The Crow Calls the Raven Black, why I believe Blood Raven is not the Three Eyed Crow explained

[LiveFirstDieLater]

“The crow calls the raven black”

This cute twist on a classic expression (pot and kettle) is dropped as early as Game of Thrones, and used several times in the series, including in every book and the Dunk and Egg series.

  

"Ho," said Pyp. "Listen to the crow call the raven black. You're certain to be a ranger, Toad. They'll want you as far from the castle as they can. If Mance Rayder attacks, lift your visor and show your face, and he'll run off screaming."

 

 "You are a cruel man, to make the Grand Maester squirm so," the eunuch scolded. "The man cannot abide a secret."

"Is that a crow I hear, calling the raven black?

 

Pyat Pree's gifts will turn to dust in your hands, I warn you." He gave his camel a lick of his whip and sped away.

"The crow calls the raven black," muttered Ser Jorah in the Common Tongue of Westeros

 

"Littlefinger is a liar—"

"—and black as well, said the raven of the crow."

 

"Khaleesi, before you kneels Ser Barristan Selmy, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, who betrayed your House to serve the Usurper Robert Baratheon."

The old knight did not so much as blink. "The crow calls the raven black, and you speak of betrayal."

 

"You are welcome to try. Until such time you must mistrust them all . . . and a little mistrust is a good thing in a princess." Prince Doran sighed. "You disappoint me, Arianne."

"Said the crow to the raven. You have been disappointing me for years, Father." She had not meant to be so blunt with him, but the words came spilling out. There, now I have said it.

 

"Go," the Reader had urged, as the captains were bearing her uncle Euron down Nagga's hill to don his driftwood crown.

"Said the raven to the crow. Come with me. I need you to raise the men of Harlaw." Back then, she'd meant to fight.

 

"I suppose that means I'll have to take the throne, then. I would much rather be teaching you to fiddle."

"You're drunk." And the crow once called the raven black.

"Wonderfully drunk. Wine makes all things possible, Ser Duncan. You'd look a god in white, I think, but if the color does not suit you, perhaps you would prefer to be a lord?" Dunk laughed in his face. 

 

It works in the same way as the classic pot and kettle expression in all of these situations, however, it does seem to have an added association falsehood, if not in its meaning then by its placement.

 

It is also important to note that ravens and crows are different beasts in the world of the books. They play a prominent role as various icons in the series, but while similar I think that the distinction will end up being important.

 

From Tyrion’s dream after the Battle of the Blackwater:

 

He found himself outside the city, walking through a world without color. Ravens soared through a grey sky on wide black wings, while carrion crows rose from their feasts in furious clouds wherever he set his steps. White maggots burrowed through black corruption. 

 

Ravens and Crows are clearly different beasts, and a distinction is created by the George. Though both seem to be in attendance on the battlefields of man, or at least after.

 

“The heads never lacked for attendants. The carrion crows wheeled about the gatehouse in a raucous unkindness and quarreled upon the ramparts over every eye, screaming and cawing at each other and taking to the air whenever a sentry passed along the battlements. Sometimes the maester’s ravens joined the feast as well, flapping down from the rookery on wide black wings. When the ravens came the crows would scatter, only to return the moment the larger birds were gone.”

 CoK – Arya X

 

So not only are ravens and crows different birds, but they don’t seem to like each other, of course the crows seem to fight among themselves as well.

 

But we have met one Raven who, I believe, deserves to be treated differently: Mormont’s Raven.

 

“… and Ser Alliser’s a knight, highborn, anointed, with old friends at court, altogether harder to ignore than a glorified crow.”

 

“Crow.” Jon thought the raven sounded faintly indignant.

 

GoT – Jon 8

 

Unlike his fellow carrion eaters, this bird seems to prefer corn, as it so often says. Also, it is remarkably clever with its few words, it knows to burn the wight, calls Jon King, and tells Sam to leave Crasters “quick”… and that’s just a few examples out of many.  It seems pretty clear that someone knowledgeable is speaking through the bird, but the question is who, and if there is any significance to it asking repeatedly for “Corn”?

 

Many members of this forum, commonly associate/attribute Blood Raven (BR) with a number of seemingly supernatural events in the series.  Among them is appearing to Bran as a Three Eyed Crow, speaking through Mormont’s Raven, and even Jon’s finding Ghost in the snow of chapter one (and Ghosts later finding the dragon glass at the Fist of the First men.) I believe that this theory needs to be reevaluated as I do not believe that BR is the three-eyed crow, calling into question some of these other assumptions as well.

 

I am going to make the case here that the Three Eyed Crow (3eC), contrary to popular opinion, is not Blood Raven (BR) at all, in fact it may be Bran himself.

 

The obvious place to start is the first chapter of the first book in the series (after the prologue) which belongs to Bran… and while there are a number of great references I missed at first; including mentioning Mance Rayder, The Long Night, Rob saying: “The Others take his eyes”, and Eddard’s oft remembered “That is the only time a man can be brave” (when he’s afraid) and “the man who casts the sentence should swing the sword”, but I’m going to jump right to the very end:

 

“Can you hear it?”

 

Bran could hear the wind in the trees, the clatter of their hooves on the ironwood planks, the whimpering of his hungry pup, but Jon was listening to something else.

 Bran 1

 

Of course, Jon rides back and finds Ghost in the snow. It is worth remembering that Ghost is notorious for being silent, unlike the other dire wolves…

 

But he is the one pup who had already opened his eyes… or I would suggest had his eyes opened (as someone reaching out to Jon through Ghost seems to make sense to me)… either way the image of Bran seeming to just hear the wind while Jon clearly hears something else which indicates there is a silent white wolf pup hiding in the snow is noteworthy… 

 

It seems that the most common explanation is that it is Blood Raven who sent the dire wolves and who reached out to Jon to make sure he finds Ghost. Of course, I’m suggesting otherwise, or at least questioning this assumption. After all we seem to have an example of Bran reaching out to Jon through Ghost later in the series. Meanwhile, never once have we any real evidence of Blood Raven speaking through trees or beasts using his greenseer powers, and yet he is often credited with this ability.

  

In Bran’s second chapter he sets out to say his farewells to the people of Winterfell, planning on going south, and he had been eager to get on with his great adventure:

 

His father had told him to say his farewells today, but it was no good… [blah blah blah]

 

But it was no good. He had gone to the stable first, and seen his pony there in its stall, except it wasn't his pony anymore, he was getting a real horse and leaving the pony behind, and all of a sudden Bran just wanted to sit down and cry. He turned and ran off before Hodor and the other stableboys could see the tears in his eyes. That was the end of his farewells. Instead Bran spent the morning alone in the godswood, trying to teach his wolf to fetch a stick, and failing.

…

He raced across the godswood, taking the long way around to avoid the pool where the heart tree grew. The heart tree had always frightened him; trees ought not have eyes, Bran thought, or leaves that looked like hands. His wolf came sprinting at his heels. "You stay here," he told him at the base of the sentinel tree near the armory wall. "Lie down. That's right. Now stay—"

 

The wolf did as he was told. Bran scratched him behind the ears, then turned away, jumped, grabbed a low branch, and pulled himself up. He was halfway up the tree, moving easily from limb to limb, when the wolf got to his feet and began to howl.

…

Somewhere off in the distance, a wolf was howling. Crows circled the broken tower, waiting for corn.

 

Bran 2

 

Ok, so above you have some selected quotes from the chapter leading up to Bran’s fall.

 

The first paragraph is mostly a reminder of something I had overlooked on my first read, Bran had every intention of saying goodbye to his friends in Winterfell since he was supposed to be going south the next day.

 

It is perfectly reasonable that at this point he was feeling upset about leaving and so ran off to be by himself.  But on a repeat read I have to wonder if there isn’t something slightly more sinister, or at least supernatural, going on…

 

The sudden change in mood along with the otherwise completely in context “wasn’t his pony anymore” are easy to write off, but looking back now that we know there is a grizzled old greenseer out there who can see through the eyes of trees and animals, these sorts of things make one do a double take, and a triple take if we then consider that Bran may be able to see/speak back through time.

 

Anyway, the next point here is that Bran has always been frightened of the Weirwood. This is something that I certainly didn’t pick up on the first time around,“trees ought not have eyes”.

 

Summer seems to know that something bad is going to happen and starts to howl… Almost like he’s trying to warn Bran…

 

This forces me to ask why BR, who was presumably aware of what was going on, didn’t try and warn Bran?  Bran is literally in front of the heart tree’s eyes, and there are plenty of crows circling…

 

Either, he was unable to help, or he choose not to help, for whatever reason(s) be they good, bad or ugly.

 

If Blood Raven was unable to help, because he couldn’t warn Bran, then we have to assume that all those other odd events (like Mormont’s raven, or the wind that pointed Jon to Ghost) were not BR either.

 

Probably the more popular reasoning would be that BR “knows” Bran has to fall to become the green seer he is destined to be… or for the suspicious among you, that he needs Bran to fall because that begins him on the road that ends up with Bran coming to BR’s lair… the only real difference being motive, good/evil and what he intends Bran to become from here on out.

 

I would suggest that this argument that the future necessitates Bran falling so he can “fulfill his destiny” and reach his full green seer potential could still be true if it is Bran himself, able to reach back through the weirwoods and impact the past… but clearly this is just speculation without enough information to make a real conclusion…
 

Ok, now we finally get to Bran’s falling and the weird three eyed crow (3eC) dream, notice however that at first the crow doesn’t seem to have three eyes, it’s just a crow:

 

Fly, a voice whispered in the darkness, but Bran did not know how to fly, so all he could do was fall.

…

You always woke up in the instant before you hit the ground.

And if you don't? the voice asked.

The ground was closer now, still far far away, a thousand miles away, but closer than it had been. It was cold here in the darkness. There was no sun, no stars, only the ground below coming up to smash him, and the grey mists, and the whispering voice. He wanted to cry.

…

Ok so this whole chapter is basically an odd falling dream sequence, but maybe the strangest thing is that, unlike every other line of dialogue, there are no quotes around the three eyed crow’s words. Even Bran’s own words, and the remembered words of his father and Jaime get quotes.

 

Any time I see the sun and stars, or in this case darkness devoid of said celestial bodies, mentioned my ears perk up… Ned has a similar thought about the sun and moon while in the black cells, and of course there is BR’s hollow hill… where BR and then Bran sit in the darkness…

…

Not cry. Fly.

"I can't fly," Bran said. "I can't, I can't . . . "

How do you know? Have you ever tried?

The voice was high and thin. Bran looked around to see where it was coming from. A crow was spiraling down with him, just out of reach, following him as he fell. "Help me," he said.

I'm trying, the crow replied. Say, got any corn?

Bran reached into his pocket as the darkness spun dizzily around him. When he pulled his hand out, golden kernels slid from between his fingers into the air. They fell with him.

The crow landed on his hand and began to eat.

"Are you really a crow?" Bran asked.

Are you really falling? the crow asked back.

"It's just a dream," Bran said.

Is it? asked the crow.

"I'll wake up when I hit the ground," Bran told the bird.

You'll die when you hit the ground, the crow said. It went back to eating corn.

…

So the Crow is "just out of reach" asks for corn, and then eats it after perching on Bran's hand. You’ll notice there is no mention of a third eye at this point, and there is the odd exchange where Bran asks if it is really a crow.  Of course the crow doesn’t really answer, but we can be fairly certain at this point that this isn’t “just” a dream, or “just” a crow…

 

 Also, the corn seems to be a sort of offering… or sacrifice? The idea of giving one’s “seed” is used in the Nights King story as well, and when Bran finally awakens it seems he can no longer have kids… For now, I’ll just leave it at potentially related, along with the fact that Mormont’s crow is always asking for corn, and Bran’s being fed Weirwood seed paste while in BR’s Lair.

…

I told you, the answer is flying, not crying. How hard can it be? I'm doing it. The crow took to the air and flapped around Bran's hand.

"You have wings," Bran pointed out.

Maybe you do too.

Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. "The things I do for love," it said.

…

There are different kinds of wings? Wings not on one’s shoulders or wings not made out of feathers… ok so putting dragons and their leathery wings aside for a minute… Even if it is reminiscent of Dany’s wake the dragon dream, where wings spring out of her back… It could just be metaphorical wings, like shapeshifting or greensight. In that case I’d like to say that the 3eC might be so confident in Bran’s ability to fly because it is, in fact, Bran himself.

  

Also, why is Bran so skinny? My first reaction is that he’s been wasting away in a bed unconscious, but crows are awfully skinny too... And the “How hard can it be? I’m doing it” is especially cute if this is Bran reaching out to himself through the birds.

 

He didn't always look like this, so he tries to remember what happened before this... and there is Jaime giving him a push.

…
Bran screamed.

The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran's shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone.

…

So it seems that by pecking Bran the crow is able to take away his memory… this is very strange, and important, since it’s not the last peck.

 

Of course, “you do not need it now” sort of implies he might need it later…And that the 3eC knows something about his future.

…

Bran was falling faster than ever. The grey mists howled around him as he plunged toward the earth below. "What are you doing to me?" he asked the crow, tearful.

Teaching you how to fly.

"I can't fly!"

You're flying right now.

"I'm falling!"

Every flight begins with a fall, the crow said. Look down.

 "I'm afraid . . . "

LOOK DOWN!

Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it.

…                                                                                                                         

So the crow says he is teaching Bran to fly, then in fact that he is already flying! So if we are sticking with flying being a metaphor for greensight or shapeshifting, or some combination of supernatural powers, then it looks like this is Bran’s awakening, also if Bran is the 3eC it would have the additional meaning because the 3eC is flying.

  

Bran forgets to be afraid and sees everyone! Metaphorically this would seem to be the moment when his fall becomes a flight…

…

 At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

…

Besides the ominous chill wind and the fact that even with the wind the pool is still... creepy… Bran sees his family members and the people he knew in Winterfell, but the Heart Tree seems to see him. And seems to see him only after he LOOKS DOWN, or uses greensight himself.

 

Which is odd, to say the least. I think this is Blood Raven watching him fall, as he later says he was watching… And I would ask those that still think BR is the three eyed crow, who’s looking out of the tree then? (Also note that no third eye has been mentioned on the crow yet).

…

He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

…

In this trippy nightmare where Bran has been freaked out and crying, he finally forgets to be afraid and all of a sudden he can see everything, of course the heart tree can see him too.  This seems to be the moment of Bran’s awakening to the Greensight, or at least a pivotal moment in his "fall".  Of course it isn’t long before he is afraid and crying again.

 

This time it is cause by whatever he sees in the Heart of Winter, which he clearly doesn’t understand (and we the readers would all desperately like to see ourselves), but the Crow’s answer is Brandon Stark's own house words “Winter Is Coming”.

…

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" he heard his own voice saying, small and far away.

And his father's voice replied to him. "That is the only time a man can be brave."

…

 

Wait now the crow has three eyes? This is the first time Bran remarks that the crow has three eyes, almost at the end of the dream sequence…

 

I suspect the crow didn’t have three eyes before this point… Bran himself just learned some terrible knowledge about why he must live when he looked into the Heart of Winter and, I would suggest, opened his own “third eye”. Meaning the appearance of a third eye on the crow at the same time is likely not a coincidence.

 

It seems to be implied that this is the point where other “dreamers” have failed, and died.

 

Fly or die. It is also unclear to me if this is in fact a description of the “heart of winter”, but I’m inclined to believe it is, and I suspect Bran saw himself there.

 

Bran recalls Ned’s great line about fear and bravery, continuing the rollercoaster ride for fear in this chapter… but hold all these thoughts as I want to come back to this quote presently, once we have more information and quotes to compare it to.

…

Now, Bran, the crow urged. Choose. Fly or die.

Death reached for him, screaming.

Bran spread his arms and flew.

Wings unseen drank the wind and filled and pulled him upward. The terrible needles of ice receded below him. The sky opened up above. Bran soared. It was better than climbing. It was better than anything. The world grew small beneath him.

"I'm flying!" he cried out in delight.

I've noticed, said the three-eyed crow. It took to the air, flapping its wings in his face, slowing him, blinding him. He faltered in the air as its pinions beat against his cheeks. Its beak stabbed at him fiercely, and Bran felt a sudden blinding pain in the middle of his forehead, between his eyes.

"What are you doing?" he shrieked.

The crow opened its beak and cawed at him, a shrill scream of fear, and the grey mists shuddered and swirled around him and ripped away like a veil, and he saw that the crow was really a woman…

 

Bran awakens to name his wolf Summer.

 

But first, right at the end Bran flew for a moment, then the crow slows him, blinds him, and pecks right where Bran’s own third eye would be… Bran shrieks, the crow gives a shrill scream of fear (awfully similar sounding) that on first read I just thought was the woman… But could it have been Bran himself screaming and scaring her?

The veil is ripped away after the scream and after the blinding...

Earlier in the chapter the crows peck takes away a memory, one Bran still can't remember when he awakes. Did the crow pecking Bran where his third eye would be take something away too?

Was it for the same reason, because he doesn’t need it, yet? Because at the end of the fall he really seems to take off flying, and if this is analogous to greensight then upon waking it seems he has quite the setback, and is only by the end of Dance approaching this level of ability again.

Now there is lots more, but since I’ve covered so little and written so much I just want to touch on a little bit more and hopefully I’ll be able to follow this up with more analysis later.

It was the Three Eyed Crow who led Bran to the Crypts in his dream when Ned died…

Maester Luwin broke off, startled. When Shaggydog bounded to his feet and added his voice to his brother's, dread clutched at Bran's heart. "It's coming," he whispered, with the certainty of despair. He had known it since last night, he realized, since the crow had led him down into the crypts to say farewell. He had known it, but he had not believed. He had wanted Maester Luwin to be right. The crow, he thought, the three-eyed crow …

Bran VII Game

I don’t think this fits with the idea of BR being the 3eC at all, after all it is the Starks' place and there are repeated references to others not being welcome (pun intended?)

Hodor knew Bran's favorite place, so he took him to the edge of the pool beneath the great spread of the heart tree, where Lord Eddard used to kneel to pray. Ripples were running across the surface of the water when they arrived, making the reflection of the weirwood shimmer and dance. There was no wind, though. For an instant Bran was baffled.

... (it was Osha swimming that made the ripples, but it’s an odd reverse of Bran’s dream where the pool is still despite the wind)

She should never have talked about the wolf dreams, Bran thought as Hodor carried him up the steps to his bedchamber. He fought against sleep as long as he could, but in the end it took him as it always did. On this night hedreamed of the weirwood. It was looking at him with its deep red eyes, calling to him with its twisted wooden mouth, and from its pale branches the three-eyed crow came flapping, pecking at his face and crying his name in a voice as sharp as swords.

Bran II Clash

Here we have an example of Bran dreaming of the weirwood and the 3eC as once again being separate entities, not only that the crow is pecking at him again, and if my speculation is correct and that’s the bird’s way of taking memories/powers away from Bran then it seems to be trying to interfere with the Weirwoods speech… Worth noting that Bran is no longer scared of the Weirwood, in fact, at it’s foot is now his favorite place. This could be him just growing up, or perhaps it’s another example of the 3eC’s impact on his feelings of fear (like the Jaime memory).

The living have no place at the feasts of the dead. It tore the heart from Sam to hold his silence then. Bran's not dead, Jon, he wanted to stay. He's with friends, and they're going north on a giant elk to find a three-eyed crow in the depths of the haunted forest. It sounded so mad that there were times Sam Tarly thought he must have dreamt it all, conjured it whole from fever and fear and hunger . . . but he would have blurted it out anyway, if he had not given his word.

Three times he had sworn to keep the secret; once to Bran himself, once to that strange boy Jojen Reed, and last of all to Coldhands. "The world believes the boy is dead," his rescuer had said as they parted. "Let his bones lie undisturbed. We want no seekers coming after us. Swear it, Samwell of the Night's Watch. Swear it for the life you owe me."

Sam IV Storm

Here we have Sam referencing the Three Eyed Crow and Coldhands being really creepy.

First, I want to note that besides Bran only Jojen has actually seen the Three Eyed Crow (maybe Rikon too being led to the crypt when Ned dies, but I’m trying to conserve a little space, if you wonder why just look up what a Shaggy Dog Story is.)

Second, Coldhands says some interesting, creepy, things which could potentially have great double meanings. That, and remember the “bones of a thousand other dreamers” from Bran’s falling Dream… I’ll get there in a moment after dealing with Jojen first.

Jojen's eyes were the color of moss, and sometimes when he looked at you he seemed to be seeing something else. Like now. "I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."

 Jojen dreams of the winged wolf (who he declares is Bran) being chained up and the Three Eyed Crow being unable to free him. However, I would suggest that just like his dream of the sea swallowing Winterfell, he doesn't correctly interpret the dream. Because when the sea (Theon) takes Winterfell this is going on with Summer:

He ran toward the sound, his brother racing beside him. The stone dens rose before them, walls slick and wet. He bared his teeth, but the man-rock took no notice. A gate loomed up, a black iron snake coiled tight about bar and post. When he crashed against it, the gate shuddered and the snake clanked and slithered and held. Through the bars he could look down the long stone burrow that ran between the walls to the stony field beyond, but there was no way through. He could force his muzzle between the bars, but no more. Many a time his brother had tried to crack the black bones of the gate between his teeth, but they would not break. They had tried to dig under, but there were great flat stones beneath, half-covered by earth and blown leaves.

Snarling, he paced back and forth in front of the gate, then threw himself at it once more. It moved a little and slammed him back. Locked, something whispered. Chained. The voice he did not hear, the scent without a smell. The other ways were closed as well. Where doors opened in the walls of man-rock, the wood was thick and strong. There was no way out.

Summer is chained inside the Godswood and Bran attempts to free him unsuccessfully. Then afterwords:

"Winter is coming." Just saying it made Bran feel cold.

Jojen gave a solemn nod. "I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth by chains of stone, and came to Winterfell to free him. The chains are off you now, yet still you do not fly."

"Then you teach me." Bran still feared the three-eyed crow who haunted his dreams sometimes, pecking endlessly at the skin between his eyes and telling him to fly. "You're a greenseer."

Once Summer is free we have Jojen declaring the chains are off, literally Bran and Summer are now free to leave Winterfell. 

So I would propose that in Jojen's dream Summer is the winged wolf, while Bran is the Three Eyed Crow.

Next let's talk about Cold Hands, as I pointed out above we're quickly covering everyone who has indicated knowledge of the Three Eyed Crow, but yet again what information we do get is quite cryptic...

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"

"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.

"A monster," Bran said.

The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

"Yours," the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer's song of "Yours, yours, yours."

"Jojen, did you dream this?" Meera asked her brother. "Who is he?

 

What is he? What do we do now?"

 

"We go with the ranger," said Jojen. "We have come too far to turn back now, Meera. We would never make it back to the Wall alive. We go with Bran's monster, or we die."

 

So here we have Cold Hands asked point blank who the Three Eyed Crow is, his response is usually interpreted as meaning Blood Raven, but this description seems to fit Bran just as well, especially since Bran presumably comes after Blood Raven (so how could Blood Raven be the "last")... 

Cold Hands even says "your monster, Brandon Stark", which Jojen take to mean Cold Hands is the monster (but as I tried to point out above Jojen isnt very good at interpreting things). However, read it again, it sure seems to me that Cold Hands is talking about the Three Eyed Crow still...

Above I said I’d get back to this quote from the falling dream (bolded differently):

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" he heard his own voice saying, small and far away.

And his father's voice replied to him. "That is the only time a man can be brave."

Now let’s compare that to the very beginning of Bran’s second Dance chapter (Chapter 13, for the record!).

Something about the way the raven screamed sent a shiver running up Bran’s spine. I am almost a man grown, he had to remind himself. I have to be brave now.

But the air was sharp and cold and full of fear. Even Summer was afraid. The fur on his neck was bristling.  Shadows stretched against the hillside, black and hungry.  All the trees were bowed and twisted by the weight of ice they carried. Some hardly looked like trees at all. Buried from root to crown in frozen snow, they on the hill like giants, monstrous and misshapen creatures hunched against the icy wind.

So, if it isn’t immediately apparent, I think there are too many parallels here to be a coincidence.

The chapter starts with the raven’s scream, and spine reference, which makes me think of Bran’s fall right away.  Then we have Bran repeating to himself how even if he is afraid he needs to be brave, just like Ned’s oft remembered quote. 

“Even Summer was afraid”, hit me over the head like a ton of bricks once I realized that the following description of the snow and ice covered trees on the hollow hill that is Blood Raven’s Lair matches up ridiculously well with what Bran saw from on high in the falling dream.

Snow, check, cold, check, death (literally wights beneath the snow), check, frozen wasteland, check, and jagged blue white spires of ice (the trees covered from root to crown in frozen snow, not even just snow, frozen snow=ice) CHECK.

Of course these aren’t just trees… they are weirwoods.

The heart tree at Winterfell had roots as thick around as a giant’s legs, but these were even thicker. And Bran had never seen so many of them. There must be a whole grove of weirwoods growing up above us.

And there are Bones of course, also fitting with Bran's falling dream "the bones of a thousand other dreamers":

"Bones," said Bran. "It's bones." The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes.

Lots of bones… animals, people, giants, and children… could these be the bones of a thousand other dreamers? Because this is looking more and more like the place from Bran’s dream.

And just pointing out that ravens have black eyes… except for BR of course who has a single red eye…

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words."Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

This is the quote that first made me doubt… Bran also notices that BR has the wrong number of eyes, one, (and it’s red), and asks BR, straight up, if he is the 3eC…

But, BR thinks he means a man of the Night’s Watch (which is also exactly how Sam reacted when asked the same question). If BR really has been appearing as the 3eC all this time it doesn’t make sense that he wouldn’t know what Bran is talking about.  Also, while he says he has been many things, and blah blah blah, they are all passive verbs: BR saw, BR watched, BR was part of… never says he spoke, or pecked! “I was watching when you fell” doesn’t sound like the 3eC at all, it sounds like the heart tree in Winterfell that was watching Bran “knowingly” in his falling dream, and at times seems to try to speak in Bran’s dreams but never successfully communicates (again I'm not convinced Blood Raven can speak through dreams the same way Bran can).

Meera asks Leaf about it as well:

"The three-eyed crow?" asked Meera.

"The greenseer." And with that she was off, and they had no choice but to follow. Meera helped Bran back up onto Hodor's back, though his basket was half-crushed and wet from melting snow. Then she slipped an arm around her brother and shouldered him back onto his feet once more. His eyes opened. "What?" he said. "Meera? Where are we?" When he saw the fire, he smiled. "I had the strangest dream."

But gets an equally unsatisfying answer, again as if she misunderstands or is trying to be misleading...

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

Here Bran is still frightened by BR, as he was once frightened by the weirwood tree in Winterfell, and “pretends” it is the 3eC talking to him… But its not, it’s BR, a grisly talking corpse… Now this could be easily taken as Bran just having trouble reconciling the two, but given the rest of the text I think it is another clear indication that Blood Raven is/was/won’t be the three eyed crow.

Blood Raven's lair sure seems remarkably similar to what Bran saw in his falling dream as well, which ended, if you'll remember, with some terrible knowledge...

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. The days marched past, one after the other, each shorter than the one before. The nights grew longer. No sunlight ever reached the caves beneath the hill. No moonlight ever touched those stony halls. Even the stars were strangers there.Those things belonged to the world above, where time ran in its iron circles, day to night to day to night to day.

They are in the darkness under the grove. No sun, no stars, and that moon we keep hearing about can only be seen outside. They are safe from the world above, both in winter, and presumably in summer. We know the dead cannot enter, but nothing says they can’t be controlled from within. Or released upon the world while those within remain safe.

“Iron circles” I just thought was interesting; I remember Old Nan saying others hated iron, and of course they come during the long night, when daylight does not come.

Leaf touched his hand. "The trees will teach you. The trees remember." He raised a hand, and the other singers began to move about the cavern, extinguishing the torches one by one. The darkness thickened and crept toward them.

"Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see.

Notice that the darkness closes in before the 3eC speaks… and notice that this time it get quotations…

More importantly, it tells Bran to look out of the trees on the hill, the ones frozen in ice…

…

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

"But," said Bran, "he heard me."

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.

Ok, a lot here.

Bran doesn’t know how to look, so he cannot see, or tell the 3eC what he saw from the frozen trees on the hill. It doesn’t help that he ended up looking out from the eyes of the Weirwood in Winterfell. Which doesn't seem to be what the Three Eyed Crow told him to do.

And Again here we get a pretty explicit explanation that Blood Raven seem unable to speak to people through the trees, or maybe through dreams at all… He certainly can’t talk to people in the past.  It is unclear to me if these same rules apply to Bran, potentially about speaking through dreams and into the past... but it's seeming likely to me that Bran's powers exceed those of Blood Raven. In fact it seems like we may have a number of examples where Bran did speak through Weirwoods/dreams...

Finally, Since I've rambled a lot here, and while there are a few other things I could reference and quote, this whole line of thinking would be incomplete without including my fear of the Children:

And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air. "Where are the rest of you?" Bran asked Leaf, once.

"Gone down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

First, the deer analogy sounds like a really nice way to say eat everything. But she is saying that they don’t have great numbers like the deer, you know who does, men. The elder races’ time is ending, and the direwolves will outlast them all, in the world men have made… the deer have taken over the forrest!

Soon there will be no wolves left to cull the herd…  

And while I think many see the Children of the Forrest as being much like the Elves of Tolkein, content to sail off quietly into the sunset when their age is over, I'm not convinced the Children are willing to go so quietly.

If you take my interpretation of the analogy to its end, it would seem like the Children might feel a duty to slaughter some deer… I mean men.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Children, and probably Blood Raven himself are in league with and/or responsible for the return of the Others.

Come the end of the series could you see Bran being willing to sacrifice his own future, his dreams of knighthood, to disappear quietly off into to cold north and, well, save the world... because to me that sounds like a hero, and not from some children's tale. Bran had the First Chapter of the series, I wouldn't be surprised if he had the last, or even if it ended with, "the things I do for love."

Ahhh, and now I've concluded my wild tinfoil speculation for the day, I hope you enjoyed it... Many thanks to everyone on this forum for the enjoyment I get from our discussions and debates...

I know this has been rambling on, and I'm sure it was hard to follow, but am I the only one who thinks Blood Raven is not the Three Eyed Crow?

[Macgregor of the North]

Well laid out, you have been teasing us with it for a while and it's good to see it in all its finery. 

Im curious. Do you honestly believe that GRRM's purpose for BR throughout his whole story from way back to his Novella days is to do bad to the realm by finally siding with the Others?. 

I really do struggle with that.

His purpose has to be something big I thought,  but In your scenario he is rendered somewhat pointless. If he isn't the 3EC and Bran never needed him because he was the 3EC and powerful enough to help guide himself, then what's BR's point. There are singers in the cave who can teach Bran things, Leaf even says the trees will teach him. So what's BR's point at all?.

Also, if they did kill Jojen, it's not like BR was important for that to happen, the singers made the paste. In all this it just seems you have made one of the coolest characters in the whole series rather pointless, just sitting their rotting.

Except if his point is to help cover the whole world in a wintery darkness so an icy race of beings can rule over it. 

But I just can't swallow that, I just don't feel it with BR.

Like I said though, it reads very very well but it leaves BR quite pointless don't you think? unless he is an instrument of the Others, which I'm not personally convinced he is.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

I know we talked about this in other threads but I gotta ask again.

Why would Bran Stark appear as a crow to himself? Why that image? 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I know we talked about this in other threads but I gotta ask again.

Why would Bran Stark appear as a crow to himself? Why that image? 

Because that's what he saw as he fell from the tower... Also it begs the question why would Blood RAVEN appear as a crow? And especially with three eyes, if he gets an "extra" shouldn't it be two eyes?(like oh I don't know a heart tree?)

6 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Well laid out, you have been teasing us with it for a while and it's good to see it in all its finery. 

Im curious. Do you honestly believe that GRRM's purpose for BR throughout his whole story from way back to his Novella days is to do bad to the realm by finally siding with the Others?. 

I really do struggle with that.

His purpose has to be something big I thought,  but In your scenario he is rendered somewhat pointless. If he isn't the 3EC and Bran never needed him because he was the 3EC and powerful enough to help guide himself, then what's BR's point. There are singers in the cave who can teach Bran things, Leaf even says the trees will teach him. So what's BR's point at all?.

Also, if they did kill Jojen, it's not like BR was important for that to happen, the singers made the paste. In all this it just seems you have made one of the coolest characters in the whole series rather pointless, just sitting their rotting.

Except if his point is to help cover the whole world in a wintery darkness so an icy race of beings can rule over it. 

But I just can't swallow that, I just don't feel it with BR.

Like I said though, it reads very very well but it leaves BR quite pointless don't you think? unless he is an instrument of the Others, which I'm not personally convinced he is.

 

Also, thanks for the compliment, I have a very hard time trying to put my thoughts into any sort of coherent writing...

I can understand that, but BR is still playing a crucial role in Bran's development even if he only watched in the dreams and wasn't the three eyed crow (of course I only address the books but in the show they changed his name to the three eyed raven).

But if Bran has the ability to reach back in time, even if it's only words on the wind... The rustle of leaves... He could still, show Jon the Wolves, encourage Book Bran to climb the tower he day he's thrown instead of making his fairwells, and to make sure Bran has the will to travel North, to sacrifice his dreams and family and future for the sake of mankind... And everyone he loves.

Blood Raven on the other hand I think is going to try and take Bran's body, much the same way we see foreshadowed by Varamyr Sixskins... The hour is late, BR's hour, I think he's looking to live on in the body of another powerful green seer... The re are lots of play on words you can make with "the last greenseer", is it the final greeneer, the previous greenseer, is he the last because he body snatches the next one each time? (Probably worth including a post about the similarities between BRs lair and the house of the undying here, since it's remarkable the parallels, and the Undying tried to eat/capture/keep Dany in the end).

of course we don't have enough real information and I'm speculating...

finally we get to motive, I've found hat for the most part around here it seems people see BloodRaven in a very favorable light... I always found that interesting since I always got a different feel. Even when we meet him in Dunk and Egg he appears at best mercilous and to me rather heartless. What little we know of his history suggests he violated about every rule the Old Gods hold dear, and egg exiled him for it. Then he becomes Lord Commander, but leaves his post before his death! He even says he was "once" a crow. Now his Targaryen family (the brother he loved) has been killed and exiled. Meanwhile, like Aemon he's been sitting in the north freezing and watching. Until we hear more it sure seems to me he has every motive to be vengeful and bitter.

But again I certainly can't provide hard proof, in fact maybe the most telling thing is the phrasing of he writing... It just always seems like GRRM is leaving himself these intentional lines which one day, if he ever finishes, I expect to reread with irony

[Greywater-Watch]

The Citadel, So Spake Martin, May 29, 2016; Balticon Report

GRRM to the conference attendant: [...] That is when he laughed and said [...] "Bloodraven is half a tree,"

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

The Citadel, So Spake Martin, May 29, 2016; Balticon Report

GRRM to the conference attendant: [...] That is when he laughed and said [...] "Bloodraven is half a tree,"

I'm not sure I see where you're going with this?

[Lord Vance II]

I applaud the effort and detail, but can't get on board with the idea. BR isn't a literal three-eyed crow, but I only think this is an issue for Bran because he's a kid who was expecting the literal thing. A three-eyed crow is creepy, but not as creepy as a living tree-corpse coming to you in dreams. 

If the 3eC is future Bran talking to present Bran, why is he still lead to the "bad guy" and immediately become his apprentice? Unless its like a Sith lord, rule-of-2, learn-then-kill situation. 

I do like the comparison between Bran's falling dream and BR's Weirwood Throne. And agree that Bran may be able to do the things BR cannot.

I just can't get on board with the CotF secretly plotting with the Others to destroy humanity. Or see why Bloodraven would be on board with the plan. 

13 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them.

This sounds like they are set for low population no matter what. If they were small in number before humans came, it doesn't make sense that suddenly if the humans were gone whatever natural growth inhibitor they have would disappear. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

I applaud the effort and detail, but can't get on board with the idea. BR isn't a literal three-eyed crow, but I only think this is an issue for Bran because he's a kid who was expecting the literal thing. A three-eyed crow is creepy, but not as creepy as a living tree-corpse coming to you in dreams. 

If the 3eC is future Bran talking to present Bran, why is he still lead to the "bad guy" and immediately become his apprentice? Unless its like a Sith lord, rule-of-2, learn-then-kill situation. 

I do like the comparison between Bran's falling dream and BR's Weirwood Throne. And agree that Bran may be able to do the things BR cannot.

I just can't get on board with the CotF secretly plotting with the Others to destroy humanity. Or see why Bloodraven would be on board with the plan. 

This sounds like they are set for low population no matter what. If they were small in number before humans came, it doesn't make sense that suddenly if the humans were gone whatever natural growth inhibitor they have would disappear. 

Thanks, I tried...

a creepy tree does come to Bran's dreams...

i don't want to go too far down into the time loop thing, but basically we are reading the results of actions our Bran is going to take which will effect the past... So it's a self fulfilling prophesy, and sending himself North of his destiny is to kill/stop Blood Raven that could make sense, or even if it is just to go and learn and grow his powers which will become "necessary".

Ya at least I hope people see the falling dream similarities to BRs lair... It seems laid too thick to be made up in my head, but maybe I've just spent to much time looking at this series.(definitely too much time)

The deer analogy is that the children have small numbers so they don't over run the world...

Men don't have small numbers, they are over running the world (because there are no wolves to cull the heard)... It's the sort of logic that a Child might use to excuse mass murder (a version of the greater good argument, just mankind isn't the greater good)... 

It's a sort of ends justify the means argument I could see fitting with BloodRaven too

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Also, worth pointing out that good and bad are relative... I mean an everlasting Night sounds shitty, but so does fire and blood... So I'm not convinced the others are any more evil than the dragons... But "good" lies somewhere in that grey area between approximating a balance...

Im also not convinced that all the Children of the Forrest are necessarily on the same side any more than all Mankind is united... I'd be very interested to get a Pov out on the Isle of Faces

[Macgregor of the North]

39 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Because that's what he saw as he fell from the tower... Also it begs the question why would Blood RAVEN appear as a crow? And especially with three eyes, if he gets an "extra" shouldn't it be two eyes?(like oh I don't know a heart tree?)

I do see where your coming from, I know there were crows circling the tower when Jaime flings Bran, although its never said explicitly thats the last thing Bran saw, there is also a wolf howling too.

But is this proof that Bran is appearing as a crow to guide himself? 

And BR as a crow and a tree could just be what Brans psyche constructs him as when he tries to reach out to Bran no? BR is actually a crow too you know. The leader o the crows for a time infact.

Like ive said before to you im open to this one and will wait for the books to confirm but im not quite sold.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I do see where your coming from, I know there were crows circling the tower when Jaime flings Bran, although its never said explicitly thats the last thing Bran saw, there is also a wolf howling too.

But is this proof that Bran is appearing as a crow to guide himself? 

And BR as a crow and a tree could just be what Brans psyche constructs him as when he tries to reach out to Bran no? BR is actually a crow too you know. The leader o the crows for a time infact.

Like ive said before to you im open to this one and will wait for the books to confirm but im not quite sold.

Oh I hear you, there isn't any hard proof yet, as you say we NEED more books.

 

But worth noting that even Blood Raven doesn't claim to still be a crow (brother of the nights watch)...

"Once"

Black of garb and black of blood...

and he's still wearing the clothing... But seemingly has abandoned his post

 

[Macgregor of the North]

43 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

What little we know of his history suggests he violated about every rule the Old Gods hold dear, and egg exiled him for it.

No, we have nothing that hints at Egg sending him to the wall for violating old gods rules.

For all we know BR wanted to go to the wall after his own third eye properly and fully opened in the red keeps dark cells and he recieved a vision of his future purpose. Egg may have even knew about it if it was indeed a plan of BR's.

We only have speculation on this i agree but Egg never sent him to the wall for violating old gods rules.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Just now, Macgregor of the North said:

No, we have nothing that hints at Egg sending him to the wall for violating old gods rules.

For all we know BR wanted to go to the wall after his own third eye properly and fully opened in the red keeps dark cells and he recieved a vision of his future purpose. Egg may have even knew about it if it was indeed a plan of BR's.

We only have speculation on this i agree but Egg never sent him to the wall for violating old gods rules.

Sorry, I should have phrased better...

The Old Gods forbid violating guest right.

Blood Raven violated guest right by killing a Blackfyre after offering safe passage.

Egg exiled him for this betrayal, which is also in violation of the laws of the old gods... Blood Raven defended himself, so while he may have obeyed it doesn't them like he wanted to go, but D&E hasn't gotten that far yet!

 

The first act of Aegon's reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King's Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm. 

Though many agreed, and were pleased to see another Blackfyre pretender removed, King Aegon felt he had no choice but to condemn the Hand, lest the word of the Iron Throne be seen as worthless. Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night's Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven's personal guard, the Raven's Teeth. The king's brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sorry, I should have phrased better...

The Old Gods forbid violating guest right.

Blood Raven violated guest right by killing a Blackfyre after offering safe passage.

Egg exiled him for this betrayal, which is also in violation of the laws of the old gods... Blood Raven defended himself, so while he may have obeyed it doesn't them like he wanted to go, but D&E hasn't gotten that far yet!

 

The first act of Aegon's reign was the arrest of Brynden Rivers, the King's Hand, for the murder of Aenys Blackfyre. Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm. 

Though many agreed, and were pleased to see another Blackfyre pretender removed, King Aegon felt he had no choice but to condemn the Hand, lest the word of the Iron Throne be seen as worthless. Yet after the sentence of death was pronounced, Aegon offered Bloodraven the chance to take the black and join the Night's Watch. This he did. Ser Brynden Rivers set sail for the Wall late in the year of 233 AC. (No one intercepted his ship). Two hundred men went with him, many of them archers from Bloodraven's personal guard, the Raven's Teeth. The king's brother, Maester Aemon, was also amongst them.

 

Still leaves the possibility of another scenario open though. Possibly BR knew he would get the chance to take the black all along maybe. After the death sentence is announced Egg visits him in the cells, BR explains his ideas and Egg and BR plot his travels to the wall, which has to involve Dunk for some reason.

"Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."

I think we have spoken before about how I believe all this is connected with BR and Dunk etc and how BR had a vision in his youth of a massive man carrying a greenseer protege north of the wall and when he first meets Dunk he automatically senses that man will come from his line.

"Six years ago in King's Landing, Dunk had seen him with his own two eyes, as he rode a pale horse up the Street of Steel with fifty Raven's Teeth behind him. That was before King Aerys had ascended to the Iron Throne and made him the Hand, but even so he cut a striking figure, garbed in smoke and scarlet with Dark Sister on his hip. His pallid skin and bone-white hair made him look a living corpse. Across his cheek and chin spread a wine-stain birthmark that was supposed to resemble a red raven, though Dunk only saw an odd-shaped blotch of discolored skin. He stared so hard that Bloodraven felt it. The king's sorcerer had turned to study him as he went by. He had one eye, and that one red. The other was an empty socket, the gift Bittersteel had given him upon the Redgrass Field. Yet it seemed to Dunk that both eyes had looked right through his skin, down to his very soul."

By insisting Dunk travels North this places him close to WF, where he can ride south to check on that slender beauty he kissed at the Weirwood back when Dagon was causing WF problems and D&E helped out.

This time though they do the deed and produce the line that will create Hodor, the massive man who will carry the young crippled Stark greenseer boy north to the wall, just like BR saw in his youth. 

Hey, this all may be a lot of rubbish and I found myself rambling on into my own wild tinfoil theory for which I apologise for doing on your thread. I owed you one though didn't I? 

I'll leave one last bit from your own quote:

 Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm. 

 

[Land's End]

1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

I applaud the effort and detail, but can't get on board with the idea. BR isn't a literal three-eyed crow, but I only think this is an issue for Bran because he's a kid who was expecting the literal thing. A three-eyed crow is creepy, but not as creepy as a living tree-corpse coming to you in dreams. 

(...)

I just can't get on board with the CotF secretly plotting with the Others to destroy humanity. Or see why Bloodraven would be on board with the plan. 

 

Yes, what's BRs motive? The Dunk and Egg stories kind of hint to him being friends with Aemon. Didn’t Aemon join the night watch with him? Anyway, he spent his life trying to protect the Targ dynasty - why would he suddenly aspire to become a tree and a slave to the CotF?

I don't think the CotF are Tolkien-style elves (though Tolkien's elves aren't as cliche as people make them out to be anyway), but I doubt they are simply plotting to destroy humanity with the help of the others. I think they stand somewhere between humans and others. At first humans might have been the major threat against which they allied with the others. But now they have to build new alliances.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

43 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Still leaves the possibility of another scenario open though. Possibly BR knew he would get the chance to take the black all along maybe. After the death sentence is announced Egg visits him in the cells, BR explains his ideas and Egg and BR plot his travels to the wall, which has to involve Dunk for some reason.

"Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."

I think we have spoken before about how I believe all this is connected with BR and Dunk etc and how BR had a vision in his youth of a massive man carrying a greenseer protege north of the wall and when he first meets Dunk he automatically senses that man will come from his line.

"Six years ago in King's Landing, Dunk had seen him with his own two eyes, as he rode a pale horse up the Street of Steel with fifty Raven's Teeth behind him. That was before King Aerys had ascended to the Iron Throne and made him the Hand, but even so he cut a striking figure, garbed in smoke and scarlet with Dark Sister on his hip. His pallid skin and bone-white hair made him look a living corpse. Across his cheek and chin spread a wine-stain birthmark that was supposed to resemble a red raven, though Dunk only saw an odd-shaped blotch of discolored skin. He stared so hard that Bloodraven felt it. The king's sorcerer had turned to study him as he went by. He had one eye, and that one red. The other was an empty socket, the gift Bittersteel had given him upon the Redgrass Field. Yet it seemed to Dunk that both eyes had looked right through his skin, down to his very soul."

By insisting Dunk travels North this places him close to WF, where he can ride south to check on that slender beauty he kissed at the Weirwood back when Dagon was causing WF problems and D&E helped out.

This time though they do the deed and produce the line that will create Hodor, the massive man who will carry the young crippled Stark greenseer boy north to the wall, just like BR saw in his youth. 

Hey, this all may be a lot of rubbish and I found myself rambling on into my own wild tinfoil theory for which I apologise for doing on your thread. I owed you one though didn't I? 

I'll leave one last bit from your own quote:

 Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm. 

 

Hey totally fair, I don't mind other tinfoil jumping in here at all... 

and I don't think what you said is impossible, I'm just not convinced that Blood Raven knew about or intended on ending up in a tree...

we don't know enough about Dunk and Nan? Or whatever is going on there, the idea that he played escort for an excuse to visit winterfell seems reasonable but we just don't know enough of the story there...

As far as Blood Raven sacrificing personal honor for the greater good, I find it telling that he sees the sacrifice as his honor and not a crime against gods and men... This isn't like Ned sacrificing his honor to cover Jon's heritage, there is oathbreaking and murder involved.

I think his disregard for good and evil and willingness to do "what is necessary" are the qualities I see translating... I mean that family (Targs) aren't on the thrown anymore... Their kingdom usurped, everything he sacrificed for lost...

Just look at how Aemon feels...

Maester Aemon sighed. "Have you heard nothing I've told you, Jon? Do you think you are the first?" He shook his ancient head, a gesture weary beyond words. "Three times the gods saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old. By then my strength was fled, my eyes grown dim, yet that last choice was as cruel as the first. My ravens would bring the news from the south, words darker than their wings, the ruin of my House, the death of my kin, disgrace and desolation. What could I have done, old, blind, frail? I was helpless as a suckling babe, yet still it grieved me to sit forgotten as they cut down my brother's poor grandson, and his son, and even the little children …"

But Aemon keeps his vows... Unlike Blood Raven...

Might Blood Raven have taken action, sacrificing his "honor" in the oath to the nights watch... As he once did ignoring guest right.

Of course again disregarding the inherent wrongness/evil of oathbreaking to further whatever he sees as "the greater good"...

I guess I'm just seeing BR as the other side of the coin from Aemon... One ruled the kingdom in all but name, the other turned down the crown... One keeps his vows, one doesnt

 

[JNR]

15 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

am I the only one who thinks Blood Raven is not the Three Eyed Crow?

No.

[Macgregor of the North]

9 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

As he once did ignoring guest right.

Remember, guest right involves the guest taking food and drink at table under the hosts roof. Its never stated this happened when BR nicked the Blackfyres head off. Sorry i had to nitpick that one since its been mentioned a couple times. 

It wasnt quite breaking guest right as the series sees it, although yes, there was foul play involved.

[Macgregor of the North]

16 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

As far as Blood Raven sacrificing personal honor for the greater good

I meant the bigger picture here, as in the greater good of the realm in the very endgame.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Just now, Macgregor of the North said:

Remember, guest right involves the guest taking food and drink at table under the hosts roof. Its never stated this happened when BR nicked the Blackfyres head off. Sorry i had to nitpick that one since its been mentioned a couple times. 

It wasnt quite breaking guest right as the series sees it, although yes, there was foul play involved.

So just violating a promise of safe passage? I guess we don't know if the Blackfyre ate any food first, that's true... Knit picking is aloud, especially when it comes to ancient laws!

but Egg clearly thought it was a crime...

And Blood Raven seems to personify the dismissing of chivalry and classic honor in favor of pragmatism...

I just think that this isn't always a good thing, and leads to a very blurred line between right and wrong... The ends justify the means is a dangerous road to go down, morally speaking