Sex and gender in ASoIaF

[Land's End]

(This thread is about POV characters only)

Reading ASoIaF I got the impression Martin likes to play with gender roles in the case female characters but no so much in the case of men. This is kind of sexist towards both men and women though I don’t think Martin does it intentionally. The tomboy trope is simply a lot more common than... well, is there even a name for feminine acting men that isn’t degrading?

A strong argument for why there are more male-acting female characters in ASoIaF is that in a feudal setting it would be more acceptable for a woman to act like a man than for a man to act like a woman. A man who acts feminine in this society would lose power and respect while a woman who tries to act like a man would get ridiculed (Brienne) but at least she’s trying to get into a position of power (Asha).

To break it down:

• Being a man in feudalism = Power
• Being a woman in feudalism = Submission

Therefore, it makes sense for a woman wanting to be a man but not for a man wanting to be a woman.

However, this still doesn’t explain why (except maybe for Sam) there isn’t even one male POV character who wishes he was born female without acting on it.
Sure, acting feminine as a man in TWoIaF would be social and political suicide but why not secretly envy women for how easy their life is (it’s not - but many men think this way) ?

I tried to categorize all POV characters according to whether they act or think opposed to their sex. I only read the series once so feel free to correct me.

According to my analysis there are three female POV characters who act masculine and two who wish they were men at some point of the story.
In contrast, only one male character used to act feminine in the past but doesn’t anymore and one is just generally confusing (Theon). He has an equally confusing female counterpart (Dany) so that makes it even.

The bias gets even stronger if we consider that there are 15 male POVs but only nine female POVs. So five out of nine women act like men or wish they had been born men but only 1 out of 15 (!) male characters used to act kind of girl-ish.

Disclaimer: Categorizing characters like this is overly simplified and enforces stereotypes. However, we can’t talk about and therefore criticize stereotypes without naming them first.

Grey = Thinking/acting fits sex
White = Thinking/acting doesn't fit sex
Orange = Unsure

Character	Thinking	Acting
Arianne	Feminine, envies Quentyn	Feminine
Arya	Masculine	Masculine
Asha	Masculine	Masculine
Brienne	Masculine	Masculine
Catelyn	Feminine, envying men though not as often as Cercei	Feminine
Cercei	Wants to be a man	Feminine
Dany	Confusing	Feminine
Melisandre	Feminine	Feminine though she gets frowned upon for taking part in battles so she’s breaking gender roles
Sansa	Feminine	Feminine

 

Character	Thinking	Acting
Aero	Masculine	Masculine
Aeron	Masculine	Masculine
Arys	Masculine	Masculine
Barristan	Masculine	Masculine
Bran	Masculine (for a child)	Masculine (for a child)
Davos	Masculine	Masculine
Eddard	Masculine	Masculine
Jaime	Masculine	Masculine
JonCon	Masculine	Masculine
Jon Snow	Masculine	Masculine
Quentyn	idk	Masculine, I guess
Samwell	Leaning towards feminine	Transitioning from feminine to masculine
Theon	Strange mixture of aggression and sexism which is considered masculine but also overly emotional, which is considered feminine	Overly masculine, trying to compensate feminine traits (?), may have been emasculated by force
Tyrion	Masculine	Masculine
Victarion	Masculine	Masculine

 

[Land's End]

Quoting the people who participated in the discussion when it started in this thread:

1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said:

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1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

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2 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

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3 hours ago, Lady of Whisperers said:

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[Philokles]

The standard Westerosi view of both masculinity and femininity is very limiting. Men are expected to be macho and brave on the battlefield, whilst women are meant to submissive and churn out heirs. One of the privileges for men is a little more flexibility, especially if they join the Citadel or the faith. This leaves a lot of behaviour that is not deemed suitable for either men or women. A man not matching the standards of masculinity is not necessarily feminine, just as a woman not following the standard of femininity does not have to be masculine.

One of the problems with your view, I think, is the strict categorisation of the (especially female) characters into either masculine or feminine in their thinking and acting. Although you have some down as being confusing, this division still seems overly simplistic. For example, although Arya often acts in what would be seen as a stereotypically masculine manner, and often in areas in which suit neither, she also sometimes thinks and acts like a Westerosi woman would be expected to. George’s characters seem far too complex to categorise them into one of two divisions with a small slice of ground in the middle.

So while a number of men in the series are hostile to or sceptical of the Westerosi definition of masculinity, there is a huge amount of other ways of acting that they can take, without falling into the incredibly restricted role designated for women. All the women who reject their society determined role, you classify as acting in a masculine manner which isn’t really the case.

[Land's End]

1 hour ago, Horse of Kent said:

One of the problems with your view, I think, is the strict categorisation of the (especially female) characters into either masculine or feminine in their thinking and acting. Although you have some down as being confusing, this division still seems overly simplistic. For example, although Arya often acts in what would be seen as a stereotypically masculine manner, and often in areas in which suit neither, she also sometimes thinks and acts like a Westerosi woman would be expected to. George’s characters seem far too complex to categorise them into one of two divisions with a small slice of ground in the middle.

I totally agree, it is overly simplistic. No one acts 100% feminine or masculine. It's a spectrum. To make it even more complicated whether an action is perceived as feminine or masculine also depends on concept of gender of the society it’s performed in. The same action carried out by the same person can be considered masculine in France and feminine in China.

However, if you want to analyze something on a comparative  level you need to simplify first, then you can discuss the details. If you only discuss individual characters you never get an overview. First you distance yourself from the object and then you go closer again.

Until I made this categorization I never noticed that there are 15 male POV characters and only 9 female POV characters. I always thought the ratio was around 11/13. This doesn't tell me anything about individual characters, but it's still an interesting insight, especially regarding my own perception.

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All the women who reject their society determined role, you classify as acting in a masculine manner which isn’t really the case.

I'm not classifying anything. This isn't my take on the characters. I'm trying to retrace how their actions and thinking would be perceived in Westeros. I'm open to other suggestions.

Quote

Although you have some down as being confusing, this division still seems overly simplistic. For example, although Arya often acts in what would be seen as a stereotypically masculine manner, and often in areas in which suit neither, she also sometimes thinks and acts like a Westerosi woman would be expected to.

I agree - Arya has feminine traits. She gets pretty pissed when Syrio calls her a boy. But could you name one male POV character who goes against gender roles to the the same extend she does? I'm not saying Arya acts 100% masculine or that she is 100% masculine. What I'm saying is that in the society she lives in her behavior is perceived as more masculine than acceptable - which doesn't exclude her from having feminine traits.

Of course Martin’s characters are too complex to fit in such a chart. If this chart could represent them he wouldn’t need to write seven books and could start handing out excel sheets instead. This categorization is meant as a starting basis for the discussion, not the final result.

I’d really like to hear you suggestions for male POV characters who subvert gender roles to the same extend as Arya, Asha and Brienne do.

[Annara Snow]

What exactly do you describe as "feminine" or "masculine" behavior or thinking? What does it even mean?

Let's look at some of the characters you mentioned. In fact, let's look at just two, who also happened to be married to each other.

You categorize Catelyn as "feminine" in thinking (although you add that she "envies men" - which I don't remember she ever did) and "feminine" in acting.

Let's break down Catelyn's character. She:

- has a strong sense of duty and does best to fulfill her required societal role

- is very devoted to her family and loves them deeply, they are her primary motivation

- plays an active role in politics and diplomacy and gives her son political advice

- is very protective of her children

- married out of duty, but faithful to her husband and has grown to love him

- is religious

- has very traditional ideas about raising children and how they should learn to behave

- is in favor of peace as the better solution, but if needed, will give war advice to her son

- is not a warrior, but doesn't hesistate to physically fight if she needs to defend herself or someone she loves

- will on occasion make impulsive and controversial decisions that seem right at the time, like kidnap/arrest a suspect for her son's murder, release a prisoner to negotiate a hostage exchange, without asking her husband or son

-  in her POVs, has shown no noticeable interest in arts, fashion, hunting/hawking, tournaments or any leisurely pursuits

 

Now, let's look at Ned Stark, whom you classified as thinking and acting masculine. He:

- has a strong sense of duty and does best to fulfill his required societal role

- is very devoted to his family and loves them deeply

- is also devoted to his best friend Robert and his late father figure Jon Arryn

- plays an active role in politics, as is required of him by his social station

- is very protective of his children

- is also very protective of children in general, and has time and again opposed murder of children and/or tried to save them

- married out of duty, but faithful to his wife and has grown to love her

- has very traditional ideas about raising children and how they should learn to behave, but is more lenient than his wife and will make exceptions to, say, let his daughter learn swordsmanship, though he expects it to be just a hobby she would eventually give up

- will participate in war if he needs to, but has never shown any particular interest or enjoyment in fighting or battle as such

- in his POVs, has shown no noticeable interest in arts, fashion, hunting/hawking, tournaments (which he considers a waste of resources) or any leisurely pursuits

 

...Could you maybe elaborate some more on what exactly "thinking masculine/feminine" and "acting masculine/feminine" means?

 

 

[Land's End]

23 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

What exactly do you describe as "feminine" or "masculine" behavior or thinking? What does it even mean?

Let's look at some of the characters you mentioned. In fact, let's look at just two, who also happened to be married to each other.

You categorize Catelyn as "feminine" in thinking (although you add that she "envies men" - which I don't remember she ever did) and "feminine" in acting.

-...-

...Could you maybe elaborate some more on what exactly "thinking masculine/feminine" and "acting masculine/feminine" means?

 

 

Look you can all criticize my chart as overly simplistic and then go on to describe single characters in detail to prove that they all have feminine and masculine traits - I agree. I said it in the opening post. My question is: Are these characters perceived as masculine or feminine? Is Ned mistaken for a woman like Brienne and Arya are mistaken for boys/men? I think not.

I already tried to explain my categorization. I’m trying to reconstruct the perception of femininity and masculinity in Westeros and I’m open for suggestions since I only read the series once. It’s not my own take on the characters.

Cat and Ned are both very balanced characters. I classified Cat as feminine because she sees herself foremost as a mother. After Ned’s death she often thinks about how men won’t listen to women, how women want peace while men want war and how Robb won’t listen to her while he would have listened to Ned. Sure, she’s also fierce, she kidnaps Tyrion and walks into Renly’s camp to lecture him an Stannis. But in general she blends into society as a woman. She doesn’t stick out like Arya, Asha and Brienne do. These three are constantly reminded by others that they aren’t acting the way they should as women. So far no one could name a male POV character to whom this would apply.

I also can’t think of a male character who constantly obsesses over how he should have been born with teats the way Cercei obsesses over not having a dick.

My proposition is that overall it’s a little unbalanced, not that single characters are lacking in complexity.

 

[Joy Hill]

I disagree with some of your classifications. Brienne's thinking is not "masculine". She loves songs, dancing, being treated like a lady, she pines after handsome men in a very maidenly way, is maternal and nurturing towards children and vulnerable people. . . She's a girly girl who loves swordfighting and tales of knights and ladies, but was told by society that she's not fit to be a lady, so she took on the role of a knight. But there's nothing particularly "masculine" about her personality IMO.

If we say that Arya and Asha are not "feminine", we could also say that Tyrion is not " masculine" : he fails to be considered a proper manly man, is not particularly eager to take the role of a warrior.

I don't think you can divide human beings between "feminine" and "masculine" people. These terms are too vague, we all interpret them differently (I personally don't think sexism is "masculine") and people are too complex. 

That being said, GRRM being male, it's very well possible that he's more comfortable writing male characters, just like a female writer might be more comfortable writing female characters (though I think he generally writes women well, despite occasionaly finding a few things off about his female characters).

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, Land's End said:

I’d really like to hear you suggestions for male POV characters who subvert gender roles to the same extend as Arya, Asha and Brienne do.

Off the top of my head Ned, Jaime, Jon, Tyrion, Quentyn, Sam, Theon and Aeron sit uncomfortably with the ideal of Westerosi manliness in varying ways. All of which is less noticeable than with a few female characters, because of male privilege in a patriarchal society which gives them a greater scope to do as they wish, and pigeonholes women closely into their unenviable role.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

38 minutes ago, Land's End said:

Look you can all criticize my chart as overly simplistic and then go on to describe single characters in detail to prove that they all have feminine and masculine traits - I agree. I said it in the opening post. My question is: Are these characters perceived as masculine or feminine? Is Ned mistaken for a woman like Brienne and Arya are mistaken for boys/men? I think not.

I already tried to explain my categorization. I’m trying to reconstruct the perception of femininity and masculinity in Westeros and I’m open for suggestions since I only read the series once. It’s not my own take on the characters.

Cat and Ned are both very balanced characters. I classified Cat as feminine because she sees herself foremost as a mother. After Ned’s death she often thinks about how men won’t listen to women, how women want peace while men want war and how Robb won’t listen to her while he would have listened to Ned. Sure, she’s also fierce, she kidnaps Tyrion and walks into Renly’s camp to lecture him an Stannis. But in general she blends into society as a woman. She doesn’t stick out like Arya, Asha and Brienne do. These three are constantly reminded by others that they aren’t acting the way they should as women. So far no one could name a male POV character to whom this would apply.

I also can’t think of a male character who constantly obsesses over how he should have been born with teats the way Cercei obsesses over not having a dick.

My proposition is that overall it’s a little unbalanced, not that single characters are lacking in complexity.

 

I think before you categorize people as 'feminine' or 'masculine', you need to take a step back and decide what are the requirements for feminine or masculine thinking/behaviour, and thus mention why you categorize some people as masculine and some as feminine (i.e. which actions or thoughts might make characters feminine, and which make them masculine). You even state in your disclaimer that you can't discuss stereotypes without naming them first, so NAME them.

You do mention one reason the perception in their society. As mentioned before quite often, women have a much more defined role in this society, while men are more free to pursue their own goals. Therefore, it is way easier to break the female stereotype than it is to break the male stereotype, which is why every female POV seems to at least somewhat break stereotype, while the male POV's don't really. Therefore, how the characters are perceived is (in my eyes) an invalid reason for classification.

You also make a distinction between thinking and acting, but don't do a lot with it. As explained by Joy Hill much better than I could, Brienne might act masculine (if fighting is indeed a masculine thing to do), but that doesn't mean she thinks masculine. In fact, she wishes she was MORE feminine. The only character wishing to be born a different gender is Cersei, though even in her case it might be more for power's sake than it is for being a man's sake. I don't think you need a male parallel for that.

And lastly, what do you mean by confusing? You use it for Dany and Theon, but you never make clear what you mean by it.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Westeros is patriarchal society, so there's nothing senseless or unrealistic about there being more women envying or wishing they were men than the other way around. It's not about who has it easier, but who has more autonomy.

As for gender roles, which is a separate issue to the one above, I do think it tends to be explicitly examined more through female characters than male characters, in media, in general, and this series is no exception. I think this is because masculinity is more valued than femininity, so it's much harder to get people to create male characters that are overwhelmingly feminine.

[The Princess of Ghosts]

14 hours ago, Joy Hill said:

I disagree with some of your classifications. Brienne's thinking is not "masculine". She loves songs, dancing, being treated like a lady, she pines after handsome men in a very maidenly way, is maternal and nurturing towards children and vulnerable people. . . She's a girly girl who loves swordfighting and tales of knights and ladies, but was told by society that she's not fit to be a lady, so she took on the role of a knight. But there's nothing particularly "masculine" about her personality IMO.

I couldn't agree more. She is a girl, a woman whose body does not fit the Westerosi standards for female bodies, thus making her feel uncomfortable and anxious when she needs to perform activities considered exclusively feminine, which most mistake for hatred. She doesn't want to be a knight because she wants to conquer, kill and command, but because she wants to protect and serve the right cause (the true essence of knighthood, however romanticized). 

As to feminine traits in male characters all I can think of is Renly's passion for clothes (which is not a strictly feminine thing, IMHO, as in history clothes are considered more of a symbol of status/wealth and not 'i'm too macho to wear shoes in my castle so i'll wear dirty riding boots')

[Annara Snow]

16 hours ago, Land's End said:

Look you can all criticize my chart as overly simplistic and then go on to describe single characters in detail to prove that they all have feminine and masculine traits - I agree. I said it in the opening post. My question is: Are these characters perceived as masculine or feminine? Is Ned mistaken for a woman like Brienne and Arya are mistaken for boys/men? I think not.

I already tried to explain my categorization. I’m trying to reconstruct the perception of femininity and masculinity in Westeros and I’m open for suggestions since I only read the series once. It’s not my own take on the characters.

Cat and Ned are both very balanced characters. I classified Cat as feminine because she sees herself foremost as a mother. After Ned’s death she often thinks about how men won’t listen to women, how women want peace while men want war and how Robb won’t listen to her while he would have listened to Ned. Sure, she’s also fierce, she kidnaps Tyrion and walks into Renly’s camp to lecture him an Stannis. But in general she blends into society as a woman. She doesn’t stick out like Arya, Asha and Brienne do. These three are constantly reminded by others that they aren’t acting the way they should as women. So far no one could name a male POV character to whom this would apply.

I also can’t think of a male character who constantly obsesses over how he should have been born with teats the way Cercei obsesses over not having a dick.

My proposition is that overall it’s a little unbalanced, not that single characters are lacking in complexity.

 

As Ser Scott Malkinson pointed out, you've failed to explain what exactly constitutes "masculine" and "feminine" characteristics, simply assyming that everyone is on board with what they are. If your criteria is "perceived as masculine/feminine", it doesn't explain your categorization of masculine or feminine "thinking".

If your criteria for the latter is "does someone think of themselves as a man/woman", it doesn't explain why you categorized, say, Dany or Theon as "confused". How are they exactly "confused" in the matter of their gender? There's absolutely no confusion I can see on Dany's part, and Theon is not confused about being male - Ramsay tries to emasculate but also dehumanize him in general, so Reek is not always sure he is a man, but not in the sense of thinking of himself as a woman, but in the sense of thinking of himself as sub-human, as Ramsay tried to make him. In terms of pre-Reek Theon, he is only perceived as not masculine enough by the Ironborn, or Balon specifically. Everybody in other parts of Westeros perceives him as just as masculine as any other man. Balon thinks that dressing lavishly and beautifully makes you feminine; no one in any other part of Westeros would agree, because, just like in the real European Middle Ages, dressing lavishly and beautifully is a prerequisite for a noble in order to denote his status.

And, as Joy Hill pointed out, even if we accept your categorizations of "masculine" or "feminine" thinking, categorizing Brienne as "masculine thinking" makes very little sense. As per traditional ideas of what is feminine and masculine, Brienne is extremely feminine-thinking. She's most similar to Sansa in that respect.

I've also demonstrated above how similar Cat and Ned are in many respects, but you insist that Cat is "feminine thinking" because she thinks like a mother. Well, Ned thinks as a father and his role as a father is of utmost importance (especially with how many of his decisions are motivated by the desire to protect children - not just his own, or his nephew/adopted son Jon, but also Daenerys and her baby or Cersei's children - or his outrage at the murders of Rhaegar's children). What exactly is the difference between Cat thinking like a mother and Ned thinking like a father? How does one make Cat "feminine" and the other Ned "masculine"? In fact, it's the same thing- it's thinking like a parent. They are both very parental. If you really want to make a difference between "motherly" and "fatherly", you would have to rely on archetypes of Mother and Father, which Erich Fromm used as shorthands for different types of parental love and love in general in his "At of Loving", and which are also a part of the Faith of the Seven. But according to these archetypes, Mother is supposed to represent mercy and unconditional love, while Father is supposed to represent justice and a more judgemental and sterner type of love that is focused on trying to make a child become a better person/fulfill certain expectations. Does this distinction work for Cat and Ned? Not at all. As a matter of fact, Cat is the sterner one who insists on her children fitting into expectations (she loves Arya, but she insists on her learning to act like a lady, more than Ned does) while Ned is more lenient and willing to indulge his tomboy daughter who reminds him of his sister. Ned is also the one whose major decisions are driven by mercy, more than any other character (his crucial mistakes are motivated by the desire to spare Cersei's children, and to spare Robert on his deathbed). While Cat is against war and does not support revenge as a course of action, her POV still show her experiencing feelings of violent desire for revenge, which she admits on a couple of occasions. We never had anything like that with Ned. And, while this is not a matter of character traits but the situations the characters are put in, it's worth noting that GRRM puts Ned in situations where he has to protect his children by lying (his adopted son/nephew Jon by lying about his parentage, and, in the last moment of his life, protecting his daughter Sansa by lying about Joffrey's parentage), and Cat in situations where she has to protect her children by violent physical action: she fights, literally with her bare hands, the catspaw assassin in order to protect Bran, and, in the last moments of her life, tries to save Robb by taking Walder Frey's grandson hostage and threatening to slash his throat (and ends up doing that just before she is killed).

You say that your criteria for "feminine thinking" is that, say, Cat thinks of herself as a woman, and thinks about women in general and her  position as a woman in society etc. (When did Cat think that "men want war and women want peace"? I don't remember her ever generalizing about men and women like that. In fact, she says quite the opposite, when Karstark offers that stereotype that women are "gentle", and Cat retorts by pointing out Cersei Lannister. Or maybe saying that she could do terrible things if she got her hands on Cersei - or both. Her wording was ambiguous: "Give me Cersei Lannister, Lord Karstark, and I will show you how gentle women can be".) Then how are Arya or Asha "masculine" in their thinking? Asha thinks of herself as a woman, thinks about how ridiculous misogynistic men are who use the C word as an insult, thinks about the ways that she has been able to assert her authority in a society like that of the Ironborn and is aware that the mwn who serve her either see her as a daughter figure, or want to have sex with her. Arya thinks of herself as a girl and hates being mistaken for a boy, and argues proto-feminist ideas such as that "The woman is important, too!"

[GyantSpyder]

Interesting topic! It's unfortunate that it's constrained to just POV characters, as that introduces an additional confounding factor relative to depictions of characters in the world (and that it leaves out Hot Pie and Rhaegar and such), but it makes sense.

I think if we're thinking about people who think or act "opposed to their sex," we should cast a bit of a wider net than a male/female gender binary. Also, other people might disagree, and it's kind of a subjective call, but I tend to think heternormativity ought to be counted as a dimension of conforming gender performance.

Some Initial Thoughts on Asymmetry

It seems like non-gender-conforming woman in ASOIAF (and perhaps in various cultures IRL, maybe, but that's not the important part) seems more likely to be seen as performing "maleness" than a non-gender-conforming man is to be seen as performing "femaleness." To take it outside the POV example, Loras Tyrell is absolutely not gender-conforming. He's surrounded by flowers, he's pretty and groomed and androgynous, he is attracted to, in love with, and has sex with men, especially Renly. But because he is a knight and fights in battles and wears armor, and because he's effective, he's seen as masculine.

And I think this speaks to three things:

- The dominance of a specific masculine paradigm as a default identity in hegemonic discourse.

- Non-continuous, asymmetrical identification - like how in America people who have even one Black ancestor are historically seen as Black - if you perform a continuity or range of gender identity aspects, they are not all weighed equally in how you see yourself and how others see you. 

- Toxically reductive violence as masculine - that is, how violence and the political impetus to violence are masculinizing even when they are authentic to the interiority of women or inauthentic to the interiority of men. (This is a huge, huge theme in Martin's other work as well.)

That is, if violence has a male identity, and if violence is forced on people, then "maleness" is forced on people. 

I'm not sure there's an intuitive "opposite phenomenon" to masculinizing violence. There's a feminizing subjugation that women experience, but it doesn't intuitively read as symmetrical. Love and marriage might make a case for it, but seeing love and marriage as feminine doesn't come as easily or as intuitively as feminine as violence comes as masculine.

An Example

One big event that I think highlights this is Jon Snow and Ygritte in the cave. Why can't they stay in the cave forever? Why do they get forced out of the cave (because the reality of violence coerces them to live what from that frame of reference would be seen as inauthenically, but in the broad post-modern frame of reference becomes indistinguishable from authentic identity)? Caves in literature are big yonic symbols and by and large feminine spaces. And It's not seen contemporarily in the West as such, perhaps, but in a lot of cultures in recent generations, "the Lord's kiss" has generally been seen as a feminizing act. Sure, "bangin' a smokin' redhead" by our interpretation can comfortably be seen as masculine, but there's also a consideration that if Jon really does want to "stay in the cave" forever in that moment, then he is yearning for a feminine gender expression, relative to masculinizing violence.

Then, if Jon can be said to be entering or performing an aspect of the feminine in going into the cave with Ygritte, is this is an uncomfortable idea, why is it? Is it because feminine identity must needs be linked to subjugation to the masculine? Is it because it runs counter to more comfortable hegemonic narratives about masculinization and feminization? Are we uncomfortable with a "feminine" Jon, whether we support it or no? Is it because pretty naked male bodies in erotic submissive repose get kind of retconned as masculine because "sexual success" speak so loudly in a masculine paradigm?

Other Confounding Factors

One thing that the women in ASOIAF seem to do pretty often that the men never do is wear clothes from this other gender. That certainly makes things simple, and Shakespeare's influence looms large over all of it.

One confounding factor in Shakespeare is that you much more often have female characters wearing male characters clothes than the other way around because the actors were all male - and thus you were looking at men wearing women's clothes constantly throughout the show. That gets left out when you consider the scripts outside the context of their original production (which is very different from how they were written. very much as working documents).

And a lot of our ideas of medieval and post-medieval gender-bending are highly influenced by Shakespeare, but use female actors. Shakespeare's work has lots of gender asymmetries, but we end up with different ones because of that extra context.

But it might also be a mistake to conflate fashion conformity with gender conformity since the norms in fashion for what is masculine and what is feminine are so different from what they are today - industrial clothing manufacture, and with it a huge bunch of changes in class signaling that affected gender signaling, as well as the introduction of industrially produced military uniforms - really changed this a lot. So a male character could be performing female gender, gender-nonconforming or gender camp in how he dresses and we wouldn't necessarily know it - Varys is the obvious case for it, but there are a lot of others - men in sumptuous outfits that are acceptable as masculine dress, but which might hint at a different gender identity, were the POV character savvy enough to see and understand it (which they often aren't).

And it is all further complicated by the ton of mystery around these characters, even the POV ones, not really knowing the past or future of a lot of the characters. For example, it seems reasonably likely that Victarion was sexually abused by his brother Euron and may even be currently having sex with his brother in disguise, but we don't really know these things for certain. My lean is to not read Victarion as strictly masculine-conforming for these reasons (because he's not heteronormative, albeit involuntarily - but a lot of chracters don't do these things out of what we would be comfortable calling "choice"), but it's not clear.

I would also hesistate to call Areo Hotah masculine-performing, as we know very little about his sex life, and when an older man deeply invested in martial culture is conspicuously unmarried or disinterested in women, but hasn't taken a vow of chastity, there very well may be a form of camp going on - as with The Blackfish.

But we really just don't know much at all about Areo Hotah, so I'll split the difference on those two and only go with half of Victarion.

And what the hell is Aeron, even?

I don't think Quentyn and Jon Con are internally masculine-conforming, Quentyn because he wants so badly to be domestic (just as Rhoyno-Dornish femininity is relatively more violent and politically oriented than Andal femininity, Rhoyno-Dornish masculinity seems to be relatively more concerned with caring for children, with both Doran and Quentyn talking about it), and Jon Con because he is in love with Rhaegar and is performing an inauthentic, campy imitation of fatherhood.

Melisandre is an interesting case - she seems to have a feminine interiority, but her external performance of female gender is super camp (like, drag show camp), and not that related to her interiority. Plus, she might not even be a living human being, and it is funny that someone can be authentically a woman, but not authentically a person. So she probably shouldn't count among any list of characters who conform to their expected gender identity in the conventional way that, say, Ned, Sansa or Stannis do.

And I think in general it's important to understand the narcissistic side of Jaime and Cersei's sexual relationship - that really it isn't about having a heterosexual relationship with someone else, but is really a form of having sex with yourself, and as such the relationship is a bit androgynous and not fully cisnormative.

Another Version of the Table

With all this in mind, and not to intend to contradict the original table (because masculine vs. feminine is still interesting and meaningful), Here's a table based not on a gender binary, but on "conforming" vs. "non-conforming." I can't figure out how to fix the shading.

And also keep in mind that almost every character has some time or place where they are gender non-conforming in some way (Arianne and her "masculine" political ambitions comes to mind), so there's a lot of wiggle room in this and a lot of it is debatable. But I don't think you need to wait until you have "strict definitions" to talk about any of this - because in gender, such things don't exist.

From this eyeballing, for interiority, 6 out of 9 female POV characters have gender-conforming interiority, and 10 out of 15 male POV characters have gender-conforming interiority, which is roughly equivalent. And I think that rings true - lots of characters of both genders have interior conflict with their gender.

For exterior performance (which I define as not just how you dress but also your sex life and taking action in the world), I had 4 of 9 women conforming and 11 out of 15 men.

This to me speaks to an interesting dichotomy -

- Female POVs in ASOIAF are under relatively more pressure or have relatively more incentive to act in un-feminine ways - they are less feminine by the definitions of society than they would be if they went by their own preferences.

- Male POVs in ASOIAF are under relatively more pressure or have relatively more incentive to act in conforming masculine ways - they are more masculine by the definitions of society than they would be if they went by their own preferences.

 

Female Character	Feminine-Conforming Interiority	Feminine-Conforming Performance
Arianne	Yes	Yes
Arya	No	No
Asha	No	No
Brienne	Yes	No
Catelyn	Yes	Yes
Cercei	No	No
Dany	Yes	No
Melisandre	Yes	Yes
Sansa	Yes	Yes

 

Male Character	Male-Conforming Interiority	Male-Conforming Performance
Aero	Yes	Yes
Aeron	Yes	Yes
Arys	Yes	Yes
Barristan	Yes	Yes
Bran	Yes	Yes
Davos	Yes	Yes
Eddard	Yes	Yes
Jaime	No	No
JonCon	No	Yes
Jon Snow	Yes	Yes
Quentyn	No	Yes
Samwell	No	No
Theon	No	No
Tyrion	Yes	Yes
Victarion	Yes	No

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I believe the answer lies in this small extract:

“He was going to be a knight,” Arya was saying now. “A knight of the Kingsguard. Can he still be a knight?”
“No,” Ned said. He saw no use in lying to her. “Yet someday he may be the lord of a great holdfast and sit on the king’s council. He might raise castles like Brandon the Builder, or sail a ship across the Sunset Sea, or enter your mother’s Faith and become the High Septon.” But he will never run beside his wolf again, he thought with a sadness too deep for words, or lie with a woman, or hold his own son in his arms.
Arya cocked her head to one side. “Can I be a king’s councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?”
“You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.”

The 'male' box is much, much wider and capable to contain a considerably ampler range of individualities than the 'female' one. Simple as that, I think.

[Moving Watch]

That’s a good point. And it fits my line of thinking being oriented rather towards role models than „gender conformig thinking and performing“, because the last one is indeed so vague it leads to confusion in the end. That’s why I propose a rodel model oriented approach to the gender question.

The „classical role models“ in Westeros can be seen represented in the seven aspects of the Faith. According to the Wiki of Ice and Fire, they are...

–      Father, or the Father Above, representing judgment. He is depicted as a bearded man who carries scales, and is prayed to for justice.

–      Mother, or the Mother Above, representing motherhood and nurturing. She is prayed to for fertility or compassion, and is depicted as smiling with love, embodying the concept of mercy.

–      Warrior, representing strength in battle. He is prayed to for courage and victory. He carries a sword.

–      Maiden, representing innocence and chastity. She is usually prayed to to protect a maiden's virtue.

–      Smith, representing crafts and labor. He is usually prayed to when work needs to be done, for strength. He carries a hammer.

–      Crone, representing wisdom. She carries a lantern and is prayed to for guidance.

–      Stranger, representing death and the unknown. Worshipers rarely seek favor from the Stranger, but outcasts sometimes associate themselves with this god.

I think we might all agree on the presence of three male role models (marked blue), three female role models (marked pink) and one gender-neutral one (marked green). The underlined words are the typical features of that particular role model.

Now, let’s have a closer look at the „gender role boxes“ as present in Ned’s recital. What do we find in the male box? Well, there‘s a whole couple of potential aims in the life of a man...

–      the lord of a great holdfast

–      the king’s councillor

–      the builder of castles

–      the sailor

–      the High Septon

plus of course the one that Bran will never fit in anymore

–      the knight

Here’s my suggestion how to match all these professions to the features of the Seven...

Male box

 

Profession	Prominent features	Role Model
the lord	judgement, justice	The Father
the king’s councillor	wisdom, guidance	The Crone
the builder of castles	crafts, labor	The Smith
the sailor	courage, force (warrior, pirate) crafts, labor (merchant) The Unknown (adventurer)	The Warrior The Smith The Stranger
the High Septon	wisdom, guidance	The Crone
the knight	courage, force	The Warrior

So we’ve got covered all three male aspects of God plus one female (the most agendered one) plus one gender-neutral. We could get to the conclusion that all that a man is expected to avoid in life is nurturing (Mother) and beauty/chastity (Maiden).

And here’s the analogous female box...

–      to marry a king

–      to rule his castle

–      to bear children, preferably sons

That’s the whole diversity of female roles effectively boiling down to being a wife and a mother.

Female box

 

Profession	Prominent features	Role Model
the wife and mother	innocence, chastity + nurturing, compassion	The Maiden + The Mother

 

 

If we want to be generous, we might add some aspects of the Father, the Crone and the Smith to this, i.e. judgement, guidance (guiding a household) and crafts (doing needlework), but those a rather secondary ones, I think.

Of course, the female box is far more limited as it fits in with the patriarchal perspective of those times.

However, it’s not social criticism I intend to offer. What did strike me most of all in the books, is the lack of of dominant Crone and Smith role models in women. We have a couple of women breaking out of the roles expected of them, first of all Arya, Asha and Brienne. For me, it’s not the point whether they wish to be men or are behaving like men, but what they are inclined and gifted to do.

Arya feels like a girl, she wishes to be as beautiful and neat as Sansa is, but she doesn’t like female occupations (except for housekeeping, but even this is mostly about calculating). Instead she loves horseriding and swordfighting and this is a genuine inclination in her case.

The same is true for Asha. She feels like a woman, she behaves in a seducing way, but she loves to take on the role model of a warrior.

Brienne is longing for being a „proper woman“, but behaves like a warrior (actually a „swordfighting protector“, yes, but such is the definition of knighthood) as well, because she isn’t blessed with a female appearance, and she likes horseriding and swordfighting because this is what she is eventually good in.

Now, whereas we can find a whole variety of kings, lords, warriors, merchants, scholars, priests etc. and even beaus amongst the male characters in the books, who admittedly have the possibility to fully live out their natural inclinations and talents – all girls or women instead who don’t want to be a wife and mother (Arya: „That’s not me.“) show an inclination to the tasks of a warrior (Arya, Asha, Brienne, even Meera) or a ruler (Cersei, Daenerys), but none of them exhibits a primary interest in reading books, trading or producing something respectively.

That’s what I came across reading ASOIAF and those are the female figures I’m missing in a way. At least in Westeros. In Essos indeed, we meet some female sorcerers, priests, healers, whoremistresses plus the widow of the waterfront who is an outstanding businesswoman, but no female scholar either.

[Philokles]

1 hour ago, Moving Watch said:

Now, whereas we can find a whole variety of kings, lords, warriors, merchants, scholars, priests etc. and even beaus amongst the male characters in the books, who admittedly have the possibility to fully live out their natural inclinations and talents – all girls or women instead who don’t want to be a wife and mother (Arya: „That’s not me.“) show an inclination to the tasks of a warrior (Arya, Asha, Brienne, even Meera) or a ruler (Cersei, Daenerys), but none of them exhibits a primary interest in reading books, trading or producing something respectively.

That’s what I came across reading ASOIAF and those are the female figures I’m missing in a way. At least in Westeros. In Essos indeed, we meet some female sorcerers, priests, healers, whoremistresses plus the widow of the waterfront who is an outstanding businesswoman, but no female scholar either.

Sarella Sand? I think her exception to the rule gets to the heart of the matter actually. The Citadel has a monopoly on scholarship and is restricted to men. On the other hand, there is nothing preventing women from becoming businesswomen (though this is a pursuit very few nobles become actively involved in), the Faith of the Seven has Septas and Silent Sisters, not all warriors have to be knights and laws of succession do allow for female rulers. The only exception I can think of for even a male character of an academic inclination who does not become a Maester is Rodrik the Reader, and he is very much seen as an oddity. So for a woman to become a scholar she would need to pose long-term as a man like Sarella.

[Moving Watch]

I didn't remember Sarella from the books, but I heard it through the grapevine once that Alleras might be Sarella in disguise. If this proves true, that would indeed be at least one female with intellectual interests (although he/she is a brilliant archer too, so the physical aspect is still prominent).

The Septas are governesses, as far as I know, so they basically play the educating part of the mother role, while the Silent Sisters are nurses of sorts - all female role models in contrast to the Septons who preach.

That said, my chief concern isn't the presence or lack of respective career opportunities for women in Westeros, but the overall lack of the respective spheres of interest in the female figures in ASOIAF. We come to know Samwell Tarly as an "unmanly man", but he turns out to be a highly educated book-worm without being a Maester at first. Same for Rodrik Harlaw, the Reader. I've been just missing a female equivalent to this. There's no doubt she wouldn't never have the opportunity to study at the Citadel, but could well be a self-educated person similar to Sam.

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

4 hours ago, Moving Watch said:

Now, whereas we can find a whole variety of kings, lords, warriors, merchants, scholars, priests etc. and even beaus amongst the male characters in the books, who admittedly have the possibility to fully live out their natural inclinations and talents – all girls or women instead who don’t want to be a wife and mother (Arya: „That’s not me.“) show an inclination to the tasks of a warrior (Arya, Asha, Brienne, even Meera) or a ruler (Cersei, Daenerys), but none of them exhibits a primary interest in reading books, trading or producing something respectively.

That’s what I came across reading ASOIAF and those are the female figures I’m missing in a way. At least in Westeros. In Essos indeed, we meet some female sorcerers, priests, healers, whoremistresses plus the widow of the waterfront who is an outstanding businesswoman, but no female scholar either.

In addition to Sarella, I'd like to note that Arya, specifically, does not take so much into the warrior role -- granted, aspects of what (later in life) make a 'warrior' were what she liked most to do as a child -- but her arc is mostly about judgement and that's accentuated in her Braavos arc. She's not interested solely in "swinging the sword", she wants to be able to do it because she takes for herself the role of "passing the sentence". That, while it is not the conventional 'lord' role, takes her closer to the 'father' paradigm.

Also, I don't think that a noble girl would be encouraged to take a more 'scolarly' path; that would make her sort of weird in their eyes and as we've seen repeatedly their society has a low tolerance to difference. It would likely take away from her "marketability" as a potential bride.

In general, there was only one path for noble women, that of the mother and lady of the castle. Among the lower classes we do see women who successfully take more roles: just out of memory there's Masha Heddle the innkeeper as a businesswoman, the lady who painted Brienne's shield as an artist, the seamstress who made Sansa's wedding gown as a successfull craftsperson (she had a workshop with many apprentishes if I remember correctly) and I'm sure there are more.

[Moving Watch]

3 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Also, I don't think that a noble girl would be encouraged to take a more 'scolarly' path; that would make her sort of weird in their eyes and as we've seen repeatedly their society has a low tolerance to difference. It would likely take away from her "marketability" as a potential bride.

But the same is true for noble girls like Arya or Brienne. Neither of them was encouraged to learn swordfighting, and we know how Catelyn and Septa Mordane were badgering the "wayward" tomboy about behaving more "ladylike". Nevertheless they followed their hearts. However we don't even meet a scolarly inclined girl or woman - except of Sarella Sand, if she really is Alleras, that's true enough.

Oh yeah, you're right - I actually forgot the artist in Maidenpool (or was it Duskendale?) and poor Masha Heddle (she reminded me so much of our B&B hostess in Edinburgh ). I'm sure we were to find a much greater variety of spheres of interest as well as professions in lower class women, but as it stands, it's mainly the aristocracy ASOIAF is focussing on.

[Philokles]

4 minutes ago, Moving Watch said:

But the same is true for noble girls like Arya or Brienne. Neither of them was encouraged to learn swordfighting, and we know how Catelyn and Septa Mordane were badgering the "wayward" tomboy about behaving more "ladylike". Nevertheless they followed their hearts. However we don't even meet a scolarly inclined girl or woman - except of Sarella Sand, if she really is Alleras, that's true enough.

Oh yeah, you're right - I actually forgot the artist in Maidenpool (or was it Duskendale?) and poor Masha Heddle (she reminded me so much of our B&B hostess in Edinburgh ). I'm sure we were to find a much greater variety of spheres of interest as well as professions in lower class women, but as it stands, it's mainly the aristocracy ASOIAF is focussing on.

If there is a scholarly inclined woman, it is less likely that we would encounter them in the story, for they would spend a lot of time in their home castle's library. We only meet Rodrik because he is a powerful lord and Sam because his father forces him to leave for the NW. Keep their interests the same but make them women and we'd probably never come across them in the story.