Grammar and Terminology Question

[Mlle. Zabzie]

I am in the process of writing my yearly exercise in narcissistic self-promotion, otherwise known as my "self-review."  I had my husband read the draft.  He had one specific comment that I would like the Board's take on.  At one point, I make the Drumpfian point that my very existence is cause for celebration (and hopefully compensation), noting that I am a home-grown woman equity partner in a transactional practice area, and as such, am called upon to do a fair bit of mentoring. He mildly suggested that I was wrong to use "woman" as an adjective in this context, and should use "female" instead.  While he is maybe technically correct, the use of "female" in this sort of context makes me think of, I don't know, livestock, or a socket, or something that I don't really want to be compared to.  At the end of the day, I will probably revise the sentence in question to read something like "As a woman who is a home-grown equity partner in a transactional practice area,.....".  However, I'm curious whether you all object to either the use of the word "woman" or "man" in adjectival form, even if not technically correct and/or whether anyone else has a similar reaction to using "male" or "female" to describe oneself.  [Not to be confused with a discussion of gender identity - let's all assume we can all claim what we want for purposes of the memo]. 

[sologdin]

woman functions as an appositive noun in your construction and is accordingly grammatical.

you might still however consider the rhetorical effects and the ideological work that it's performing.

[Chaldanya]

If you want to use female, I would remove 'who is a'. That would make more grammatical sense.

However, take a large pinch of salt with what I just said because the word female sets my teeth on edge at the best of times.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

6 minutes ago, Chaldanya said:

If you want to use female, I would remove 'who is a'. That would make more grammatical sense.

However, take a large pinch of salt with what I just said because the word female sets my teeth on edge at the best of times.

Female drives me crazy.  I refuse to use it.  There is apparently a very senior litigator on the review committee who insists on its use (per my husband, who works a fair bit with him).  However, I am being reviewed by someone else (also a woman), and I refuse to kowtow to a word that makes me feel like a commodity in any event.

[all swedes are racist]

Yeah, to me, 'female' as a noun, in reference to a human being, is pretty much the grossest. 

Personally, I think the "as a woman[...]" sounds and works best.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I think it should be "female" if you phrase it like that. Are you not using it as an adjective to describe "equity partner"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think "woman" is ever used as an adjective.

If you have such an aversion to "female", I would just phrase it differently.

[kairparavel]

"As a lady, and a scholar.."

 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

7 minutes ago, kairparavel said:

"As a lady, and a scholar.."

 

Well obviously.  But I'd used that so many times already, I was trying to mix it up

[sologdin]

refusal to use female?

 

 

 

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[Theda Baratheon]

I'm co-leading/teaching School workshops at the moment and I actually told off one of the people I work with, an older man, who is lovely but seems a bit dated sometimes, when he made a comment about ''females'' also being engineers, I told him I preferred women. He said ''Well, I suppose they are. but I say females'' it just sounds...icky...to me. 

[Theda Baratheon]

Well, I say told off, I actually smiled very politely and said in a very diplomatic, friendly tone ''haha, I prefer to say women!'' so he took it as a joke and just kind of ignored my point. He also keep pronouncing my name wrong or forgetting my name LMAO. He's a funny one. anyway, I prefer woman to female, it just needs a little bit of changing around in a sentence that's all. 

2 hours ago, Chaldanya said:

If you want to use female, I would remove 'who is a'. That would make more grammatical sense.

However, take a large pinch of salt with what I just said because the word female sets my teeth on edge at the best of times.

This is what I was thinking too. 

[Altherion]

4 hours ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Female drives me crazy.  I refuse to use it.  There is apparently a very senior litigator on the review committee who insists on its use (per my husband, who works a fair bit with him).  However, I am being reviewed by someone else (also a woman), and I refuse to kowtow to a word that makes me feel like a commodity in any event.

We had a big debate about this in the literature forum at some point and I went looking through some books for how this word is handled. It used to be that "female" was used as both an adjective and a noun for human beings (e.g. "an elegant female"). However, usage of it as a noun went out of style -- it's pretty rare in modern works -- and it is now widely used only as an adjective. I have not seen "woman" used as an adjective in formal writing so I would tend to agree with your husband. That said, if you know your audience and they feel the same way as you do, obviously act accordingly.

It's kind of interesting that the gendered counterpart words have diverged in usage. That is, you can say " woman equity partner" and "woman lawyer" instead of "female equity partner" and "female lawyer" and while it is not formal, most people understand exactly what you mean -- but if you say "man equity partner" or "man lawyer", it sounds absurd.

[Kalbear]

I"m guessing 'matriarchal breeding unit' isn't gonna fly here

[Theda Baratheon]

35 minutes ago, Altherion said:

We had a big debate about this in the literature forum at some point and I went looking through some books for how this word is handled. It used to be that "female" was used as both an adjective and a noun for human beings (e.g. "an elegant female"). However, usage of it as a noun went out of style -- it's pretty rare in modern works -- and it is now widely used only as an adjective. I have not seen "woman" used as an adjective in formal writing so I would tend to agree with your husband. That said, if you know your audience and they feel the same way as you do, obviously act accordingly.

It's kind of interesting that the gendered counterpart words have diverged in usage. That is, you can say " woman equity partner" and "woman lawyer" instead of "female equity partner" and "female lawyer" and while it is not formal, most people understand exactly what you mean -- but if you say "man equity partner" or "man lawyer", it sounds absurd.

that cracked me up to be honest, it really does sound stupid. 

[Mlle. Zabzie]

5 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

that cracked me up to be honest, it really does sound stupid. 

 The fact that I have to specify at all suggests that what I'm doing is out of the ordinary.  And it's frustrating, because I do have to specify, because the numbers suck.  So the default for equity partner is man, the fact that I'm a woman does need to be mentioned because women in general are only 15-20% of equity partners in big firms.  Which sucks.  But anyhow.

[Larry of the Lawn]

What about "I am a woman who is a home grown equity partner in a transactional area" if you need to change it?

 

I think it's okay as is, and also dislike hearing female or male as nouns for humans, and even as adjectives unless it's in a very clinical sense 

[Theda Baratheon]

3 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

 The fact that I have to specify at all suggests that what I'm doing is out of the ordinary.  And it's frustrating, because I do have to specify, because the numbers suck.  So the default for equity partner is man, the fact that I'm a woman does need to be mentioned because women in general are only 15-20% of equity partners in big firms.  Which sucks.  But anyhow.

noo, i didn't mean what you were writing. i'm honestly just so lame i find the term ''man lawyer'' hilarious, i understand why you have to write this and totally agree that female sounds horrible. 

[Xray the Enforcer]

I am going to disagree that "woman" is the correct term here. Where it sits in the sentence it is modifying the word "partner" and thus you should use the adjective "female." If you wish, send me the section where the offending sentence resides via PM here or on FB and I'll take a stab at a rewrite that will make everything grammatically correct without the dreaded use of "female."

[Xray the Enforcer]

And, yes, people using the term "female" as a noun in this day and age is really fucking irritating.

[Inigima]

I agree with Xray. "I am a female," where "female" is a noun, is gross and does indeed put me in mind of livestock. But as an adjective it's appropriate, and I believe "woman" is not. Again agreeing with Xray, if you're just not comfortable with it, in my opinion (re)writing around the problem is the way to go rather than shoehorning your preferred word into the existing construction.