Is House Florent too weak to make sense?

[The Grey Wolf]

House Florent of Brightwater Keep is an ancient noble family from the Reach. The Tyrells consider them to be a threat and judging by how Ser Eustace Osgrey in D & E includes them amongst the prestigious houses his once married into they are implied to be quite significant. Yet...They can only field 2000 men out of the Reach's more than 50000. WTH?

[Thor Odinson]

Possibly because, if they were serious about contesting with House Tyrell for control of the Reach, they could possibly sway some of the other houses of the Reach to their side. So it isn't a matter of the amount of soldiers which they directly control, but the amount they could potentially garner if they wanted to make a fight of it. And for every one soldier they're able to turn to their side, that's one less soldier the Tyrells would be able to fight them with.

[The Grey Wolf]

1 minute ago, Thor Odinson said:

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Maybe but for the fertile Reach isn't 2000 still too low? That's less than the freaking Umbers or Mormonts for crying out loud!

[Floki of the Ironborn]

32 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Maybe but for the fertile Reach isn't 2000 still too low? That's less than the freaking Umbers or Mormonts for crying out loud!

I agree, the Florents seem way too under-powered, especially since they're listed as one of the Great Houses in one or two of the appendices.

[The Grey Wolf]

Just now, Floki of the Ironborn said:

I agree, the Florents seem way too under-powered, especially since they're listed as one of the Great Houses in one or two of the appendices.

Yeah it really doesn't make sense. At least with the Velaryons we're given an explanation. Maybe the Florents are a similar case?

[Nyrhex]

The Florents are not weak, the fandom simply inflated their importance. They were never one of the strongest Reach houses, but the fandom read too much into a handfull of vague comments and came to the head-canon factoid that they must be a great threat to the Tyrells, otherwise why would Robert have Stannis marry into them after the war?

They are exactly what they seem. A noble house of the Reach of minor importance, and like any other noble house in the Reach they can claim some boold ties to the Gardener kings. Robert did not have Stannis marry into them to threaten the Tyrells, he did it because they were a noble house with a daughter of age and he probably found it funny that she has the hint of facial hair. Same as every house in the North with the Starks, every house in the Stormlands with the Durrandons/Baratheons, etc. They are to the Reach what houses like Cerwyn are to the North. Relatively minor noble houses, a rank below the Lord Paramount, a rank above landed knights and petty lords.

[The Grey Wolf]

Nyrhex

The way they're described implies very much that they are supposed to be one of the principal houses of the Reach and the appendix of AGOT lists them as one of the main houses sworn to house Tyrell.

Also, Stannis's marriage is a threat. That if they aren't loyal (remember the Reach got out of the Rebellion largely unscathed) Robert could replace them with the Florents, who have been known to loudly proclaim their "superior" claim to Highgarden to anyone willing (or not) to hear. Furthermore, Stannis at the time of his marriage was second in line for the throne after the newborn Joffrey, the king's brother, and a war hero. If House Florent was a "relatively minor noble house" as you put it there was no way Stannis would have been married to one of them when there were plenty of other higher-ranking noblewomen he could marry.

[Nyrhex]

46 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Nyrhex

The way they're described implies very much that they are supposed to be one of the principal houses of the Reach and the appendix of AGOT lists them as one of the main houses sworn to house Tyrell.

Also, Stannis's marriage is a threat. That if they aren't loyal (remember the Reach got out of the Rebellion largely unscathed) Robert could replace them with the Florents, who have been known to loudly proclaim their "superior" claim to Highgarden to anyone willing (or not) to hear. Furthermore, Stannis at the time of his marriage was second in line for the throne after the newborn Joffrey, the king's brother, and a war hero. If House Florent was a "relatively minor noble house" as you put it there was no way Stannis would have been married to one of them when there were plenty of other higher-ranking noblewomen he could marry.

The way they're described is a noble house from the Reach, the same as Hightower or Redwyne, but also like Meadows and Serry and Footly. It tells us very little of thier power, which we have from Stannis to be no more than 2,000 swords at best.  Divide the Reach's forces, even if Renly's host of 90,000 included 30,000 from the Stromlands, and you'll see that they are not that large a forces. 60,000/2,000 = 1 in 30 troops. If all houses had 2,000 men, they would be one of the 30 largest houses. But we know that Renly did not even have all of the Reach's houses, and that knocks them down even further. 

The listing of houses in the appendix of AGOT means little. I've gone over how meaningless it is with writing houses like Selmy for the Stormlands, even with their complete lack of any and all importance to the entire history of Westeros aside of literally just Barristan. They were literally added because in AGOT Martin is still working on his world and lists minor an great lords as "principle" houses because he wrote most of those mentioned in the book, and ignored ranks like baron and duke, knight and marquess, etc.

The Starks have houses like Reed or Cerwyn, but not Dustin, which rules the second largest settlement in the North after White Harbor?

The Lannisters have Westerling and Clegane mentioned in the same breath as houses like Crakehall. Westerling is a minor and poor house, the Cleganes are landed knights. 

The Arryns have Baelish, with his little tower, mentioned in the same breath as Royce and other large houses. 

House Tully has house Darry mentioned, even though they were reduced to a minor and weakend house following Robert's Rebellion. House Mooton, which controls a major town however, is left unmentioned. Other houses, major ones, are also missing of the AGOT appendix in the different regions. Houses come and go in an arbitrary way in later appendixes. 

Stannis' marriage to the Florents is not a threat. Robert did not replace Balon after his rebellion, he did not even replace traitor lords such as Connington and Darry. It's 100% a fandom invention. The Florents have no more claim to Highgarden than any of the other Reach houses, and Selyse is the lord's niece. It's such a minor claim that the Baratheons could likely make the exact same claim with all the marriages in the past 300 years alone between noble houses of the Stormlands and Reach. 

So this argument fails on both fronts - The "claim" is meaningless. Not only is it a weak one, it is not needed because Robert could have simply named anyone for the part. And we also know that Robert chose not to revoke a lord's land and titles at any point in time. Not to his own lords such as Connington, who betrayed him during the war, and not to Balon when he crowned himself king. 

 

Now for the last arguemnt: If House Florent was not a major house, why would Stannis marry into them?

Why the hell not? He is lord of Dragonstone. He has the same rank as the Florents, he has 3,000 men from Dragonstone and his vassals. It's a legitimate match between the same rank. Were there other options? Sure. Were there other better options? No, unless you only go with looks. And looks is likely why Robert probably found it funny. There is not other higher-ranking noblewoman to wed. At best you can make a claim that there were slightly stronger houses, but that's semantics.

[Trigger Warning]

A moderately powerful house with a better claim than you is always a threat. 

It's not necessarily about how many men they can field but how many may rally to their cause. The threat is only heightened by Stannis' and Selyse's union. Wealth and influence is power as well. 

[Scorpion92]

I just think that entire purpose of House Florent for the future book is to install Randyll Tarly the new Lord Paramount of the Reach and Lord of Highgarden through his wife Melessa Florent. All throughout books we have heard how Florents have superior claim of Highgarden over Tyrells.

Well, guess what, Randyll will use this superior claim through his wife and get awarded the Reach by Aegon and Jon Connington (if something happens to Alekyne Florent in Oldtown, say, Euron attacks, then Melessa is the new Lady of Brightwater Keep as well).

Kinda similar situation with Roose Bolton and fake Arya Stark. He strengthened his hold over Winterfell through marriage between his son and Stark girl. Only this time, Randyll is already married and has kids with Florent wife. Either Randyll stays Lord of Horn Hill and Lord Paramount of the Reach and gives Highgarden to Dickon Tarly, or he will be lord of both castles. Either way, Jon Connington and Aegon will not mind.

[James Steller]

19 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

I just think that entire purpose of House Florent for the future book is to install Randyll Tarly the new Lord Paramount of the Reach and Lord of Highgarden through his wife Melessa Florent. All throughout books we have heard how Florents have superior claim of Highgarden over Tyrells.

Well, guess what, Randyll will use this superior claim through his wife and get awarded the Reach by Aegon and Jon Connington (if something happens to Alekyne Florent in Oldtown, say, Euron attacks, then Melessa is the new Lady of Brightwater Keep as well).

Kinda similar situation with Roose Bolton and fake Arya Stark. He strengthened his hold over Winterfell through marriage between his son and Stark girl. Only this time, Randyll is already married and has kids with Florent wife. Either Randyll stays Lord of Horn Hill and Lord Paramount of the Reach and gives Highgarden to Dickon Tarly, or he will be lord of both castles. Either way, Jon Connington and Aegon will not mind.

Except Aegon will not possibly succeed. He's got less than five thousand men and no allies that we know of. Why would Randyll side with him?

And House Tarly is powerful but it isn't even the third strongest house in the Reach. There's the Hightowers, the Redwynes, and the Tyrells to consider. Will any of them let Tarly take over without a fight?

[Adam Yozza]

49 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Except Aegon will not possibly succeed. He's got less than five thousand men and no allies that we know of. Why would Randyll side with him?

And House Tarly is powerful but it isn't even the third strongest house in the Reach. There's the Hightowers, the Redwynes, and the Tyrells to consider. Will any of them let Tarly take over without a fight?

Aegon has 10,000 men. I know some were scattered during the botched landing but I don't think it was as many as half the Golden Company was it?

The Hightower's might well take a beating if Euron hits Oldtown which I think he might. Same with the Redwyne's. Their fleet has already been hit pretty hard. With Marg married to Tommen, Loras badly injured and Mace as much an idiot as he seems to be the main Tyrell branch might well go down with House Baratheon of Kings Landing.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I'm also guessing the Florents have a lot less land than Houses like the Karstarks. There are 51 noble houses (or at least important enough to merit mention in the main series) in an area, what, about half or even a third the size of the North? Their territory butts up against the Hightowers and Highgarden, so we know the land itself has to be good and they are almost certainly not in possession of a ton of land.

2000 men seems just fine to me. I'd guess they are a middling reach house, power wise, just based on how many houses are in the reach and the relative size of the forces we can subtract from the biggest vassals and the Tyrells. None of that is really new thinking, just more or less what we can gather from the books.

Trigger Warning had the right of it.

[Scorpion92]

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

Except Aegon will not possibly succeed. He's got less than five thousand men and no allies that we know of. Why would Randyll side with him?

And House Tarly is powerful but it isn't even the third strongest house in the Reach. There's the Hightowers, the Redwynes, and the Tyrells to consider. Will any of them let Tarly take over without a fight?

If Aegon is not going to succeed, what is the point of introducing him so late into the story? To bring Golden Company? He needs to grow powerful in order to be a threat to Dany whenever she invades. That will be second dance of the dragons.

Euron is going to defeat Redwyne Fleet and attack Oldtown and Hightowers. Tyrells will be wiped out next book (except for Loras), so no one will be in position to object when Aegon names Randyll new Lord of Highgarden and Reach's overlord. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, Adam Yozza said:

Aegon has 10,000 men. I know some were scattered during the botched landing but I don't think it was as many as half the Golden Company was it?

The Hightower's might well take a beating if Euron hits Oldtown which I think he might. Same with the Redwyne's. Their fleet has already been hit pretty hard. With Marg married to Tommen, Loras badly injured and Mace as much an idiot as he seems to be the main Tyrell branch might well go down with House Baratheon of Kings Landing.

Ten thousand men make up the Golden Company, but half of them are missing due to their ships being blown off course in a storm. So yes, Aegon's conquering of the Stormlands is being done with five thousand men (something I still think is bizarre).

And also, how many men can the Iron Islands legitimately muster? Especially since their best warriors are all on the Iron Fleet and the Iron Fleet is currently not around. I bet the Hightowers could muster a larger, better armed and better trained group of warriors than anything Euron has left to throw at Oldtown.

[estermonty python]

I view House Forent as a Reach version of House Frey (in terms of ambition; not necessarily in terms of treachery).  Perhaps its an unfair characterization of the entire house, but one man at least - Alester Florent - expertly positioned his family to profit from any misfortune that were to befall the Tyrells.  He married his daughters off to the heads of House Hightower and House Tarly, respectively, and presumably was responsible for marrying off Selyse as well, since her father was dead (its not really clear how old her brother Imry Florent was at the time).  The son of his youngest brother is squiring for the Redwynes in the Arbor right now.  

Basically what they may or may not lack in raw military might they seem to have made up for in cunning marriage alliances; at this point Houses Tarly, Hightower, and Florent are connected through marriage, and the Tyrells may find themselves isolated from their faithful bannermen, if things start to go sour for them.    

[The Grey Wolf]

10 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

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You make a good argument for why House Florent isn't stronger. However, I have to disagree about Stannis's marriage. There were plenty of other higher-ranking noblewomen he could marry. Not Lord Paramount-level but certainly above the Florents. Again, Stannis was the second in line after Joffrey for the throne (at the time of his marriage), the king's oldest younger brother, the Lord of Dragonstone (quite prestigious), Master of Ships, and a hero of the Rebellion. That makes him quite the catch and honestly even with his prickly nature there should have been noblemen fighting for his hand for their daughters. If the Florents were deemed a worthy (or necessary) match though why the hell did Robert or Jon Arryn make him marry Selyse? Why not Delena? She's nicer to look at, younger, and more fertile (not that they would have had any way of knowing the last point at the time).

[Stormking902]

The florents are in the top 5 group of the Reach they field 2000 clavary which is better then 5000 foot so yes they are very powerful. 

[Floki of the Ironborn]

41 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

The florents are in the top 5 group of the Reach they field 2000 clavary which is better then 5000 foot so yes they are very powerful. 

Wait, their 2,000 men are all cavalry? Then what about those infantry at Bitterbridge?

[Stormking902]

I cant remember honestly but I do remember that originally house Florent has 2000 calvary which as I stated before is quite powerful considering other lords calvary strength.