Petyr Baelish: A new man?

[the tower of albion]

In the show, will Peytr Baelish change his agenda in the face of the truth of the others or will he carry on regardless. His character hasn't really gone through any transformative experience such as Jamie, Tyrion, Sansa etc. Could it be that we'll see a complete about face from Petyr as he realises just how much is at stake - that every thing he has gained could be lost to the long night. Do you think him capable of becoming a better man?  Would you be surprised if he did change or remain suspicious of his agenda.

[Shane snow]

I've always thought for some reason we will get littlefinger doing something good. I don't know why or what he would do but I could see him doin he something almost Snape like lol

[HanginginWesteros]

No, not happening. He's a manipulative, lying, selfish snake. No redemptive arcs for him. 

[Dolorous Gabe]

On 10/1/2016 at 7:31 PM, HanginginWesteros said:

No, not happening. He's a manipulative, lying, selfish snake. No redemptive arcs for him. 

I agree with this.

He is one of the darkest shades of grey of the story.

[dornishdragon]

Unlikely, Petyr is a manipulative and cunning man he will not change his nature either in the series or in the books. Probably in S7 we will try to get Sansa to claim Winterfell  putting her in collision course with Jon. 

[Iron Mother]

On 9/30/2016 at 11:46 AM, the tower of albion said:

In the show, will Peytr Baelish change his agenda in the face of the truth of the others or will he carry on regardless. His character hasn't really gone through any transformative experience such as Jamie, Tyrion, Sansa etc. Could it be that we'll see a complete about face from Petyr as he realises just how much is at stake - that every thing he has gained could be lost to the long night. Do you think him capable of becoming a better man?  Would you be surprised if he did change or remain suspicious of his agenda.

Baelish has been an unfolding flower for the entire 6 seasons.  We see a little and a little more but he's pretty much a mystery when you come down to it.  So, I am unsure if he can transform since we don't first really know what he IS.

A "better man"?  I can't process this for Peytr because I really can't tell who he is to the heart of it.  It's total guessing for me.  I BELIEVE he is a completely selfish man who enjoys the Game of Thrones and wants to see how high he can go with his own status and power.  But unlike others in the show, we do not (or I don't) know what his "end game" is.  Not really.  We all think he wants Sansa but for what reason?  He's been lining up scheme after scheme since before the show begins (his whole life). 

It's kinda like that TV show REVENGE if anybody watched it.  She's on this mission and all her enemies are in the total dark about who she even is.  That's Petyr.

So, I don't see him transforming so much as more unfolding off his "petals" and we slowly see more of his true intentions come to clarity.  I remember how shocked I was when he pushed Lysa out the moon door.  Everyone was.  But more shocking was She had been assisting his plot for a LONG time, even killed her husband, Lord of the Vale, for Petyr.  She was just a piece of the game board Petyr is playing.

[MoreOrLess]

10 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Baelish has been an unfolding flower for the entire 6 seasons.  We see a little and a little more but he's pretty much a mystery when you come down to it.  So, I am unsure if he can transform since we don't first really know what he IS.

A "better man"?  I can't process this for Peytr because I really can't tell who he is to the heart of it.  It's total guessing for me.  I BELIEVE he is a completely selfish man who enjoys the Game of Thrones and wants to see how high he can go with his own status and power.  But unlike others in the show, we do not (or I don't) know what his "end game" is.  Not really.  We all think he wants Sansa but for what reason?  He's been lining up scheme after scheme since before the show begins (his whole life). 

It's kinda like that TV show REVENGE if anybody watched it.  She's on this mission and all her enemies are in the total dark about who she even is.  That's Petyr.

So, I don't see him transforming so much as more unfolding off his "petals" and we slowly see more of his true intentions come to clarity.  I remember how shocked I was when he pushed Lysa out the moon door.  Everyone was.  But more shocking was She had been assisting his plot for a LONG time, even killed her husband, Lord of the Vale, for Petyr.  She was just a piece of the game board Petyr is playing.

I didn't find the Lysa death very shocking simply because it was made so plain that he didn't actually have any feelings for her but as you say the big unknown with him is whether he actually does have feelings for Sansa and how deep they might go.

That seems very likely to be the focus of his character from this point onwards, does he choose Sansa or does he choose grasping for as much power as possible? you could argue that one reading of the character is the two were combined, he failed to get her mother due to a lack of power and so grasping for power is compensation for that but has it now become an end to itself?

It will be interesting to see just how many of the "political" characters actually have to face the threat of the Walkers, the likes of Jon, Dany, Jorah, Bran, Sam, Mel and perhaps Ayra etc seem setup for that supernatural threat but the likes of LF, Sansa, Cersei and to a lesser degree Jamie, Varys and Tyrion do not. It does seem like the "politicans" being dumbfounded by an ice zombie invasion could get rather repeative if there all still around hence the belief that many won't be.

[Iron Mother]

3 hours ago, MoreOrLess said:

I didn't find the Lysa death very shocking simply because it was made so plain that he didn't actually have any feelings for her but as you say the big unknown with him is whether he actually does have feelings for Sansa and how deep they might go.

That seems very likely to be the focus of his character from this point onwards, does he choose Sansa or does he choose grasping for as much power as possible? you could argue that one reading of the character is the two were combined, he failed to get her mother due to a lack of power and so grasping for power is compensation for that but has it now become an end to itself?

It will be interesting to see just how many of the "political" characters actually have to face the threat of the Walkers, the likes of Jon, Dany, Jorah, Bran, Sam, Mel and perhaps Ayra etc seem setup for that supernatural threat but the likes of LF, Sansa, Cersei and to a lesser degree Jamie, Varys and Tyrion do not. It does seem like the "politicans" being dumbfounded by an ice zombie invasion could get rather repeative if there all still around hence the belief that many won't be.

I doubt if he even really has feelings for Sansa except as a tool to get what he wants.  Not to get too into it, he keeps saying he's only ever loved one woman.  Cat. How does that definitively transfer to Sansa?  Maybe he has (not even MAYBE! he IS) manipulating Sansa this whole time.  She no longer believes it is completely without a price.  They want us to think he lies to everyone except Sansa.   hmmmmmmm

Yes, the more political people (who cannot fight or don't know war themselves) will make some alliances in that form with people who do. 

Looks to be a North and South conflict at first.  But there's immediate strife with Dorne + Dany right next to king's landing and the Flower region.  They are RIGHT next to each other.  How can there now be major immediate war when she comes from the East?  North won't want to be ruled EVER I hate to think there may even be an alliance with the Krakens and Jon/Sansa/Petyr... and could interfere with Asha/Theon... and drag Dany into that which wouldn't be good and just expand the fighting (and against beloved Jonaerys and burgeoning Sandra).

To me the name Song of Ice and Fire makes cclear right there Dany is Fire and Jon is Ice with the coldd Direworlf lineage through Lyanna.  How the ice must come together with fire to cancel it out (the bloodshed).  Whether that is for against the WW Army or their love or both.

[MoreOrLess]

8 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

I doubt if he even really has feelings for Sansa except as a tool to get what he wants.  Not to get too into it, he keeps saying he's only ever loved one woman.  Cat. How does that definitively transfer to Sansa?  Maybe he has (not even MAYBE! he IS) manipulating Sansa this whole time.  She no longer believes it is completely without a price.  They want us to think he lies to everyone except Sansa.   hmmmmmmm

Yes, the more political people (who cannot fight or don't know war themselves) will make some alliances in that form with people who do. 

Looks to be a North and South conflict at first.  But there's immediate strife with Dorne + Dany right next to king's landing and the Flower region.  They are RIGHT next to each other.  How can there now be major immediate war when she comes from the East?  North won't want to be ruled EVER I hate to think there may even be an alliance with the Krakens and Jon/Sansa/Petyr... and could interfere with Asha/Theon... and drag Dany into that which wouldn't be good and just expand the fighting (and against beloved Jonaerys and burgeoning Sandra).

To me the name Song of Ice and Fire makes cclear right there Dany is Fire and Jon is Ice with the coldd Direworlf lineage through Lyanna.  How the ice must come together with fire to cancel it out (the bloodshed).  Whether that is for against the WW Army or their love or both.

If you consider LF driven by the early loss of the young Cat then I think switching his affections to Sansa makes a lot of sense, especially as the adult Cat I was so actively hostile to him before her death. That doesn't of course mean those affections would be very healthy though even if they do exist.

Obviously he's not some dashing knight who will leap to her defence at the first sign of danger but if it comes down to a straight choice between furthering his power and Sansa's life I would say his intensions are rather uncertain and this might well be a point of drama in season 7.

LF and Sansa could be involved in some kind of power play totally independent of the conflict between Dany and Cersei with one or both meeting there ends that well. They could also potentially become involved in that conflict without the north as a whole doing so, perhaps taking the Vale forces and maybe trying to pickup Riverlands forces as well? LF potentially dumping/killing Sansa for one of the rival queens could make for a big climax there or her finding out he has plans to and offing him first.

We could also have a full scale conflict involving the northern forces as well but to me it seems less likely than Jon would allow himself to be drawn into that. My feeling is that whilst he might have to deal with LF scheming next season theres also likely to be a good deal of setup for the Walker conflict involving him and potentially meeting Bran.

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

The only way i see him doing anything good or not for his own gain, is if he puts his own neck on the line to protect Sansa in some way, i do believe he has a very little soft spot for her even if he is using her. I think only when she is in grave danger will his true caring feelings for her appear to himself.

[Iron Mother]

2 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

The only way i see him doing anything good or not for his own gain, is if he puts his own neck on the line to protect Sansa in some way, i do believe he has a very little soft spot for her even if he is using her. I think only when she is in grave danger will his true caring feelings for her appear to himself.

He has already risked himself for her in so many ways.  But in ways that are pretty far removed from it being exposed publicly. 

But if you look, he left her alone with Ramsay (maybe the worst thing) to return to Cercei to make sure she thinks he is still on her side.  What I just said makes sense in The Game.  Thus, that's why he did it.  But protecting Sansa was nowhere to be found.  And it also risked permanently alienating her.  She almost had Brienne cut him down in anger over that.

I do believe he has some delusion like "I've waited all this time to marry because I loved Cat" and even approaches Cat when Ned died - trying to convince her they can be together now!  So, Sansa is the next best thing, but I don't think it's hardly real at all.

[Westerosi Coast Gangster]

LF would let Westerns burn , if he could be king of the ashes.

[Iron Mother]

1 hour ago, Westerosi Coast Gangster said:

LF would let Westerns burn , if he could be king of the ashes.

there it is.  that's his priority.  Would he like Sansa to be his queen?  SURE.  If Sansa got in the way of him getting the crown, would he hesitate to destroy her?  NO.

[MoreOrLess]

To be fair that's Varys judgement of him, he's obviously correct in terms of LF being incredibly ruthless but likely does not know of potential romantic motivations so well.

[OldGimletEye]

Nah, I see him being the same old dirtbag as always.

[moonlightof1982]

If Petyr Baelish is this evil man, it is playing the game of thrones that made him that way. He is not originally evil. He obviously has goodness in him when he tried to fight for Cat's hand. I believe that he truly loved Cat as a child. But he can't let it go, and that is what ruins him. He is intelligent, driven, and handsome. In Feast, Sansa says he is warm, gentle, and funny, all of which are true, If he could let go of his obsession with Cat, "the game", and the need to be better than everyone else and be thankful for what he has, then he could easily be a good and decent man. If he could let go of "Littlefinger" and just be "Petyr", then he would be alright.   

[DraculaAD1972]

21 hours ago, moonlightof1982 said:

If Petyr Baelish is this evil man, it is playing the game of thrones that made him that way. He is not originally evil. He obviously has goodness in him when he tried to fight for Cat's hand. I believe that he truly loved Cat as a child. But he can't let it go, and that is what ruins him. He is intelligent, driven, and handsome. In Feast, Sansa says he is warm, gentle, and funny, all of which are true, If he could let go of his obsession with Cat, "the game", and the need to be better than everyone else and be thankful for what he has, then he could easily be a good and decent man. If he could let go of "Littlefinger" and just be "Petyr", then he would be alright.   

Yes but I think Petyr sees himself as a benevolent dictator - his words to Sansa, ' sometimes those with the most power have the least grace'. Those words suggest he plans to wield the power more gracefully than those who came before. 

[lady_xanax]

On 08/10/2016 at 11:07 AM, Iron Mother said:

Baelish has been an unfolding flower for the entire 6 seasons.  We see a little and a little more but he's pretty much a mystery when you come down to it.  So, I am unsure if he can transform since we don't first really know what he IS..

I really like that as a description; he is quite an enigmatic character and I think there are layers to him.

 

21 hours ago, moonlightof1982 said:

If Petyr Baelish is this evil man, it is playing the game of thrones that made him that way. He is not originally evil. He obviously has goodness in him when he tried to fight for Cat's hand. I believe that he truly loved Cat as a child. But he can't let it go, and that is what ruins him. He is intelligent, driven, and handsome. In Feast, Sansa says he is warm, gentle, and funny, all of which are true, If he could let go of his obsession with Cat, "the game", and the need to be better than everyone else and be thankful for what he has, then he could easily be a good and decent man. If he could let go of "Littlefinger" and just be "Petyr", then he would be alright.   

Just my thoughts, but I don't see him as evil particularly; everyone who is playing the game of thrones is doing so because they believe they have the rightful claim to the throne due to their birthright. I think that Baelish wants the throne not just for a power trip but because he isn't the alpha male type that Westerosi society value and that Ned embodies so he wants to prove everyone wrong and perhaps resolve some insecurities.

I agree with you in that I think he did love Cat and is still stuck in a childlike mindset- if he can't have her, he'll have everything else. To what extent he has feelings for Sansa is up for debate; I think that his overriding motive there is because it benefits him politically but I think there's an element of disbelief that a beautiful girl who is out of his league is within his grasp and control (although maybe not so much in his control after Ramsey). For me, there is humanity in Baelish- deeply flawed but it's there- so I cannot dismiss him as completely evil.

[moonlightof1982]

4 minutes ago, DraculaAD1972 said:

Yes but I think Petyr sees himself as a benevolent dictator - his words to Sansa, ' sometimes those with the most power have the least grace'. Those words suggest he plans to wield the power more gracefully than those who came before. 

Maybe he will be a good ruler, maybe he won't. One thing I do know is that he is a one hell of a player, and I wouldn't bet against him anytime soon. He is a match for anything. I'm looking forward to what he can achieve in the books and show. If they have to kill him off, let it be at the tail end, Not now. 

[lady_xanax]

4 minutes ago, moonlightof1982 said:

Maybe he will be a good ruler, maybe he won't. One thing I do know is that he is a one hell of a player, and I wouldn't bet against him anytime soon. He is a match for anything. I'm looking forward to what he can achieve in the books and show. If they have to kill him off, let it be at the tail end, Not now. 

I think that there's still surprises to come from him. I think he would wield the power very well but it would be a question of gaining the people's respect and whether he likes the people enough to want to rule benevolently. I hope they don't kill him off; I think as a sort of self-made man he's an interesting contrast.