The Crow Calls the Raven Black, why I believe Blood Raven is not the Three Eyed Crow explained

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Let’s look at some of the big Bloodraven red flags… Not proof just things that jump out to me…

Brynden Rivers, Bloodraven, was one of the legitimized Targaryen “Great Bastards”. 

Descended from both the Targaryens and Blackwoods he is also in the interesting position of potentially inheriting the super special blood of both Valyrian Kings and First Men Kings. 

Also worth noting that both the Targaryens and Blackwoods are currently exiled from their “rightful” kingdoms (although the Blackwoods for much longer).

There is also the possibility that the Targaryen Dragons were poisoned by the maesters (who share Oldtown as the center of their organization with the Faith of the Seven), meanwhile the Blackwoods accuse the Brackens of poisoning their Weirwood (after they converted to the Faith of the Seven).

Now, the Old Gods are known to frown on a number of relatively specific behaviors which we know include: incest, kinslaying, violating the laws of hospitality, oathbreaking, and slavery.

Incest - Bloodraven slept with his half-sister Shiera Seastar.

Kinslaying – The Blackfyres (father and sons) upon the Redgrass field.

Violating the laws of Hospitality/Oathbreaking/Kinslaying – Killing the Blackfyre to whom he had promised safe passage to the Great Council. We don’t know a great deal about how the Great Council and Egg’s ascension to the throne really went down, but we do know he condemned Blood Raven to death for betraying the word of the Iron Throne. Also, we know Bloodraven defended himself, arguing that he sacrificed his honor for the good of the realm. There is no evidence that he intended to go to the wall, although he did choose this fate instead of death and traveled with Aemon Targaryen. 

I think it’s worth pointing out that if Egg had been passed over (for riding around the realm with Dunk, this was why Aemon was offered the crown) then Bloodraven could well have been a candidate for king. But more importantly, if Bloodraven really knows as much as many give him credit for he might be privy to some big legitimacy secrets… I’ve long believed that Tyrion, Jon, and Dany are all Targaryen bastards, I know that all of that is up for debate and many will push back on some or all of that (few agree with me on Dany), but if it’s true then Bloodraven, as a legitimized bastard might actually be the only living legitimate (legitimized) Targaryen. Anyway I’m sure that theory will cause more debate than I have already.

Slavery – Now I don’t believe I’ve seen any evidence of Bloodraven having or selling slaves in a classic sense. However, the powers that come with being a Greenseer may allow him to control another humans body, aka enslave it. Plus, he had the Raven’s Teeth, who some at least even followed him to the wall…

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV 

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. 

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

And then there is the odd Night’s King Story parallels, beyond just the binding of the brothers to his will (sounds like why the Old Gods hate Slavery), he ruled for 13 years (Bloodraven was Lord Commander for 13 years), he knew no fear and that was the fault in him (again seems a lot like Bloodraven, he tells Bran not to fear and this should not be confused as the same as Ned telling him to be Brave, in fact thte distinction seems glaringly important), and a woman was his downfall (Bloodraven has a whole love affair with Shiera that still needs more explaining, but may have led to his hate of Bittersteel and thus his downfall), not to mention the skin as pale as the moon. Then there is the darkness, by the light of day the Night’s King was just a man, but the night was his to rule… and then there is Bloodraven’s whole Darkness speech to Bran.

There he sat, listening to the hoarse whispers of his teacher. "Never fear the darkness, Bran." The lord's words were accompanied by a faint rustling of wood and leaf, a slight twisting of his head. "The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong."

Now I’m not saying anything here is proof, but I think there are a lot of parallels between Bloodraven and the Night’s King, now his name isn’t Brandon Stark, but it’s pretty close, and he has our little Bran right there… but the fact that he tells Bran not to fear the darkness along side the Night's King "knew no fear" and "the night was his to rule" are pretty damning especially given Ned's wise words:

Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" 

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him. 

I’m sure I raised more questions than I answered… 

[Bonkers]

There is a new video out that tackles the Raven Vs Crow topic regarding BR.  It is certainly not an idea I had realized could be possible before. 

Order of The Greenhand BloodRaven part 3.  They discuss various folklore that shares ideas.  It certainly appears to be a contrast GRRM has made between ravens and crows in his story.

I really like this topic you have started!

 

[Bonkers]

On 08/10/2016 at 3:42 AM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

We do? Where?

There are other CoTF in the cave in their own thrones don't forget.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 hours ago, Bonkers said:

There are other CoTF in the cave in their own thrones don't forget.

Yeah. This was a misunderstanding between @LiveFirstDieLater and myself but we got it cleared up as I recall.

Thanks for bumping this thread. It is a good one! 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

On 2/20/2017 at 4:19 AM, Bonkers said:

There is a new video out that tackles the Raven Vs Crow topic regarding BR.  It is certainly not an idea I had realized could be possible before. 

Order of The Greenhand BloodRaven part 3.  They discuss various folklore that shares ideas.  It certainly appears to be a contrast GRRM has made between ravens and crows in his story.

I really like this topic you have started!

 

So I watched the 3 vids in the series and first of all nice job to whomever put them together, clearly on the point that bloodraven is not the three eyed crow we agree.

However, it's interesting that we ended up with such different opinions of Bloodraven.

I think you give him way to much credit. Repeatedly you call him loyal, and you take him at his word that all he does is for the greater good. I see him as breaking every rule in the book (incest, kinslaying, breaking his oath, guest right, etc.), including fighting against the rightful king (Blackfyre). Also, I have to point out that saying that since Seastar slept with him he must have a redeeming quality is ridiculous... he's the most powerful man in the kingdom, sounds like exactly the type Seastar would let court her.

He is competent, on that we agree. But I can't bridge the gap between being an effective soldier and ruler (in all but name), and being "good". I also still have the sneaky suspicion that his goal in calling the great council was to officially take power (people forget, he was legitamised too!)

Of course it's an interesting debate because there isn't really enough evidence for either side to prove it's point, we just don't have that much to work with about his moral character.

The 3eC being evil/the great other is interesting... but I would dispute the whole reason for Hodor being afraid. The 3eC shows up to both Rickon and Bran and leads them into the Crypt to talk to their father's spirit. I'd suggest it's Ned's "presence" that scares Hodor. But I'll have to think about it more, like I said, interesting theory.

What about when the three eyed crow pecks at the stone chains on the winged wolf in Jojen's dream? Thoughts?

Anyway, this is one of my favorite topics in the series, glad it is resurfacing.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

I'm convinced! This is some excellent close reading. Very astute. 

Where Bloodraven stands, I am not sure... I have a feeling that he is not on the side of the Others. But the 3-eyed Crow being Bran's anima/higher self/future Bran, I am totally on board with. 

Thank you!

[Bonkers]

Have we mentioned The Order of the Greenhand's videos on this topic?  Fresh, great ideas, based in text - not show.  The Crow is most definitely NOT the raven!!!!!

[Bonkers]

Love you guys' ideas on this topic, love the thread!  We need more ideas like this!! 

[LynnS]

On 2016-10-06 at 11:07 AM, LmL said:

Doesn't this line settle it beyond dispute?

 

?

I am not sure that they are one in the same.  You have suggested that there is a malevolent presence in the wiernet separate from Bloodraven. What or whom is the last greenseer if past/present/future are one?     I've said before that I think (future) Jon Snow is the 3EC as identified by Patchface when he encounters Jon for the first time:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

They found Her Grace sewing by the fire, whilst her fool danced about to music only he could hear, the cowbells on his antlers clanging. "The crow, the crow," Patchface cried when he saw Jon. "Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Princess Shireen was curled up in a window seat, her hood drawn up to hide the worst of the greyscale that had disfigured her face.

 

Is Jon Snow the poor cousin to Bloodraven?

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

"The crow is the raven's poor cousin. They are both beggars in black, hated and misunderstood."

 

That Bran sees both the weirwood and the crow in the same dream suggests to me that they are two separate characters:
 

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A Clash of Kings - Bran II

"A prince should lie better than that." Osha laughed. "Well, your dreams are your business. Mine's in the kitchens, and I'd best be getting back before Gage starts to shouting and waving that big wooden spoon of his. By your leave, my prince."

 

She should never have talked about the wolf dreams, Bran thought as Hodor carried him up the steps to his bedchamber. He fought against sleep as long as he could, but in the end it took him as it always did. On this night he dreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords.

A Clash of Kings - Bran V

Jojen sat on Bran's bed. "Tell me what you dream."

He was scared, even then, but he had sworn to trust them, and a Stark of Winterfell keeps his sworn word. "There's different kinds," he said slowly. "There's the wolf dreams, those aren't so bad as the others. I run and hunt and kill squirrels. And there's dreams where the crow comes and tells me to fly. Sometimes the tree is in those dreams too, calling my name. That frightens me. But the worst dreams are when I fall." He looked down into the yard, feeling miserable. "I never used to fall before. When I climbed. I went everyplace, up on the roofs and along the walls, I used to feed the crows in the Burned Tower. Mother was afraid that I would fall but I knew I never would. Only I did, and now when I sleep I fall all the time."

 

In the end, it's Jon who must kill the boy to let the man be born; Jon who assists, advises and teaches Bran and Arya as the older brother. Jon rather than Robb or Sansa who is most concerned about Bran and Arya. 

Bran opened Jon's third eye in the weirBran dream and it's (future) Jon who must break Bran's chains and teach him to fly with a voice sharp as swords.  

[GloubieBoulga]

@LynnS, very interesting perspective about Jon. I didn't had seen it !  

To add some elements to your last argument : Jon doesn't advise or teaches only Bran or Arya, but in a kind of way it is also the case with Sansa and Rickon. 

For Rickon, there is ofr example what Jon demand to Tyrion in AGOT : 

Quote

" Rickon will ask when I'm coming home. Try to explain where I've gone, if you can. Tell him he can have all my things while I'm away, he'll like that." (Tyrion III, AGOT)

For Sansa, the link appears when she is in the Vale, under the identity of a bastard, and it is particulary strong when she is building the "snowed" Winterfell (the snow is even falling "ghostly"). The chapter before Sansa VII's (ASOS) is the chapter where Jon definitely refuses Winterfell and the legitimacy as Stark purposed by Stannis.

I wonder if what Jon is "teaching" (unconsciently) to others Stark children is to renounce to the Stark name and assuming to be a true bastard, perhaps as a condition for quit the childhood, growing and become an adult (and then live). It seems to me significant that the only Stark child who is dying (for the moment), is Robb, as truly heir of Eddard Stark and all the kings and lords in the North. In that perspective, if Rickon becomes the heir of Winterfell and the North throw the Manderly, it could be a bad thing for him 

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, GloubieBoulga said:

@LynnS, very interesting perspective about Jon. I didn't had seen it !  

To add some elements to your last argument : Jon doesn't advise or teaches only Bran or Arya, but in a kind of way it is also the case with Sansa and Rickon. 

For Rickon, there is ofr example what Jon demand to Tyrion in AGOT : 

For Sansa, the link appears when she is in the Vale, under the identity of a bastard, and it is particulary strong when she is building the "snowed" Winterfell (the snow is even falling "ghostly"). The chapter before Sansa VII's (ASOS) is the chapter where Jon definitely refuses Winterfell and the legitimacy as Stark purposed by Stannis.

I wonder if what Jon is "teaching" (unconsciently) to others Stark children is to renounce to the Stark name and assuming to be a true bastard, perhaps as a condition for quit the childhood, growing and become an adult (and then live). It seems to me significant that the only Stark child who is dying (for the moment), is Robb, as truly heir of Eddard Stark and all the kings and lords in the North. In that perspective, if Rickon becomes the heir of Winterfell and the North throw the Manderly, it could be a bad thing for him 

Hi Gloubie!

It makes sense to me that it is Jon who shows Bran what lies north and north and north because both of them will have to join forces to defeat that threat.  Jon who operates in the shadows and behinds the scenes, helping his siblings incognito:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

But he had not left the Wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father's son, and Robb's brother. The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen. Three times the old man had chosen, and three times he had chosen honor, but that was him. Even now, Jon could not decide whether the maester had stayed because he was weak and craven, or because he was strong and true. Yet he understood what the old man had meant, about the pain of choosing; he understood that all too well.

 

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father.

He remembered Robb as he had last seen him, standing in the yard with snow melting in his auburn hair. Jon would have to come to him in secret, disguised. He tried to imagine the look on Robb's face when he revealed himself. His brother would shake his head and smile, and he'd say … he'd say …

 

 Jon will do no less for Bran but he will have to come to him disguised (as the crow) and in secret.  Jon identifies as a man of the NW, a crow rather than a wolf.  It's Bran who identifies as the wolf.   Bran's common complaint is that the crow lied to him and all crows are liars: 
 

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A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"I've always known that Robb would be Lord of Winterfell."

Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. "A lord's one thing, a king's another." He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. "They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You'll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they'll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon . . . and I'll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it."

Jon drew himself up, taut as a bowstring. "And if it did trouble me, what might I do, bastard as I am?"

 

 

[Maester Crypt]

Just wanted to say great post with quotes. You obviously are quite interested in this aspect of ASOIAF, it is key to the story. All the information is there, only the translation needs to be understood and placed correctly. Just like the runic records found in Westeros, one must place faith in their translation and with that you may become a learned man of the Citadel or mayhaps a Crow circling for corn.