LiveFirstDieLater Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: I meant the bigger picture here, as in the greater good of the realm in the very endgame. Is it though, or is it the greater good of his family? Its not clear to me that his hate of Bittersteal and the Blackfyres didn't play just as large a role... anyway it begs the question, do his motives justify his otherwise "evil" acts? I always think of the saying "all is fair in love and war" when it comes to Blood Raven... Just not sure his idea of greater good and mine are very similar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 6 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: So just violating a promise of safe passage? I guess we don't know if the Blackfyre ate any food first, that's true... Knit picking is aloud, especially when it comes to ancient laws! but Egg clearly thought it was a crime... And Blood Raven seems to personify the dismissing of chivalry and classic honor in favor of pragmatism... I just think that this isn't always a good thing, and leads to a very blurred line between right and wrong... The ends justify the means is a dangerous road to go down, morally speaking Yup right away, no guest right for you Aenys: "Unwisely, Aenys accepted. Yet hardly had he entered the city when the gold cloaks seized hold of him and dragged him to the Red Keep, where his head was struck off forthwith and presented to the lords of the Great Council, as a warning to any who might still have Blackfyre sympathies." Yup Egg thought it was a crime for sure and it was. I just always liked the idea that this incident is what set in motion the idea of Bloodraven heading to the Wall to further his path which will lead him to his true purpose, to train a greenseer for the 'greater good of the realm'. And having said that I wondered if the BR comment of him sacrificing his honour for the greater good is a cheeky insert from GRRM to that effect: "Bloodraven did not deny that he had lured the pretender into his power by the offer of a safe conduct, but contended that he had sacrificed his own personal honor for the good of the realm." It's a stretch I know this wild tinfoil of mine, I'm quite fond of it though. But as fond as I am of it I'll not push it anymore on your thread, you have laid out a very good theory here and while I am not quite on board I am not ruling it out completely. After all, I am a huge Bran man and could never rule out the possibility he could indeed guide his own past self through dream. What I maybe fail to get though is the part that sets BR up as the bad guy, as I'm genuinely not of that opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Scribe of Naath Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 Take it or leave it information: Quote "I recall asking George when I interviewed him: did he always know that the 3EC was Bloodraven? His answer was that he always knew that he [Bloodraven] would be tied to the Targaryens. He didn't always have the specifics of how." Pretty clearly implies the 3EC is actually BR....in the early days of writing Game and Clash he most probably didn't have all the details of Bloodraven fleshed out, hence why you didn't have clearer hints. But it looks like the 3EC as he is now is indeed BR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 8 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said: Take it or leave it information: Pretty clearly implies the 3EC is actually BR....in the early days of writing Game and Clash he most probably didn't have all the details of Bloodraven fleshed out, hence why you didn't have clearer hints. But it looks like the 3EC as he is now is indeed BR. Ok so I've never saw this before. Reaches for the play button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 28 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said: Take it or leave it information: Pretty clearly implies the 3EC is actually BR....in the early days of writing Game and Clash he most probably didn't have all the details of Bloodraven fleshed out, hence why you didn't have clearer hints. But it looks like the 3EC as he is now is indeed BR. Leave it? Interesting but seems like a classic non answer (of course we only see this dudes interpretation)... Sounds like George said Blood Raven was always going to be a Targ, which at best is evasive... But it's not like the 3 chapters in Dance made it at all clear to me BR was the three eyes crow, in fact some of the biggest evidence against it is in the most recent chapters... Like BR reacting to being asked point blank and reacting the exact same way Sam did... clearly the story evolved as it was writen, but I think Bran was intended to be the 3eC from the start... I have yet to see George ever actually say that BR is the 3eC, it's always stuff like this where people come in with the assumption Also as I said before the show mysteriously changes the "three eyed crow" into the "three eyed raven"... I don't think it was an accident, and I'd like to avoid discussing the show since it's taken a different road in a lot of ways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 Also I was probably remiss in not including the Melisandre vision in the original post... A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled. Melisandre sees BR as a wooden face here, just as I'm suggesting Bran has seen him... But she sure doesn't see a three eyed crow... Also worth noting that BR just sees her, while Bran is howling (notice again that BR doesn't speak through a vision/dream but Bran seems able too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Scribe of Naath Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 13 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Leave it? Interesting but seems like a classic non answer (of course we only see this dudes interpretation)... Sounds like George said Blood Raven was always going to be a Targ, which at best is evasive... But it's not like the 3 chapters in Dance made it at all clear to me BR was the three eyes crow, in fact some of the biggest evidence against it is in the most recent chapters... Like BR reacting to being asked point blank and reacting the exact same way Sam did... clearly the story evolved as it was writen, but I think Bran was intended to be the 3eC from the start... I have yet to see George ever actually say that BR is the 3eC, it's always stuff like this where people come in with the assumption Also as I said before the show mysteriously changes the "three eyed crow" into the "three eyed raven"... I don't think it was an accident, and I'd like to avoid discussing the show since it's taken a different road in a lot of ways :rollingeyes: Well, which other Targ has First Men blood to even be capable of being a 3EC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said: :rollingeyes: Well, which other Targ has First Men blood to even be capable of being a 3EC? Sorry maybe I wasn't clear... Or misheard the guy... But... "Did you always know the 3eC would be BR? I always knew BR would be a Targ..." Is about as evasive as it gets... Of course this is a video of a second hand account, so for something where the wording is important it's just not hard evidence. Maybe I missed somehow but I've been around for a while and read/watched a lot of quotes and I've never heard George give a clear 3eC=BR quote ever... It's always playing it off like this seems, to me, to be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 9 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Also I was probably remiss in not including the Melisandre vision in the original post... A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled. Melisandre sees BR as a wooden face here, just as I'm suggesting Bran has seen him... But she sure doesn't see a three eyed crow... Also worth noting that BR just sees her, while Bran is howling (notice again that BR doesn't speak through a vision/dream but Bran seems able too) Ah, but also by this logic Bran most certainly doesn't appear as a three eyed crow either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Scribe of Naath Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: Sorry maybe I wasn't clear... Or misheard the guy... But... "Did you always know the 3eC would be BR? I always knew BR would be a Targ..." Is about as evasive as it gets... Of course this is a video of a second hand account, so for something where the wording is important it's just not hard evidence. Maybe I missed somehow but I've been around for a while and read/watched a lot of quotes and I've never heard George give a clear 3eC=BR quote ever... It's always playing it off like this seems, to me, to be Well, you're free to believe what you wish, of course, but don't be surprised if most people assign more weight to Ran's words directly from GRRM stating that the 3EC would be a Targ (for which the only plausible candidate is BR) than your own speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Scribe of Naath Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 6 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said: Ah, but also by this logic Bran most certainly doesn't appear as a three eyed crow either. This. He appears as a weirwood tree to Jon in his dream in Clash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said: Ah, but also by this logic Bran most certainly doesn't appear as a three eyed crow either. Very true, but we have other examples of Starks being seen as wolf headed people... But you're absolutely right, of course hat might be a bit of a give away no? I just have never understood why anyone would think George would go to such lengths to differentiate crows and Ravens only to have BloodRaven appear as a crow, then not know what Bran meant when asked about it... What possible logic could explain it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 1 minute ago, Little Scribe of Naath said: This. He appears as a weirwood tree to Jon in his dream in Clash. With three eyes... Even the "three eyed crow" doesn't have the third eye until Bran does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Scribe of Naath Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 If you asked Bran about his dream of Jon in Clash, he wouldn't know that he appeared as a weirwood tree either. That's exactly what happened with BR - he doesn't know that he appears as a 3EC in Bran's dream, that's why he was confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 8 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said: Well, you're free to believe what you wish, of course, but don't be surprised if most people assign more weight to Ran's words directly from GRRM stating that the 3EC would be a Targ (for which the only plausible candidate is BR) than your own speculation. Maybe I wasn't clear but I don't think that's what he said... He said BR was always going to be a Targ, not the 3eC... But maybe I misunderstood... Or maybe it was intentionally misleading, again it's really hard to judge a quote second hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said: If you asked Bran about his dream of Jon in Clash, he wouldn't know that he appeared as a weirwood tree either. That's exactly what happened with BR - he doesn't know that he appears as a 3EC in Bran's dream, that's why he was confused. So I think this is the classic line of thinking, and I hear you... Im just not convinced that there is any evidence of these characters not knowing how they appear in a dream... I mean I haven't read anything that would give me that impression I think it's just the reasoning readers have used to try and bridge the gap... honestly at the most fundamental level, I just don't see why BR would appear as a crow (not a Raven) or why he would have three eyes (not a thousand, or one, shit even two I can buy 1+1invisible eye) but I don't expect to convince everyone, just wanted to get my ideas out there, I just haven't been able to shake this thought for years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: but I don't expect to convince everyone, just wanted to get my ideas out there, I just haven't been able to shake this thought for years We don't agree but I'm gonna give you a . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 7 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said: We don't agree but I'm gonna give you a . Haha, I'll take what I can get! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveFirstDieLater Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 I feel like this little list belongs here too... It seems to me that the parallels between Dany’s brief visit to the House of the Undying and Bran’s current vacation in BloodRaven’s Lair are too numerouse to be coincidental. I’ve listed some of the major ones here: Both pass through a door in the shape of a mouth (door to The HotU / The black gate) Both are led there by a servant that is something more, or less, than human. (Pryat Pree / ColdHands) but this servant does not enter with them. Both locations feature large groves of magical trees (The indigo trees / frozen weirwood grove) Both locations are full of pint sized creatures (the servitors / the Children) Both Dany and Bran are fed an odd tasting yet seemingly magical substance that is made from the trees and “lets them see” (Shade of the Evening / Weirwood seed paste) Both are given instructions not to wander (always the last door on the right / network of caverns) Both have had many who enter that do not leave (Pryat Pree talks about the front door of the House / the bones) Both have “living” corpses at their heart (The Undying in the Heart Room / Blood Raven, and the Children, in the Heart Trees) Both are promised magic and power if they join the occupants (The Undying offer to Dany / Blood Raven’s offer to Bran) Both see visions, I believe of their respective families, which I don’t want to get to sidetracked but I think are related, both see Jon (Dany’s Rooms and threes / Bran’s seeing through the Heart Tree in Winterfell) Both have some odd time stuff going on (Dany is only gone for a few moments to those outside / Whatever is going on with Bran and the moon) And of course it shouldn’t have to be said but the Undying seem to try and eat Dany at the end… LOOK OUT BRAN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 20 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said: snipped First off, give yourself some credit. Your argument is well presented and clear. Thanks for taking the time. A few counterpoints. 1. I believe your argument that BR wouldn't appear as a crow is moot. BR doesn't know how he appears in Bran's dreams. And if you are bothered by BR being a crow (rather than a raven) in Bran's dreams, couldn't a reasonable conclusion be that BR was once a crow? 2. The crow having three eyes is a reference to Bran learning how to open his "third eye" to skinchange. 3. The CotF refer to BR as "the last greenseer". BR does not refer to himself as such. When the CotF call BR the last greenseer, Bran has not done any greenseeing yet. So, from their view, it is reasonable for them to call BR the last greenseer. 4. Most important. BR tells Bran he came to him in dreams after Bran asks if he is the 3EC. Quote "A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. To me, this seals it. I should disclose, however, that I do not like the idea of an ever powerful Bran going back through time to influence the future. Yes, I acknowledge that it is possible and could be happening, I just do not like it. So I may have a slight bias against Bran = 3EC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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