An Old Nan comment jumps out at me. Thoughts on Brans arc. And a cracking idea on Bran from another poster!

[Macgregor of the North]

I've been doing a lot of reading and laying down notes on Bran again. His TWOW storyline is the one I'm looking forward to the most at the moment and my thoughts always drift back to Bran, his upcoming involvement in the story, and just how deep that involvement will go. 

I came across an Old Nan comment that took on new meaning to me. It's brilliant how passages you have read loads of times suddenly hit you from a different angle after certain amounts of time. 

This passage, to me personally, seems like a possible piece of guidance, or instruction for Bran.
On the surface she is simply just telling him that it is nice to tell old stories over and over again, as Old ladies like to do. And we know Old Nan is a cracking story teller. 

On the other hand though. It seems to me Old Nan is giving Bran some deeper guidance here that relates to what he will become, and what he is going to be capable of.

Here's the quote.

ASOS BRAN II:

"Sometimes Old Nan would tell the same story she'd told before, but we never minded, if it was a good story. Old stories are like old friends, she used to say. You have to visit them from time to time."

Now fast forward and we have Bran in training to become a full on greenseer, with the power to gaze into the past through the Weirwood trees.

"And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

I think we will see Bran literally visit these old stories he has heard. From Nan, and of course from Meera concerning the Knight of the laughing tree.

As we have seen when Bran slipped the tree he was taken straight back to Winterfell to see his father, as that is what his heart yearned for and what he desired to see.

"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw."

Now by this logic, I think during Brans greenseer training and with the great amounts of time he will have on his hands, he will be able to slip the trees and reach through to a certain time in front of a certain tree if his heart desires it. I mean why not? It happened with the Winterfell heart tree visions. 

In this fashion I believe Bran will visit the old stories just like Nan says. Where there is a Weirwood tree, that is what we will read about first. Where there is no Weirwood and Brans powers have developed to the point he will see beyond the trees, this is where we will possibly read about more old stories.

I can't leave this thread without talking a bit about time travel possibilities in ASOIAF. I have had countless conversations on the topic that have ranged from 'understanding breakthroughs'(for me) to heated debates. In the end it's all in the quest for the truth in what exactly Bran will be capable of. 

Myself, I do believe that GRRM is indeed inserting a time travel trope into this story. I think the whole story of him, while he was in the middle of writing a Science fiction story but the opening Bran chapter just came to him involving the finding of the pups in the snow etc., It may come to light that his sci fi head was on at that moment and in regards to Brans story we are gonna read some kind of time travel stuff in his arc. 

Nothing too crazy. Bran can NOT change history. This will not happen, before I get the usual "Bran being able to change the story will make it shit" comments, I'll make it clear this is not what I'm stating. 

What I do think we will possibly read though, is instances of what is called a Stable timeloop. 

A passage I read somewhere helped me understand it better when applied to people's ideas of Bran going back in time to 'change history'.

"You go back in time to set right what once went wrong, only to discover that the "changes" you're making to the past were what "already" happened anyway. In other words, there was no "first time around" - the past only happened once, there were no different "versions" of it, and the "changes" you made to the past ultimately created the very past you read about in the history books before leaving on the trip."

To me this is as clear as can be. Bran will never be able to change the past, everything has happened and he is existing in that cave with the history already having happened exactly the way it did. 

What may begin happening in the story though, and I don't think it will be in massive amounts, is that Bran may indeed reach through to certain times and we may find that he could subtly influence someone or something, but it wouldn't be Bran changing the past, Bran would have always done that at that 'time' and it would have always caused that action, whatever it was, not changing a thing.

In a moment I'll look at Bran slipping the trees to see his father at Winterfell on two occasions so far. Bear in mind, Weirwood trees are the very special constant here.

Some note on Weirwood trees.

We know that time for a Weirwood tree is different than time for man.

"Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different."

"And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood,"

"A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one."

If the past, present and future are one for the tree, then anything said from what we may class as the future, is not classed as the future for the tree, it is all one time.

So if we think of Bran and his ability that is becoming apparent, such as the ability to send communications through Weirwood tree's that manifest on the 'other side' as understandable noises/whispers/voices in 'real time', as seen with Theon. 

Then if we remember that time is not the same for the trees as it is for humans, and that past, present and future are one, then we can look at the instances of Brans attempted communication with his father on two different occasions at Winterfell as not Bran sending a noise/whisper from the future to the past to change Neds actions. 

But Brans whispers always have manifested as noises on the 'other side' for Ned to hear and turn to ask who is there(on the 1st occasion) and frown for a long time at the tree(on the 2nd occasion).
This is not Bran changing the past, time is all one for the tree, them noises were always made at that time and it always happened that way. 

There is a theory, that builds on another popular heavily believed theory, not my idea, that credit goes to @Little Scribe of Naath. I will wait to see if she fancies entering the discussion before I mention it. My post has already went longer than I thought. But this idea is a brilliant way to show how a Stable time loop could work in ASOIAF. If it comes off this way in the books, It would just be pure magic.

I'll leave what I've written for now to see if I get any bites. Now Remember! 

Bloodraven:
"The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

 

 

[Land's End]

Whenever I read theories about Brans story arc and the imparted concept of time and history I'm reminded of Walter Benjamin's "On the Concept of History".

Quote

To articulate what is past does not mean to recognize “how it really was.” It means to take control of a memory, as it flashes in a moment of danger. For historical materialism it is a question of holding fast to a picture of the past, just as if it had unexpectedly thrust itself, in a moment of danger, on the historical subject. The danger threatens the stock of tradition as much as its recipients. For both it is one and the same: handing itself over as the tool of the ruling classes. In every epoch, the attempt must be made to deliver tradition anew from the conformism which is on the point of overwhelming it. For the Messiah arrives not merely as the Redeemer; he also arrives as the vanquisher of the Anti-Christ. The only writer of history with the gift of setting alight the sparks of hope in the past, is the one who is convinced of this: that not even the dead will be safe from the enemy, if he is victorious. And this enemy has not ceased to be victorious.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/benjamin/1940/history.htm

(just wanted to leave this here, nothing else to contribute)

[aryagonnakill#2]

Well I'll be honest and say I'd rather the books avoided the time travel stuff, but if we're going to talk about time travel we should probably at least consider that something along those lines took place at the Sorrows with Tyrion and co on the Shy Maid.  I mean we can't say exactly what happens, but it strikes me as some sort of time loop.  So if he put a time loop in there, it's certainly possible he will mess with time in other aspects of the story like Bran.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Rather than push my own ideas off the bat I just want to point out that there are a few other time related oddities...

First and formost is Dany's experience in the House of the Undying... For a few reasons:

1) only a few moments seem to pass outside while she's inside

2) she is granted visions of back (and forward?) in time (as well as things that never were... Worth remembering)

3) before she experiences this she is given, and drinks, the shade of the evening, which is made from the trees growing in the grove around the palace of dust (remember Bran is given the weirwood paste made from the seeds of the weirwoods that grow in a grove around/above Bloodraven's lair)

4) the unclear breaking of the 4th wall... It sure seems like both Bran (w/Ned and Theon?) and Dany (w/Rhaegar and Darry?) witness evidence of someone in the past breaking the 4th wall

Anyway just a little food for thought...

Also, a last thought, there are some seemingly super old characters who seem to be effected by "magic": Aemon, Old Nan, Ghost of High Heart, and Mel?

[Macgregor of the North]

3 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Well I'll be honest and say I'd rather the books avoided the time travel stuff, but if we're going to talk about time travel we should probably at least consider that something along those lines took place at the Sorrows with Tyrion and co on the Shy Maid.  I mean we can't say exactly what happens, but it strikes me as some sort of time loop.  So if he put a time loop in there, it's certainly possible he will mess with time in other aspects of the story like Bran.

I think we're possibly at a stage where it is kind of inevitable we will read some form of it in the books with Bran, it's already beginning I believe. I don't think it will be full on back and forth communications, but whatever Bran is capable of with Theon in 'present time', by the logic of the trees, where time means nothing, then Bran can project whispers through the trees to anytime really, going by that logic, even a time where Bran himself does not 'exist'.

But it won't be written as a past changing scenario. 

I keep meaning to reread that Tyrion passage at the sorrows, not read it for a wee bit, I'm currently on an ASOS reread. 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Reporting for duty, @Macgregor of the North  

[Macgregor of the North]

15 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Reporting for duty, @Macgregor of the North  

Hey Lil' Scribe. I was wondering if I could place your KotLt idea in this thread? I think it is a really cool way to show how this Stable time loop trope could possibly apply to a certain scenario in ASOIAF. Even if this thread doesn't catch fire, which it may not as everybody who's looked a thread of mine is likely sick of hearing me harp on about the topic Lol, I'd just like to use it as a cool example of how things could play out. 

'If' it does play out in TWOW, then this thread is here to go back to and look over.  If it doesn't ever happen, well hey, it's not the end of the world.

[Macgregor of the North]

15 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

3) before she experiences this she is given, and drinks, the shade of the evening, which is made from the trees growing in the grove around the palace of dust (remember Bran is given the weirwood paste made from the seeds of the weirwoods that grow in a grove around/above Bloodraven's lair)

I have always been interested by the shade of the evening and plan on doing deeper analysis on it one day. The thing to remember with Bran, is that even though he is given the weirwood paste(which may or may not contain Jojens blood also) to help awaken his gifts and wed him to the trees, its his blood that makes him a special greenseer, 'The One' if you like.

It reminds me of Neo in the Matrix sometimes, he is the one but still must take his 'red' pill to progress further on his journey.  

[Little Scribe of Naath]

So here goes my bit of crackpottery...  

Let's put the question of the identity of the KOTLT aside for a moment. What we can say, for certain, is that it was someone from the North, most likely a Stark.

It's not unusual for a Northener to have selected a weirwood tree as their sigil, of course. But most of the times a weirwood/heart tree is mentioned in the series, it is usually described as solemn, brooding, melancholy:

Quote

At the center of the grove an ancient weirwood brooded over a small pool where the waters were black and cold. "The heart tree," Ned called it. The weirwood's bark was white as bone, its leaves dark red, like a thousand bloodstained hands. A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful.

Quote

She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.

Quote

She found Robb beneath the green canopy of leaves, surrounded by tall redwoods and great old elms, kneeling before the heart tree, a slender weirwood with a face more sad than fierce. 

Quote

At Melisandre's urging, he had dragged the Seven from their sept at Dragonstone and burned them before the castle gates, and later he had burned the godswood at Storm's End as well, even the heart tree, a huge white weirwood with a solemn face.

 

So why did the KOTLT have a laughing tree on his/her shield? Seems an unusual state of being for a heart tree. Why not just the regular version?

Quote

No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

---

 

From ADWD, we know that Bran has the ability to slip into a heart tree and look into the past:

Quote

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't.

Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill up with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwood's? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?

Will it? 

GRRM cuts off the Bran POVs for the book here. But chronologically after this chapter in ADWD,  he starts dropping hints of Bran advancing in his training by being able to slip into the WF heart tree, thus being a witness to the goings on in Winterfell.

There are more instances than the one below, but this is the strongest one:

Quote

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller's sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. "I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …"

 

It is implied in this passage that the heart tree does indeed express the emotion of the person inhabiting it - Bran seems to be pitying Theon here, ("A leaf drifted down and brushed his brow") and that's most likely the reason for the tree taking on his face and appearing "red, wise and sad."  

A person who did not know how Bran looked would have simply described this tree as having a face with eyes "red, wise and sad."

Shortly before this occurs, we have a very curious scene, when the tree is witnessing fArya's wedding:

Quote

"I take this man," the bride said in a whisper.

All around them lights glimmered through the mists, a hundred candles pale as shrouded stars. Theon stepped back, and Ramsay and his bride joined hands and knelt before the heart tree, bowing their heads in token of submission. The weirwood's carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked.

Well, it looks like the tree knows that the event was a farce. If it was indeed Bran inside the heart tree at this moment, wouldn't this be an expected reaction from him, on seeing Jeyne Poole declare herself as Arya and marry Ramsay? 

 

So we know that:

1) Bran can slip into heart trees and look into the past.

2) The heart tree most likely expresses the emotion of the person inhabiting it.

 

Taking this together:

In TWOW, most of us are expecting that Bran will be able to give us a POV account of the events of RR and the Harrenhal tourney. Most likely he's going to do this by slipping into a weirwood. Usually most castles have only a single heart tree - it's unusual to have multiple ones. So it's quite likely that the very heart tree Bran might slip into was the same one all the Northeners at HH were praying to - including the KOTLT. 

Now if the KOTLT had gone to pray in front of a heart tree and expressed his/her idea to prank the three squires, is it possible that Bran on hearing this idea, finds it amusing, and consequently his "laughing" expression shows on the tree, giving the KOTLT the idea to paint their shield with the same?

 

If it is so, there is tremendous irony in this statement indeed: 

Quote

"Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran?" asked Jojen.

Why, Bran's the one who would have given the idea to the KOTLT for their sigil in the first place  

 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Little Scribe of Naath, you know I love this idea of yours, always have since you first mentioned it, I actually feel bad it's on my thread as people are probably that sick of my Bran 'time' threads(Lol) they may just pass it by, but I hope this bumps it up and people open it up and get some discussion going with you. It's that cool an idea I believe it merits it's own thread if im honest. 

I am on the forum very little when the weekend begins so I may not get back on til a bit later to chat about things but I'll bump it back up when I'm back on. 

Once again, brilliant idea, one of the coolest theories I've heard. You know how much I love all things Bran and his powers.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Yeah, actually it's an idea that I think is way too out there, and in general relates to discussions of Bran's arc and his powers. The actual idea by itself is complete speculation, that's why I didn't open a seperate thread for it, but put it in the flow of a discussion on Bran.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

On 9/29/2016 at 11:48 AM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Well I'll be honest and say I'd rather the books avoided the time travel stuff, but if we're going to talk about time travel we should probably at least consider that something along those lines took place at the Sorrows with Tyrion and co on the Shy Maid.  I mean we can't say exactly what happens, but it strikes me as some sort of time loop.  So if he put a time loop in there, it's certainly possible he will mess with time in other aspects of the story like Bran.

 

23 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

[snip]

I keep meaning to reread that Tyrion passage at the sorrows, not read it for a wee bit, I'm currently on an ASOS reread. 

Sorry, I don't want to veer off topic, but since I'm currently re-reading ADwD, I just revisited this chapter and wanted to give my opinion. To me is actually a wormhole rather than a time loop.

The Shy Maid and its crew are travelling downriver with the current and they pass under a bridge full of stonemen. Then the crew starts an argument and before they know it (and unadvertedly to them), they are upriver from the bridge again. They didn't go back in time, time flowed exactly the same for them as for the stonemen atop the bridge, who now have a second chance to jump aboard the poleboat and attack its occupants.

[Winter prince]

24 minutes ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

 

Sorry, I don't want to veer off topic, but since I'm currently re-reading ADwD, I just revisited this chapter and wanted to give my opinion. To me is actually a wormhole rather than a time loop.

The Shy Maid and its crew are travelling downriver with the current and they pass under a bridge full of stonemen. Then the crew starts an argument and before they know it (and unadvertedly to them), they are upriver from the bridge again. They didn't go back in time, time flowed exactly the same for them as for the stonemen atop the bridge, who now have a second chance to jump aboard the poleboat and attack its occupants.

This moment did get me pretty curious about the possibility of a wormhole.  I don't think it would make sense for the river to have an offshoot that would circle them back. 

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Yeah, actually it's an idea that I think is way too out there, and in general relates to discussions of Bran's arc and his powers. The actual idea by itself is complete speculation, that's why I didn't open a seperate thread for it, but put it in the flow of a discussion on Bran.

Well it's more than welcome here. It's the exact kind of trope I think is possible in Brans arc. 

If it does happen this way I believe it is a great example of how a time loop could  work in ASOIAF. Of course it's speculation, and requires another theory to come true(If Lyanna is the KotLt in this scenario) but it's completely in the realm of possibility.

I like how it ties in with this quote to. 

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm."

Shield arm as well as lance arm 

I always go back to what BR says.

Bloodraven:
"The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

Note the 'learn from it'. This is a neat, sly little insert here and one I think has some influence.

Bran learned of the story from Meera, looks through the Heart tree at Lyanna and laughs happily, it projects on to the tree for Lyanna to see, which she acts on, thus becoming the KotLt. Meera would not have told Bran this story if it had not happened this way, but Bran always caused it to happen this way. It is a Stable Timeloop.

This is not Bran changing the past. Bloodraven is correct. But he may 'learn from it'.

[JaimetheConciliator]

As opposed to time-travel, I prefer to see it as full-on omnipotence. As in, here is the origin story of a god. In this case, the old gods.

All of "them". I definitely think that's what Bran is. He becomes all of the old gods, bar none. It's not the Children, and it's not Bloodraven, it's only Bran and all Bran. And I definitely think that's why these gods in particular were written by the author without any identity. It would be too easy to tip off the readers if you gave them any. Hell, don't even bother capitalizing. Keep it lowercase in order to minimize expectations as much as possible.

[Macgregor of the North]

17 minutes ago, JaimetheConciliator said:

As opposed to time-travel, I prefer to see it as full-on omnipotence. As in, here is the origin story of a god. In this case, the old gods.

All of "them". I definitely think that's what Bran is. He becomes all of the old gods, bar none. It's not the Children, and it's not Bloodraven, it's only Bran and all Bran. And I definitely think that's why these gods in particular were written by the author without any identity. It would be too easy to tip off the readers if you gave them any. Hell, don't even bother capitalizing. Keep it lowercase in order to minimize expectations as much as possible.

Bran is most certainly part of the Old gods now for sure, but I'm always wary of the omnipotence side of things. I mean GRRM has stated we won't see all powerful gods who can come in and just change things.

Bran can't change anything, that's the thing. Anything he becomes involved in, like LSoN's idea for example, that happened all along, it always happened that way and Bran always caused it, he never changed anything, just like he can't go back and change any of his family's hurts.

Anything Bran reaches through 'time' to, and is involved with, I think we will find, he won't change a thing, but may indeed be the cause of it, as that's the way it's always been.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Little Scribe of Naath

Wee bit of my own thoughts to back up Brans face/facial expression being able to become visible in 'any time'.

With what we know on how Brans face has actually became visible to Theon in the 'present time' on the Winterfell Heart tree, and the idea that time means nothing to the Weirwood trees as past, present and future are all as one, then we can assume that this same projection of a face/facial expression is possible in any 'time', since for the tree 'time' is all one and something the tree simply does not understand.

"Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different."

"And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood,"

"To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one."

[Seams]

On 9/29/2016 at 0:18 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

... Old Nan is giving Bran some deeper guidance here that relates to what he will become, and what he is going to be capable of.

ASOS BRAN II:

"Sometimes Old Nan would tell the same story she'd told before, but we never minded, if it was a good story. Old stories are like old friends, she used to say. You have to visit them from time to time."

...

In this fashion I believe Bran will visit the old stories just like Nan says.

...

Myself, I do believe that GRRM is indeed inserting a time travel trope into this story.

...

What I do think we will possibly read though, is instances of what is called a Stable timeloop. 

...

If the past, present and future are one for the tree, then anything said from what we may class as the future, is not classed as the future for the tree, it is all one time.

...

But this idea is a brilliant way to show how a Stable time loop could work in ASOIAF. If it comes off this way in the books, It would just be pure magic.

 

On 9/29/2016 at 0:48 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Well I'll be honest and say I'd rather the books avoided the time travel stuff, but if we're going to talk about time travel we should probably at least consider that something along those lines took place at the Sorrows with Tyrion and co on the Shy Maid.  I mean we can't say exactly what happens, but it strikes me as some sort of time loop.  So if he put a time loop in there, it's certainly possible he will mess with time in other aspects of the story like Bran.

I've been pulling together some thoughts for a new entry in the Puns and Wordplay thread, but it matches up so well with some of this discussion that I'll try it out here, half-baked though it may be. Actually, this draws on ideas from a lot of other threads and may explain some seemingly unrelated details in the books.

Iron / Noir / Rhoyne

I think there is built-in wordplay using "Iron" and the french word "noir," meaning black. But french adjectives change with the gender of the noun they modify, so "noir" is the same word as "noire," and that got the overactive wordplay area of my brain thinking about the river Rhoyne, also known as mother Rhoyne. (Different letters, but a sort of anagram.)

What do Iron and noir and the Rhoyne have in common? I'm still not entirely sure, but I think the mysterious loop the Shy Maid experiences might be the key. I think there is an oxbow that has reconnected to the river to create a complete loop. The passengers on the boat didn't notice that they had looped around an oxbow because they were arguing, so they believe they have magically traveled back in time to undergo a second attack by the stonemen.

Oxbows can come and go. It was on the thread discussing inns that we discussed that the inn at the crossroads used to be right on the riverbank, but the river had shifted 70 years ago so the inn was no longer right on the water. @deja vu posted a great link to a time lapse image of the shifting course of a river.

These next bits are still largely at the stream-of-consciousness stage:

So the river Rhoyne is like iron and noir - black iron? - and it has a loop. What else has black iron loops? Maester's chains. The link for ravenry is iron and, according to the wiki, black iron on the chain represents warfare. Steel is an alloy that includes iron, and Valyrian steel on a maester's chain represents magic.

Ravens deliver messages - which are made up of words - but are also associated with the ability to fly through the door that separates life and death. (Crones can peer through that door, which is probably why Nan has such good insights through her stories.) Of course, ravens are also strongly associated with Bloodraven, Bran and Jon. (With a side order of Sam Tarly and some other characters.)

Warfare usually involves swords. There is a "words" and "swords" pun, and Tywin tells us that words and swords are both weapons that can win wars. So swords and ravens are linked in that sense. Also, I have been searching on belts because characters seem to carry both blades and messages in their belts. Wait a minute - belts? There's another loop. One that humans put around themselves. Sort of like Maester chains. But I'm not sure if this is just a digression.

There is another important black iron loop: the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter. Iron and bronze, "metals of winter," as Catelyn describes them.

And this all comes back to "noir," possibly, because of the endless loop of sunrise and sunset and the cycle of day and night.

On your good "Thoughts on Bran/Brandon the builder" thread, you figured out that the phrase "a thousand years ago" or even just "a thousand years" was a signal that the reader could expect a reference to an ageless archetype or legend come back to life. I think there may be another signal. This signal that takes the form of an iron ring. When Catelyn, Robb, Greywind and Theon arrive at Riverrun, there is an iron ring in the stone wall where their boat is pulled up. There are iron rings in the ceiling of Davos's dungeon cell at White Harbor. Tyrion wears iron shackles when Jorah Mormont takes him captive. Could the iron ring be a hint that we are about to read about an event that will repeat somewhere else in the story, or that echoes something from a legend (such as Nan's repeated stories)?

What would it mean for Bran's story that the time loop takes the form of an iron loop? Is he helping to forge a chain; one that stretches back to Bran the Builder?

What does this mean for the giant chain that Tyrion commissioned for the harbor at King's Landing?

And here's a time travel random thought that I can't tie into any of this unless words and swords have a special ability to transcend time: What if Tyrion IS Mushroom? We know what he's been carrying around in his shoe ever since he dined with Ilyrio . . . What if his writings could travel back in time, somehow?

ETA: I meant to mention, too, that Tyrion sleeps with his head on a coil of rope while on board the Shy Maid. So I may be overestimating the importance of iron loops. Maybe all loops are important.

One more: I also meant to mention tree rings. How trees keep track of time. So the Ironwood tree (and, perhaps, the Yronwood family) take on a new importance.

[aryagonnakill#2]

15 hours ago, Seams said:

 

I've been pulling together some thoughts for a new entry in the Puns and Wordplay thread, but it matches up so well with some of this discussion that I'll try it out here, half-baked though it may be. Actually, this draws on ideas from a lot of other threads and may explain some seemingly unrelated details in the books.

Iron / Noir / Rhoyne

I think there is built-in wordplay using "Iron" and the french word "noir," meaning black. But french adjectives change with the gender of the noun they modify, so "noir" is the same word as "noire," and that got the overactive wordplay area of my brain thinking about the river Rhoyne, also known as mother Rhoyne. (Different letters, but a sort of anagram.)

What do Iron and noir and the Rhoyne have in common? I'm still not entirely sure, but I think the mysterious loop the Shy Maid experiences might be the key. I think there is an oxbow that has reconnected to the river to create a complete loop. The passengers on the boat didn't notice that they had looped around an oxbow because they were arguing, so they believe they have magically traveled back in time to undergo a second attack by the stonemen.

Oxbows can come and go. It was on the thread discussing inns that we discussed that the inn at the crossroads used to be right on the riverbank, but the river had shifted 70 years ago so the inn was no longer right on the water. @deja vu posted a great link to a time lapse image of the shifting course of a river.

These next bits are still largely at the stream-of-consciousness stage:

So the river Rhoyne is like iron and noir - black iron? - and it has a loop. What else has black iron loops? Maester's chains. The link for ravenry is iron and, according to the wiki, black iron on the chain represents warfare. Steel is an alloy that includes iron, and Valyrian steel on a maester's chain represents magic.

Ravens deliver messages - which are made up of words - but are also associated with the ability to fly through the door that separates life and death. (Crones can peer through that door, which is probably why Nan has such good insights through her stories.) Of course, ravens are also strongly associated with Bloodraven, Bran and Jon. (With a side order of Sam Tarly and some other characters.)

Warfare usually involves swords. There is a "words" and "swords" pun, and Tywin tells us that words and swords are both weapons that can win wars. So swords and ravens are linked in that sense. Also, I have been searching on belts because characters seem to carry both blades and messages in their belts. Wait a minute - belts? There's another loop. One that humans put around themselves. Sort of like Maester chains. But I'm not sure if this is just a digression.

There is another important black iron loop: the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter. Iron and bronze, "metals of winter," as Catelyn describes them.

And this all comes back to "noir," possibly, because of the endless loop of sunrise and sunset and the cycle of day and night.

On your good "Thoughts on Bran/Brandon the builder" thread, you figured out that the phrase "a thousand years ago" or even just "a thousand years" was a signal that the reader could expect a reference to an ageless archetype or legend come back to life. I think there may be another signal. This signal that takes the form of an iron ring. When Catelyn, Robb, Greywind and Theon arrive at Riverrun, there is an iron ring in the stone wall where their boat is pulled up. There are iron rings in the ceiling of Davos's dungeon cell at White Harbor. Tyrion wears iron shackles when Jorah Mormont takes him captive. Could the iron ring be a hint that we are about to read about an event that will repeat somewhere else in the story, or that echoes something from a legend (such as Nan's repeated stories)?

What would it mean for Bran's story that the time loop takes the form of an iron loop? Is he helping to forge a chain; one that stretches back to Bran the Builder?

What does this mean for the giant chain that Tyrion commissioned for the harbor at King's Landing?

And here's a time travel random thought that I can't tie into any of this unless words and swords have a special ability to transcend time: What if Tyrion IS Mushroom? We know what he's been carrying around in his shoe ever since he dined with Ilyrio . . . What if his writings could travel back in time, somehow?

ETA: I meant to mention, too, that Tyrion sleeps with his head on a coil of rope while on board the Shy Maid. So I may be overestimating the importance of iron loops. Maybe all loops are important.

One more: I also meant to mention tree rings. How trees keep track of time. So the Ironwood tree (and, perhaps, the Yronwood family) take on a new importance.

Your right, rivers do change course, especially since that area was flooded, the bridge might not even span the entire river anymore.  In fact we know the river is in a different place because they are floating right over where the city use to be.

Actually I might have been reading way to much into that.  We know George originally had Tyrion falling into the water to meet the shrouded lord, and then changed it, so time travel/wormholes might have never been on his mind.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

On 9/30/2016 at 4:56 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

I like how it ties in with this quote to. 

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm."

Shield arm as well as lance arm 

Exactly! There's so much mention of the "old gods" helping the KOTLT in that chapter that it makes you think GRRM is upto something

On 9/30/2016 at 4:56 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

Bloodraven:
"The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

Note the 'learn from it'. This is a neat, sly little insert here and one I think has some influence.

Bran learned of the story from Meera, looks through the Heart tree at Lyanna and laughs happily, it projects on to the tree for Lyanna to see, which she acts on, thus becoming the KotLt. Meera would not have told Bran this story if it had not happened this way, but Bran always caused it to happen this way. It is a Stable Timeloop.

This is not Bran changing the past. Bloodraven is correct. But he may 'learn from it'.

Yes exactly. A stable time loop   What I really like about the way GRRM seems to be doing it is that it's very organic, it's growing from the story and not the other way around. It's not a "forced" closing of the loop - in the sense, it's not like Bran realises "oh shit, I have to do this now to close the loop" - he seems to be in favour of keeping it very naturally a part of the scene.

On 9/30/2016 at 5:10 PM, JaimetheConciliator said:

As opposed to time-travel, I prefer to see it as full-on omnipotence. As in, here is the origin story of a god. In this case, the old gods.

Yes. We're witnessing what it means to be an "old god" in his arc. I don't know if every mention of the old gods in the series is him - it's pretty early to tell - but it's interesting to speculate on how far this stable time looping may go.

 

On 9/30/2016 at 5:47 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

Wee bit of my own thoughts to back up Brans face/facial expression being able to become visible in 'any time'.

With what we know on how Brans face has actually became visible to Theon in the 'present time' on the Winterfell Heart tree, and the idea that time means nothing to the Weirwood trees as past, present and future are all as one, then we can assume that this same projection of a face/facial expression is possible in any 'time', since for the tree 'time' is all one and something the tree simply does not understand.

"Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different."

"And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood,"

"To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one."

One thing which needs to be yet cleared up (as I mentioned to you in PMs) is ---> If Bran sees a certain scene at a point in time, through a Weirwood A, and his face is projected on it at that point, and tomorrow some other greenseer slips into that same weirwood A and sees the same scene A at the same point in time, whose face will show through the tree? 

Let's say BR in his training days was watching the birth of Ned through the heart tree of WF. Now let's suppose Bran in TWOW goes into the same WF heart tree and sees the same scene. What happens then and whose face shows up on the tree? That's something GRRM has to clarify. 

Or the most likely answer, 99% , is I'm overthinking all this stuff