Does Benjen know Jon Snow's parentage?

[theblackdragonI]

If R+L=J, it seems really over the top and ignorant of Ned to not tell Benjen, right?

[Winter prince]

Benjen would not know.  If he doesn't tell Catelyn; he doesn't tell anyone

[theblackdragonI]

2 minutes ago, Winter prince said:

Benjen would not know.  If he doesn't tell Catelyn; he doesn't tell anyone

Ned's a dick. Benjen was the closest with Lyanna of all, and its not like there's any danger of him letting that slip to Robert.

[Makk]

1 hour ago, theblackdragonI said:

Ned's a dick. Benjen was the closest with Lyanna of all, and its not like there's any danger of him letting that slip to Robert.

It's not a privilege, keeping that secret is a burden. Ned would not have told. The only way Benjen would know is if he was able to figure it out himself.

[Gertrude]

I've always kind of believed Benjen knew and that played a part in why he joined the Night's Watch. I don't think it's a case of Ned telling Benjen, but Lyanna telling Benjen about her and Rhaegar and Benjen putting together the pieces when Ned comes home. Perhaps Benjen was supposed to tell their father Lyanna ran away willingly after giving her a headstart and he wasn't able to - something along those lines. I also hope that it's Benjen who tells Jon about his parentage. *sigh* I will patiently sit and wait to see how it plays out.

[Scorpion92]

4 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I've always kind of believed Benjen knew and that played a part in why he joined the Night's Watch. I don't think it's a case of Ned telling Benjen, but Lyanna telling Benjen about her and Rhaegar and Benjen putting together the pieces when Ned comes home. Perhaps Benjen was supposed to tell their father Lyanna ran away willingly after giving her a headstart and he wasn't able to - something along those lines. I also hope that it's Benjen who tells Jon about his parentage. *sigh* I will patiently sit and wait to see how it plays out.

Same here. Always suspected that Benjen joining Night's Watch was a way to atone for his mistakes and start anew. Not telling his family about Lyanna's relationship with Rhaegar cost thousands of lives, including his dad, older brother and sister's lives. That kind of burden can mess up a person. And yeah, I do not agree that Ned not telling Catelyn about Jon means he did not tell Benjen. There are tons of things brothers know about each other that wives don't. Telling Benjen about Jon would never have harmed the infant, he does not strike me as kind of a character who will go and spread the word and endanger his nephew.

[Gertrude]

Eh, I can see the case for Ned not telling Benjen. Ned is the type to tell his lie and make it believable through sheer repetition and force of will. Benjen has a deeper understanding of the situation and people involved and should see through this. I don't think Ned worries about Benjen knowing (as you said, it's blood), but Ned probably never even told Benjen out loud. However, an understanding can happen without words. All it would take is is a look to convey all that needs to be known.

I don't agree that Cat and Benjen are equivalent either. At the time, Cat was a stranger. Even after their relationship grew, there are reasons to keep quiet - admittedly those reasons grow weaker over time, but don't disappear completely. And face it, when things are going badly for Cat, we see that she's willing to do about anything to protect her own children. Not blaming her for that at all, but it's a fact and Jon is not her blood.

[Greywater-Watch]

5 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Always suspected that Benjen joining Night's Watch was a way to atone for his mistakes and start anew.

It is possible that Benjen Stark joined the Night's Watch for some common reasons:

1) He is the youngest of three brothers; traditionally these have often been send to the Night's Watch as not considered relevant for the Lineage continuation.

2) http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Benjen_Stark: During the tourney at Harrenhal: "He also listened to a black brother, who tried to convince the gathered people to join the Night's Watch, a plea that Benjen took to heart."

 

I  admit that after the successful rebellion and Brandon Stark's death, Benjen's importance for the Stark-Lineage continuation had changed. And GRRM's refusal to give more evidence for Benjen Stark's decision to join the Night's Watch is curious.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/ConQuest_Kansas_City_MO_May_27_294

When, specifically, did Benjen join the NW? Was it a couple of years after Ned returned, or immediately?

"It was within a few months of Ned's returning. The reason being that there always was a Stark at Winterfell, so he had to stay there until Ned returned. GRRM refused to say the reason why Benjen had to join the NW."

[Land's End]

Interesting. Your responses make me believe Benjen might have known.

Do you think it's likely that Aemon and maybe Mormont knew too? Aemon was in contact with Benjen, Bloodraven and Rhaegar. I always found it a little curious that Aemon gave Jon the "kill the boy" talk he gave Egg. Might have been because Jon was very young for becoming Lord Commander, might have been for other reasons. But if he knew Aemon would have talked about it during his delirium. Instead his mind turned to Dany. Guess we'll never because Sam let Aemon die in the rain.

(Kidding. It was Jon’s fault.)

 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

I think Benjen could know even if Ned didn't tell him anything. Ned and Lyanna were his siblings, so he knew them quite well. I don't think that Ben would buy a story about Ned fathering a bastard while fighting the war and the thing that Ned refused to speak about kid's mother. Benjen just needed to put 2 and 2 together to draw a right conclusion: a young woman was found in a bed of blood, died, and here we have a baby.

I also assume that Benjen could knew something about Lyanna's elope (I'm positive she eloped) or at least suspected, but was unable to prevent it.

[The Wolves]

If Lyanna is Jon's mother Benjen has a right to know, so I hope Ned did tell him that would be horribly unfair if he didn't.  

[dornishdame]

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. (Eddard VIII in A Game of Thrones)

Jon's true identity fits into this category; knowledge of who he really is could get Ned and his family killed, and if they did not know the secret then they could not have it teased or tortured out of them.  

That said, I do think that Benjen - maybe immediately, maybe over time - put together the pieces and puzzled out Jon's parentage for himself.  We are told that Jon looked like Arya - and that Arya, in turn, looked like Lyanna; ergo, Jon resembled Lyanna.  

They had always been close. Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones.  (Arya I in A Game of Thrones)

"Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her." (Arya II in A Game of Thrones)

This is referred to as the 'Stark' look, mostly by people outside the family. But perhaps there is some of Lyanna in Jon that only someone very close to her - someone like Benjen - could recall and identify?

If we look at what Benjen says to Jon about his wishes to join the Night's Watch, his remarks can be taken in more than one way. 

"You are a boy of fourteen," Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son."

Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." (Jon I in A Game of Thrones)

This could be interpreted as 1) a simple warning to Jon that he should know what he is giving up before swearing an oath regarding it, and recognition that Jon's life would be easier as his bastard son rather than Ned's as Catelyn would be less resentful, or 2) Benjen vocalizing his knowledge that Jon is giving up a potential claim to the throne and to further the last remnants of the Targaryen bloodline, and recognition that Jon's life would be easier if he were Benjen's son rather than Lyanna's.  

Ned would not, I think, risk telling Benjen about who Jon is - though without being privy to the conversation they inevitably had after Luwin told Ned that Benjen had spoken to him about taking Jon with him when he returned to Castle Black, we cannot be sure - the years since Robert's war had taught him more caution than he ever had before.  And so that leaves Benjen to puzzle out Jon's heritage on his own - something I think he did.  

[Balerion's Whiskers]

I also think that Benjen had it figured out without Ned telling him. The brothers may have never discussed the situation, but I do believe there was an unspoken understanding. Ned would have never just sat Benjen down and told him. (and Benjen would have known that honorable Ned would have never fathered a bastard) It wouldn't have been in his personality to do so, but I'm like some of the others upthread, Benjen may have known of Lyanna's plans on his own, or even participated in her disappearance. There aren't actual clues that he knew, but if you have read the series enough times, you start to understand how the characters tick. I used to think that Benjen went to the NW because he was complicit in the 'abduction', but when Ned returned as Lord of Winterfell, Robb was already born, so he had an heir and Benjen was free to go to the Wall, which was the honorable thing for a younger Stark brother to do. GRRM gave us the 'what you would be giving up' quote and one other...as Benjen was leaving for the ranging that he never returned from, he told Jon that he would be back before Jon's name day and that they would talk then. I have a feeling that Benjen was intending to tell Jon of his heritage before he took his vows so he could make a choice.

[sweetsunray]

@dornishdame Agreed. I'm not convinced that Ned told Benjen. This is not about the rights of Benjen and Cat to information, but Jon's right to be safe from being killed purely because of his father's identity, a father whodied before he was even born. Jon's right to be safe supercedes anybody else's right to know who he is. Ned seems to feel very strongly about that.

But Benjen could have figured it out, over time, with visits. It's not just how someone looks, but even body language, how someone holds their head, and such. And Benjen could have wordlessly signaled to Ned that he figured it out. Anyhow, both Ned and Benjen are reluctant initially for Jon to join. And Benjen is whisked away on his ranging very soon. It's quite clear that George does not want to keep Benjen around Jon for more than superficial bonding. And imo Benjen acts almost discouraging, at the feast in WF as well as at the Wall itself. Since Jon came voluntarily, he can also voluntarily refrain from making his vow and leave again. It seems to me that Benjen and Ned might have thought his stay at the Wall only a tempory solution. The morning that Benjen leaves on his ranging he says to Jon they'll talk when he returns. I think Benjen intended for Jon to realize who his mother was, before Jon would make any vows, but Benjen of course never returned. Hence this would answer "Did Aemon or Mormont know?" No, they didn't. Although, it's possible that Aemon might have wondered about it. While Aemon would hardly have personally met with Rhaegar, their communication by letter was extensive, and even in letters people have their own "voice" in the choice of expressions and words.

[Gertrude]

to address a couple of comments that came up -

No, I don't think Benjen would have told Mormont or Aemon. There is no need to. As for Benjen joining the Watch as atonement of a sort, it's possible. It could also be as simple as being at an impressionable age and seeing what happened as a result of Lyanna's love. Dead family, civil war - he might have just said nope, not worth the trouble and joined the Wall, which he was interested in anyway. Or it could be a combination of things - I just think that somehow a part of his decision was based on his/Lyanna's actions and the fall out. I haven't settled on what I think is most likely or what even my favorite path would be,

[dornishdame]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

@dornishdame Agreed. I'm not convinced that Ned told Benjen. This is not about the rights of Benjen and Cat to information, but Jon's right to be safe from being killed purely because of his father's identity, a father whodied before he was even born. Jon's right to be safe supercedes anybody else's right to know who he is. Ned seems to feel very strongly about that.

But Benjen could have figured it out, over time, with visits. It's not just how someone looks, but even body language, how someone holds their head, and such. And Benjen could have wordlessly signaled to Ned that he figured it out. Anyhow, both Ned and Benjen are reluctant initially for Jon to join. And Benjen is whisked away on his ranging very soon. It's quite clear that George does not want to keep Benjen around Jon for more than superficial bonding. And imo Benjen acts almost discouraging, at the feast in WF as well as at the Wall itself. Since Jon came voluntarily, he can also voluntarily refrain from making his vow and leave again. It seems to me that Benjen and Ned might have thought his stay at the Wall only a tempory solution. The morning that Benjen leaves on his ranging he says to Jon they'll talk when he returns. I think Benjen intended for Jon to realize who his mother was, before Jon would make any vows, but Benjen of course never returned. Hence this would answer "Did Aemon or Mormont know?" No, they didn't. Although, it's possible that Aemon might have wondered about it. While Aemon would hardly have personally met with Rhaegar, their communication by letter was extensive, and even in letters people have their own "voice" in the choice of expressions and words.

I agree that Ned's primary instinct is to protect Jon; his determination to protect children is demonstrated again in A Game of Thrones as he strives to prevent Robert from sending an assassin after Daenerys, and more particularly when he warns Cersei that he intends to tell Robert that Jaime fathered her children:

The realm could not withstand a second mad king, another dance of blood and vengeance. He must find some way to save the children. (Eddard XII in A Game of Thrones)

"For fifteen years I protected him from his enemies, but I could not protect him from his friends. What strange fit of madness led you to tell the queen that you had learned the truth of Joffrey's birth?"

"The madness of mercy," Ned admitted. (Eddard XV in A Game of Thrones)

We should also remember that the only time we are told that Ned and Robert truly argued in the past was over the deaths of Rhaegar's children:

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

This time, Ned resolved to keep his temper. "Your Grace, the girl is scarcely more than a child. You are no Tywin Lannister, to slaughter innocents." It was said that Rhaegar's little girl had cried as they dragged her from beneath her bed to face the swords. The boy had been no more than a babe in arms, yet Lord Tywin's soldiers had torn him from his mother's breast and dashed his head against a wall. (Eddard II in A Game of Thrones)

Having seen what became of Rhaenys and Aegon, I think Ned was even more determined to protect Jon - he knew what Robert was capable of (he tells Cersei he knows her children are Jaime's before he tells Robert because he knows what Robert will do - and he has known it since her father lay the bodies of Rhaenys and Aegon at Robert's feet).  If that meant that nobody knew who Jon was, that was fine by him.  

Interestingly, it is when he is in the black cells, after Robert's death, that Ned feels a desperate need to speak to Jon. 

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him … pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast. (Eddard XV in A Game of Thrones)

In spite of assurances from Varys that Cersei could be persuaded to allow him to join the Night's Watch, Ned is deeply regretful when thinking of Jon - of all six 'Stark' children, it is Jon that Ned seems keenest to speak to at this time.  This could be a sign that Benjen does not know, and therefore Ned worries that Jon may never find out the truth; equally, it could be a sign that regardless of whether or not Benjen knows, Ned wants to tell Jon himself.  I also wonder how significant it is that this desire to speak to Jon comes after Robert's death, when he can no longer do him harm.  So much is left ambiguous!

I find the idea that Castle Black was a temporary solution an intriguing one - I think that Benjen's timely disappearance is partly a result of his knowledge of the past, and partly a device to ensure that Jon develops his own sense of independence from soon after his arrival at Castle Black.  That said, Ned could have made Benjen agree that Jon could go - but not actually take his vows until a pre-agreed time.  This would allow Jon to remain far away from KL and therefore Robert, while remaining with an adult Stark - and this scenario would also indicate that Ned wanted to tell Jon the truth before he took his vows (which goes back to Benjen's desire for Jon to know what he is giving up before he says the words).

As for Aemon - I believe that he is blind so that he cannot see Jon.  I have a bit of a wild theory that in spite of his Stark looks, there is something in his appearance or manner that - to someone of that blood - screams Targaryen. Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies was always the character I thought he could resemble for many reasons, but I won't get into that now.  

[Balerion's Whiskers]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

"Did Aemon or Mormont know?

I think that is why GRRM made Maester Aemon blind. He may not have been around Rhaegar much, if at all, but he was around many Targaryens in his life. I'm guessing that even though Jon looks like his mother someone as perceptive as Aemon would have seen Targ traits as well.

I don't think he knew...and I don't think Mormont knew, but if it turns out that one of them did, it wouldn't shock me ether.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

Looks like @dornishdame and I came to the same conclusion as to Maester Aemon's blindness. (we cross-posted)

[sweetsunray]

54 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

As for Aemon - I believe that he is blind so that he cannot see Jon.  I have a bit of a wild theory that in spite of his Stark looks, there is something in his appearance or manner that - to someone of that blood - screams Targaryen. Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies was always the character I thought he could resemble for many reasons, but I won't get into that now.

We all have that no? When my mom was younger and I still a child, her colleague teacher who instructed college students on biology joked that he should use us as live examples of genetics. And a lot of our body language (especially hands) is similar too. And yet, my mother also remarked that at times my expression and the way I move reminds her of her father, while other people who know my father also note a resemblance to him if I turn my head in a certain way. It's not just the color of eyes, hair inplant and color, facial features, but the way someone dreams off while looking into the distance, looks up, squints, shrugs a shoulder, steps. My mom recently showed me a picture of my father as a toddler. While the facial resemblance of my father with my grandfather has always been very obvious as adults, the way my father as a toddler looks up at someone standing beside the picture is strikingly the way my grandmother could turn her eyes (cunningly).

So, I agree. If Aemon had not been blind, there surely would have been striking moments that would have been jarring for him. And yet, Aemon was blind, but not deaf. The tone color of a voice, inflection, when to pause could have made Aemon wonder. We know why Aemon wanted the Jade Compendium - to give Jon a hint that Stannis's sword is cold to the touch and thus not Lightbringer. But why did he ask Sam for Dragonkin (history of Targaryens and their dragons)? Did he take it with him on the voyage? Did he leave it for Jon to find some day? At CB Aemon did not yet know of Dany having dragons.

54 minutes ago, dornishdame said:

I find the idea that Castle Black was a temporary solution an intriguing one - I think that Benjen's timely disappearance is partly a result of his knowledge of the past, and partly a device to ensure that Jon develops his own sense of independence from soon after his arrival at Castle Black.  That said, Ned could have made Benjen agree that Jon could go - but not actually take his vows until a pre-agreed time.  This would allow Jon to remain far away from KL and therefore Robert, while remaining with an adult Stark - and this scenario would also indicate that Ned wanted to tell Jon the truth before he took his vows (which goes back to Benjen's desire for Jon to know what he is giving up before he says the words).

Exactly. Ned did not actually intend to be Hand for years and years when he left WF. He took the position to figure out why Jon Arryn was murdered. That was the sole motivation that convinced him to accept, during the discussion he has with Cat and Luwin. He intended to play detective, solve the case and then return to WF. And Ned starts his detective work as soon as he arrives, beginning with questioning Pycelle. Only after he's wounded at the leg and Robert goes hunting, does Ned fully decide he will rule Westeros as Hand for Robert and sabotage the Lannisters from acting as if Westeros is theirs, but not before. He doesn't want a tourney held in his honor. He attempts to keep both daughters from getting embroiled in courtly life. And he resigns when being detective is costing him too much on his principals. He already had to kill a direwolf. One daughter could have been killed. His other daughter would be married to a brutal boy like Joffrey (even if she wants it herself). And agreeing to assassinate a pregnant girl at the other side of Planetos is the last straw for him. That's when he thinks - the hell with the murder mystery, I'm going back home without solving it. Nothing of Ned's thoughts or behavior at KL suggests that Ned intends to remain at KL for longer than is necessary until he solves Jon Arryn's death, not until he sits the IT himself and sends Beric to the Riverlands to arrest Gregor.

So, Cat says he must send Jon away, for he is not of her blood, while Ned is away. It would be folly to take Jon south, so he has to keep him somewhere safe, under the watchful eye of a Stark. Next to WF, the Wall would have been the next best option, and Jon gets a taste of what the Wall is like. As long as he hasn't said his vows without fully knowing who his mother was (and consequentionally his father) no harm is done. But Benjen never returns from his ranging, and Jon says his vows. Let's hope Ned and Benjen had their conversation over "Jon going to the Wall" before the heart tree.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

Well said @sweetsunray I agree with your theories