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Thoughts on Daynes


Ser Walton

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I'm at work listening to ACOK, and some things stood out to me. Specifically, in the Jon chapter where he climbs the mountain an finds Ygrette. Sorry for any typos or autocorrects. 

Some tinfoil stuff thrown about here....but I just want to hear others opinions. I am not 100% sold, but I like to think that Mance=Rhaegar is a possibility. 

1. Jon is sent with Stonesnake....

Authur Dayne was a stony dornishman , and we get the imagery of sand snakes and vipers from the Martells, thus Drone in general Is this a reference to Jon being protected by Dayne at the ToJ? AD is a stonesnake in a sense, as his family is of the Stony Dornishman type. Just not the Stonesnake that we meet in the mountains.

2. QHalfhand asked Ygrette if she knew who he was and what her people would do with him.....

Makes me think that Ygrette did know who he was, and that Mance would keep him alive based on her answer.....she said something along the lines of "you'll die slower"  If Mance is Rhagar, then she knows Quorin is really Dayne. And she clearly knows a lot, because she KNOWS that "You know nothing, Jon Snow". She KNOWS. I believe her constant use of his full name in that phrase is sarcasm on her part, because he doesn't even know his own name.  

In this very chapter, it says Dawn arived with Quorin. Placing "Dawn" at the front of the sentence was a clever way to capitalize it without being too obvious. Die slower is another way of saying live out your days, aka, Why would Mance kill his friend Quorin, however his black brothers would kill him quickly....and do, essentially. 

3. When Quorin leaves Jon to kill Ygrette, one of the next lines is Jon and Ghost are left with Ygrette......it was his direwolf literally, and the ghost of AD subtextually. This also would correlate to AD leaving Jon at the ToJ with Ned, with Quorin leaving Jon with Ygrette.....knowing neither Stark would kill the innocent......jon, or Ygrette respectively. 

4. We get another reference to mountains as mothers tits, which is exactly where Jon likely is while in the ToJ, with AD standing at the base of the tower.  In ACoK, he is found hugging the mountain that is a mother's tit, with Quorin waiting at the base of the mountain.

 And just like Jon Snow has to play a false part (as a wildling), so does Ned Stark(as Jons father).  Each one of them makes a life-altering decision after meeting AD, and both involve playing roles that go against their core character. 

Both "kill" Arthur Dayne, Ned does so only figuratively thus allowing Quorin to be born, Jon however doesn't know he is actually killing one of the best swordsman in Westeros history, well, he he was unable without Ghosts help.... (bc AD i's that good, even left handed)

 

More to come...

 

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This is actually one of my favorite theories although I'm not convinced it's true. A lot of people also connect the rubies Rhaegar to the theory bc rubies are generally connected to glamours so it actually wasn't Rhaegar who died. Theres also the red & black cloak (Targ colors) that caused Mance to leave the NW. 

The main issue for me is I believe it's stated that Mance has been in the NW since he was young so idk how the logistics of the whole thing works.

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Possibly by another glamour? 

I think it would be more likely that it is a fabricated story. Several NW brothers recall Mance being a traitor, but none seem to remember growing up with him or seeing him grow up.

 

I just feel that a large number of the NW would express their hatred or dissapointment  of Mance's betrayal, if in fact he was a staple of the NW his whole life. There are some young orphans that do come innocent and with no backstory.....lifers vs newcomers basically. Children raised in the NW vs adults who were sent as punishment would have vastly different outlooks on life at the wall. I just don't see how Mance could do that, and be that cultured, while living on The Wall his whole life. And hardly anyone there expresses their shock, disbelief, or even improbability of it all.  

 

However, if a select few of the good ol' old bro lifers, or the core inner circle, choose to spread that story, then every new recruit would hear it and propogate it. The story only has to hold up to scrutiny long enough for Mance/Rhagar to make his move North of the wall, probably with the help of Blood raven,  and at least 1, probably all 3, of the KG at the ToJ. 

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There are a handful of Jon and Sword of the Morning/Dawn references. One of the most striking is when he's climbing the wall with the wildlings: 

 

 

 

Quote

 The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south, the bright white star in its hilt blazing like a diamond in the dawn, but the blacks and greys of the darkling forest were turning once again to greens and golds, reds and russets. And above the soldier pines and oaks and ash and sentinels stood the Wall, the ice pale and glimmering


The Sword of the Morning constellation of course represents whoever wields Dawn, the colors represent various house sigils (Tyrell, Baratheon, Lannister and... Darry?), and the Wall standing in for the Others/Winter. The Sword of The Morning seems to be standing in opposition to the Others.

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7 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

1. Jon is sent with Stonesnake....

Yet, not all the Daynes have connections with snakes only the Martells.

7 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

2. QHalfhand asked Ygrette if she knew who he was and what her people would do with him.....

Hallfhand was a legend among both the brothers of NW and the free folk. Why should the free folk know Arthur Dayne?

 

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"The moon was rising behind one mountain and the sun sinking behind another as Jon struck sparks from flint and dagger, until finally a wisp of smoke appeared. Qhorin came and stood over him as the first flame rose up flickering from the shavings of bark and dead dry pine needles. "As shy as a maid on her wedding night," the big ranger said in a soft voice, "and near as fair. Sometimes a man forgets how pretty a fire can be."
He was not a man you'd expect to speak of maids and wedding nights. So far as Jon knew, Qhorin had spent his whole life in the Watch. Did he ever love a maid or have a wedding? He could not ask. Instead he fanned the fire."

 

This part always struck me as very odd. Qhorin next to never talks during their travels, but when he decided to, he said some strange shit, as Jon also realizes. IF Qhorin was Arthur, then I believe he is referencing Lyanna and Rhaegar's nuptials. 

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21 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

<snip>

This part always struck me as very odd. Qhorin next to never talks during their travels, but when he decided to, he said some strange shit, as Jon also realizes. IF Qhorin was Arthur, then I believe he is referencing Lyanna and Rhaegar's nuptials. 

Spot on, thank you for pointing this one out to me . 

20 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

I like this theory a lot, but my only question is why would Ned lie to himself? In his POV he remembers the TOJ and tells his children that Howland Reed saved his life from Arthur Dayne. 

Good question . I don't know for certain. However, it never says Howland kills him, and possibly not even Ned says it. He does say that HR  saved his life, the assumption being that he killed or aided in Ned killing Arthur Dayne. That is an assumption that I think Ned intentionally fosters in order to keep the secret (just like he fosters Jon)

Does Ned actually claim or think in his thoughts that he killed Arthur? 

Does he only deliver his sword to the Daynes? 

He delivers Dustin horse....what about Arthur Daynes?  Does Arthur ride away without his sword? This would "prove" his death without a body. 

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I would be very surprised if Quorin turned out to be the actual Arthur Dayne. As member of the KG, Arthur was honor-bound to protect the king, so at the very least he should have been marching with the crown prince to face the king's enemies, not standing guard at a tower with his by-blow. So that fact alone means Jon was just as important as Aerys and Rhaegar to warrant protection by not just one but three KG, including the Lord Commander.

If that is the case, then there is no way someone like AD would do anything but fight to the death to protect his charge.

Also, the Daynes have a rather distinctive, Targaryen look to them. Their hair can range from blond to silver to black, but their skin is fair and their eyes are blue-purple. We don't see any of this in Quorin, although to be fair we don't have much of a description of him.

 

 

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On 10/2/2016 at 1:17 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Yet, not all the Daynes have connections with snakes only the Martells.

Hallfhand was a legend among both the brothers of NW and the free folk. Why should the free folk know Arthur Dayne?

 

I agree, the snake to Dorne reference is not the most certain, but it does occur. I think of Dorne as a nest of vipers, not just the Martells, specifically Oberon. Overall, this is a shaky point, and we need more quotes and/or books to flesh it out. Martin is great at using this form of literary allusion and foreshadow, so I think it may be one that just isn't fully fleshed out yet (i.e. we need the new books!!)

I don't say the free folk all know Quorin as AD, although they all know Quorin for sure. I think Ygrette may know more because she is close to Mance's inner circle, thus having some insider knowledge. It's just a possibility though, by no means surefire (wouldn't Surefire be a great bastard name for confirmed Targ lines?) Clearly she knows SOMETHING because she knows that Jon Snow knows NOTHING. 

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I would be very surprised if Quorin turned out to be the actual Arthur Dayne. As member of the KG, Arthur was honor-bound to protect the king, so at the very least he should have been marching with the crown prince to face the king's enemies, not standing guard at a tower with his by-blow. So that fact alone means Jon was just as important as Aerys and Rhaegar to warrant protection by not just one but three KG, including the Lord Commander.

If that is the case, then there is no way someone like AD would do anything but fight to the death to protect his charge.

Also, the Daynes have a rather distinctive, Targaryen look to them. Their hair can range from blond to silver to black, but their skin is fair and their eyes are blue-purple. We don't see any of this in Quorin, although to be fair we don't have much of a description of him.

 

 

If QH=AD is true, then he in fact does die defending his royal charge. He gives his life to save Jon Snow. Which also prevents us readers from seeing Mance and Quorin together. 

 

It does seem odd that he would abandoned infant Jon Snow and head north to the wall.....

Unless you cosider that it could be a long-game plan, to hide Jon Snows existence. Ned agrees to take Dawn to the Daynes to prove his death, while AD becomes QH (He willingly loses his hand, or loses it to Ned and Howland, either way, it hides his EXTREME talent with a sword). He goes North to prepare to continue  protecting JS, bc he knows JS will be at the wall......because......

Howland Reed comes up with this whole plan. That's how he saves Ned. He sees the solution, and is a possible greenseer anyway. He spent a year at the Isle of Faces, which would link him to Bloodraven possibly, but at the very least, to the weir woods and the weirnet. Thus, giving him knowledge of the vast importance  of this baby.

Has anyone ever questioned how odd it is, timeline wise, that Howland goes to the Isle of Faces, spends a year there, leaves just in time to "come upon" the Tourney at HH, befriend the Starks, the war begins, progresses, and within a year, he is with Ned at the ToJ and "saves" Ned and sets the story into motion?

 

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On 10/2/2016 at 3:59 PM, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

"The moon was rising behind one mountain and the sun sinking behind another as Jon struck sparks from flint and dagger, until finally a wisp of smoke appeared. Qhorin came and stood over him as the first flame rose up flickering from the shavings of bark and dead dry pine needles. "As shy as a maid on her wedding night," the big ranger said in a soft voice, "and near as fair. Sometimes a man forgets how pretty a fire can be."
He was not a man you'd expect to speak of maids and wedding nights. So far as Jon knew, Qhorin had spent his whole life in the Watch. Did he ever love a maid or have a wedding? He could not ask. Instead he fanned the fire."

 

This part always struck me as very odd. Qhorin next to never talks during their travels, but when he decided to, he said some strange shit, as Jon also realizes. IF Qhorin was Arthur, then I believe he is referencing Lyanna and Rhaegar's nuptials. 

Something else I just noticed. Martin has shown plenty of times that he likes to pose very honest and real questions in his characters thoughts, and the narrator is always just about to answer these questions ( questions we argue about for years here on the forums) when suddenly some outside event occurs or similar. Here, he gets away with NOT answering our question, because Jon thinks it would be taboo to ask. It would solve way too many questions if he asked. 

 

What was Quorin gonna say, "well Jon, I didn't mean myself,  I meant your mother, I just forgot how beautiful she was until I saw the fire here, it reminded me of how fair and hot she was, and how she was shy on that night, as I was guarding her and Rhagars bedchamber as they consumated.....oh, er, and, hard har, I'm actually Arthur Dayne.....mayhaps...."

 

Also, one would describe Lyanna, and by extension Arya, as having a firey personality. So comparing Lyanna to a newly made fire would work on several levels. 

 

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48 minutes ago, Ser Walton said:

Something else I just noticed. Martin has shown plenty of times that he likes to pose very honest and real questions in his characters thoughts, and the narrator is always just about to answer these questions ( questions we argue about for years here on the forums) when suddenly some outside event occurs or similar. Here, he gets away with NOT answering our question, because Jon thinks it would be taboo to ask. It would solve way too many questions if he asked. 

 

What was Quorin gonna say, "well Jon, I didn't mean myself,  I meant your mother, I just forgot how beautiful she was until I saw the fire here, it reminded me of how fair and hot she was, and how she was shy on that night, as I was guarding her and Rhagars bedchamber as they consumated.....oh, er, and, hard har, I'm actually Arthur Dayne.....mayhaps...."

 

Also, one would describe Lyanna, and by extension Arya, as having a firey personality. So comparing Lyanna to a newly made fire would work on several levels. 

 

Yeah, I could see that. But the "as shy as a maid on her wedding night, and near as fair" part really sounds like Arya, and Lyanna, who is as fearless and bold as any man in any situation, except for the very rare instances that they actually have to be a proper lady in a solely feminine role. Kinda like Brienne, too.

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1 hour ago, Ser Walton said:

If QH=AD is true, then he in fact does die defending his royal charge. He gives his life to save Jon Snow. Which also prevents us readers from seeing Mance and Quorin together. 

 

It does seem odd that he would abandoned infant Jon Snow and head north to the wall.....

Unless you cosider that it could be a long-game plan, to hide Jon Snows existence. Ned agrees to take Dawn to the Daynes to prove his death, while AD becomes QH (He willingly loses his hand, or loses it to Ned and Howland, either way, it hides his EXTREME talent with a sword). He goes North to prepare to continue  protecting JS, bc he knows JS will be at the wall......because......

Howland Reed comes up with this whole plan. That's how he saves Ned. He sees the solution, and is a possible greenseer anyway. He spent a year at the Isle of Faces, which would link him to Bloodraven possibly, but at the very least, to the weir woods and the weirnet. Thus, giving him knowledge of the vast importance  of this baby.

 

Yes, I believe Rhaegar had a long game, and AD was his main conspirator. I can't fathom an instance where AD would willingly have his swordhand maimed, especially after having to give up Dawn. Probably happened in the battle at TOJ. But that works as a reveal of sorts, in AFFC, when Jaime tells Loras and Co., that Arthur Dayne could've slew all 5 of them with his left hand while taking a piss with his right. That means AD was already known to be ambidextrous, something even a renowned swordsman like Jaime is having great difficulty attempting, but at least he's improving in the books, unlike the show. So, there are only 2 seemingly ambidextrous characters out of the several thousand in Universe, and they are Qhorin and Arthur. And I do believe that Jaime, with continued training, will finally follow in the footsteps of his hero, AD, just not in the way he ever expected. 

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That scene is also one of a great many that pair Jon with fire. The "Mance" burning chapter practically hits you over the head with fire and black/red imagery.

In this instance I'm not sure it works as a Lyanna reference. The fire itself is what's compared to the maid on her wedding night, quite the opposite of Lyanna's usual ice or winter rose symbols. Daenerys, however, is called "Bride of Fire", which folds in the "wedding night" part, though she is long past maidenhood.

Or it could be simply foreshadowing Jon's relationship with "Kissed by fire" Ygritte.

Does the timeline really accommodate Qhorin being anyone from Robert's Rebellion? We're given the impression that he's been with the Watch far longer than 16ish years. That could be a convenient omission, but I have trouble thinking a famous knight like Art D could go anonymous even at the wall.

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1 hour ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

Yes, I believe Rhaegar had a long game, and AD was his main conspirator. I can't fathom an instance where AD would willingly have his swordhand maimed, especially after having to give up Dawn. Probably happened in the battle at TOJ. But that works as a reveal of sorts, in AFFC, when Jaime tells Loras and Co., that Arthur Dayne could've slew all 5 of them with his left hand while taking a piss with his right. That means AD was already known to be ambidextrous, something even a renowned swordsman like Jaime is having great difficulty attempting, but at least he's improving in the books, unlike the show. So, there are only 2 seemingly ambidextrous characters out of the several thousand in Universe, and they are Qhorin and Arthur. And I do believe that Jaime, with continued training, will finally follow in the footsteps of his hero, AD, just not in the way he ever expected. 

Thanks, another great example I hadn't thought of. I'm at work and just spit balling here from memory, so I'm glad that more and more text helps flesh this out. 

 

On the quote about AD using his left hand to kill 5, didnt Ned show up as a party of 7? So in theory, Arthurs hand could have been maimed early, and he still killed the 5 with his left hand. That would leave .....only Ned, Howland,  and Dayne. 

 

Could Howland "saving Ned" be about Howland coming up with the solution, thus saving Neds life (because AD is still a lethal lefty now) AND saving his honor by not having to kill a wounded knight 2v1 that was only protecting his sister?

It adds layers of depth to the story and multiple meanings, which is Martins M.O. to a tee. And it could explain why the show chose to show  AD's ambiguity in a different way.....saves a good reveal for the books. I've contemplated that if Mance = Rhaegar is true, the show must have dropped that storyline for simplicity. 

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1 hour ago, cgrav said:

That scene is also one of a great many that pair Jon with fire. The "Mance" burning chapter practically hits you over the head with fire and black/red imagery.

In this instance I'm not sure it works as a Lyanna reference. The fire itself is what's compared to the maid on her wedding night, quite the opposite of Lyanna's usual ice or winter rose symbols. Daenerys, however, is called "Bride of Fire", which folds in the "wedding night" part, though she is long past maidenhood.

Or it could be simply foreshadowing Jon's relationship with "Kissed by fire" Ygritte.

Does the timeline really accommodate Qhorin being anyone from Robert's Rebellion? We're given the impression that he's been with the Watch far longer than 16ish years. That could be a convenient omission, but I have trouble thinking a famous knight like Art D could go anonymous even at the wall.

Valid point about QH history at the wall, I will have to think and read on that one,  how he could have either blened in (unlikely) or usedo some method of trickery.

 

I will say that the books make a HUGE deal on Jaime losing his hand, and then becoming UNRECOGNIZABLE when he shaved his head and grew a beard. 

So we have both of the "best of their time" swordsmen,  both members of the KG, both eventually LC of the KG, losing their hand, taking on a new look, and questioning where their honor should take them: word of the law or spirit of the law. 

This also sounds like a Martinesque trend....using a past character to symbolically tell a current characters story. If Jaime takes the black, as many theorize he may, it would only add to the analogy. 

About the fire and lyanna, I disagree. It is a direct reference to Lyanna if QH=AD is true. And we must recognize the Lyanna is not the type to be boy crazy, so it may be possible she was different with Rhaegar. If she went willingly, I would say she was being a wild wolf, with a fiery attitude. If they were married as the quote says they were on their marriage night, she would be Lyanna Targaryen, a Fire and Ice rep.  AD would have witness Mad Aerys kill with fire many times, I don't think he would say this quote otherwise,.....he had forgotten that fire could be beautiful, and now he sees the fair maidens and the Targaryen's son making a fire, yet not welding it in such a monstorus way.  

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3 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

If QH=AD is true, then he in fact does die defending his royal charge. He gives his life to save Jon Snow. Which also prevents us readers from seeing Mance and Quorin together. 

 

It does seem odd that he would abandoned infant Jon Snow and head north to the wall.....

Unless you cosider that it could be a long-game plan, to hide Jon Snows existence. Ned agrees to take Dawn to the Daynes to prove his death, while AD becomes QH (He willingly loses his hand, or loses it to Ned and Howland, either way, it hides his EXTREME talent with a sword). He goes North to prepare to continue  protecting JS, bc he knows JS will be at the wall......because......

Howland Reed comes up with this whole plan. That's how he saves Ned. He sees the solution, and is a possible greenseer anyway. He spent a year at the Isle of Faces, which would link him to Bloodraven possibly, but at the very least, to the weir woods and the weirnet. Thus, giving him knowledge of the vast importance  of this baby.

Has anyone ever questioned how odd it is, timeline wise, that Howland goes to the Isle of Faces, spends a year there, leaves just in time to "come upon" the Tourney at HH, befriend the Starks, the war begins, progresses, and within a year, he is with Ned at the ToJ and "saves" Ned and sets the story into motion?

 

Wow, that's a wild theory, but at this point I don't see how this would have any relevancy to the story. I know Martin doesn't write with the kind of literary symmetry that most authors use, but why would he bother putting all this in the backstory if AD simply dies as GH and no one is ever the wiser? It's just as easy to make them two separate people.

Also, this plan would require no one in the NW, not even a great tourney knight like Denys Mallister, would know AD, another great tourny knight, on sight, nor any of the other nobles like Mormont, Rykker, Locke etc. -- not to mention those of the Kingswood Brotherhood, like Ulmer, who were defeated by AD and took the black.

But anything is possible, and there are undoubtedly more than a few surprises in the last two books. At this point, though, I can't see how this secret identity could have any bearing on the story as it unfolds from here.

 

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Wow, that's a wild theory, but at this point I don't see how this would have any relevancy to the story. I know Martin doesn't write with the kind of literary symmetry that most authors use, but why would he bother putting all this in the backstory if AD simply dies as GH and no one is ever the wiser? It's just as easy to make them two separate people.

Also, this plan would require no one in the NW, not even a great tourney knight like Denys Mallister, would know AD, another great tourny knight, on sight, nor any of the other nobles like Mormont, Rykker, Locke etc. -- not to mention those of the Kingswood Brotherhood, like Ulmer, who were defeated by AD and took the black.

But anything is possible, and there are undoubtedly more than a few surprises in the last two books. At this point, though, I can't see how this secret identity could have any bearing on the story as it unfolds from here.

 

All good points, and I myself am not 100% sold on this, I just think it's very possible, and I like it. 

I would add to my post about Jaime becoming unrecognizable, that AD in Night's Watch black, with a new hait cut and different facial hair, might be unrecognizable even to those who knew him. Maybe not those that knew.him well, but even another tourney knight might only have seen him in full KG armor and for very short times. 

And, QH wasnt posted at Castle Black, possible to keep him away from the majority of Brothers, and definitelyall of the new recruits. 

AnD on QH dying, I think it's beautiful that Jon never desired to kill him, but was forced to by Qah himself, thus he killed the guy who basically ended his public life to insure Jon's safety....and not only that, but QH ended his life AGAIN when he gave it to Jon. Just like a true knight of the KG. 

 

This is a wild fancy I admit, but I'm loving how well it fits even if I'm proven wrong. And the payoff will be huge if I'm right. I like how I saw a poster earlier put it (sorry I forgot who posted it).....

.....we must don our Valyrian Foil hats....with bunny ears 

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40 minutes ago, Ser Walton said:

About the fire and lyanna, I disagree. It is a direct reference to Lyanna if QH=AD is true. And we must recognize the Lyanna is not the type to be boy crazy, so it may be possible she was different with Rhaegar. If she went willingly, I would say she was being a wild wolf, with a fiery attitude. If they were married as the quote says they were on their marriage night, she would be Lyanna Targaryen, a Fire and Ice rep.  AD would have witness Mad Aerys kill with fire many times, I don't think he would say this quote otherwise,.....he had forgotten that fire could be beautiful, and now he sees the fair maidens and the Targaryen's son making a fire, yet not welding it in such a monstorus way.  

I think this symbolism is just too inconsistent. Lyanna is fire, but so is Rheagar, so where does the ice come in? The fire symbolism is just so thoroughly Targaryen that I think it would be sloppy to apply it to Lyanna just this one time.

I'm really leaning towards this particular exchange being a foreshadow of Jon and Ygritte. Right after the paragraph quoted above, Jon warms his hands at the fire and describes it as "warmer than a kiss". It's just not totally obvious because it's Jon who is the maid. He "stole" her when he took her captive at the Skirling Pass, and then they consummated the relationship. That's a wildling marriage.

 

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