Luke Cage: Tired of Buying New Clothes (Spoiler Thread)

[polishgenius]

8 minutes ago, Relic said:

no....its not.

One ends with a hard R, the other ends with a A. It's certainly not the same word. 

 

If you're speaking or listening in rhotic accents, sure.

In any case, this show itself makes clear that not everyone in the community considers it acceptable, presumably in part because they also consider it the same word or near enough as makes no difference.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

 

If you're speaking or listening in rhotic accents, sure.

In any case, this show itself makes clear that not everyone in the community considers it acceptable, presumably in part because they also consider it the same word or near enough as makes no difference.

" To me, as an African American, the word ‘n****r’ is a victim of a prejudiced person who is economically, politically or socially disenfranchised. While on the other hand the word “n***a” is a phrase black people use with each other to define a real cool homeboy or homegirl. It’s the latter of the two definitions that the African American community has allowed to evolve over the years into a term of endearment.

http://thepioneeronline.com/20399/opinions/what-is-the-difference-between-nigga-and-nigger/

 

The use of this word in hiphop and african american culture has long been discussed and debated. It's probably not a good idea for ANYONE to use either version of the "N Word", but there is no denying that the the word "n***a" is one of the most popular slang words in America in the hip hop community. So, if you aren't black you should never ever use either form. If you ARE black you might want to reflect  on what using that word gets you. 

[Relic]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

In any case, this show itself makes clear that not everyone in the community considers it acceptable, presumably in part because they also consider it the same word or near enough as makes no difference.

It'snot a case of accents or whatever. These are CLEARLY two different words with two different meanings in the A.A. community.

Anyway, as for your second point, absolutely true. 

[polishgenius]

Just now, Relic said:

It'snot a case of accents or whatever. These are CLEARLY two different words with two different meanings in the A.A. community.

I appreciate that they're being said with different intent and to the people saying them there's a clear difference in sound too, but it's also true that for a lot of 'white folk', especially those of us outside America, it simply sounds the same, which is how debates like the original one here spring up in the first place.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

I appreciate that they're being said with different intent and to the people saying them there's a clear difference in sound too, but it's also true that for a lot of 'white folk', especially those of us outside America, it simply sounds the same, which is how debates like the original one here spring up in the first place.

Well now you know. It's not the same word. It bothers me when people like Martin claim that is is, because its the same excuse I've heard from countess of racists who feel they can use the N word freely.  (THEY say it to each other, so why can't I??!! and so on...)

[Zorral]

4 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

There's no appreciable audible difference between the two words to my British ears.

There is a huge difference between the two words -- and no one outside of the African American communities has the license to use either one.

The actos definitely use the n-word in Luke Cage (just as they did in the 70's bloxploitation movies, which is one of the reasons for xplotation in the category, and to which many in the black communities of the time sincerely objected.

The difference between the two usuages, when one is used affectionately among brothers and sisters, or just as a group noun, and the other, which is intentionally insulting, is clearly heard anywhere, as well as in Luke Cage.

Pay attention to the discussion of word within the frame of the show and Luke's philosophy.  As he states at one point, "My father raised me his whole life not to be a n-word!"  It's so very clear what is intended with the context of each scene in which the word is used.

The cultural and political dialog is at least as important to Luke Cage as the fairly meaningless superhero organ-waving, posturing shenanigans and violent action, despite that being what so many want.  Now that the episodes have fairly devolved to this the series is far less interesting to this viewer, but it is superhero comix stuff, and why I quit reading them about age 15 and stopped going to see the movies. 

IOW, we're not all the same!  

 

 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Relic said:

Well now you know. It's not the same word. It bothers me when people like Martin claim that is is, because its the same excuse I've heard from countess of racists who feel they can use the N word freely.  (THEY say it to each other, so why can't I??!! and so on...)

Yah -- until they walked the walk and suffered the generations of exploitation and torture that African Americans communities' ancestors did, and continuation of same by the minstrelistic term, Jim Crow, there is NO right at all for others to even think that word.

 

[polishgenius]

20 minutes ago, Zorral said:

There is a huge difference between the two words -- and no one outside of the African American communities has the license to use either one.

Would people stop telling me there's a huge difference when not just me but several people in this topic - including those of you arguing that there is, seeing as some of you are arguing that the show isn't using the worse one and some are saying it has- are telling you that to some ears there isn't? Being told it on repeat isn't actually going to change that.

I know that they're not meant to mean the same thing but they sound similar enough- to some ears the same- that it's not clear where the distinction is. Like, sometimes context makes it obvious but sometimes, clearly, not. Which is all I was saying.

Eta: this debate is going nowhere. I might make my next post something about the actual show.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Would people stop telling me there's a huge difference when not just me but several people in this topic 

What are you talking about? One word ends with a hard RRRRRR sound, the other doesn't. Our native language is the same and i have zero issues hearing the difference. 

[polishgenius]

8 minutes ago, Relic said:

What are you talking about? One word ends with a hard RRRRRR sound, the other doesn't. Our native language is the same and i have zero issues hearing the difference. 

If you don't know what a non-rhotic accent is that's on you. No need to get aggressive about it.

To put it another way if I concentrate or if someone really enunciates I could hear the difference but in my regular speech a word ending in 'ger' and a word ending in 'ga' sound the same and so when I'm just casually watching something my brain doesn't parse the difference.

[The Wolves]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

If you're speaking or listening in rhotic accents, sure.

In any case, this show itself makes clear that not everyone in the community considers it acceptable, presumably in part because they also consider it the same word or near enough as makes no difference.

I'm African American and I can defiantly say that not everyone in any African American community considers it acceptable. 

The older generations definitely dislike that word. Also being brought up by my grandfather who lived through the civil rights era and suffered through racism that word was a no no around him. 

And was it vibranium that Diamondback used to shoot Luke? 

[Argonath Diver]

Just want to chime in on the two words thing. There are two very, very different words here.

I live in a neighborhood in Queens, New York that is very diverse. In fact, if you google "Most diverse neighborhood in the world", my area pops up. It's absolutely fascinating living here. Anyway, kids raised in Queens have a very noticeable dialect that is shared over multiple colors of skin and lots of cultures. Whatever you want to label the culture - I'll go with a vague "Urban" - one word is totally acceptable and the other is not. I hear Latin kids, Arab kids, white kids, and black kids walking down the street saying "Yo nigga I just caught that Snorlax down the block!", etc, every single day. They aren't gang members, thugs, or whatever term that might get attached by someone uncomfortable hearing that language. It just means "Dude". If I walked up to my Indian friend down the street and said "My nigga", he'd shake my hands and we'd go have a beer. If I, as a white dude, said in front of anyone in my neighborhood "Did you see that nigger on the news?" I'd get my teeth kicked in. 

It still makes me a bit uncomfortable when I hear a 9 year old boy dropping N bombs as he talks about pokemon, but it simply is not an offensive word to him or his friends. But if they heard someone enunciate that hard R at the end? No bueno.

Regarding the show, I'm up through episode six now. I definitely don't like the show as much as I liked Jessica Jones - partially because I'm madly in lust over Krysten Ritter. I love the music and setting, but once it's just a big dude throwing smaller dudes into walls, I kind of check out. I still am enjoying the crap out of it, and I haven't stopped listening to the playlist on spotify since I learned of its existence.

[Relic]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

If you don't know what a non-rhotic accent is that's on you. 

No, never heard of that until today. Cheers.

Curious tho, have you never listened to any sort of hip hop? 

Anyway, the moral here is that they are two different words and you shouldn't use either of them. 

[polishgenius]

7 minutes ago, Relic said:

Curious tho, have you never listened to any sort of hip hop?

 

Obviously I have. Like I said above, I understand that there is a difference, and in some cases context makes it obvious, but it's not audible to me or many others and that's why confusions about which word this show is using arise (especially in the context of conversations like the one bookending episode 2, which is one of those where the context does not make it clear).

For the record, I never use either version of the word. It's much more of an American debate in any case, and mostly comes over in England through American cultural influence, but yeah.

[Kindly Old Man]

I finished it. I really loved this show for the first eight episodes or so. I loved the setting, the music, the casting, and almost all of the acting. I thought the performances were good enough that they even managed to make some of the more cheesy lines of dialogue work (well, not the Catwoman-esque basketball scene - that was awful). I especially liked Mahershala Ali as Cottonmouth; I enjoyed seeing his backstory and the way he managed to maneuver his way past all the various obstacles he encountered.

Spoilers all:

Spoiler

 

Then, of course, they killed him. At first I thought this was bold storytelling that could turn out well. The new villain was mysterious and finally had the ability to hurt Cage, and I thought Mariah had potential as a new villain. But, no. Mariah immediately turned out to be a total nonentity. I mean, she needed a fake witness to support their framing story, and who does she choose? The world's most timid waitress, who used to turn to Luke Cage for protection when she had to go upstairs. Mariah's schemes didn't get much better from there. Then there's Diamondback, an absolute idiot with a totally undeserved sense of superiority. The kind of dude who chews out his subordinates for not being able to find Luke Cage when he was the one who shot Cage and then just watched the garbage truck slowly drive off without trying to finish him off or follow it. An idiot with the wherewithal to produce enough Judas bullets to supply the whole police force, but who only carries around a couple of them, even though killing Luke Cage is his entire purpose in life. A villain who fires two guns at Misty Night from a few feet away but only manages to hit her arm. And then all the whining about how Daddy didn't love him and constant Bible quotes. He just sucked. Finally there's Shades, who I was initially sure would have some cool eye related power. Laser blasts or hypnosis or something. But nope, he turns out to have all the powers of Corey Hart. He eventually gets beaten up by a nurse. He at least showed good sense on a few occasions, so I guess he's not a total loss.

I did enjoy a lot of things in the latter half. Colter's performance was still great. Rosario Dawson is always awesome, and I liked the scenes with the doctor. Misty Knight had some good stuff, particularly her therapy scene. But the villains really brought it down for me. Still, I like the world they've built here and I am looking forward to seeing more of it. Although unfortunately it looks like they're bringing back Diamondback. I wish they'd have resurrected Cottonmouth.

 

 

[Mladen]

2 hours ago, Relic said:

What are you talking about? One word ends with a hard RRRRRR sound, the other doesn't. Our native language is the same and i have zero issues hearing the difference. 

As someone who doesn't come from US, I have to say that for me both words are unacceptable, whether African Americans like to use one of them or not (after all, just like a woman can be misogynist, an African American can be prejudicial or even racist). For me, the harshest variation is the one ending with O, but at the end of the day, I personally believe that none variation is actually appropriate for a civilized conversation. I was honestly confused when someone said that "N-word hasn't been used" given that variation (different word, whatever) has been used. Finally, some of us didn't grow in NYC, or have been exposed to the hip-hop culture, so cutting some slacks wouldn't be the worst idea. Obviously, this show needs a bit more guidance than usual Marvel/Netflix dramas.

[polishgenius]

Just to go back to something that was brought up earlier:

 

On 01/10/2016 at 1:30 AM, RumHam said:

Minor nitpick, but it seems odd that (episode three spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

Well first the idea that they were taking donations or grant money or whatever and using it to remodel Cottonmouth's club seemed off. If he's the head of a criminal enterprise why did he need Mariah's money? Especially since using that money was so risky for her, and it was only to remodel a club, not exactly some urgent expense. And now we find out he's got $7 million cash on hand? So the whole "we need that million dollars they stole back now or my political career is over" thing seems really odd. Also going to war with Domingo over $1 million when he should know he's in the wrong, they didn't get what they paid for. 

But other than that and the occasional clunky line ("I've got to get that trademark") I'm really enjoying it.

 

I suspect that the writers meant 'operating budget' when they said 'reserve' in the scene where he's kicking off about it, but either way: for the level Cottonmouth

wants to be operating at, 7mil is not a lot at all. And that plays into his whole character- he wants to be a terrifying villain, but he's vulnerable as shit and he knows it.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

12 hours ago, Relic said:

They aren't using the "N"  word. Why do white people still not understand that there are two versions of this word, with one version ending in R and the other in A. The latter is used all across the hip hop genre and is acceptable for use in the African American community (at least according to some people).

 

 

9 hours ago, polishgenius said:

 

There's no appreciable audible difference between the two words to my British ears.

@polishgeniusAudibly it's the difference between pronouncing a hard "r" sound vs no "R" sound at all and ending on a long "A" sound. For example, saying supa dupa vs super duper as in Missy Elliot's "Rain (Supa Dupa Fly)."

But contextually, Relic and others really need to know there's no difference between the meaning of the two words whatsoever. I believe it and there's no reason to think the writers of the show believe it either. At least Luke Cage doesn't distinguish meanings between the two pronunciations. There's a very memorable scene at the beginning of ep2 where Luke addresses this explicitly. This same scene is even called back to in a later episode, I forget which episode though. Anyway, I think the writers use the "n-word" so much in the series because they're trying to keep the tone of the show set in reality (as most MCU properties are) as much as possible, and the use of the "n-word" is prolific, pervasive even, in modern African-American dialect. 

I'm not sure about elsewhere, but there's definitely a double standard for the use of the "n-word" in America. African-Americans freely use it so much so that many adolescents and even young children have to be reminded that it's an inappropriate word, a swear or curse word. This is another reason I think the Swear Jar is so important early on in the show. In a show that's fairly overtly "preachy" on African-American, pop-culture, social issues, and history this swear jar is a subtle way to say to the African-American community that if African-American's can't communicate or even speak about themselves in a respectful manner, then how can they expect anyone else to. That's just my three cents on the whole matter.

[dog-days]

In most parts of England, the 'r' at the end of a word isn't pronounced. When it is, it's called rhoticity. In standard UK English, we instead use a sound called "schwa" - a kind of indeterminate 'uh' sound, the sound of an unstressed vowel. So supa dupa and super duper would both be pronounced by me and other Englanders as supuh dupuh. 

In music it's a bit different - a lot of popular singers tend to ape American models, and in any case, the pronunciation becomes more exaggerated. I haven't listened to hip hop, but it's possible a British hip hop artist would articulate 'ah' differently to 'er'; otoh, perhaps he wouldn't. 

 

[PetyrPunkinhead]

@dog-daysSo, you're understanding the difference in pronunciations then, yeah? When I refer to pronouncing a word ending with a hard "R" it would be "rhoticity," to your ears. Like "purr" in the kitten's purr. Thus when I write "super duper pooper scooper trooper" it'd be pronounced = supeR dupeR poopeR scoopeR troopeR. And your phonetic spelling using "uh" and ours with "a" would be equivalent; thus in pronunciation (US) supa dupa = (UK) supuh dupuh.