Coolbeard the Exile Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Martin must have gotten the numbers wrong here. At Bitterbridge Renly's army was 25% cavalry 75% infantry because 20,000 of his 80,000 there were mounted. The stormlands forces at Bitterbridge are therfore almost certainly 20,000 and the reach 60,000 meaning Stormlands had 5000 cavalry at Bitterbridge and the Reach had 15,000 cavalry there. Out of the 20,000 cavalry that Renly commanded to defeat Stannis 4/5th joined Stannis being 16,000 we can asume all 5000 of the Stormland cavalry went with them meaning 11,000 Reach cavalry went along to join Stannis to reach the number 16,000 Cavalry. So the problem is that there were relativly few and weak Houses from the Reach that joined Stannis being Foosoway, Florent, Willum, Varner, Mullendore, Crane, and Meadows. How could those houses possibly gather 11,000 cavalry all by themselves. House Florent is stated as having 2000 soldiers with a large proportion of that being cavalry say 30% = 600 cavalry. Fossoway are one of the Strongest houses of the Reach and are probably able to gather 1000 Cavalry. Say that the other 5 lesser houses are able to gather 1500 cavalry that means that the reach realisticly only sent 600 + 1000 + 1500 = 3100 cavalry but supposedly the reach sent 11,000 cavalry and this is way of. Did George mess up on his numbers or is there something im not thinking of? Also i am wondering where all the Stormland forces went after the battle of Blackwater bay. There were 15,000 Stormland infantry left at Bitterbridge and the casualties at the Blackwater was 619 knights killed Several thousand men-at-arms killed Say that 5000 of Stannis host were killed that means that the Stormlands only lost around 1500 cavalry. So the Stormlands should have 15,000 Infantry and 3500 cavalry left. So were did everyone go? Did they go home dosn't seem so because Aegon was able to capture basicly all the Stormlands without ressistance. If i have calculated right the Stormlands are stronger militarily than the Lannisters. Could you guys explain for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 The Stormlands forces are a mystery to me too. Where the hell are they? Aegon is taking over Cape Wrath and besieging Storm's End with... what? Five thousand men? Where are all the thousands of men who did not die during Blackwater or Bitterbridge? I know some of them were made to march with Jaime Lannister or Randyll Tarly against enemies in the Riverlands, but come on. What the hell is up with the Stormlands suddenly being so easy to conquer?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernXY Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 If someone has 100,000 soldiers and 20,000 are mounted, that makes it 20% cavalry, not 25%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 There were 80,000 soldiers at bitterbridge not 100,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 After Stannis recruits the 16,000 Cavalry he sends Ser Erren and Ser Parmen to recruit the 60,000 infantry left at bitterbridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitman47 Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 STANNIS IS PICE OF SHIT HE DESOENT KNOW HOW TO LEAD A ARMY HIS BORHTER ROBTER DID THE GOOD STUFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 The Stormlands infantry were massacred at Bitterbridge by Randyll Tarly, Loras Tyrell and Mathis Rowan when their lords joined Stannis. The same happened to the Infantry of the Reach house's that joined Stannis. As for the numbers, Renly did indeed have 100,000 men. Stannis sent his envoys to collect the 60k because the remaining 20k belonged to the Lords that had just joined him. Or so I presume. It's either that or George messed up (possible, the man is only human) but in my head I prefer to think the former. I always believed 30k of Renly's army were Stormlords, with about 8k being horsed. That would seem to make sense, given that the Stormlands are about as large as say the Riverlands and should be able to raise about as many men. He took 20k cavalry with him to Storms End. 16k joined Stannis, with half of that being Stormlords. The remaining 8k were from the Reach Lords. Now, Mullendore, Varner, Willum, Crane and Meadows are not minor house's. They are noble houses, probably similar in size to the Umber's for example. Mullendore is even larger because they are principal vassals of Oldtown, the most powerful house of the Reach and would provide a significant portion of the man power for the Hightower's. So I'd say you under estimated their combined strength. I'd say 2,500 for those five. Fossoway and Florent estimations seem to be right so that's 4k instead of 3. The remaining 4k I believe comes from the other reach Lords that join Stannis that are not expressly named. The Battle of the Blackwater casualties involved several thousand men at arms dying (say 5k, like you said) and 8k switching sides (presumably all reachmen) and 1500 escape with Stannis. The remaining 8000 men were stranded when the fleet left and surrendered. The majority bent the knee and were sent to fight against the Riverlords and the Northmen. I presume they got folded into Randyll's force, and are most likely with him right now. 20 minutes ago, hitman47 said: STANNIS IS PICE OF SHIT HE DESOENT KNOW HOW TO LEAD A ARMY HIS BORHTER ROBTER DID THE GOOD STUFF Wow, harsh. What exactly did he do that made him so evil in your eyes. Robert wasn't all that great, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 8 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said: The Stormlands infantry were massacred at Bitterbridge by Randyll Tarly, Loras Tyrell and Mathis Rowan when their lords joined Stannis. The same happened to the Infantry of the Reach house's that joined Stannis. Was the massacre that serious? Pretty sure a lot of the stormlander men fled back to their homes. The men Randyll massacred were mostly Florents, and since they only number 2000 at full strength, and since more than half of Stannis' remaining 1500 men were Florents, I'd say that Randyll didn't kill that many people at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 3 minutes ago, Canon Claude said: Was the massacre that serious? Pretty sure a lot of the stormlander men fled back to their homes. The men Randyll massacred were mostly Florents, and since they only number 2000 at full strength, and since more than half of Stannis' remaining 1500 men were Florents, I'd say that Randyll didn't kill that many people at all. It's been a while so I may be wrong. But I always assumed that it was that serious. Randyll seems to be the type of guy who'd do that. Edit: From the wiki "Lord Randyll Tarly returns to Bitterbridge, seizes Renly's stores, and puts many of the foot to death, especially those of House Florent" So while he was particularly vicious to the Florent men, he did kill a lot, it would seem, going by the word "many" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 Adam Yozza i belive you are way off on multiple things you said. There is no implication that the greatest massacre in all of asoiaf happend at bitterbridge. We know Tarly had some soldiers chifly the Florents executed but he didnt slaughter 15,000 soldiers or we would know about it. Likely he executed a few thousand soldiers at max. Also on Renlys army numbers you have to know that not all the Stormland houses were with Renly as many Lords stayed neutral and didn't get involved like House Dondarion, Swann and probably Tarth. Many bannermen also sided with Stannis instead of Renly even before Renlys Death so whilst the stormlands might be able to raise 30,000 soldiers scraping the barrel many decided to stay univolved in the war of the five kings. House Florent were one of the most powerful houses in all of the Reach and they are said to have 2000 soldiers. Now Mullendore, Varner, Willum, Crane and Meadows are noble houses but i don't believe they have over 1000 soldiers each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 Also hitman47 you are so wrong you must not have read the books. Stannis is the best commander in asoiaf by far i think. List of Stannis Baratheons achievments: Held Storm's End for near a year against the might of the Reach never giving up nomater what. Constructed a new Royal Fleet from scratch Captured Dragonstone Defeated the Iron fleet at the sea battle of Fair Isle Subdued Great Wyk He also once led a fleet to Sisterton, to suppress smuggling from the Three sisters He almost captured on of the greatest cities in westeros King's landing that was very heavily garrisoned despite having his fleet raped by wildfire and it was the insanely lucky timing of the Tyrells and Lannisters that made him lose otherwise he commanded his forces briliantly. He defeated the much larger wildling army at the battle of Castle Black HE IS ABOUT TO DESTROY THE BOLTONS AND REINSTAL THE STARKS IN THE NORTH AGAINST ALL ODS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 4 minutes ago, Knight of valour said: Many bannermen also sided with Stannis instead of Renly Who? The only men that Stannis had were the men from the crownlands (Farring, Massey, Bar Emmon, Velaryon, Sunglass, Chyttering, . The only one you could make a case for is House Horpe, since Ser Richard holds a prominent position in Stannis' army. But other than that, nobody declared for Stannis until Renly died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 Please some apreciation for my man Stannis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 Floki of the Ironborn House Fell and House Wylde and House Seaworth aswell as other unnamed houses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 Also two of the strongest houses Swann and Dondarion didn't pick sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floki of the Ironborn Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 16 minutes ago, Knight of valour said: Floki of the Ironborn House Fell and House Wylde and House Seaworth aswell as other unnamed houses There's no evidence that the Wyldes and Fells supported Stannis from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolbeard the Exile Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 Either way they didn't support the army in question with troops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scott Malkinson Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 40 minutes ago, Knight of valour said: Also hitman47 you are so wrong you must not have read the books. Stannis is the best commander in asoiaf by far i think. List of Stannis Baratheons achievments: Held Storm's End for near a year against the might of the Reach never giving up nomater what. Constructed a new Royal Fleet from scratch Captured Dragonstone Defeated the Iron fleet at the sea battle of Fair Isle Subdued Great Wyk He also once led a fleet to Sisterton, to suppress smuggling from the Three sisters He almost captured on of the greatest cities in westeros King's landing that was very heavily garrisoned despite having his fleet raped by wildfire and it was the insanely lucky timing of the Tyrells and Lannisters that made him lose otherwise he commanded his forces briliantly. He defeated the much larger wildling army at the battle of Castle Black HE IS ABOUT TO DESTROY THE BOLTONS AND REINSTAL THE STARKS IN THE NORTH AGAINST ALL ODS shhh... don't feed the trolls... 2 hours ago, Canon Claude said: The Stormlands forces are a mystery to me too. Where the hell are they? Aegon is taking over Cape Wrath and besieging Storm's End with... what? Five thousand men? Where are all the thousands of men who did not die during Blackwater or Bitterbridge? I know some of them were made to march with Jaime Lannister or Randyll Tarly against enemies in the Riverlands, but come on. What the hell is up with the Stormlands suddenly being so easy to conquer?? We have no idea what happened to those men, but we do know they have no leader with the authority to gather them. Dondarrion died in the Riverlands but no one knows this, Lord Caron died and had no heir, some like Red Ronnet are with Jaime or Randyll in the Riverlands, some are in the North with Stannis. Then there's some lords, like the Estermonts, who've had their lands taken by the GC during their surprise attack. Amidst all this chaos with part of the region taken by surprise, part lacking leadership and the rest being divided between supporting Tommen or Stannis, what army could even be gathered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernXY Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Sorry, read it incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 6 hours ago, Knight of valour said: So the problem is that there were relativly few and weak Houses from the Reach that joined Stannis being Foosoway, Florent, Willum, Varner, Mullendore, Crane, and Meadows. How could those houses possibly gather 11,000 cavalry all by themselves. So firstly these are the Reach Houses that we know went over to Stannis. Many others that haven't been named may have joined him as well to make those numbers. Then there's the fact, the Florents, Red Apple Fossoways, Mullendores and Meadows aren't weak houses. They're not the strongest reach houses, but they are large and powerful. Like the Hornwoods, Cerwyns, Karstarks etc of the North. But lastly I think to make up that number of 11000, a bunch of the bannermen of Oakhart, Tarly, Rowan and even possibly Tyrell might have stayed behind. A possible example (all numbers hypothetical) is Mathis Rowan might have 4,000 Bannermen. 1000 who are cavalry he takes leaving 3000 at bitterbridge. 200 might be his household guard and direct levies, the other 800 from houses sworn to him. When he leaves with Loras, he takes his 200, calls his 800 to come with him. But perhaps 3-500 stay behind to fight for Stannis instead thinking they'll get riches/land/titles etc. Remember just because someone has 10,000 or 30,000 men, only a fraction are their personal directly sworn troops. The rest come from the Feudal System. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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