Was Jojen wrong?

[Arry_Stark]

In ACoK Jojen tells Brand and Meera about some green dreams he had, one of them is of Reek (later revealed as Ramsay Snow) skinning Bran's and Rickon's faces. Since all other prophecies of Jojen were true in at least some way, I wonder what's about that prophecy. Will Ramsay skin Bran and Rickon in the future? Was it simply wrong? Or was it meant metaphorically like the sea crashing over Winterfell?

[Tucu]

It is not clear if Jojen saw Ramsay killing Bran and Rickon or just images with symbols pointing to them (the 2 Miller's kids with their clothes). I believe that Meera and Osha intervention altered the timeline just enough for them to survive without trying to invalidate the prophecy.

[Michael Mertyns]

I took it to refer to the two boys killed in place of Bran and Rickon. For all the rest of the world knows, they're dead.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

14 minutes ago, Michael Mertyns said:

I took it to refer to the two boys killed in place of Bran and Rickon. For all the rest of the world knows, they're dead.

This. The miller's, or Theon's, sons were Rickon and Bran and they died.

 

[Cridefea]

 

On 1/10/2016 at 9:15 PM, Michael Mertyns said:

I took it to refer to the two boys killed in place of Bran and Rickon. For all the rest of the world knows, they're dead.

Yes, It's a metaphor, Ramsay took their identities, and put their masks/faces/ids on miller's children.

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Cridefea said:

Yes, It's a metaphor, Ramsay took their identity, and put their masks/faces/ids on miller's children.

It is a complex metaphor, and I think Cridefea is correct that the first layer of the metaphor was that it was Ramsay (disguised as Reek) who thought to substitute the miller's boys for Bran and Rickon, to fool people into believing that Theon had killed the Stark heirs.

But there's more to this whole set of symbols, I think.

Ramsay himself is the son of a miller's wife.

The original Reek was someone that Roose came up with as a sort of gift to Ramsay when Ramsay's mother said the boy was too hard to handle. I think the original Reek became a sort of brother figure for Ramsay, joining him in his favorite "sport" of hunting and raping and killing women. Ramsay sacrifices the original Reek (his "brother"), swapping identities with him, when Ser Rodrick Cassel approaches to execute Ramsay for his treatment of Lady Hornwood.

My point is that the two miller's boys might also symbolize Ramsay and Reek.

Just to complicate matters further, Theon "becomes" Reek after the first Reek dies. (Compare to the way that Tyrion "becomes" Penny's brother, Groat, after he dies.) And both Theon and Ramsay claim the title of Prince of Winterfell, a title that should belong to Bran (or to Jon Snow, if Robb's will becomes known).

And here's a further layer of possible complication:

Millers make flour. Flour is part of a group of puns, I believe, with flowers and flow. Flow is wolf spelled backwards, and could either imply the opposite of wolves or something that balances out wolves or the mirror image of wolves. I'm not sure, but I'm fairly sure the author wants us to notice the flow / flour / flower puns and to consider their relationship to wolf references.

Jon Snow is a "wolf," but he is also associated with flowers, through the blue winter roses given to Lyanna by Rhaegar. And here is Jon associated with flour:

Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. "There are worse things than spiders and rats," he whispered. "This is where the dead walk." That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya's hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb's leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. "You stupid," she told him, "you scared the baby," but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too.

The memory made Arya smile, and after that the darkness held no more terrors for her.

(AGoT, Arya IV)

 

But Jojen also saw the sea FLOW over the walls of Winterfell in one of his dreams. That was a metaphor for the Ironborn invasion led by Theon, so flow is also associated with Theon.

 

So the faceless, dead miller's boys could be represent several deaths or symbolic deaths. They could also symbolize the juxtaposition of "flow" (flour) and "wolf," perhaps representing the idea that the two are not interchangeable.

 

Of course, the fact that Ramsay skinned the faces off the dead boys is probably also an allusion to the Faceless Men, and their ability to take on someone else's identity....

[Clegane'sPup]

On 10/1/2016 at 2:55 PM, Arry_Stark said:

In ACoK Jojen tells Brand and Meera about some green dreams he had, one of them is of Reek (later revealed as Ramsay Snow) skinning Bran's and Rickon's faces. Since all other prophecies of Jojen were true in at least some way, I wonder what's about that prophecy. Will Ramsay skin Bran and Rickon in the future? Was it simply wrong? Or was it meant metaphorically like the sea crashing over Winterfell?

CoK c.35"I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard. When I first dreamed the dream, back at Greywater, I didn't know their faces, but now I do. This is Jojen speaking to Bran.

It was a few days after Alebelly's bath that Ser Rodrik returned to Winterfell with his prisoner, a fleshy young man with fat moist lips and long hair who smelled like a privy, even worse than Alebelly had. "Reek, he's called," Hayhead said when Bran asked who it was. "I never heard his true name. He served the Bastard of Bolton and helped him murder Lady Hornwood, they say." This Reek of course the reader later finds out is Ramsey.

"Did you see me in a green dream?" he [Bran] asked Jojen nervously. "Was I drowned?"

"Not drowned." Jojen spoke as if every word pained him. "I dreamed of the man who came today, the one they call Reek. You and your brother lay dead at his feet, and he was skinning off your faces with a long red blade."

Jojen's mossy eyes were full of pity. "They won't be able to stop him, Bran. I couldn't see why, but I saw the end of it. I saw you and Rickon in your crypts, down in the dark with all the dead kings and their stone wolves."

 

Jojen says green dreams do not lie. Bran’s next chapter c.46 opens with a wolf dream and the Ironborn sneak into WF. The first part of Jojen’s green dream about the sea coming to WF has come true.

CoK c.50 a Theon chapter,  Bran & company go missing. This was an interesting re-read. People in story assume Bran & company left WF. I did too, until it was revealed that Bran & company had been hiding out in the crypts.  Another part of Jojen’s green dream comes true. I saw you and Rickon in your crypts, down in the dark with all the dead kings and their stone wolves."

Beyond the outer wall, the tracks were plain to read in the soft ground; the pawprints of the wolves, Hodor's heavy tread, the shallower marks left by the feet of the two Reeds. Once under the trees, the stony ground and fallen leaves made the trail harder to see, but by then Farlen's red bitch had the scent.

What strikes me strange is that before they go out tracking, Reek [Ramsey] arrived carrying a boar spear and an overstuffed washerwoman's sack bulging with god knows what. They search & search to no avail. Then Reek [Ramsey] suggests to Theon that they check the miller’s place and Reek [Ramsey] shows Theon what is in the overstuffed washerwoman’s sack. Theon sends most of the party back to WF .

CoK  c. 56 opens with Theon’s nightmares. I read about two tar covered heads upon spikes upon the walls of WF. It would seem that the third part of Jojen’s green dream came true. You and your brother lay dead at his feet, and he was skinning off your faces with a long red blade."

Back up a teeny bit. There seems to be no straight lines in Martin’s saga. Whatz dat? Jojen told papa Reed about his green dream. Papa Reed sends his kids to WF.

"When Jojen told our lord father what he'd dreamed, he sent us to Winterfell."

"The green dreams take strange shapes sometimes," Jojen admitted. "The truth of them is not always easy to understand."

 

Wait a minute, Jojen told Howland what he dreamt and Howland sent his kids to WF to intervene and swear the oath anew.  Jojen said green dreams do not lie; except he also says they take strange shapes sometimes and the truth of them is not easy to understand.

Soooooo, I was wondering could Jojen’s so called green dream about the day he [Jojen] dies might be one of dem metaphors? Jojen’s death dream has not been described yet. Could Jojen have read his metaphors, allegories or symbolisms incorrectly?

[Cridefea]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

Ramsay himself is the son of a miller's wife.

The original Reek was someone that Roose came up with as a sort of gift to Ramsay when Ramsay's mother said the boy was too hard to handle. I think the original Reek became a sort of brother figure for Ramsay, joining him in his favorite "sport" of hunting and raping and killing women. Ramsay sacrifices the original Reek (his "brother"), swapping identities with him, when Ser Rodrick Cassel approaches to execute Ramsay for his treatment of Lady Hornwood.

My point is that the two miller's boys might also symbolize Ramsay and Reek.

This isn't a metaphor of the green dream. But you could be right, it could be the reason why Ramsay chose miller's children. And it makes Ramsay more creepy, btw.

2 hours ago, Seams said:

Of course, the fact that Ramsay skinned the faces off the dead boys is probably also an allusion to the Faceless Men, and their ability to take on someone else's identity....

I think it was an hint to Bolton's sigil and passion for skinning. 

[John Suburbs]

On ‎10‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 2:55 PM, Arry_Stark said:

In ACoK Jojen tells Brand and Meera about some green dreams he had, one of them is of Reek (later revealed as Ramsay Snow) skinning Bran's and Rickon's faces. Since all other prophecies of Jojen were true in at least some way, I wonder what's about that prophecy. Will Ramsay skin Bran and Rickon in the future? Was it simply wrong? Or was it meant metaphorically like the sea crashing over Winterfell?

The Bran dream is no more wrong than the ironmen dream. The actual sea did not come to Winterfell, just a band of sea-fairing raiders. The actual Bran and Rickon were not killed, just their dopplegangers.

[sarah.jenice]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The Bran dream is no more wrong than the ironmen dream. The actual sea did not come to Winterfell, just a band of sea-fairing raiders. The actual Bran and Rickon were not killed, just their dopplegangers.

This is how I took it. The dream came to pass since I think it's safe to assume Reek/Ramsay skinned the boys faces so it would be more difficult for anyone to come to make a positive ID.

[Greywater-Watch]

Jojen had apparently two dreams in the Neck:

1) that Brandon (or one of the Starks) would be a "winged wolf", i.e. a greenseer to be guided somewhere

2) the vision of Bran and Rickon being skinned.

Knowing that greenseer dreams are difficult to interpret, Jojen probably concluded that there was a way to circumvene the second vision (by helping Bran and Rickon to escape). Which was successful, because doubleganger's have been skinned (or burned) and thus the second prophecy has been done good for. I doubt that Jojen knew precisely this outcome, but he probably hoped for something like this.

[slimyfrogspear]

On 10/1/2016 at 11:55 AM, Arry_Stark said:

In ACoK Jojen tells Brand and Meera about some green dreams he had, one of them is of Reek (later revealed as Ramsay Snow) skinning Bran's and Rickon's faces. Since all other prophecies of Jojen were true in at least some way, I wonder what's about that prophecy. Will Ramsay skin Bran and Rickon in the future? Was it simply wrong? Or was it meant metaphorically like the sea crashing over Winterfell?

All prophecies and visions are flawed. None shows an absolute truth or future. Jojen was as right a a vision could be. 

[cgrav]

3 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

 

Knowing that greenseer dreams are difficult to interpret, Jojen probably concluded that there was a way to circumvene the second vision (by helping Bran and Rickon to escape). 

Jojen, more than any other character, submits to fate as prophesied. He knows that what he sees will happen, but he's as clueless as anyone about how it will look. I doubt he thought of his actions as avoiding fate so much as protecting Bran from immediate danger.