more of a power grab for the de facto king, Robb Stark. 

Also, Jon is released from his Night's Watch vows... why?? Sure, you can afford to lose your support in the North with all the other support you are getting (they would HAVE to follow you if you are apparently this powerful, though the others might negate their deals with you if they sense ANY weakness), but why would you want this? What does Jon offer?

Well the title suggests that people will have to pragmatic or even cruel. Robb was neither. A few comments on what you said

-          Renly would probably object with Bran-CR deal. On the other hand he wouldn’t want to spend most of his time freezing his arse off trying in an invasion of the North either. Robb would bring on table the loyalty of two regions, a 30k army and great ties with the Vale (another region which is quite difficult to crack through invasion). After what they done (they killed the king, they cuckolded him, they killed a Lord Paramount (probably two ie Lord Arryn), a Lord Paramount  daughter(Arya is thought to be dead) and a Lord Paramount sister (Elia) the Lannisters need to be kicked out of their perch irrespective whether Bran takes CR or not. Considering that Renly is the most flexible of all 5 kings, than I am confident that a deal can be made. Bran will take CR, however the role of Lord Paramount would probably end up to somebody else, possibly Garlan who would also inherit Brightwater keep.

-          Littlefinger is a member of the Small Council and the man who manages the money of the crown. He’s also mum’s best friend. If Robb wants someone whose capable of acting as a double agent for him and is able to infiltrate his sisters out of KL, then Littlefinger is the first man to go to. Also at the beginning of the war, the crown is in one hell of a position. Out of 8 regions, 4 rose against them, 2 remain neutral, 1 went rogue and only the Westerlands answered to their call. If Robb and Renly managed to seal a deal than the war would be as good as over. Now Littlefinger has a decision to make. He can either stick to the crown and risk losing his head. Else he can get a Lordship, the forgiveness of the North and the gratitude from the new King and he can marry the woman he loves who is also second in line for Riverrun.  It’s a tough decision indeed.

 

-          Walder is a lot of things but a brave man, he is not. He won’t go against the entire force of the North especially if he knows that the reach will soon be breathing at his neck. Robb’s deal is not perfect but it is not bad either.

 

-          Assuming that Stannis still kills Renly with magic (something that can’t be forecasted or avoided even by the most pragmatic of people) then Robb would be in the best position to seal new deals with the Tyrells. Don’t forget that in this timeline, Robb is not some rebel who defied Renly’s right to the throne but an ally. The prospect for both houses isn’t great. Both Tyrells and Starks had rebelled to the crown and will suffer consequences if they don’t get their act together. Both are pissed off of losing their king and together they master an army which is way bigger to what Stannis or Joffrey hold. Mace’s plan is quite simple really. He wants a Tyrell to sit on the iron throne, their house to become stronger and the legitimacy needed to do so. Danny is a true Targeryan not some usurper’s so called son with loads of questions regarding his legitimacy. She would be the perfect wife for Loras. Also a marriage between Robb and Margaery will consolidate the alliance between the Reach, the Riverlands, the North and hopefully the Vale.  Robb also has the best negotiator to seal that deal (Littlefinger) who will also be in the perfect spot to cut something extra for himself. There’s nothing Joffrey can offer to match that.

 

-           During the clash of kings, Danny is stranded somewhere near Qarth, with a small force of Dothraki rejects and with 3 dragons the size of a cat.She’s got no fleet to return home and no army to conquer Westeros and no money to buy such army.  I find it pretty difficult to believe that she would reject the chance of marrying the son of one of the richest and most powerful Lords in the Reach who was once loyal to her father and who is also backed by 2 other regions. I mean between all three they probably have a combined army of around 80-120k soldiers. She would initially be concerned about trusting the Starks (she considers Eddard as Robert’s dog). However Jorah can work his magic on that.

 

-          I have two arguments regarding Robb being the de facto king. First of all the Targs has ruled despite being the weakest of the lot (the Crownlands is inferior to most of the other houses) ever since their dragons died. Secondly, even if Robb does manage to get his hands on the Westerlands (I think he will get his fingers on CR not the entire Westerlands), he will still has to bend the knee to Danny and Loras. Vows are taken very seriously in GOT and you don’t break them for the fun of it. Doing so, would mean risking having most of your banner men and allies against you. No one loves fighting. It’s bad for the business. Also don’t forget that Margaery would be as much of a Stark as she’s a Tyrell. Do you think that she will march her troops against her father and her brother because her husband woke up at the wrong side of the bed? I doubt it. Rather than Robb being the defacto king, I think it would be more the case of the winners agreeing the terms of how to share the spoils. It’s a bit like a GOT version of the Yalta agreement.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

46 minutes ago, devilish said:

Renly would probably object with Bran-CR deal. On the other hand he wouldn’t want to spend most of his time freezing his arse off trying in an invasion of the North either. Robb would bring on table the loyalty of two regions, a 30k army and great ties with the Vale (another region which is quite difficult to crack through invasion). After what they done (they killed the king, they cuckolded him, they killed a Lord Paramount (probably two ie Lord Arryn), a Lord Paramount  daughter(Arya is thought to be dead) and a Lord Paramount sister (Elia) the Lannisters need to be kicked out of their perch irrespective whether Bran takes CR or not. Considering that Renly is the most flexible of all 5 kings, than I am confident that a deal can be made. Bran will take CR, however the role of Lord Paramount would probably end up to somebody else, possibly Garlan who would also inherit Brightwater keep.

 

I'd say Renly was pretty rigid in his deal to Robb. He would only allow Robb to CALL himself king, but was not about to grant him any power beyond that of a Lord Paramount. Renly already had the manpower to beat the Lannisters, he didn't need more troops. And sure, he wouldn't want to freeze his ass off invading the North, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't do it if it were necessary... The Vale remained neutral, so it doesn't have to be invaded. In the end, I'm sure Renly and Robb could have made a peace deal... but on Renly's terms, not Robb's.

56 minutes ago, devilish said:

Littlefinger is a member of the Small Council and the man who manages the money of the crown. He’s also mum’s best friend. If Robb wants someone whose capable of acting as a double agent for him and is able to infiltrate his sisters out of KL, then Littlefinger is the first man to go to. Also at the beginning of the war, the crown is in one hell of a position. Out of 8 regions, 4 rose against them, 2 remain neutral, 1 went rogue and only the Westerlands answered to their call. If Robb and Renly managed to seal a deal than the war would be as good as over. Now Littlefinger has a decision to make. He can either stick to the crown and risk losing his head. Else he can get a Lordship, the forgiveness of the North and the gratitude from the new King and he can marry the woman he loves who is also second in line for Riverrun.  It’s a tough decision indeed.

Yes, it seems like chaos, and as Littlefinger would say: "Chaos is a laddah!" I am pretty sure characters are not aware of Littlefinger's ambition. Robb and Cat in the books never thought of offering Littlefinger anything, and I think in order to buy someone's loyalty, you'd have to know it can be bought. I don't even think Cat told Robb ANYTHING about Littlefinger, and if that's the case, Robb simply wouldn;t know to offer Littlefinger anything.

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Walder is a lot of things but a brave man, he is not. He won’t go against the entire force of the North especially if he knows that the reach will soon be breathing at his neck. Robb’s deal is not perfect but it is not bad either.

Walder could ask Robb for anything because Robb was trying to get away from Tywin. Walder had all the time in the world, Robb didn't. Robb certainly wouldn't have been able to make a deal with Renly before crossing the Twins, since Robb didn't hear of Renly declaring himself king until after he relieved Riverrun. Therefore, it would just be the might of the North trying to run from the might of the West.

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Assuming that Stannis still kills Renly with magic (something that can’t be forecasted or avoided even by the most pragmatic of people) then Robb would be in the best position to seal new deals with the Tyrells. Don’t forget that in this timeline, Robb is not some rebel who defied Renly’s right to the throne but an ally. The prospect for both houses isn’t great. Both Tyrells and Starks had rebelled to the crown and will suffer consequences if they don’t get their act together. Both are pissed off of losing their king and together they master an army which is way bigger to what Stannis or Joffrey hold. Mace’s plan is quite simple really. He wants a Tyrell to sit on the iron throne, their house to become stronger and the legitimacy needed to do so. Danny is a true Targeryan not some usurper’s so called son with loads of questions regarding his legitimacy. She would be the perfect wife for Loras. Also a marriage between Robb and Margaery will consolidate the alliance between the Reach, the Riverlands, the North and hopefully the Vale.  Robb also has the best negotiator to seal that deal (Littlefinger) who will also be in the perfect spot to cut something extra for himself. There’s nothing Joffrey can offer to match that.

I agree that, in your scenario, the Tyrells and Starks make natural allies, but Littlefinger would likely try to play the Tyrells and the Starks against each other. IF he even was with Robb, he certainly wouldn't do all in his power to make Robb the most powerful lord; he would do all in his power to make HIMSELF the most powerful lord. If Littlefinger is so amazing as you say, why wouldn't HE request Casterly Rock for all that he does for Robb and the Tyrells? 

And concerning Dany, all people ever hear of her in Westeros are rumours. Robb wouldn't know where she is, who's with her, maybe he wouldn't even know she EXISTS.

1 hour ago, devilish said:

During the clash of kings, Danny is stranded somewhere near Qarth, with a small force of Dothraki rejects and with 3 dragons the size of a cat.She’s got no fleet to return home and no army to conquer Westeros and no money to buy such army.  I find it pretty difficult to believe that she would reject the chance of marrying the son of one of the richest and most powerful Lords in the Reach who was once loyal to her father and who is also backed by 2 other regions. I mean between all three they probably have a combined army of around 80-120k soldiers. She would initially be concerned about trusting the Starks (she considers Eddard as Robert’s dog). However Jorah can work his magic on that.

Because Jorah sooo loves the Starks...

1 hour ago, devilish said:

I have two arguments regarding Robb being the de facto king. First of all the Targs has ruled despite being the weakest of the lot (the Crownlands is inferior to most of the other houses) ever since their dragons died. Secondly, even if Robb does manage to get his hands on the Westerlands (I think he will get his fingers on CR not the entire Westerlands), he will still has to bend the knee to Danny and Loras. Vows are taken very seriously in GOT and you don’t break them for the fun of it. Doing so, would mean risking having most of your banner men and allies against you. No one loves fighting. It’s bad for the business. Also don’t forget that Margaery would be as much of a Stark as she’s a Tyrell. Do you think that she will march her troops against her father and her brother because her husband woke up at the wrong side of the bed? I doubt it. Rather than Robb being the defacto king, I think it would be more the case of the winners agreeing the terms of how to share the spoils. It’s a bit like a GOT version of the Yalta agreement.

Because that totally didn't spark 50 years of tension...

I'm not saying that Margaery becomes a Stark, but I believe the intended purpose of giving her the Stormlands is that one day her children (with Robb I presume) will rule the Stormlands, and they will most definitely be Starks. Robb would have, as you say, 3 of the 9 regions under his control at the start of the war (it really was just 2, but okay). Granting the Stormlands and getting his brother on the throne of the Iron Islands would bump that up to 5, which is over half. On the other hand, you add the might of the Westerlands to that of the Reach, making the already most powerful house in Westeros even more powerful! The Westerlands and the Reach are likely the 2 most powerful regions in the Seven Kingdoms and you grant those to thesame house?!

Besides, during their rule, the Targs had a loyalty of their subjects they don't have anymore. During the dragonage, they became godlike, and despite losing their dragons the image stuck. Even during Robert's Rebellion, with Aerys on the throne mind you, half the Stormlands, half the Vale and half the Riverlands declared for the Targs. Now, knowing a 'lowly' Baratheon without the divine right to rule can keep the Seven Kingdoms together, what use is there to follow a Targ again? Face it, Dany would be a puppet, not a ruler.

To close off, I might be a bit harsh on Robb, but you are wayyy too lenient towards him. You see him as a sort of Napoleon, conquering all of Europe, meanwhile missing the point that every other nation hated him and banded together to destroy him.