Any sympathy for House Bracken and House Peake?

[The Grey Wolf]

TWOIAF makes GRRM's bias in favor of the Blackwoods and Manderlys IMO so obvious I can't help but feel the need to support the Brackens and Peakes. What says this board? Any fans of Stone Hedge or Starpike here?

[Aetta]

Negatory.  GRRM has stated that this story has it's definite protagonists, and on that front the Brackens get the shit end of the stick.  As they should, their kin's a disgraceful traitor (Bittersteel).

[Duranaparthur]

I think they also suffer from being examples of GRRM deconstructing the ruthlessly ambitious but over-grasping kinds of nobility; we've heard of numerous times that either the Brackens or Peakes had a seemingly final victory over their opponents, only to then presume to much and get stomped down because they couldn't play the long game. It's arguable that both houses are macrocosms of House Lannister if it continued under Tywin's philosophy; dangerous and lethal, but unable to maintain the strong bonds of fellowship and trust required to maintain feudal society because ultimately everyone figures out that they view honor and duty as tools, not rules.

Thats not to say they couldn't be sympathetic or heroic agents of change, but they serve a purpose that unfortunately makes them examples of why feudal morality actually made (some) sense.

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

TWOIAF makes GRRM's bias in favor of the Blackwoods and Manderlys IMO so obvious I can't help but feel the need to support the Brackens and Peakes. What says this board? Any fans of Stone Hedge or Starpike here?

I love the Manderlys and Blackwoods and I also love the Brackens and like the Peaks. 

The writing is definitely in favor of the Blackwoods and Manderlys when it comes to those rivalries but there are hints in the text of the Blackwoods and Manderlys being as vicious, cruel, ambitious as the Brackens and Peaks. 

The Blackwood and Bracken rivalry is my favorite in ASOIAF and I would love to know more about the Peaks. 

[Lion of the West]

3 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

TWOIAF makes GRRM's bias in favor of the Blackwoods and Manderlys IMO so obvious I can't help but feel the need to support the Brackens and Peakes. What says this board? Any fans of Stone Hedge or Starpike here?

Can't say that I am fans of them, both of them are written to be evulz, but I feel sympathy for them in that they are written to be general idiot assholes to a man, or at least that's how it feels. It feels that unlike many other Houses that comes with a mix of good and bad, its all bad for these two and they never got a fair chance.

But like The Wolves I would like to learn more about the Peakes.

[The Grey Wolf]

3 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

The Blackwood and Bracken rivalry is my favorite in ASOIAF and I would love to know more about the Peaks. 

In particular with the Peakes I want to know more about their feud with the Manderlys, what happened to their other two castles (I believe the reason they lost them in the First Blackfyre Rebellion was because Daemon Blackfyre turned one of them into a rival capital from which he could mint his coinage), and what led them to rebel against Maekar I in the Peake Uprising, which was plain ballsy. One house going up against the Iron Throne all by itself? Say what you will about the Peakes but it can't be denied they are tough and do not lack for guts.

As for the Brackens and the Blackwoods I want to know about some of their ancestors that ruled the Trident. Seriously, not a single Blackwood or Bracken King of the Riverlands is mentioned in TWOIAF. Why?!

[Little Scribe of Naath]

28 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

As for the Brackens and the Blackwoods I want to know about some of their ancestors that ruled the Trident. Seriously, not a single Blackwood or Bracken King of the Riverlands is mentioned in TWOIAF. Why?!

Didn't we have that guy Benedict Justman (bastard of both Blackwood and Bracken) who established House Justman? IIRC they were kings of the Trident for a bit. 

That guy sounded really good,btw. 

[The Grey Wolf]

Just now, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Didn't we have that guy Benedict Justman (bastard of both Blackwood and Bracken) who established House Justman? IIRC they were kings of the Trident for a bit. 

That guy sounded really good,btw. 

What I meant was someone who actually has the Bracken/Blackwood name.

I agree Benedict I Justman was awesome though. Sucks his line died out due to the bloody Ironborn. Seriously, I don't get why the rest of the 7K never bothered to put a more permanent end to their deprivations (not supporting genocide or anything like that but getting rid of all those drowned priests and the thralls to rise up would be a good starting point). 

[TheDrunkenGiant]

On 10/7/2016 at 0:39 AM, The Wolves said:

I love the Manderlys and Blackwoods and I also love the Brackens and like the Peaks. 

The writing is definitely in favor of the Blackwoods and Manderlys when it comes to those rivalries but there are hints in the text of the Blackwoods and Manderlys being as vicious, cruel, ambitious as the Brackens and Peaks. 

The Blackwood and Bracken rivalry is my favorite in ASOIAF and I would love to know more about the Peaks. 

I love the Bracken and Blackwood fued as well. I hope we hear more about Otho Bracken in future Dunk and Egg stories. Anyone with the nickname Brute of Bracken and strong enough with a blunted blade to caves someone's helmet and skull in has to be awesome. When someone mentioned he might be at the Whitefalls Tourney, there was a sense of awe and disbeief he would show at such small tourney.

[Lord Varys]

I don't think we can say the Brackens and Peakes are treated all that bad. Bittersteel is technically not a Bracken, just as Bloodraven isn't a Blackwood. They are both legitimized Targaryens.

And with Otho Bracken we clearly seem to have a character who isn't necessarily a bad guy. And TSotD gave us another heroic Bracken, Ser Lyle, who fought against Maegor in the Trial of Seven.

That the Brackens joined the Ironborn against the Durrandons isn't exactly something I would hold against them.

And with the Peakes we only have two foul apples there - Lord Unwin and Lord Gormon. That is not enough to condemn the entire house. Lord Lorimar Peake - who drove the Manderlys out of the Reach at the behest of King Perceon III - could very well have been a hero. The Manderlys became staunch Stark loyalists in the North but their ancestors in the Reach may very well have been grasping and overly ambitious pricks who actually became more than an annoyance for House Gardener.

There are other houses who are basically painted as 'villain houses' - the Boltons foremost among them. Aside from Domeric Bolton there is no sympathetic Bolton around. And the Freys are not much better - most of the present Freys are bad apples, and Walder's sister and father don't come off as very sympathetic in TMK. The sole exception of a positive Lord Frey seems to be Lord Forrest Frey who fought and died during the Dance, as well as the Freys who stood with Prince Aegon against Maegor.

[Apoplexy]

On 10/6/2016 at 10:25 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

TWOIAF makes GRRM's bias in favor of the Blackwoods and Manderlys IMO so obvious I can't help but feel the need to support the Brackens and Peakes. What says this board? Any fans of Stone Hedge or Starpike here?

I am extremely curious about the Peake-Manderly feud. How the Manderlys were driven away and how they managed to find a seat so far north.

[coolsaladgirl93]

TWOIAF is written from an in universe perspective and history is written by the victors. That's one of the points of the story. So I don't think GRRM has a bias against the Brackens but it's necessary for the purpose of TWOIAF to villainize them if it is to hold up to any scrutiny as being an in-universe  text

[Adam Yozza]

4 minutes ago, coolsaladgirl93 said:

TWOIAF is written from an in universe perspective and history is written by the victors. That's one of the points of the story. So I don't think GRRM has a bias against the Brackens but it's necessary for the purpose of TWOIAF to villainize them if it is to hold up to any scrutiny as being an in-universe  text

I agree to an extent but GRRM did write the World book, even if he did so from a subjective, in-universe perspective. I suppose the question is why did he decide to make the Bracken's/Peake's the ones history viewed as villains and not the Blackwood's/Manderly's.

Personally, I have no sympathy for either of them. I'm not a fan of the Bracken's at all; though I do love their fued with the Blackwoods and the dynamic it creates; and while I don't hate the Peakes, I don't particularly like them either. That being said, I've always hated Unwin Peake.

 

[Aegon1FanBoy]

Would not mind more info on the Peake and manderly during the Gardener King days. I do agree it's just they got the short end of the stick and i doubt george will delve that deep into those houses. Heck the valyrians are written as some really nasty set of guys but i'm sure they weren't all that way.

[PrinceHenryris]

I'm still surprised that the Peakes are still around at the time of aSoIaF.  They lost two castles after the first Blackfyre  Rebellion, then Gormy loses his head trying to put Daemon II on the throne.  Go forward a bit and King Maekar takes a rock to the dome during the Peake Uprising.

I can't understand how both Aegon V and  Bloodraven let the Peakes survive.

I tried to post a thread about the Peake's survival a while back but it devolved.

 

[sweetsunray]

The Peakes are dumb entitled opportunists who just love to make trouble. Their rebellion against Maekar was ballsy, but stupid and senseless. Sure, they are often involved with the Blackfyre rebellions, but basically they're always sabotaging it from the get go.

Bittersteel is rounding up Westerosi allies in Essos amongst companies, likely carrying the sword to make them swear allegiance to it. What does Gormy do? Go behind Bittersteel's back, lure Daemon II across the sea without really knowing him, etc.

Their rebellion's timing against Maekar was awful. Despite Maekar's death, Bittersteel didn't even make a move for the crowned Daemon III (Aenys was a sneaky uncle trying to get ahead of his nephew) until years later, because it was such a bad timing of the Peakes.

Who needs an enemy when you have the Peakes as allies. The Peakes are the worst ally you can have. They have the worst timing. They think they can do better than you and snub you along with it, go behind your back, steal your pretender, and in the meantime they totally fuck it up, get your pretender taken prisoner, and now you have to wait until he dies before you can crown his younger brother. Just ask Bittersteel.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

On 10/6/2016 at 11:25 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

TWOIAF makes GRRM's bias in favor of the Blackwoods and Manderlys IMO so obvious I can't help but feel the need to support the Brackens and Peakes. What says this board? Any fans of Stone Hedge or Starpike here?

First i like this feud a lot!

I think that's a Maester's bias though rather than a Martin bias...

We do see the biggest difference seems to be that the Brackens converted to the Faith of the Seven and the Blackwoods kept to the Old Gods of the First Men.

The Bracken's seat is Stone Hedge (ringfort anyone?)

The Blackwoods, it seems, were driven from the North by the Starks. 

Raventree Hall is the seat of the Blackwoods. It has an enourmous dead Weirwood, they blame the Brackens for poisoning... but how the hell do you poison a Weirwood? We know they can be cut down and burned but I think this is the only story of them being poisoned...

Also, if the Blackwoods were driven south by the Starks, who's own heart tree predates Winterfell, how is the Weirwood at Raventree so large? It should have had a shorter lifespan than the one at Winterfell...

It's interesting that arguably the most important members for the or are the Great Bastards from each house... Brynden Rivers and Aegor Rivers. Both of whom were legitimized.

Given that Daemon Blackfyre was legitimized also, I'm not at all convinced that Bittersteel was a traitor or a bad guy. I'm really hoping we meet him in a future Dunk and Egg.

Bloodraven I suspect is a villian... but I know that's not the popular take these days.

Anyway, good stuff...

[sweetsunray]

34 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Given that Daemon Blackfyre was legitimized also, I'm not at all convinced that Bittersteel was a traitor or a bad guy.

I did a House Blackfyre essay several months ago, a historical one more than purely a theorist one, where I arranged the pre-Blackfyre history of Aegon IV and then Blackfyre and Bittersteel in a far more neutral context than maester Yandel's propaganda.

It's kindof ironic how the World Book speculates on Bittersteel just being jealous and bitter against Bloodraven and plummeting Westeros into civil war over supposed "lies"... and yet, Bittersteel lived most of his life in exile, fighting in Essos, for the Blackfyre cause, always respecting the typical inheritance laws of the throne when he crowned a new Blackfyre pretender: sons before the younger brother before the sisters while he was married to a daughter of Daemon Blackfyre. Surely, if it was jealousy and selfishness, then Bittersteel could have tried to put his own children or his wife ahead of her younger brothers, nephews, etc, for decades. But he never did. The sole ones who tried to jump ahead in line was Aenys Blackfyre when Maekar died and Maelys Blackfyre when he challenged the last Daemon Blackfyre who was commander of the GC to a duel. If you look at those actions and choices and how many years it took before Daemon Blackfyre actually called Daeron a bastard (not a son of Aegon IV) I have the impression that Daemon and Bittersteel were quite convinced that Daeron the Good wasn't Aegon IV's son, and they'd only be that convinced if they heard it from a credible witness... I suspect a midwife or handmaid of Naerys. I still think Daeron the Good was the best king the Targs ever produced, but I don't believe all the other "reasons" Yandel puts forward except the glaring missing one - both men came into convincing evidence that even pious queens and brothers are human and make a mistake once in a while. And of course that is carefully avoided in the World Book, because it renders the whole Targaryen line after Daeron a bastard-line, including the grandmother of Robert Baratheon.

Don't think Bloodraven is a villain though for it. He chose the best man for the job, regardless of actually being Aegon IV's son.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

26 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I did a House Blackfyre essay several months ago, a historical one more than purely a theorist one, where I arranged the pre-Blackfyre history of Aegon IV and then Blackfyre and Bittersteel in a far more neutral context than maester Yandel's propaganda.

It's kindof ironic how the World Book speculates on Bittersteel just being jealous and bitter against Bloodraven and plummeting Westeros into civil war over supposed "lies"... and yet, Bittersteel lived most of his life in exile, fighting in Essos, for the Blackfyre cause, always respecting the typical inheritance laws of the throne when he crowned a new Blackfyre pretender: sons before the younger brother before the sisters while he was married to a daughter of Daemon Blackfyre. Surely, if it was jealousy and selfishness, then Bittersteel could have tried to put his own children or his wife ahead of her younger brothers, nephews, etc, for decades. But he never did. The sole ones who tried to jump ahead in line was Aenys Blackfyre when Maekar died and Maelys Blackfyre when he challenged the last Daemon Blackfyre who was commander of the GC to a duel. If you look at those actions and choices and how many years it took before Daemon Blackfyre actually called Daeron a bastard (not a son of Aegon IV) I have the impression that Daemon and Bittersteel were quite convinced that Daeron the Good wasn't Aegon IV's son, and they'd only be that convinced if they heard it from a credible witness... I suspect a midwife or handmaid of Naerys. I still think Daeron the Good was the best king the Targs ever produced, but I don't believe all the other "reasons" Yandel puts forward except the glaring missing one - both men came into convincing evidence that even pious queens and brothers are human and make a mistake once in a while. And of course that is carefully avoided in the World Book, because it renders the whole Targaryen line after Daeron a bastard-line, including the grandmother of Robert Baratheon.

Don't think Bloodraven is a villain though for it. He chose the best man for the job, regardless of actually being Aegon IV's son.

Very well said! 

Im not sure we'll ever get a real answer to all the paternity/inheritance questions... but it is amazing to me how many people side with Bloodraven... 

Forget the tone and the fact that he's a cool character... comparing the deeds of Bloodraven and Bittersteel isn't even close. Even if we call their motivations a wash... Bloodraven breaks every rule in the Old Gods book, Bittersteel is nothing but loyal to his king and fights to the bitter gold skulled end. Bloodraven is exiled by Egg (Egg! If anyone's a good guy I have to believe Egg is) and then abandons his post as Lord Commander on the Wall. Even Harren the Black's brother didn't abandon his post, it's a gods damned shame when the men of the watch are no longer true...

BIAS, says I!!!

 

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

I am both a Bracken and a Peake fan, just as I prefer the Blackfyres to the Targaryens, but not because of that.

From a Doylist perspective, at least, I have a sympathy for the guys who are not liked by the majority because they do not seem "cool". For example, because in AGOT most of us develop a sympathy for weirwoods, we like the Blackwoods, who keep to the old religion and Jonos Bracken joining the Lannisters after Robb's death does not help increase sympathy for Stone Hedge. Yet, nonetheless I feel thare is much more to the Brackens (Ser Lyle was an indication that GRRM does not despise them neither he makes them losers). Same for the Peakes,