Does Benjen know Jon Snow's parentage?

[sweetsunray]

58 minutes ago, Balerion's Whiskers said:

edited to add...

If Benjen knew and told Mormont before he left, then Jeor should have told Jon before he took his vows...which he never did. So, I conclude that even if Benjen knew, (in the final published work) he never told Jeor.

Exactly. He wrote on aGoT a few years, interspaced with TV work. Mormont was mostly rewritten imo, and he left a few passages about him that he felt could be used for a foreshaodwing feel rather than "Mormont knows". It's only on the nth re-read that some of what he says to Tyrion about his dreams and there being more scary stuff North of the Wall than wildlings is kindof jarring with his later "We forgot our purpose!" He doesn't mention dreams either afterwards. And Jeor "pretending to consider Jon insignificant" became "considers Jon insignificant", which then jarrs with the "King! King!" look he gives Jon. It's just one line in a scene with Jon, and it almost gives the impression that the raven is staring at hmi (rather than Jeor). And he probably could not completely edit out Jeor's scary dreams in Tyion's chapter, because Tyrion was warned and later dismisses it publically when he's Hand, and it'll probably come bite him in the ass.

[Land's End]

55 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

George stayed away from forums since the late 90s, because there were theories that had stuff right. He does not want to be influenced in his writing because of theories. And he also explicitly said he won't change things just because the show let one of the cats out of the bag, and aslo stressed that since S5 the show and book stories are different anyway. But no, I don't think he will change what he originally planned to reveal. He just changed how he was going to reveal it.

I wouldn't take Martin's word for it. Even if he keeps it the show might just be a minor factor amongst others. Maybe the same plan got boring after ten years. Seeing it played out might have been the straw to break the camels back. Martin said he loses interest in the story if he knows exactly where it's going. Quite possible that at this point just changing how won’t be enough. But anyway, that's off topic and I really hope he sticks to his original plan. Everything else would feel forced.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Land's End said:

I wouldn't take Martin's word for it. Even if he keeps it the show might just be a minor factor amongst others. Maybe the same plan got boring after ten years. Seeing it played out might have been the straw to break the camels back. Martin said he loses interest in the story if he knows exactly where it's going. Quite possible that at this point just changing how won’t be enough. But anyway, that's off topic and I really hope he sticks to his original plan. Everything else would feel forced.

We will have to agree to strongly disagree on this.

[Land's End]

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

We will have to agree to strongly disagree on this.

On what exactly? I only said he might change his plans but I hope he doesn't. I assume you think he won't so how do we disagree strongly?

I'm afraid I missed something

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I wouldn't take Martin's word for it. Even if he keeps it the show might just be a minor factor amongst others. Maybe the same plan got boring after ten years.

On the above, Land's End. I recognize something similar when I'm towards an end of a story. I have it all in my head, but writing it is a type of saying goodbye, and I want it to be perfect, and I'm not always able to say goodbye to it. It has little to do with being bored. 

[Land's End]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

On the above, Land's End. I recognize something similar when I'm towards an end of a story. I have it all in my head, but writing it is a type of saying goodbye, and I want it to be perfect, and I'm not always able to say goodbye to it. It has little to do with being bored. 

I know the feeling you describe. Martin might experience the same but he might also lose interest. The latter isn't my opinion, it's what I draw from his statements. In an interview he said “As you know, I don’t outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it.”  The statement could refer to how the story is written as you said. But it could also refer to the ending. Martin has already changed the story a lot. Surely you read his 90s draft... Jaime is not the main villain, Arya and Jon have no romance (and hopefully never will) so why should Jon's parentage be the one thing that's save from modifications. I really hope he sticks to his plan. But I'm trying to prepare myself in case things don't go as expected.

Anyway, I don't want to ruin this thread. The discussion you guys had earlier was really insightful.

[sweetsunray]

32 minutes ago, Land's End said:

In an interview he said “As you know, I don’t outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it.”  The statement could refer to how the story is written as you said.

It wasn't an interview in which he said that, but at a koffeeklatsh at Balticon a few months ago. I actually heard the recording of that one hour meet between several fans and George. Two members of this forum were present there. And the whole outline explanation of George was in response to one of them asking George about the possible implied meaning of quotes in the books regarding the type of relation that Jon and Arya have. So, I actually understand the full context of the quote you're now mentioning (though I was not present). Some quotes about Jon interacting with Ygritte and sometimes being reminded of Arya were put before him. And he initially tried to explain that Jon and Arya have a special sibling relationship because they were somewhat the outsiders of the same family, and how some of each other's traits have become a postive feature when they recognize it in someone else. When new quotes were put before him, he jumped to the outline and explained why it was written.

He never wrote an outline before in his life when he wrote a book. He never did the 3 chapter thing + outline, send it to publisher and hope they accept it. He wrote a whole book and sent that. He's a "gardener". He doesn't plot the whole book out beforehand. He knows images when he starts out, allows the characters room to grow their own voice, needs and wants, and as he starts to follow them it will become clearer how some parts of the story will enfold. And yes, he knows the ending of the characters he started out with fairly early, it's the whole voyage from A to Z that he's flexible on.

An outline is not about A or Z (BTW the outline's ending is blacked out), but writing out a synopsis of A, B, C, D, .... X, Y, Z. It's the B-Y outlining that George finds the boring thing if he has to follow it. The problem was that this series was not going to be just one book, but originally a trilogy. And initially he started to write and it took him 2-3 years to get close to 300 pages done, because he had to also work for TV for an income. And he wanted to write full time on the series instead. So, he had to do the one thing he never did before. He wrote a 3 page outline, and basically said at the Balticon koffeeklatsh he made something up, because he didn't know yet what was going to happen. The outline got him the contract, and he basically put the outline out of his mind as soon as he wrote it. That's when he was able to concentrate fully on writing aGoT.

And he did forget about the outline. He expected the publishers to keep it in some box to be outed AFTER the series was finished. But the publishing house hung it up in some conference room, and somebody copied it and leaked it. 

What he said about "losing interest" applies to outlining. He wants the story to come from the characters. Not write out a transcript. So, the parentage for Jon he chose at the start will not alter. And how it will be revealed and confirmed in the books hasn't been published yet and he can write it any way he wants to.

 

[Land's End]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

- zip -

 

Wow, that's very interesting, thank you for sharing.

[sweetsunray]

15 minutes ago, Land's End said:

Wow, that's very interesting, thank you for sharing.

If you want to know the transcript precisely or find out more, then best inquire with @The Fattest Leech. She was the "reporter" of that koffeeklatsh.

[Gertrude]

Regarding Mormont and the crow, I can't tell you what I initially thought when reading it. However, on re-reads and knowing what I do about Bloodraven and skinchanging, I have taken it to mean that Mormont knew to pay attention to the crow. Not always, but when he says something unusual or seemingly on the nose he should listen up. Not that Mormont knew exactly what was happening with his bird, just that the crow sometimes seemed almost prophetic. I think this was a moment where Mormont was very aware of the bird's nature and was intensely curious and possibly worried as to what it could mean. There is a small chance that Benjen shared info about Jon with Mormont, but personally I find it extremely unlikely.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Thing is the crow "king" clue only works properly if:

- Jon were Robert's son, since the crow only calls him king in the chapters right after Robert's death, and the Baratheons are the royal family per the faith and houses of westeros, jon would be the older son, even if a bastard

- Aerys put Viserys ahead of Rhaegar (negating rhaegar's line) after his death at the trident per Targaryen sucsession, so after Viserys died, Dany is the one ahead (when you erase a line it cannot be put ahead legaly if there's another active, at least in medieval europe)

- Bloodraven (crow) knows all of this

The crow clue has more to it imo

[Land's End]

12 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

The crow clue has more to it imo

But you won't tell us what?

[sweetsunray]

15 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Thing is the crow "king" clue only works properly if:

- Jon were Robert's son, since the crow only calls him king in the chapters right after Robert's death, and the Baratheons are the royal family per the faith and houses of westeros, jon would be the older son, even if a bastard

- Aerys put Viserys ahead of Rhaegar (negating rhaegar's line) after his death at the trident per Targaryen sucsession, so after Viserys died, Dany is the one ahead (when you erase a line it cannot be put ahead legaly if there's another active, at least in medieval europe)

- Bloodraven (crow) knows all of this

The crow clue has more to it imo

Or because Jon will become king, or was the Targ King since the day he was born, regardless. The 3 KG at the ToJ at least seem to behave as if he was. The raven cannot suddenly be crying King out of the blue without blowing his cover, and only says a word or short sentence in a situation where someone else mentions the word.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

5 hours ago, Land's End said:

But you won't tell us what?

I gladly would, but it's an asumption 

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Or because Jon will become king, or was the Targ King since the day he was born, regardless. The 3 KG at the ToJ at least seem to behave as if he was. The raven cannot suddenly be crying King out of the blue without blowing his cover, and only says a word or short sentence in a situation where someone else mentions the word.

Yep, but it's right after the chapter Robert dies that grrm writes the "king corn" clue, and Jon had been around mormont and his crow before king robert died... Strange stuff

[sweetsunray]

32 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Yep, but it's right after the chapter Robert dies that grrm writes the "king corn" clue, and Jon had been around mormont and his crow before king robert died... Strange stuff

It's the only right time to bring up a king.

[Julia H.]

Great discussion!  I agree that Ned wouldn't tell Benjen for all the reasons mentioned above and for the added reason that the knowledge itself is dangerous not only for Jon but also for everyone who shares it. Ned does his best to protect Jon and the rest of his family. 

Yes, Benjen may have figured it out on his own though.

Regarding Mormont, on the one hand, I think his change of attitude towards Jon can be explained by Maester Aemon telling him about his conversation with Jon regarding Sam,  in which Jon showed good judgement, determination, intelligence, a protective nature and other leadership qualities.  (Jon told Maester Aemon everything he had done to protect Sam.) Aemon also found out that Jon wasn't just some bastard,  he had the education and mentality of a true Stark son. Being a real Stark probably means more or at least as much for Mormont as being a Targaryen. Also, Benjen's disappearance may have made Jon more important as the "spare"  Stark in the NW. Perhaps Benjen had been Mormont's intended successor, and when he was lost, Mormont realized there was no one else to follow him.

On the other hand, Mormont does have that strange look, and he also compares Jon to Aemon. However,  it is in the context of Jon being King Robb's brother, and it isn't necessary to invent further reasons.  Anyway,  if Mormont suspected anything, nothing came out of it. But if he did, I don't think he was told by Benjen. If Benjen had wanted him to keep Jon from taking the vow, he could have asked him without telling him about L+R. It simply wasn't Benjen's place to spread this information,  especially while Ned was still alive.

As for Aemon,  I agree that he was blind so that he couldn't see Jon. But he did become a mentor to Jon and gave him the same advice he had given Egg. He may have done that without realizing that Jon was his kin, yet feeling some similarity between Jon and Egg, or just loving him like a long-lost nephew. It is quite poignant. 

[theblackdragonI]

I like the idea that Aemon might have recognised some of Rhaegar in Jon, but how would Jon have picked up any of Rhaegar's mannerisms? He would have no memory of anything other than Winterfell and the Starks, and Ned certainly raised him as a Stark. Just a general question because I honestly have no idea, do adopted children often have the characteristics of their biological parents? 

I don't think Mormont knew, I think he wanted Jon as his successor and warmed to him so much for two reasons:

1) Jon is a natural, brave and honourable leader of men thanks to Ned. As such a man himself and without Benjen to succeed him, Mormont saw in Jon a potentially great Lord Commander to get them through the harsh winter. I'm sure Mormont thought he had more time than he did have left as he was truly a great bear of a man, vigorous and robust.

2) Jon was the son he wanted, not the son he was given. Jorah was probably the model Mormont heir, brave and loyal. When he sold slaves an action spat upon in Westeros, but especially in the honourable North, he disgraced the Mormont name and deeply wounded his father. I think that both Mormont and Jon entered unknowingly into a father-son like relationship, which is why Mormont didn't want to send him with the Halfhand. 

And to answer my original post I really like some of the ideas on here. I agree with some of the posters that Benjen found out on his own. He probably knew Lyanna left willingly with Rhaegar, as he was the closest with her and probably knew about the Knight of the Laughing Tree (if its Lyanna). I imagine when Ned came back from a dead Lyanna, with a baby, Benjen put two and two together. Knowing how honourable Ned is and how wild Benjen was it, I can see Benjen asking him what really happened and when Ned either didn't reply or gave him the "Lord face", Benjen knew and left for the Watch not soon after as a result. 

[LynnS]

Considering that Ned was going to tell Jon about his mother 'after' he joined the Nights Watch; I think it's possible that he also told Benjen after he joined the Watch as well; if he didn't already know. 

[Julia H.]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Considering that Ned was going to tell Jon about his mother 'after' he joined the Nights Watch; I think it's possible that he also told Benjen after he joined the Watch as well; if he didn't already know. 

That's in the show, right? He never said anything like that to Jon in the book. Why would he tell Benjen anything after Benjen joined the NW? What difference did it make with regard to Jon?

[Runaway Penguin]

Benjen knows. He is about the only person to whom Ned might divulge the truth, especially if he was able to piece a lot together on his own. Both brothers would at least need to agree on one sort of story, so that people do not get different replies to same answers from Ned and from Benjen - for example the difference between "She went willingly" and "She was kidnapped and raped". then again getting notes in tune would be suspicious if Benjen did not get explanation and HE might start askinbg questions...