NBA 2016-2017 LeBron vs Durant ( and his little helpers)

[Ramsay B.]

Dwyane Wade just hit his 4th 3-pointer of the game. He had 7 all of last year. It was a big one too as Bulls tried but failed to blow a 14 point lead 4th quarter lead, saw enough of that shit last year. Still a good win despite some poor shooting.

[briantw]

3 hours ago, David Selig said:

Draymond Green is a really good low post defender and a very good rim protector. The Warriors played plenty of minutes over the last seasons with Draymond at center and held their own defensively.

I think that's a lineup that works for stretches, but Green isn't big or strong enough to do it for entire games.  Now, that wasn't a problem last year, because they had Bogut and a couple of other NBA-caliber bigs.  This year, they don't have that, and Green can't play the entire game at the five.  

I see it as the same as LeBron at the four.  LeBron can play the four, and he's fucking amazing at it.  But you don't want him playing there full time during the regular season because it would wear him down.

[Relic]

On 10/26/2016 at 0:16 AM, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 

SF: Crowder or Iguodala? I'm not a big fan of Carmelo.

LOL,  Crowder over Melo? I can understand not being a CA fan,  but don't be ridiculous. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 hours ago, sperry said:

 

Because KD offers diminishing marginal utiliity. He's good where they were already good. Meanwhile, they now have no low post defense.

KD is a significant upgrade over Barnes in every measurable way. Barnes' terrible play might be the biggest reason why the Warriors blew the finals. And Bogut was already on the decline and he's an overrated rim protector. Any arguments that the Warriors are worse now than they were before the KD move are flat out laughable.

12 hours ago, David Selig said:

Draymond Green is a really good low post defender and a very good rim protector. The Warriors played plenty of minutes over the last seasons with Draymond at center and held their own defensively.

Green is a great defender, but he's not a rim protector. 

7 hours ago, briantw said:

I think that's a lineup that works for stretches, but Green isn't big or strong enough to do it for entire games.  Now, that wasn't a problem last year, because they had Bogut and a couple of other NBA-caliber bigs.  This year, they don't have that, and Green can't play the entire game at the five.  

Yes and no. You're correct to point out that the lineup of death could only be used for 8-10 minutes per game, but you're wrong to suggest they don't have any bigs now. 

 

Again, quit hyperventilating over a single game. Don't forget that the Big 3 Heat started off 9-8 and at times looked horrible against vastly inferior opposition. The Warriors will be fine. 

[Calibandar]

Durant certainly has looked sterling so far. A player in his prime.

I quite like what I saw from Brandon Ingram at the Lakers as well, he looks like he could be real class.

Very fluent, smooth player and quite effective already.

[David Selig]

8 hours ago, briantw said:

I think that's a lineup that works for stretches, but Green isn't big or strong enough to do it for entire games.  Now, that wasn't a problem last year, because they had Bogut and a couple of other NBA-caliber bigs.  This year, they don't have that, and Green can't play the entire game at the five.  

I see it as the same as LeBron at the four.  LeBron can play the four, and he's fucking amazing at it.  But you don't want him playing there full time during the regular season because it would wear him down.

They wouldn't have to play the whole game this way. They still have Zaza who is a decent centre. Not much of a rim protector but can do a decent job for 20-25 MPG against most teams. They really don't need to have a great defence, just a bit above average will be more than enough given their firepower.

Quote

Green is a great defender, but he's not a rim protector. 

why not? His rim protection stats are great. In last season's playoffs opponents shot only 38,9% when he was defending the rim and he challenged the biggest number of shots at the rim by far of all players in the playoffs - http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!/tracking/player/rim/?PerMode=Totals&sort=DEF_RIM_FGA&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs

His regular season numbers in this area were really good too last season.

[sperry]

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

KD is a significant upgrade over Barnes in every measurable way. Barnes' terrible play might be the biggest reason why the Warriors blew the finals. And Bogut was already on the decline and he's an overrated rim protector. Any arguments that the Warriors are worse now than they were before the KD move are flat out laughable.

Green is a great defender, but he's not a rim protector. 

Yes and no. You're correct to point out that the lineup of death could only be used for 8-10 minutes per game, but you're wrong to suggest they don't have any bigs now. 

 

Again, quit hyperventilating over a single game. Don't forget that the Big 3 Heat started off 9-8 and at times looked horrible against vastly inferior opposition. The Warriors will be fine. 

 

Again, Durant is a huge upgrade over Barnes.  No doubt about it. The problem is where he shines they already had really good players. You can't create 25 more shots per game. Harrison Barnes shot the ball 9.6 times per game. So you get an upgrade on those 9.6 shots per game, but the other 15 shots have to come from Klay and Steph and Draymond.  The Klay and Steph shots are a wash, and you worry about alienating Draymond. Same thing with KD bringing the ball up the court and playing point forward. That's what Draymond does, and he's better at it than KD.

 

And no they really don't have bigs right now. They have the thoroughly mediocre Zaza Pachulia, Javale McGee, and the burnt out corpse of Anderson Varejao. That is a massive downgrade from Andrew Bogut and Festus Ezeli.

 

Again, it's not like I think they're a bad team now. They're clearly one of the 3 best teams in the league, and they could definitely win the championship. I just think they're worse than last year's team, and really don't understand why they were hellbent on changing things up after one of the most successful two year runs in the history of the NBA.

[StefCurry]

12 hours ago, Ramsay B. said:

Dwyane Wade just hit his 4th 3-pointer of the game. He had 7 all of last year. It was a big one too as Bulls tried but failed to blow a 14 point lead 4th quarter lead, saw enough of that shit last year. Still a good win despite some poor shooting.

His game quality only getting better and better in Chicago.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 hours ago, Relic said:

LOL,  Crowder over Melo? I can understand not being a CA fan,  but don't be ridiculous. 

Yeah, I know this is not an objective take, but I sure as hell would rather have Crowder on my team than Melo. Haterade FTW!

[DireWolfSpirit]

This isnt specifically aimed as a Warrior comment, but its something to keep in mind. Just taking for examples sake a collection of 7 various AllStars from a previous season and inserting them on one roster, you would be foolish if you think the seven are going to have similar stats collectively, as a new combined squad. 

Previously they may have all been 20+ ppg players and ball dominant goto guys, all crowded into the same rotation they wont each be able to replicate those roles. A few may remain ball dominant goto guys, a great FT shooter and ball handler may take over as a 4th quarter closer, but out of those other former AllStars a few of them will now have to adapt to the roles of mop up man, screen setters, 3rd and 4th option, inside protection, playmaker, pressing and all the other sacrifices that make the machine run. They are not all going to score 20+ ppg when put together.

The question for the Warriors going forward is not whether they collected some great AllStars, its whether they have improved as a unit that relies on many moving parts and many roles and duties that have to be collectively manned. We know they have shooters, Pistol Pete, AI, Karl Malone, and a long history of people in this league have been able to score, yet its been the Dennis Rodmans, Ben Wallace, Kurt Rambis and Horace Grants that have always been needed to collect rings. Golden State has Green that can fill some of that dirty work role, but as it stands, they are not a collection that I would pick to be able to dethrone Cleveland till I see any evidence they can do more than shoot in flashes. I'm skeptical of how the sum of those parts will work together. At this point I dont think they have improved on what was a really good team, i think they messed with a fantastically smooth engine to make it just a good engine, foolish over micro managing at its best at work there.

The West always looks good on paper, too bad the game is played on the hardwood.

[briantw]

25 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

This isnt specifically aimed as a Warrior comment, but its something to keep in mind. Just taking for examples sake a collection of 7 various AllStars from a previous season and inserting them on one roster, you would be foolish if you think the seven are going to have similar stats collectively, as a new combined squad. 

Previously they may have all been 20+ ppg players and ball dominant goto guys, all crowded into the same rotation they wont each be able to replicate those roles. A few may remain ball dominant goto guys, a great FT shooter and ball handler may take over as a 4th quarter closer, but out of those other former AllStars a few of them will now have to adapt to the roles of mop up man, screen setters, 3rd and 4th option, inside protection, playmaker, pressing and all the other sacrifices that make the machine run. They are not all going to score 20+ ppg when put together.

The question for the Warriors going forward is not whether they collected some great AllStars, its whether they have improved as a unit that relies on many moving parts and many roles and duties that have to be collectively manned. We know they have shooters, Pistol Pete, AI, Karl Malone, and a long history of people in this league have been able to score, yet its been the Dennis Rodmans, Ben Wallace, Kurt Rambis and Horace Grants that have always been needed to collect rings. Golden State has Green that can fill some of that dirty work role, but as it stands, they are not a collection that I would pick to be able to dethrone Cleveland till I see any evidence they can do more than shoot in flashes. I'm skeptical of how the sum of those parts will work together. At this point I dont think they have improved on what was a really good team, i think they messed with a fantastically smooth engine to make it just a good engine, foolish over micro managing at its best at work there.

The West always looks good on paper, too bad the game is played on the hardwood.

Yeah, I think what people kind of overlook is that someone on the Warriors team is going to have to accept a reduced role.  You're not going to see Curry, Durant, and Thompson all get the same amount of shots they got last season.  It's just not realistic.  Given that Thompson is pretty clearly the third best player of the three, he's going to end up being the guy to sacrifice, and I don't know that he's willing to do that.

The team is also going to struggle on the boards.  They got out-rebounded by the Cavs by thirty boards in the Finals last season, and they may have gotten worse in that regard, as they downgraded their bigs.

Much like the Cavs two years ago, they're probably going to have to make a trade or two to address their lack of depth.  The problem is that, unlike the Cavs did, they don't have much in the way of assets.  As I mentioned on a previous page, they can't trade a draft pick prior to their 2019 pick, and that likely won't get much of a return.  Aside from Thompson and Green (I'm assuming they wouldn't entertain trading Curry and Durant is only on a one year deal), they don't have much to trade.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

7 hours ago, sperry said:

 

Again, Durant is a huge upgrade over Barnes.  No doubt about it. The problem is where he shines they already had really good players. You can't create 25 more shots per game. Harrison Barnes shot the ball 9.6 times per game. So you get an upgrade on those 9.6 shots per game, but the other 15 shots have to come from Klay and Steph and Draymond.  The Klay and Steph shots are a wash, and you worry about alienating Draymond. Same thing with KD bringing the ball up the court and playing point forward. That's what Draymond does, and he's better at it than KD.

 

And no they really don't have bigs right now. They have the thoroughly mediocre Zaza Pachulia, Javale McGee, and the burnt out corpse of Anderson Varejao. That is a massive downgrade from Andrew Bogut and Festus Ezeli.

 

Again, it's not like I think they're a bad team now. They're clearly one of the 3 best teams in the league, and they could definitely win the championship. I just think they're worse than last year's team, and really don't understand why they were hellbent on changing things up after one of the most successful two year runs in the history of the NBA.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. One thing I'd like to point out though is it doesn't matter if they each lose a few shots per game if at the same time they each get a lot easier shots. I suspect that after a while they'll start getting a ton of open, easy shots for all 4 star players they have. And their defense will improve too. They won't be able to protect the rim as well as they used to, but they can make up for that by getting more steals and harassing the passing lanes like the Heat did.

 

 

[briantw]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. One thing I'd like to point out though is it doesn't matter if they each lose a few shots per game if at the same time they each get a lot easier shots. I suspect that after a while they'll start getting a ton of open, easy shots for all 4 star players they have. And their defense will improve too. They won't be able to protect the rim as well as they used to, but they can make up for that by getting more steals and harassing the passing lanes like the Heat did.

I think the Heat are a terrible comparison for the Warriors.  LeBron and Wade were absolutely elite defensive players when they put their mind to it.  No one on the Warriors right now is as good as either of those two were on their best day, and the Heat had both of them.  Bosh was really underrated as a defender as well simply due to his length and his mobility for a guy his size.  The Heat were basically able to send a five man squad out there for huge chunks of games with no defensive liabilities.  The Warriors just can't do that with Curry on the floor, and Durant isn't exactly an elite defender on a nightly basis either.

Really, though, the guy they're going to miss the most is Bogut, as he was the guy who was able to make up for the defensive liabilities of the other guys on the floor, as is the case with any great rim protector.  

[StefCurry]

I actually like D.Rose in NYK.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I was surprized at how well the Bulls have looked so early, they look like they have chemistry right now.

N.O. otoh, seems to play below the sum of its parts? Its pretty early, some of these teams were gonna have to see about 10 games out of before we have a picture of what they can do I guess.

[Calibandar]

Well New Orleans are one of the very worst in the league because they are missing both Holiday and Tyreke Evans and those remain out for a while yet. If you look at their starters, they have Anthony Davis, and that's it. I hadn't taken much of a look at their roster pre-season but I didn't realize how poor that team is again. 

T-Wolves two very close losses in games that could have gone either way. In contrast the Thunder have won two close games against the Sixers and Sun respectively, which is not saying much. The dependence on Westbrook is already enormous but this makes sense with Sabonis and Robersons starting and a bench that does not look great either. 

[sperry]

Thunder are playing without two guys who were franchise cornerstones for damn near a decade. We won't know what they're all about until midway through the season or so when they've had a chance to find their identity outside of Westbrook just dominating people.

 

I am a bit curious about how they ended up with 3 of the leagues 4 worst teams in their first 3 games.

[briantw]

14 hours ago, sperry said:

I am a bit curious about how they ended up with 3 of the leagues 4 worst teams in their first 3 games.

Probably just luck of the draw.  I'm betting the NBA has a program that creates their schedules for them, as that seems to be the easiest, smartest way to do it.  They likely just input some parameters, like the number of national TV games they want a given team to have and who is playing on major holidays, and the scheduler takes care of the rest.

[Jaime L]

Judging by the first two games, this is looking like another long season for the Wizards. The $64m man Ian Mahimni isn't even playing for the first month and the $127m man, the late Bradley Beal, is rewarding Ernie Grunfeld's faith in him by putting up an 8 PER out of the gate. 

https://media.giphy.com/media/idFDG3f8uOKE8/giphy.gif

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

On 10/28/2016 at 6:20 PM, briantw said:

I think the Heat are a terrible comparison for the Warriors.  LeBron and Wade were absolutely elite defensive players when they put their mind to it.  No one on the Warriors right now is as good as either of those two were on their best day, and the Heat had both of them.  Bosh was really underrated as a defender as well simply due to his length and his mobility for a guy his size.  The Heat were basically able to send a five man squad out there for huge chunks of games with no defensive liabilities.  The Warriors just can't do that with Curry on the floor, and Durant isn't exactly an elite defender on a nightly basis either.

Really, though, the guy they're going to miss the most is Bogut, as he was the guy who was able to make up for the defensive liabilities of the other guys on the floor, as is the case with any great rim protector.  

Nothing you said here was wrong, other then the first sentence, but you missed my point. I was arguing that they need to play a similar style of defense, not that they could do it on the same level.